Re: [fonc] Report Card
Making our code public would have been ideal. The problem was that we don't know how the system should look like, and things have gone so many iterations. In a way, I regret that we couldn't do a good job making code public, but in other ways, I'm glad we didn't as we did not have to feel bad about letting people see what we already abandoned. (It did happen with IdSt, for example.) Incidentally, we have a new research note up on our web site. And the "annuall" and final report is very close to be released. (Speaking of new hardware, enchantMOON has gotten to the "pre-order" stage. http://enchantmoon.com/) On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 10:05 PM, David Girle wrote: > I cannot address "report card". I have greatly enjoyed the papers and > respect the aspiration to deliver a system in ~20kLOC by leveraging > algorithms and Moore's law. A system, with size and elegance, that folks > could get their head around. > > Your point on discussion of what has already been published is well made ... > for instance I have not seen a lot of posts on people's experiences with say > Maru. In my own case, I had a lot of learning (as I have no Lisp > experience) and little time (and will not, until my business sells). Also, > I was hesitant to engage on a code base that was likely well behind what was > privately available, particularly for things like sockets/files. Ian was > kind enough to respond to a couple of requests. > > My hope is that VPRI will publish their report and ideally some artifact > code. Having written a small system with an mbed target and dart server, > dart/SVG browser client, it is clear how unpleasant working with the mbed > device in C/C++ is compared to a modern language and accompanying libraries. > The new beaglebone > http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ciX08ysl6LE allows > programming in Javascript, but it would be nice to move beyond that. > > With thanks for what has been achieved and published, > > david > > > On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Yoshiki Ohshima > wrote: >> >> On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Casey Ransberger >> wrote: >> > I wanted to send this message out after the final status report, but >> > since that's indefinitely delayed (keep going!) I'm just going to do it >> > now. >> > >> > Easy question: has keeping this dialogue open been useful to the folks >> > at VPRI, or has it been more of a burden than anything else? >> >> "Burden" is not the word I'd use, but as everybody would agree, the >> S/N ratio has not been too high. I personal think that we, the folks >> at VPRI, need to take a bit of blame for that. We could have written >> more regularly what we are doing to steer the conversation. (But >> maybe using words like "foundation" and "new" in the title of the >> mailing list did not help us to have reasonable conversations^^;) At >> the same time, we did publish research notes and memos now and then, >> but very, very, little about them were brought up (Casey, you did >> mention some of it, I appreciate it!); some questions and discussions >> indicated that some people commented on our work without reading the >> original proposal or annual reports. That was slightly unfortunate. >> >> > I can definitely say that it's been very good for me, in that I learned >> > a hell of a lot reading all of the lovely papers posters cited. It's also >> > been a lot of fun meeting people who were interested in a lot of the same >> > things that I was. >> >> I learned a lot, too. >> >> > VPRI has done something pretty awesome and weird here, in that the >> > dialogue was wide open the whole time. As I gather, it was in the spirit of >> > ARPA. We've had our share of trolls, long-winded posters (raises hand) and >> > just general chaos. >> > >> > I really enjoyed the guy who called us all a bunch of Alan Kay fanboys >> > the other day by the way. That was just priceless. Like we can't think for >> > ourselves! >> > >> > (Alan if I can get an autograph after this I think I'll be set.) >> > >> > So seriously, has this been worthwhile? I'm not just asking VPRI folks, >> > though I'm DEFINITELY asking VPRI folks, I'm also asking everyone else on >> > the list. >> > >> > I learned a lot, huge win for me, and we talked in circles a bunch, some >> > of that was fun. >> > >> > I can also think of a few parts where I felt pretty strongly that it >> > *was* worthwhile. To throw out an example, remember when Dale Schumacher >> > asked pretty poignantly whether or not the original idea behind >> > objects/messages was similar to the actor model? That was like a >> > blockbuster >> > for nerds it was so awesome. That totally rocked. >> > >> > That's me. Okay now talk amongst yourselves go! >> > >> > ? >> > ___ >> > fonc mailing list >> > fonc@vpri.org >> > http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc >> >> >> >> -- >> -- Yoshiki >> ___ >> fonc mailing list >> fonc@vpri.org >> http
Re: [fonc] Report Card
I cannot address "report card". I have greatly enjoyed the papers and respect the aspiration to deliver a system in ~20kLOC by leveraging algorithms and Moore's law. A system, with size and elegance, that folks could get their head around. Your point on discussion of what has already been published is well made ... for instance I have not seen a lot of posts on people's experiences with say Maru. In my own case, I had a lot of learning (as I have no Lisp experience) and little time (and will not, until my business sells). Also, I was hesitant to engage on a code base that was likely well behind what was privately available, particularly for things like sockets/files. Ian was kind enough to respond to a couple of requests. My hope is that VPRI will publish their report and ideally some artifact code. Having written a small system with an mbed target and dart server, dart/SVG browser client, it is clear how unpleasant working with the mbed device in C/C++ is compared to a modern language and accompanying libraries. The new beaglebone http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ciX08ysl6LE allows programming in Javascript, but it would be nice to move beyond that. With thanks for what has been achieved and published, david On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote: > On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Casey Ransberger > wrote: > > I wanted to send this message out after the final status report, but > since that's indefinitely delayed (keep going!) I'm just going to do it now. > > > > Easy question: has keeping this dialogue open been useful to the folks > at VPRI, or has it been more of a burden than anything else? > > "Burden" is not the word I'd use, but as everybody would agree, the > S/N ratio has not been too high. I personal think that we, the folks > at VPRI, need to take a bit of blame for that. We could have written > more regularly what we are doing to steer the conversation. (But > maybe using words like "foundation" and "new" in the title of the > mailing list did not help us to have reasonable conversations^^;) At > the same time, we did publish research notes and memos now and then, > but very, very, little about them were brought up (Casey, you did > mention some of it, I appreciate it!); some questions and discussions > indicated that some people commented on our work without reading the > original proposal or annual reports. That was slightly unfortunate. > > > I can definitely say that it's been very good for me, in that I learned > a hell of a lot reading all of the lovely papers posters cited. It's also > been a lot of fun meeting people who were interested in a lot of the same > things that I was. > > I learned a lot, too. > > > VPRI has done something pretty awesome and weird here, in that the > dialogue was wide open the whole time. As I gather, it was in the spirit of > ARPA. We've had our share of trolls, long-winded posters (raises hand) and > just general chaos. > > > > I really enjoyed the guy who called us all a bunch of Alan Kay fanboys > the other day by the way. That was just priceless. Like we can't think for > ourselves! > > > > (Alan if I can get an autograph after this I think I'll be set.) > > > > So seriously, has this been worthwhile? I'm not just asking VPRI folks, > though I'm DEFINITELY asking VPRI folks, I'm also asking everyone else on > the list. > > > > I learned a lot, huge win for me, and we talked in circles a bunch, some > of that was fun. > > > > I can also think of a few parts where I felt pretty strongly that it > *was* worthwhile. To throw out an example, remember when Dale Schumacher > asked pretty poignantly whether or not the original idea behind > objects/messages was similar to the actor model? That was like a > blockbuster for nerds it was so awesome. That totally rocked. > > > > That's me. Okay now talk amongst yourselves go! > > > > ? > > ___ > > fonc mailing list > > fonc@vpri.org > > http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc > > > > -- > -- Yoshiki > ___ > fonc mailing list > fonc@vpri.org > http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc > ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Report Card
On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 1:51 PM, Casey Ransberger wrote: > I wanted to send this message out after the final status report, but since > that's indefinitely delayed (keep going!) I'm just going to do it now. > > Easy question: has keeping this dialogue open been useful to the folks at > VPRI, or has it been more of a burden than anything else? "Burden" is not the word I'd use, but as everybody would agree, the S/N ratio has not been too high. I personal think that we, the folks at VPRI, need to take a bit of blame for that. We could have written more regularly what we are doing to steer the conversation. (But maybe using words like "foundation" and "new" in the title of the mailing list did not help us to have reasonable conversations^^;) At the same time, we did publish research notes and memos now and then, but very, very, little about them were brought up (Casey, you did mention some of it, I appreciate it!); some questions and discussions indicated that some people commented on our work without reading the original proposal or annual reports. That was slightly unfortunate. > I can definitely say that it's been very good for me, in that I learned a > hell of a lot reading all of the lovely papers posters cited. It's also been > a lot of fun meeting people who were interested in a lot of the same things > that I was. I learned a lot, too. > VPRI has done something pretty awesome and weird here, in that the dialogue > was wide open the whole time. As I gather, it was in the spirit of ARPA. > We've had our share of trolls, long-winded posters (raises hand) and just > general chaos. > > I really enjoyed the guy who called us all a bunch of Alan Kay fanboys the > other day by the way. That was just priceless. Like we can't think for > ourselves! > > (Alan if I can get an autograph after this I think I'll be set.) > > So seriously, has this been worthwhile? I'm not just asking VPRI folks, > though I'm DEFINITELY asking VPRI folks, I'm also asking everyone else on the > list. > > I learned a lot, huge win for me, and we talked in circles a bunch, some of > that was fun. > > I can also think of a few parts where I felt pretty strongly that it *was* > worthwhile. To throw out an example, remember when Dale Schumacher asked > pretty poignantly whether or not the original idea behind objects/messages > was similar to the actor model? That was like a blockbuster for nerds it was > so awesome. That totally rocked. > > That's me. Okay now talk amongst yourselves go! > > ? > ___ > fonc mailing list > fonc@vpri.org > http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc -- -- Yoshiki ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Report Card
I'm a lurker, and an Alan Kay fanboi with vague ambitions of entering the PLT/software engineering sphere of academia one day, and this discussion has been truly fascinating. I'm very glad there are people out there tackling these sorts of conceptual problems, as so much of the industry seems to be so wrapped up in the M$/Unix fanboi wars or milking the enterprise using 30 year old technology, or the general public with the latest social media web bubble. To everyone out there rethinking the basics, please keep up the good work. May we one day get to grip with the arch and start being able to construct actual grand cathedrals rather than shaky pyramids! Edward On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Paul Odle wrote: > Casey, > > I agree with your sentiments here. > > Just a lurker. > > I have learned a lot. > > I was motivated to attempt writing a compiler in OMETA for a pet project > of mine. > > It has all been very interesting and very enjoyable. Even the trolls were > interesting and funny at times. > > Waiting for the final VPRI report. And a binary build of FRANK maybe? > > Thanks VPRI folks and all of you posters! > > Regards, > Paul Odle > > -- > *From:* Casey Ransberger > *To:* Fundamentals of New Computing > *Sent:* Friday, April 19, 2013 3:51 PM > *Subject:* [fonc] Report Card > > I wanted to send this message out after the final status report, but since > that's indefinitely delayed (keep going!) I'm just going to do it now. > > Easy question: has keeping this dialogue open been useful to the folks at > VPRI, or has it been more of a burden than anything else? > > I can definitely say that it's been very good for me, in that I learned a > hell of a lot reading all of the lovely papers posters cited. It's also > been a lot of fun meeting people who were interested in a lot of the same > things that I was. > > I'm not so happy about my own contribution though. Did I do anything at > all to advance the state of the art? Well, no. I mostly just flapped my > lips. It's asymmetrical, I learned way more than I taught. The best I could > do was play sounding board for some of Ian's ideas while dinking around > with Maru's guts. > > BTW if you haven't looked at it, Maru is way cool. > > VPRI has done something pretty awesome and weird here, in that the > dialogue was wide open the whole time. As I gather, it was in the spirit of > ARPA. We've had our share of trolls, long-winded posters (raises hand) and > just general chaos. > > I really enjoyed the guy who called us all a bunch of Alan Kay fanboys the > other day by the way. That was just priceless. Like we can't think for > ourselves! > > (Alan if I can get an autograph after this I think I'll be set.) > > So seriously, has this been worthwhile? I'm not just asking VPRI folks, > though I'm DEFINITELY asking VPRI folks, I'm also asking everyone else on > the list. > > I learned a lot, huge win for me, and we talked in circles a bunch, some > of that was fun. > > I can also think of a few parts where I felt pretty strongly that it *was* > worthwhile. To throw out an example, remember when Dale Schumacher asked > pretty poignantly whether or not the original idea behind objects/messages > was similar to the actor model? That was like a blockbuster for nerds it > was so awesome. That totally rocked. > > That's me. Okay now talk amongst yourselves go! > > ? > ___ > fonc mailing list > fonc@vpri.org > http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc > > > > ___ > fonc mailing list > fonc@vpri.org > http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc > > ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
Re: [fonc] Report Card
Casey, I agree with your sentiments here. Just a lurker. I have learned a lot. I was motivated to attempt writing a compiler in OMETA for a pet project of mine. It has all been very interesting and very enjoyable. Even the trolls were interesting and funny at times. Waiting for the final VPRI report. And a binary build of FRANK maybe? Thanks VPRI folks and all of you posters! Regards, Paul Odle From: Casey Ransberger To: Fundamentals of New Computing Sent: Friday, April 19, 2013 3:51 PM Subject: [fonc] Report Card I wanted to send this message out after the final status report, but since that's indefinitely delayed (keep going!) I'm just going to do it now. Easy question: has keeping this dialogue open been useful to the folks at VPRI, or has it been more of a burden than anything else? I can definitely say that it's been very good for me, in that I learned a hell of a lot reading all of the lovely papers posters cited. It's also been a lot of fun meeting people who were interested in a lot of the same things that I was. I'm not so happy about my own contribution though. Did I do anything at all to advance the state of the art? Well, no. I mostly just flapped my lips. It's asymmetrical, I learned way more than I taught. The best I could do was play sounding board for some of Ian's ideas while dinking around with Maru's guts. BTW if you haven't looked at it, Maru is way cool. VPRI has done something pretty awesome and weird here, in that the dialogue was wide open the whole time. As I gather, it was in the spirit of ARPA. We've had our share of trolls, long-winded posters (raises hand) and just general chaos. I really enjoyed the guy who called us all a bunch of Alan Kay fanboys the other day by the way. That was just priceless. Like we can't think for ourselves! (Alan if I can get an autograph after this I think I'll be set.) So seriously, has this been worthwhile? I'm not just asking VPRI folks, though I'm DEFINITELY asking VPRI folks, I'm also asking everyone else on the list. I learned a lot, huge win for me, and we talked in circles a bunch, some of that was fun. I can also think of a few parts where I felt pretty strongly that it *was* worthwhile. To throw out an example, remember when Dale Schumacher asked pretty poignantly whether or not the original idea behind objects/messages was similar to the actor model? That was like a blockbuster for nerds it was so awesome. That totally rocked. That's me. Okay now talk amongst yourselves go! ? ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
[fonc] Report Card
I wanted to send this message out after the final status report, but since that's indefinitely delayed (keep going!) I'm just going to do it now. Easy question: has keeping this dialogue open been useful to the folks at VPRI, or has it been more of a burden than anything else? I can definitely say that it's been very good for me, in that I learned a hell of a lot reading all of the lovely papers posters cited. It's also been a lot of fun meeting people who were interested in a lot of the same things that I was. I'm not so happy about my own contribution though. Did I do anything at all to advance the state of the art? Well, no. I mostly just flapped my lips. It's asymmetrical, I learned way more than I taught. The best I could do was play sounding board for some of Ian's ideas while dinking around with Maru's guts. BTW if you haven't looked at it, Maru is way cool. VPRI has done something pretty awesome and weird here, in that the dialogue was wide open the whole time. As I gather, it was in the spirit of ARPA. We've had our share of trolls, long-winded posters (raises hand) and just general chaos. I really enjoyed the guy who called us all a bunch of Alan Kay fanboys the other day by the way. That was just priceless. Like we can't think for ourselves! (Alan if I can get an autograph after this I think I'll be set.) So seriously, has this been worthwhile? I'm not just asking VPRI folks, though I'm DEFINITELY asking VPRI folks, I'm also asking everyone else on the list. I learned a lot, huge win for me, and we talked in circles a bunch, some of that was fun. I can also think of a few parts where I felt pretty strongly that it *was* worthwhile. To throw out an example, remember when Dale Schumacher asked pretty poignantly whether or not the original idea behind objects/messages was similar to the actor model? That was like a blockbuster for nerds it was so awesome. That totally rocked. That's me. Okay now talk amongst yourselves go! ? ___ fonc mailing list fonc@vpri.org http://vpri.org/mailman/listinfo/fonc
