Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 9:34 PM, Warren Young  wrote:
> 
> maybe full SMTP support in Fossil wouldn’t be justified, and it would require 
> integration with a local MTA instead, to push the burden off to the other 
> component.  That wouldn’t be very Fossil, but it would be pragmatic.

On second thought, that’s not true.  Fossil currently does not try to implement 
the client or server sides of TLS.  It delegates to OpenSSL for the former and 
to an HTTPS proxy for the latter.

This may be another area where Fossil is right to delegate.
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 9:05 PM, Shal Farley wrote:
> 
> On 2018-06-14 1:47 PM, Warren Young wrote:
> 
>> Would you rather see drh spending time fighting spam or writing useful 
>> software?

> I think that's the best reason for outsourcing the mailing list problem

Agreed, which is why I’ve also been on the “keep the mailing list” side of the 
argument: the difficulty in implementing SMTP and its raft of concomitant 
standards.

There are pros and cons on both sides, and the community has listed several of 
each.

drh has his poll results now, so I think it’s now time to start winding these 
threads down and wait to see how he chooses to spend his time.

> I don't think that choice precludes work on building something integrated 
> with fossil that may be interesting and useful for drh and for us.

Also agreed.  In that case, then maybe full SMTP support in Fossil wouldn’t be 
justified, and it would require integration with a local MTA instead, to push 
the burden off to the other component.  That wouldn’t be very Fossil, but it 
would be pragmatic.

> Someone else here suggested already that what works best as a component of 
> fossil in support of a development team might not be the same solution as 
> what works best for an open community of users and developers asking and 
> answering questions.

That was me.  Developer list != user list.  Different technologies for each 
within a single project are sometimes justified.

> Yes, I'm a mailing-list advocate, and hence a dinosaur.

It’s one thing to label yourself such, and quite another for others to throw 
that label at you as an accusation.  Ahem. :)

(Speaking as one who’s been using the Internet since shortly after bang paths 
went out of style.)
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Shal Farley]

On 2018-06-14 1:47 PM, Warren Young wrote:

I’m not aware of any mailing list that doesn’t require a password, if only via 
some outer SSO provider.  Such a thing would be a spammer’s paradise, if it 
existed.
In Groups.io  creating and using a password is 
optional, because some users expect logging into a web site to work that 
way. The other method is having the site email you a login link whenever 
you need a new session.



The closest to your usability ideal that I’ve seen is automatic password resets 
via email, which is itself a vulnerability, since it means anyone who can 
access your email account is able to take over any such service associated with 
that email account.
That is a valid criticism of Groups.io's technique. On the other hand, 
it is a mailing list service - in some regards an extension of your 
email service. Just don't post your most guarded secrets to the list.



Would you rather see drh spending time fighting spam or writing useful software?
I think that's the best reason for outsourcing the mailing list problem, 
and the reason I spoke up here in the first place. That and the deep 
development effort required and ongoing maintenance to keep up with the 
changing deliverability landscape as mailbox providers evolve their 
anti-abuse defenses.


As I said in my first, I don't think that choice precludes work on 
building something integrated with fossil that may be interesting and 
useful for drh and for us. Someone else here suggested already that what 
works best as a component of fossil in support of a development team 
might not be the same solution as what works best for an open community 
of users and developers asking and answering questions.


Yes, I'm a mailing-list advocate, and hence a dinosaur. Which, on /this/ 
list in particular, is about the most hilarious insult I've seen in 
quite some time.


Shal

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Re: [fossil-users] Make Tech Notes work like a Lab Notebook

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 7:02 PM, Scott Doctor  wrote:
> 
> Looking through my current project fossil UI, it seems that instead of adding 
> a forum module, what about a modification to the Tech Notes module.

In the past, I’ve suggested that a forum could be constructed from a 
combination of the current ticket and wiki mechanisms.  The pieces are already 
all there.

The hard parts I can see from this distance are:

1. Threading, which is strictly optional, but I wnt it.

2. Email integration, which we have many uses for once it’s available, so the 
cost amortizes.

I was going to say add “Quoting,” but it appears that Fossil’s Markdown 
processor already handles nested block quotes.  Neat!

> What I need is a way to simply link and group various tech notes, which may 
> span hundreds of notes over long periods of time.

Are you maybe viewing the future through the past’s lens?  If you’d had a forum 
feature from the start, would you have written the top-level tech notes as 
posts and the subordinate ones as replies, possibly with [links] back to the 
relevant checkin ID?

This would work like the “talk” page on MediaWikis, where the stream of ideas 
over time is visible, unlike on the main article page, where you normally only 
see the latest edition of the article.

> Need a simple way to link a tech note to one or more tickets and other tech 
> notes

Fossil’s existing artifact reference mechanism should work just fine for this.  
That’s one of the primary advantages of having this inside Fossil instead of 
integrating some third-party forum system.

The feature should also allow creation of new forum threads from checkins, etc. 
 I called it “reply to checkin” in a previous message.

> I am thinking if a problem re-surfaces in the future, a search or browse can 
> find and resurrect a thread to help with discussion and documentation about a 
> potential solution, or to simply document results of experiments.

I do this today with comments in the code, and I believe it would be less 
discoverable to have such commentary in the repository timeline instead.  (Code 
tells what, comment tells why.)

But that doesn’t argue against any of the features being discussed, just 
against this one use of the proposed features.

> Need a simple way to add links within the body of a tech note to reference 
> other tech notes and tickets referenced in the text (hyperlinks).

In both Markdown and Wiki syntax, bracket links [abcd1234] work today.

If you want explanatory text instead of a hexbarf link, you can do it in 
Markdown by [specifying the viewing verb in the URL](/info/abcd1234).  The 
equivalent in wiki syntax should be clear.

I’ll admit that that is not terribly discoverable, but I’m struggling to come 
up with a syntax that wouldn’t be ambiguous.  The closest I’ve come is 
[this]([abcd1234]) but that’s hardly discoverable.  It’d have to be documented.

> Also a simple way to add a link in the body text to specific files in the 
> repository.

That’s already available with the embedded documentation feature:

For more information, see [the source code](/doc/trunk/src/foo.c).

In some cases, you might prefer a /file URL instead.  Say “fossil help /file” 
for more info.  

If you did not know that that form of help command was even possible, say 
“fossil help --www” to be further surprised. :)

> I think a few modifications to the tech notes module would make it usable 
> like a lab notebook. I can make notes about whatever, have multiple threads 
> of unrelated issues, and be able to manipulate linkages later so that I can 
> scavenge and organize my notes when I write a paper or documentation about my 
> project. This would be along the lines of what a writer would do using 
> software such as scrivener.

That sounds a lot like a forum feature to me.  It happens to be now-you talking 
to future-you, but it’s the same mechanism.
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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil (dumb idea for pull requests)

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 5:50 PM, John P. Rouillard wrote:
> 
> In message <20180614213758.ga7...@britannica.bec.de>,
> Joerg Sonnenberger writes:
>> 
>> 
>> How do I develop a patch locally and send it to someone for review?
> 
> Would some combination of:
> 
>  bundle
> 
> published via
> 
>  uv mechanism

Back when I proposed the feature set that became bundles, I proposed that it 
include a way for the outside contributor to create a ticket from a bundle, 
which would be pushed to the remote repository for disposition by someone with 
a commit bit.

That never happened, but now I think it’s another good reason for Fossil to 
have a forum feature.  Someone with a forum login on a repository but lacking a 
commit bit could say

$ fossil bundle push --branch my-new-feature

and have their un-sync’d my-new-feature branch bundled and pushed to a 
sub-forum dedicated to accepting unsolicited outside contributions.

Effectively, the new “push” verb is “fossil bundle export && send to 
contribution sub-forum,” with the local Fossil instance transferring it 
directly to the remote just as with the normal push feature.

Someone with a commit bit could then do a one-click integration of the bundle 
branch from the forum UI, presumably after testing it locally on their machine.

There are several advantages to doing it through Fossil UI instead of the 
current mechanism:

1. fossil bundle import && test && fossil bundle import --publish && send email 
is more involved than fossil up my-new-feature && test && click “Integrate” in 
Fossil UI.

2. Like closing a ticket combined merging a branch with --integrate, clicking 
that button would auto-close both the forum thread and the branch.

3. By integrating it so tightly, the committer doesn’t need to explicitly 
involve the local filesystem at all.  The local Fossil instance gets a copy of 
the bundled branch with the next sync past the outside contributor’s push, and 
the integrate happens using that same contributed bundle.  There’s no need to 
rm ~/Downloads/my-new-feature.bundle after integrating the bundle, nor the 
bulky email containing it.

4. Now we’d have pull requests to shut the Git fans up, except that they’d 
actually be push requests. :)
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 5:48 PM, bch  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 9:30 AM JH  wrote:
> > One way to implement that is to incorporate SMTP into Fossil directly. 
> 
> Attractive as that may sound, do we really want to be another (near) instance 
> of Zawinski’s Law?

I always had the sense that that “law” was meant to be read with a reluctant 
sigh.  If Fossil knuckles under to whatever Leviathan is enforcing this 
particular law, we should reluctantly sigh as well, particularly the 
unfortunate soul(s) who end up implementing the thing.

Yeah, that’s right, I’m on both sides of this issue.  Cope. :)
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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Kevin Walzer]

On 6/14/18 4:59 PM, Thomas wrote:
Pull requests are not supported, hence the software can't be used for 
community driven open source. 


The Tcl/Tk project uses Fossil, and it's a rather large project with a 
decent-sized community:


http://core.tcl.tk/tcl/wiki?name=Index

http://core.tcl.tk/tk/timeline?y=ci

Pull requests are only one way to handle patches. A developer can fork 
Tcl or Tk into a branch, change it, test it, and then merge it back into 
the main line of development. That works well if you are one of the 
developers with commit access, which isn't too hard to get. If you don't 
have a commit bit, well, you can still send a patch to one of the core 
maintainers such as myself: that method has worked well since the early 
1990s and is still valid. I'm happy to commit a patch that improves some 
aspect of Tk.


A lot of what we're seeing here is a generational dispute about 
development methodologies: greybeards like myself are fine with patches 
and mailing lists, while younger folks prefer Github, pull requests, and 
forums. I've dabbled a bit with Github, send a few pull requests and 
managed a couple of projects there, but I'm not really sold on it; 
mainly I prefer Fossil for my own projects as well as for Tcl/Tk. Fossil 
is absolutely beautiful for smaller projects such as my own, which 
allows me to self-host Fossil on a shared GoDaddy server with a single 
binary installation.


--Kevin

--
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com

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[fossil-users] Make Tech Notes work like a Lab Notebook

[Scott Doctor]

Looking through my current project fossil UI, it seems that 
instead of adding a forum module, what about a modification to 
the Tech Notes module. What I need is a way to simply link and 
group various tech notes, which may span hundreds of notes over 
long periods of time.


I am thinking like the way emails thread via topic. Having a 
REPLY type button on a tech note which would create a new tech 
note but that is linked to the parent note creating a tree of 
linkages that can be searched, browsed, and adjusted.


Need a simple way to link a tech note to one or more tickets and 
other tech notes (since a note may address more than one issue). 
I am thinking if a problem re-surfaces in the future, a search 
or browse can find and resurrect a thread to help with 
discussion and documentation about a potential solution, or to 
simply document results of experiments. Need a simple way to add 
links within the body of a tech note to reference other tech 
notes and tickets referenced in the text (hyperlinks). Also a 
simple way to add a link in the body text to specific files in 
the repository. This may be a data file from an experiment or 
such. When it comes time to write documentation about the 
project, all tech notes about a specific issue can then be 
searched, collected, and organized to reference when writing the 
documentation and such.


My projects involve more than just writing code (I do research). 
I think a few modifications to the tech notes module would make 
it usable like a lab notebook. I can make notes about whatever, 
have multiple threads of unrelated issues, and be able to 
manipulate linkages later so that I can scavenge and organize my 
notes when I write a paper or documentation about my project. 
This would be along the lines of what a writer would do using 
software such as scrivener.


https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener/overview

My projects may go on for years  and often pivot, morph and get 
set aside and delayed for extended periods of time. My memory of 
issues from years ago tends to fade. This would help refresh my 
memory later when needed.


The concepts in Fossil are similar to what a writer would do 
when researching a book. Many items get written down, some not 
used, some set aside, some important. But at a later date it is 
necessary to collect it together and organize. Kind of like the 
old fashion index card method of writing a research paper (back 
in the stone age when cursive writing was taught in schools and 
libraries had physical card catalogs).



--

-
Scott Doctor
sc...@scottdoctor.com
-

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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

On 14/06/18 18:07, Thomas wrote:
> On 2018-06-14 23:19, Warren Young wrote:
>> I just checked, and for the flight I’ll be on, it’ll cost me about
>> 1/10 the monthly cost of my residential Internet service, per
>> device.  If I want to use my phone, tablet, and laptop, that’s 3/10
>> my monthly cost for a few hours of terrible service.
>
> That means again that it's probably better not to answer any support
> requests from this mailing list, which you will have downloaded eons
> ago already nonetheless (since you got no internet access). Your
> replies might be terribly outdated once you roll in to the nearest
> free wifi.
>
> I actually find it quite amusing that some people seem to be so
> personally involved in their favour of a mailing list over a forum,
> while this discussion has ceased for pretty much any other software
> product already, and many people even getting very personal, including
> insults.

For me what is amusing  is that people thinks that their reality defines
the reality of everyone else. In several countries in Latin America,
Asia and Africa (yes they're still a different part of the world in the
XXI century, despite of the efforts of "colonizers" to deny their
individuality since eons) there is not online all time and answering an
email from 3 days ago is not like being disconnected from centuries,
because three days still felt like 3 days and not like centuries in
those places.

Anything that allows offline participation is really appreciated over
the so called "Global South". I have been using Discourse Forum, with
mail suscription and mailing lists and I can see the advantages of the
first for a more peripheral participation and mailing list in
communities where I want to be more involved.

Just my 2 pesos, from another perspective in another place of the world.

Cheers,

Offray

Cheers,

Offray

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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-15 00:32, Chad Perrin wrote:

Pull requests are not supported, hence the software can't be used for
community driven open source.


The pull request interface on GitHub is a feature of GitHub, not of Git.
While it would be nice to have a similar feature built into the Fossil
web UI, doing it the same way would require having a centralized website
on which to implement it.  Something similar could theoretically be
supported in Fossil itself, but would not be identical to the way
GitHub's pull request feature works.


Yes, sorry for the ambiguity. When people talk about git they 
automatically mean github.


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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Chad Perrin]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 09:59:12PM +0100, Thomas wrote:
> 
> Pull requests are not supported, hence the software can't be used for 
> community driven open source.

The pull request interface on GitHub is a feature of GitHub, not of Git.
While it would be nice to have a similar feature built into the Fossil
web UI, doing it the same way would require having a centralized website
on which to implement it.  Something similar could theoretically be
supported in Fossil itself, but would not be identical to the way
GitHub's pull request feature works.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Chad Perrin]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 11:04:18PM +0100, Thomas wrote:
> 
> I forgot to mention that self-registration is something that comes along 
> the same line. I haven't managed to get this working with Fossil yet either.
> 
> As far as I can see until now you got to create an account for every 
> contributor yourself.

There's a checkbox setting on the admin "Access" page that reads as
follows:

[ ] Allow users to register themselves

Allow users to register themselves through the HTTP UI. The
registration form always requires filling in a CAPTCHA (auto-captcha
setting is ignored). Still, bear in mind that anyone can register
under any user name. This option is useful for public projects where
you do not want everyone in any ticket discussion to be named
"Anonymous".

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil (dumb idea for pull requests)

[John P. Rouillard]

Hi all:

In message <20180614213758.ga7...@britannica.bec.de>,
Joerg Sonnenberger writes:
>On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 04:51:08PM -0400, Ron W wrote:
>> In another forum I follow,a commented claims that Fossil is designed for
>> "cathedral development" not "bazaar development", so would be of little
>> interest to anyone. Unfortunately, the poster did not elaborate on why.
>> 
>> Except maybe possible issues scaling to a large number of contributors, I
>> don't see how Fossil is less suitable for  "bazaar development" than git or
>> Hg.
>
>How do I develop a patch locally and send it to someone for review? The
>pull request model is kind of stupid and works only for a centralized
>system (the irony...), but integration of something like "patchbomb" or
>even just bundles is quite handy for this.

Would some combination of:

  bundle

published via

  uv mechanism

and announced via some url on the upstream fossil (e.g. fossil/pull)
work? The pull requests could be manipulated by the primary developers
similar to how wiki pages can be moderated.

So my thought is:

  fossil bundle export --publish implement_pull_method.bundle --branch pull

which because of the --publish does a:

  fossil uv add implement_pull_method.bundle

which then automatically sends a post to:

  https://www.fossil-scm.org/pull

user: rou...@example.com
url: https://my.fossil.repo/fossil/uv/implement_pull_method
description: {derived from last checkin message maybe}

then doing a get on:

   https://www.fossil-scm.org/pull

(or running fossil pull list ) for somebody logged in and allowed to
see pull requests can run:

  fossil bundle import https://my.fossil.repo/fossil/uv/implement_pull_method

test, publish, purge etc

Verbs like:

  fossil pull list - list name/owner/artfact_id ... for all pull requests
  fossil pull allow - make available for sync (c.f. moderator approval of wiki)
  fossil pull delete artifact_id - delete pull request
  fossil pull describe artifact_id - show description/url and other info

to round out management of the pull request.

Thoughts?

--
-- rouilj
John Rouillard
===
My employers don't acknowledge my existence much less my opinions.
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[bch]

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 9:30 AM JH  wrote:

> On 06/13/2018 08:11 AM, Warren Young wrote:
> > On Jun 13, 2018, at 8:05 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> >> My current tthinking is to use a hybrid approach where subscribers get
> >> emails just like ordinary mailing lists, but posting and replying is
> >> via web-form only.
> > If you do this atop Fossil, then you end up inches away from being able
> to provide an oft-wanted feature: email notifications on checkins, wiki
> article changes, and other Fossil events.
> One way to implement that is to incorporate SMTP into Fossil directly.
> Recently, I started working on that using my smtp.h and smtp.c:
>

Attractive as that may sound, do we really want to be another (near)
instance of Zawinski’s Law?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Zawinski?wprov=sfti1




> https://www.somnisoft.com/smtp-client/artifact/f820e6e88d9c3948
> https://www.somnisoft.com/smtp-client/artifact/12ee754f88640cb1
> https://www.somnisoft.com/smtp-client
>
> Git has a 'git-send-email' command so I add a 'fossil email' command as
> a starting point.
>
> https://git-scm.com/docs/git-send-email
>
> I can also add an 'Email Settings' link in the fossil admin settings
> menu which would allow the admin to set the mail server settings. I can
> provide diff for that later this week, if the fossil devs think this is
> heading in the right direction.
>
> Does this sound like a good idea for Fossil?
>
> -James
> ___
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>
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[fossil-users] Mailing list or forum - summary

[Thomas]

I'll try to get some summary together. Let's see how I can perform to 
find all the evidence given so far for a mailing list. As it currently 
is a mailing list I got all those texts in my inbox and extracted them 
from there :)


Please help me if I overlooked some.

Those are some of the statements made by "pro mailing list" members so far:

- Yes, the world is going to hell in our lifetime.
- At this rate, I suggest we start using reddit more, it's at least more
diverse than a single stand alone forum.
- OK, I guess that makes it pretty clear that your knowledge of mail
handling is limited.
- Can you please just stop trolling? Everyone else, please ignore
"Thomas".

q.e.d.

:)
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 23:19, Warren Young wrote:

I just checked, and for the flight I’ll be on, it’ll cost me about 1/10 the 
monthly cost of my residential Internet service, per device.  If I want to use 
my phone, tablet, and laptop, that’s 3/10 my monthly cost for a few hours of 
terrible service.


That means again that it's probably better not to answer any support 
requests from this mailing list, which you will have downloaded eons ago 
already nonetheless (since you got no internet access). Your replies 
might be terribly outdated once you roll in to the nearest free wifi.


I actually find it quite amusing that some people seem to be so 
personally involved in their favour of a mailing list over a forum, 
while this discussion has ceased for pretty much any other software 
product already, and many people even getting very personal, including 
insults.

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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 23:19, Joerg Sonnenberger wrote:

Can you please just stop trolling? Everyone else, please ignore
"Thomas".


I wasn't aware that communism has taken over Germany or the US yet.

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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 23:09, Warren Young wrote:

On Jun 14, 2018, at 4:04 PM, Thomas  wrote:

As far as I can see until now you got to create an account for every 
contributor yourself.


I think that’s a feature in a web service that, currently, has no way to do 
email verification.  Else, spammers again.

One presumes that if Fossil gets a forum feature with email gatewaying, 
*optional* self-registration will come along with it.

Many Fossil instance admins will want to turn such a feature off, since 
invite-only is how they want it in the first place.


That's the way I see it too. Fossil has many issues that prevent it from 
being used for first-time users, or git users. Once they start off 
the're struggling to get it working they expect it to.


That's not because the software is bad (the opposite is the case, in my 
opinion it's much better than most of the other version control systems) 
but it lacks what standard users require.


It claims to be an all-in-one solution but doesn't allow 
self-registration and doesn't support pull requests -> That makes it a 
no-go for open-source projects. Most news users expect this to be a 
"that goes without saying".


It claims to be easy to install and set up but doesn't come with a 
pre-defined exclusion list -> Leaving newbies with megabytes of useless 
and even private data in their fresh repositories they can't get rid of 
easily again. I remember that it took me over 80 hours to understand the 
principles and finally get rid of all the crap in the repository left 
after the first few check-ins.


There's not even a single source of information that would tell you how 
to permanently delete files that were never meant to be in the 
repository. That's a no-go for open-source projects.


Then you get this, just a few minutes ago:
"Can you please just stop trolling? Everyone else, please ignore
"Thomas".

:-(
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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 23:09, Warren Young wrote:

On Jun 14, 2018, at 4:04 PM, Thomas  wrote:

As far as I can see until now you got to create an account for every 
contributor yourself.


I think that’s a feature in a web service that, currently, has no way to do 
email verification.  Else, spammers again.

One presumes that if Fossil gets a forum feature with email gatewaying, 
*optional* self-registration will come along with it.

Many Fossil instance admins will want to turn such a feature off, since 
invite-only is how they want it in the first place.


That's the way I see it too. Fossil has many issues that prevent it from 
being used for first-time users, or git users. Once they start off 
the're struggling to get it working they expect it to.


That's not because the software is bad (the opposite is the case, in my 
opinion it's much better than most of the other version control systems) 
but it lacks what standard users require.


It claims to be an all-in-one solution but doesn't allow 
self-registration and doesn't support pull requests -> That makes it a 
no-go for open-source projects. Most news users expect this to be a 
"that goes without saying".


It claims to be easy to install and set up but doesn't come with a 
pre-defined exclusion list -> Leaving newbies with megabytes of useless 
and even private data in their fresh repositories they can't get rid of 
easily again. I remember that it took me over 80 hours to understand the 
principle and finally get rid of all the crap in the repository left 
after the first few check-ins.


There's not even a single source of information that would tell you how 
to permanently delete files that were never meant to be in the 
repository. That's a no-go for open-source projects.


Then you get this, just a minute ago:
"Can you please just stop trolling? Everyone else, please ignore
"Thomas".

;-(
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 3:36 PM, Thomas  wrote:
> 
> On 2018-06-14 22:21, Warren Young wrote:
>> I expect to have no Internet access in the plane I will be aboard shortly.
> 
> I'm not aware of any airline that doesn't provide internet access on 
> long-haul flights. Is there still one left?

I just checked, and for the flight I’ll be on, it’ll cost me about 1/10 the 
monthly cost of my residential Internet service, per device.  If I want to use 
my phone, tablet, and laptop, that’s 3/10 my monthly cost for a few hours of 
terrible service.

…which you apparently think I should pay just so the software I use doesn’t 
have to deal with the offline access case.

You’re very generous with the contents of my wallet.

While on last week’s off-network trip, I tallied the number of apps on my 
tablet that were useless without an Internet connection.  It was about 75% 
before I gave up in disgust.

I decided to do that tally after being unable to move a document from one app 
to the another on the same tablet, because the receiving app only offered a 
“send it to a datacenter in Washington state” import option.

This is not progress.
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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 10:44:24PM +0100, Thomas wrote:
> On 2018-06-14 22:37, Joerg Sonnenberger wrote:
> > How do I develop a patch locally and send it to someone for review? The
> > pull request model is kind of stupid and works only for a centralized
> > system (the irony...), but integration of something like "patchbomb" or
> > even just bundles is quite handy for this.
> 
> The pull request is exactly this. Sending a patch via mail or mailing list
> like the dinosaurs did is not going to make it more appealing.

Can you please just stop trolling? Everyone else, please ignore
"Thomas".

Thanks.

Joerg
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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 4:04 PM, Thomas  wrote:
> As far as I can see until now you got to create an account for every 
> contributor yourself.

I think that’s a feature in a web service that, currently, has no way to do 
email verification.  Else, spammers again.

One presumes that if Fossil gets a forum feature with email gatewaying, 
*optional* self-registration will come along with it.

Many Fossil instance admins will want to turn such a feature off, since 
invite-only is how they want it in the first place.
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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 21:59, Thomas wrote:

On 2018-06-14 21:51, Ron W wrote:

In another forum I follow,a commented claims that Fossil is designed for
"cathedral development" not "bazaar development", so would be of little
interest to anyone. Unfortunately, the poster did not elaborate on why.

Except maybe possible issues scaling to a large number of contributors, I
don't see how Fossil is less suitable for  "bazaar development" than 
git or

Hg.

Thoughts?


Pull requests are not supported, hence the software can't be used for 
community driven open source.


I forgot to mention that self-registration is something that comes along 
the same line. I haven't managed to get this working with Fossil yet either.


As far as I can see until now you got to create an account for every 
contributor yourself.

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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

In that case I'm sorry that your email replies to a mailing list will be 
outdated by the time you'll reach civilisation again.


Better don't reply then.


On 2018-06-14 22:38, Roy Keene wrote:

Yes.  Quite a lot.

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018, Thomas wrote:


On 2018-06-14 22:21, Warren Young wrote:
I expect to have no Internet access in the plane I will be aboard 
shortly.


I'm not aware of any airline that doesn't provide internet access on 
long-haul flights. Is there still one left?

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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 22:37, Joerg Sonnenberger wrote:

How do I develop a patch locally and send it to someone for review? The
pull request model is kind of stupid and works only for a centralized
system (the irony...), but integration of something like "patchbomb" or
even just bundles is quite handy for this.


The pull request is exactly this. Sending a patch via mail or mailing 
list like the dinosaurs did is not going to make it more appealing.


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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Roy Keene]

Yes.  Quite a lot.

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018, Thomas wrote:


On 2018-06-14 22:21, Warren Young wrote:

I expect to have no Internet access in the plane I will be aboard shortly.


I'm not aware of any airline that doesn't provide internet access on 
long-haul flights. Is there still one left?

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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 04:51:08PM -0400, Ron W wrote:
> In another forum I follow,a commented claims that Fossil is designed for
> "cathedral development" not "bazaar development", so would be of little
> interest to anyone. Unfortunately, the poster did not elaborate on why.
> 
> Except maybe possible issues scaling to a large number of contributors, I
> don't see how Fossil is less suitable for  "bazaar development" than git or
> Hg.
> 
> Thoughts?

How do I develop a patch locally and send it to someone for review? The
pull request model is kind of stupid and works only for a centralized
system (the irony...), but integration of something like "patchbomb" or
even just bundles is quite handy for this.

Joerg
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 22:21, Warren Young wrote:

I expect to have no Internet access in the plane I will be aboard shortly.


I'm not aware of any airline that doesn't provide internet access on 
long-haul flights. Is there still one left?

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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 22:21, Warren Young wrote:

What of the other direction?  People like Jörg are more likely to be answering 
questions than asking them.  Why not write answers while offline, then sync the 
answers when back on-network?  Email lists, Usenet, and my proposed Fossil 
Forum Feature allow this.  Web forums generally do not.


Yeah, I've seen this before.

- 1) Can you help me please?
- 1) Ah, sorry, solved it myself.
- 2) Reply: you should do xy...

:-)

When you're offline, you really shouldn't touch any conversation.

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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 3:10 PM, Thomas  wrote:
> 
> On 2018-06-14 21:47, Joerg Sonnenberger wrote:
>> I've had to deal with my share of fori. Frankly, they all suck for power
>> users, often badly. While mailing lists do tend to be a bit more
>> annoying than newsgroups, they nevertheless share the majority of
>> advantages. Offline access, decent filtering etc. Heck, a lot of fori
>> programs still hasn't even managed good threading.
> 
> Another example of the past. We're online 24/7 nowadays. Offline access is 
> not required anymore.

I was offline for about 3 days solid, less than a week ago.  No Internet access 
at all, despite having a charged mobile phone with me at the time.

I have made Fossil repo commits from inside an RV, miles from the nearest wifi.

I expect to have no Internet access in the plane I will be aboard shortly.

> In case you really need some help while offline, I cannot imagine how you'd 
> be able to get a request for help out better via mail than dropping off a 
> forum post when you're offline.

What of the other direction?  People like Jörg are more likely to be answering 
questions than asking them.  Why not write answers while offline, then sync the 
answers when back on-network?  Email lists, Usenet, and my proposed Fossil 
Forum Feature allow this.  Web forums generally do not.
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Roy Keene]

http://rkeene.org/viewer/tmp/email.png.htm

:-)

And yes, this is my primary MUA -- not something I setup to reply to this 
email.


On Thu, 14 Jun 2018, Thomas wrote:


On 2018-06-14 20:51, John Long wrote:

A decent email client can run on a terminal, over ssh or telnet, etc.
and can handle all sorts of filtering and searching. Most mailing lists


I just checked the calendar. It's the 21st century here. Not sure how many 
terminals, telnets or SSH sessions average users got open but I reckon that a 
good guess of less than a promille might be more precise than you may 
imagine...



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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Ron W  wrote:
> 
> In another forum I follow,a commented claims that Fossil is designed for 
> "cathedral development" not "bazaar development”

That’s the official stance, not some rand-o’s opinion:

   https://fossil-scm.org/index.html/doc/trunk/www/fossil-v-git.wiki

> so would be of little interest to anyone

The conclusion does not follow from the premise, else most software would never 
be written, which we can see from the fact that most software is not written in 
a bazaar style.

The last time I saw stats on this, it was ~95% written for internal purposes of 
some sort, with only 5% published.  That was before app stores and the 
explosion of open source, however.

On the other hand, it was also before proprietary web apps, which are often 
built cathedral-style.

> Unfortunately, the poster did not elaborate on why.

Fossil wants contributors to have logins on the repository, not to be unknown 
outsiders.  That in turn suggests an invite-only style of development, which 
means that a contributor must earn some amount of trust before being given a 
login.  

The above-linked page also talks about contributor agreements and license 
implications, which I don’t buy as necessary consequences of the Fossil user 
model, but these concepts are frequent companions, to be sure.

You see this in Fossil’s patch and bundle mechanisms, which are much more 
rarely used than direct commits.  In my own public projects, I take patches and 
bundles as letters of introduction, which I use in deciding whether to offer 
someone a login on the repository.

Contrast Git, where the fork-and-PR model is very common, and only the closest 
inner circle may have direct commit rights on the official repository.  That’s 
bazaar-style.

> Except maybe possible issues scaling to a large number of contributors, I 
> don't see how Fossil is less suitable for  "bazaar development" than git or 
> Hg.

I think it’s an uninteresting argument for most projects, where 90+% of the 
code is going to be written by the inner circle anyway, no matter how you 
structure it, so it doesn’t matter if you call it cathedral-style or something 
else.  Bazaar style development is only common on projects popular with 
developers, where many skilled people are likely to make valuable contributions.

Even then, it’s not a necessary pairing, as we can see with SQLite itself, 
where commits are typically allowed only by a very small number.

The Fossil project is more open than SQLite, but even so, only 27% of commits 
come from anonymous or “other,” with only two people having double-digit 
percentage commit rates.  That’s cathedral-style, right there.
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 21:47, Joerg Sonnenberger wrote:

I've had to deal with my share of fori. Frankly, they all suck for power
users, often badly. While mailing lists do tend to be a bit more
annoying than newsgroups, they nevertheless share the majority of
advantages. Offline access, decent filtering etc. Heck, a lot of fori
programs still hasn't even managed good threading.


Another example of the past. We're online 24/7 nowadays. Offline access 
is not required anymore.


In case you really need some help while offline, I cannot imagine how 
you'd be able to get a request for help out better via mail than 
dropping off a forum post when you're offline. - Ouch! :-(

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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Stephan Beal]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 10:51 PM Ron W  wrote:

> In another forum I follow,a commented claims that Fossil is designed for
> "cathedral development" not "bazaar development", so would be of little
> interest to anyone. Unfortunately, the poster did not elaborate on why.
>

Maybe he's just young and full of beans.

Maybe he's equating "bazaar" with one of its more extreme implementations,
"github". Or maybe he's not aware of the scope of the term "bazaar", which,
n this context, predates all DVCSs that i can find record of via:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_version_control#History

That term was already in use by the time ESR popularized it[^1], at a time
when CVS (centrally administered, like Fossil) was still king.

[1] = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar

-- 
- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf
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Re: [fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 21:51, Ron W wrote:

In another forum I follow,a commented claims that Fossil is designed for
"cathedral development" not "bazaar development", so would be of little
interest to anyone. Unfortunately, the poster did not elaborate on why.

Except maybe possible issues scaling to a large number of contributors, I
don't see how Fossil is less suitable for  "bazaar development" than git or
Hg.

Thoughts?


Pull requests are not supported, hence the software can't be used for 
community driven open source.


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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 21:40, jungle Boogie wrote:

On 14 June 2018 at 13:30, Thomas  wrote:

Web forums are much more superior than mailing lists, in any possible
direction.



Ah, yes, superior.
https://xkcd.com/979/

At this rate, I suggest we start using reddit more, it's at least more
diverse than a single stand alone forum.
https://www.reddit.com/r/sqlite/


Dinosaurs died out around 60 000 000 years before humans evolved.
No one can escape progress, no matter how hard some are clinging on the 
past.

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[fossil-users] Perception of Fossil

[Ron W]

In another forum I follow,a commented claims that Fossil is designed for
"cathedral development" not "bazaar development", so would be of little
interest to anyone. Unfortunately, the poster did not elaborate on why.

Except maybe possible issues scaling to a large number of contributors, I
don't see how Fossil is less suitable for  "bazaar development" than git or
Hg.

Thoughts?
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 09:23:14PM +0100, Thomas wrote:
> On 2018-06-14 20:59, Warren Young wrote:
> > On Jun 14, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Thomas  wrote:
> > > 
> > > no one wants to see all those in their inbox.
> > 
> > Mailing list messages are easily filtered.
> > 
> > I have one mailbox for each mailing list I subscribe to, and I read through 
> > the messages in list order, which makes it easy to mentally switch gears 
> > from one project to the next.
> 
> Most people only have one mailbox. I presume you're referring to folders.

OK, I guess that makes it pretty clear that your knowledge of mail
handling is limited. That's unsurprising, given that the majority of
fori proponents never really managed basic things like mail filtering...

> > If one project gets out of hand for a while, I can mark only that one 
> > mailbox as “read” without declaring email bankruptcy on all my other email.
> 
> Forum software offers the very same functionality but that's not the direct
> purpose of it. In a mailing list you're either "in" or "out". A forum
> provides all possible options.

I've had to deal with my share of fori. Frankly, they all suck for power
users, often badly. While mailing lists do tend to be a bit more
annoying than newsgroups, they nevertheless share the majority of
advantages. Offline access, decent filtering etc. Heck, a lot of fori
programs still hasn't even managed good threading.

You can't search a mailing list? Stop using Outlook.

Joerg
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 1:51 PM, John Long  wrote:
> 
> having to have browser tabs open for dozens of web forums

I bookmark all of the sites I need to go to regularly and place them in a 
folder in my browser’s bookmark bar so that I can open them all at once with a 
Cmd- or Ctrl-Click on the folder.  As I read each forum, I close that tab.

I actually keep two such folders, “Daily” and “Weekly,” suggesting my visiting 
frequency, which is set by how often I expect interesting content to appear.

> having to come up with and manage
> passwords for each of those

I’m not aware of any mailing list that doesn’t require a password, if only via 
some outer SSO provider.  Such a thing would be a spammer’s paradise, if it 
existed.

I don’t see this web forum depending on someone else’s SSO solution.  (OAuth, 
OpenID, etc.)  That would be very un-Fossil.

> and have to actively monitor each one to
> see if anything of interest happens to appear

Yes, just like Usenet. :)

Opening a folder of bookmarks in a browser isn’t much different than opening a 
Usenet client that’s subscribed to an equivalent number of groups.  Both 
aggregate access to many fora, opened with a single user action.

> Most mailing lists assign you a password

I subscribe to a whole lot of mailing lists, and I can’t come up with one where 
I was given the password instead of having to generate it with my password 
manager.

“A small minority,” I believe, but not “most.”

Certainly not GNU Mailman as configured at fossil-scm.org or at sqlite.org, at 
any rate.

> and you don't even have to keep track of it; many
> email you password reminders on a regular basis

If the mailing list is able to email you your password, it’s ripe for attack: 
they cannot possibly be hashing and salting their passwords, as is industry 
best practice:

https://security.stackexchange.com/q/51959

(Pro tip: if a web site has a maximum password length limit under 32 characters 
or so, chances are good that they’re storing your password in plaintext, since 
hashing the password inherently converts it to a fixed length.  Higher limits 
are more likely input sanity limits rather than risk indicators.)

The closest to your usability ideal that I’ve seen is automatic password resets 
via email, which is itself a vulnerability, since it means anyone who can 
access your email account is able to take over any such service associated with 
that email account.  This is what happened in the famous Mat Honan identity 
theft:

https://www.wired.com/2012/08/apple-amazon-mat-honan-hacking/

People say, “Oh, it’s just my Google account, who cares if a bad guy takes that 
over?”  This being the account that is associated with their Android phone, 
which is associated with their mobile phone company account, which is 
associated with their credit card account, which is associated with a large 
chunk of their financial life, so now they’re pwned.

Whatever drh decides to build, using a significant slice of his limited time on 
this planet, which time I have no call on, I expect he will take password 
security seriously, evidenced by Fossil’s users table:

https://www.fossil-scm.org/xfer/doc/trunk/www/tech_overview.wiki

(Section 2.2.4.)

> Web forums are right out.

Would you rather see drh spending time fighting spam or writing useful software?

At least if he spends his time building a forum system atop Fossil, we can all 
use it on our own projects as well.  His time spent fighting email spam has 
much more ephemeral benefits.
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[jungle Boogie]

On 14 June 2018 at 13:30, Thomas  wrote:
> Web forums are much more superior than mailing lists, in any possible
> direction.
>

Ah, yes, superior.
https://xkcd.com/979/

At this rate, I suggest we start using reddit more, it's at least more
diverse than a single stand alone forum.
https://www.reddit.com/r/sqlite/
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

Web forums are much more superior than mailing lists, in any possible 
direction.


There's nothing a mailing list can provide a forum can't, since it 
doesn't exclude email notifications.


However, there's loads of benefits a forum provides a mailing list can't 
catch up with.


That's the reason why mailing lists are disappearing.


On 2018-06-14 21:02, sky5w...@gmail.com wrote:

  Ha! I can see there are strong opposing opinions for mail vs forum.
I find forums more neatly packaged.
Mailing lists are not easily browsed or searched for relevant terms.
Some run on mail topics are a pain to find the nugget of information
desired.
Forum responses can have votes or kudos assigned which hasten searches.
Still, you will suffer spammers in the forum as bots have figured the user
request pages.
With Fossil's unversioned content, the forum or mail bloat can be minimized.

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:59 PM, Warren Young  wrote:


On Jun 14, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Thomas  wrote:


no one wants to see all those in their inbox.


Mailing list messages are easily filtered.

I have one mailbox for each mailing list I subscribe to, and I read
through the messages in list order, which makes it easy to mentally switch
gears from one project to the next.

If one project gets out of hand for a while, I can mark only that one
mailbox as “read” without declaring email bankruptcy on all my other email.
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Re: [fossil-users] Back on-line. Was: Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/14/18, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> On 6/14/18, Chad Perrin  wrote:
>>
>> It looks like the mailing list page itself is still down for this list.
>>
>>
>> http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
>
> It was working earlier today.  We've had some sign-ups.  And I haven't
> changed anything.  Trouble-shooting now

Should be working again now.

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 20:59, Warren Young wrote:

On Jun 14, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Thomas  wrote:


no one wants to see all those in their inbox.


Mailing list messages are easily filtered.

I have one mailbox for each mailing list I subscribe to, and I read through the 
messages in list order, which makes it easy to mentally switch gears from one 
project to the next.


Most people only have one mailbox. I presume you're referring to folders.



If one project gets out of hand for a while, I can mark only that one mailbox 
as “read” without declaring email bankruptcy on all my other email.


Forum software offers the very same functionality but that's not the 
direct purpose of it. In a mailing list you're either "in" or "out". A 
forum provides all possible options.

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Re: [fossil-users] Back on-line. Was: Mailing list shutting down...

[roarde]

I just signed up. The web interface for sign-ups didn't work; displayed an 
error message. I used the mail interface.

Received TWO confirmation requests, replied to one of them. Got "waiting for 
moderator approval", then "Welcome" along with regular list mail shortly after.

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 15:56:24 -0400
Richard Hipp  wrote:

> On 6/14/18, Chad Perrin  wrote:
> >
> > It looks like the mailing list page itself is still down for this list.
> >
> > http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users
> 
> It was working earlier today.  We've had some sign-ups.  And I haven't
> changed anything.  Trouble-shooting now
> 
> -- 
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
> ___
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> http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users


-- 
roarde
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[sky5walk]

 Ha! I can see there are strong opposing opinions for mail vs forum.
I find forums more neatly packaged.
Mailing lists are not easily browsed or searched for relevant terms.
Some run on mail topics are a pain to find the nugget of information
desired.
Forum responses can have votes or kudos assigned which hasten searches.
Still, you will suffer spammers in the forum as bots have figured the user
request pages.
With Fossil's unversioned content, the forum or mail bloat can be minimized.

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 3:59 PM, Warren Young  wrote:

> On Jun 14, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Thomas  wrote:
> >
> > no one wants to see all those in their inbox.
>
> Mailing list messages are easily filtered.
>
> I have one mailbox for each mailing list I subscribe to, and I read
> through the messages in list order, which makes it easy to mentally switch
> gears from one project to the next.
>
> If one project gets out of hand for a while, I can mark only that one
> mailbox as “read” without declaring email bankruptcy on all my other email.
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>
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 20:51, John Long wrote:

A decent email client can run on a terminal, over ssh or telnet, etc.
and can handle all sorts of filtering and searching. Most mailing lists


I just checked the calendar. It's the 21st century here. Not sure how 
many terminals, telnets or SSH sessions average users got open but I 
reckon that a good guess of less than a promille might be more precise 
than you may imagine...



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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Thomas  wrote:
> 
> no one wants to see all those in their inbox.

Mailing list messages are easily filtered.  

I have one mailbox for each mailing list I subscribe to, and I read through the 
messages in list order, which makes it easy to mentally switch gears from one 
project to the next.

If one project gets out of hand for a while, I can mark only that one mailbox 
as “read” without declaring email bankruptcy on all my other email.
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Re: [fossil-users] Back on-line. Was: Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/14/18, Chad Perrin  wrote:
>
> It looks like the mailing list page itself is still down for this list.
>
> http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

It was working earlier today.  We've had some sign-ups.  And I haven't
changed anything.  Trouble-shooting now

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[John Long]

On Thu, 2018-06-14 at 20:36 +0100, Thomas wrote:
> On 2018-06-14 17:47, Roy Keene wrote:
> > If it's any conideration, if it's not a mailing list or something
> > else 
> > pushed to me, I'll never see it.  A fossil users' forum will never
> > get 
> > checked (pulled) by me since I am just too lazy to remember to do
> > so on 
> > any regular frequency.  There may be others like me who are busy
> > but can 
> > occasionally check email.

Agreed 100%. This is the lowest noise option.

> 
> Mailing lists in general are disappearing and forums are coming in
> more 
> and more.

Yes, the world is going to hell in our lifetime. Dare I suggest we bin
all the mailing list ideas and go back to Usenet?


>  There surely are loads of reasons but I'd like to only point 
> out that once the amount of posts increases no one wants to see all 
> those in their inbox.

It's a huge pain in the ass to have to sign up for anything just to ask
a question or report a bug. Huge.

But as offensive and unmanageable as that is, having to have browser
tabs open for dozens of web forums, having to come up with and manage
passwords for each of those, and have to actively monitor each one to
see if anything of interest happens to appear, is much worse.

A decent email client can run on a terminal, over ssh or telnet, etc.
and can handle all sorts of filtering and searching. Most mailing lists
assign you a password and you don't even have to keep track of it; many
 email you password reminders on a regular basis and you don't even
need it until you want to unsubscribe.

Web forums are right out.

/jl

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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Thomas]

On 2018-06-14 17:47, Roy Keene wrote:
If it's any conideration, if it's not a mailing list or something else 
pushed to me, I'll never see it.  A fossil users' forum will never get 
checked (pulled) by me since I am just too lazy to remember to do so on 
any regular frequency.  There may be others like me who are busy but can 
occasionally check email.


Mailing lists in general are disappearing and forums are coming in more 
and more. There surely are loads of reasons but I'd like to only point 
out that once the amount of posts increases no one wants to see all 
those in their inbox.

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Re: [fossil-users] Back on-line. Was: Mailing list shutting down...

[Chad Perrin]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 09:05:14AM -0400, Richard Hipp wrote:
> On 6/13/18, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> > Unfortunately, I'm going to need to shut down this mailing list due to
> > robot harassment.  I am working to come up with a fix or an
> > alternative now
> 
> Mailing lists are now back on-line and once again accepting
> subscriptions.  I have implemented measures to block the subscription
> robots and to better log subscription activity to better detect future
> mischief.
> 
> I consider this to be a stop-gap measure that will buy me some time to
> implement and test a better log-term solution.  The current setup will
> change.  But the temporary measure I implemented this morning do at
> least get us back to a functional mailing list while work on the
> improved solution proceeds.

It looks like the mailing list page itself is still down for this list.

http://lists.fossil-scm.org:8080/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/fossil-users

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]
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[fossil-users] Small typos

[Donald Griggs]

On the new/setup_skin   page (noticed in fossil version 2.6
2018-05-04):

1.   "You can also authorized other user ..."
2.   "... the comma-separate list of GLOB ... "

The surplus "d" in #1  is needed in #2.

Thanks for the great product!

Donald Griggs
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Back on-line. Was: Mailing list shutting down...

[jungle Boogie]

On 14 June 2018 at 08:58, Richard Hipp  wrote:

>
> So there you have it:  If you want to harass someone by sending them
> thousands of subscription confirmations, there is now a website to
> assist you.  Do we need any further evidence that the heart of man is
> deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked?

You're right - we're born sinners and must practice being good.

> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org


-- 
---
inum: 883510009027723
sip: jungleboo...@sip2sip.info
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 10:51 AM, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> On 6/14/18, Roy Keene  wrote:
>> If it's any conideration, if it's not a mailing list or something else
>> pushed to me, I'll never see it.
> 
> I agree.  Any solution must support email notification.  Am working on
> that now.  But, given all the security constraints surrounding email
> these days, it is a tough problem.

I’ve just thought of a reason that you cannot simply send outbound email to a 
local MTA and have it deliver it for you, while conforming to all of the 
relevant RFCs: when the mailing list members receive the message, some may want 
to reply, and that would then go back to the same MTA which would then be 
unable to process the mail correctly.

An MTA plugin and/or hand-configuration to integrate Fossil Forums with the MTA 
could solve it, but now you’re adding complexity.  I suspect many haven’t put 
their public Fossil instances behind an HTTPS proxy for the same reason, and we 
should take that as a caution.

There are definite advantages to Fossil Forums being its own MTA.
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Roy Keene]

As someone who rarely posts messages and mostly reads the posts, I 
wouldn't be affected by requiring posts be done via an authenticated 
web-based system.  RSS may even be an option over email for consuming and 
it can have links for authenticated posting.  I haven't read all the 
emails on this thread so sorry if this is already been hashed out.


On Thu, 14 Jun 2018, Richard Hipp wrote:


On 6/14/18, Roy Keene  wrote:

If it's any conideration, if it's not a mailing list or something else
pushed to me, I'll never see it.


I agree.  Any solution must support email notification.  Am working on
that now.  But, given all the security constraints surrounding email
these days, it is a tough problem.
--
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/14/18, Roy Keene  wrote:
> If it's any conideration, if it's not a mailing list or something else
> pushed to me, I'll never see it.

I agree.  Any solution must support email notification.  Am working on
that now.  But, given all the security constraints surrounding email
these days, it is a tough problem.
-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/14/18, Warren Young  wrote:
> It might
> be that the internal developer discussions use this proposed Fossil Forum
> feature and the user discussions are held elsewhere.

My plan was to set up an entirely new Fossil repo just to host the
Forum for SQLite - a repo that was separate from the SQLite source
code repo and holds only the forum.  Call it https://sqlite.org/forum

On the Fossil website, on the other hand, the entire website is just a
single Fossil instance.  And so on that case it does seem to make more
sense to put the forum in the same repo as the source code.

A key point here is you get to choose.  Easily.  Fossil is (or at
least should be) so simple to set up that people can and do decide to
use Fossil to host just a forum, or just a wiki, or just a ticketing
system, without being required to use all the rest of the
capabilities.
-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Roy Keene]

If it's any conideration, if it's not a mailing list or something else 
pushed to me, I'll never see it.  A fossil users' forum will never get 
checked (pulled) by me since I am just too lazy to remember to do so on 
any regular frequency.  There may be others like me who are busy but can 
occasionally check email.


On Thu, 14 Jun 2018, Warren Young wrote:


On Jun 14, 2018, at 4:29 AM, Dominique Devienne  wrote:


Last discussion/thread on moving away from MLs on the SQLite list showed a 
clear bias
against using a forum over a ML IMHO, especially from long time contributors. 
My $0.02... —DD


I was one of those arguing in favor of mailing lists.

To me, the question comes down to two key questions:

1. Which gets us back into operation faster?  If the effort to maintain a 
mailing list in today’s inimical environment is greater than the effort to 
develop an alternate solution that would sidestep these problems, it’s really 
hard to justify sticking with mailing lists.

2. Does switching add important and valuable new capabilities?

Note the qualifiers.  Animoji are not important to the SQLite or Fossil 
development projects, and their value is very low.  Integration with the Fossil 
DVCS may be very valuable and could become important if it helps win converts.


One new thought since my prior post: many projects (including Fossil and 
SQLite) have separate user and developer communication channels.  It might be 
that the internal developer discussions use this proposed Fossil Forum feature 
and the user discussions are held elsewhere.

In one of my Fossil-based projects, we have a public Google Group for 
discussions that may not even touch on the software development project, with 
developer discussions hidden away in private email, even though there’s nothing 
particularly personal about the discussions.

I mentioned Fossil artifact links in a prior email.  I’m frequently 
hand-crafting these in emails to other developers on the project to refer to 
some checkin, wiki edit, etc.  It’s annoying.
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Warren Young]

On Jun 14, 2018, at 4:29 AM, Dominique Devienne  wrote:
> 
> Last discussion/thread on moving away from MLs on the SQLite list showed a 
> clear bias
> against using a forum over a ML IMHO, especially from long time contributors. 
> My $0.02... —DD

I was one of those arguing in favor of mailing lists.

To me, the question comes down to two key questions:

1. Which gets us back into operation faster?  If the effort to maintain a 
mailing list in today’s inimical environment is greater than the effort to 
develop an alternate solution that would sidestep these problems, it’s really 
hard to justify sticking with mailing lists.

2. Does switching add important and valuable new capabilities?

Note the qualifiers.  Animoji are not important to the SQLite or Fossil 
development projects, and their value is very low.  Integration with the Fossil 
DVCS may be very valuable and could become important if it helps win converts.


One new thought since my prior post: many projects (including Fossil and 
SQLite) have separate user and developer communication channels.  It might be 
that the internal developer discussions use this proposed Fossil Forum feature 
and the user discussions are held elsewhere.

In one of my Fossil-based projects, we have a public Google Group for 
discussions that may not even touch on the software development project, with 
developer discussions hidden away in private email, even though there’s nothing 
particularly personal about the discussions.

I mentioned Fossil artifact links in a prior email.  I’m frequently 
hand-crafting these in emails to other developers on the project to refer to 
some checkin, wiki edit, etc.  It’s annoying.
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Back on-line. Was: Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/14/18, Gary R. Schmidt  wrote:
>
> Would you be willing to publish your fix to the mailman list so that
> others could make use of it?
>

I will provide *some* information:

I installed a CGI logging system on selected parts of the subscription
interface, and I am running "tail -f" on the log file.  What I am
seeing suggests that the problem is not caused by a single attacker,
as there are a wide variety of attacks against the subscription
systems.  There are many different IP addresses from all over the
world, so IP address blocking is of no help.  But the differences are
deeper than just multiple IP addresses (multiple IP addresses might
simply mean that the attacker is using a botnet, for example.)  The
signatures of the attacks are very different.  It is all done by
robots, clearly, but it appears that very different code is used for
each attack.  To describe just one example, some of the attacks are
coming in as GET requests, whereas others are coming in as POST.

A minor fraction of the attacks seem to be coming from this website:
http://185.203.240.97/spam/

So there you have it:  If you want to harass someone by sending them
thousands of subscription confirmations, there is now a website to
assist you.  Do we need any further evidence that the heart of man is
deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked?
-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Shal Farley]

On 2018-06-13 7:05 AM, Richard Hipp wrote:

I would like to provide users the option to send messages formatted
using Markdown.  Are there Markdown libraries available in TCL that I
can use, that you know of?


Groups.io  supports Markdown (web posting only). 
Messages composed in markdown are converted to HTML before sending to 
the subscribers.


It also supports editing of messages in the archive, with a wiki-like 
revision history. And a Wiki on the side.


Shal

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Re: [fossil-users] Export to SVN?

[Thomas Burdick]

Le 13/06/2018 19:35, « Stéphane Aulery »  a écrit :
  
Hello,

Le 13/06/2018 à 16:16, Thomas Burdick a écrit :
> 
> I’m interested in experimenting with Fossil as a replacement for svn for 
> a large-ish project I work on. I saw that import can import a dumped svn 
> repository, but there’s no export option for svn. Would adding one be a 
> lot of work?

Maybe you can do Fossil > Git > SVN

[ ... ]

Git > SVN seems painfull.

Yes, it is. I'd rather try to get a Fossil > SVN flow working than deal with 
Git > SVN.

Regards,
Thomas

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Re: [fossil-users] Incorrect arrow colors when using -bgcolor

[Florian Balmer]

Andy Goth:

> In my test case, the outbound arrows are white, which doesn't look
> so great against the default white background.

The timeline arrow color generated from background color #00aa00 was
not white, but #ffd6, which is an invalid HTML/CSS color value,
and happened to be displayed as white by your web browser.

Richard Hipp:

> Fixed on trunk

With the fix committed as [7ac88481a6] [0], timeline arrow colors have
been turned off completely, and all timeline arrows are now displayed
with black color, also for skins with dark background colors, see for
example "xekri" [1].

[0] http://fossil-scm.org/index.html/info/7ac88481a6
[1] http://fossil-scm.org/skins/xekri/timeline

The problem is that the function to generate the timeline arrow colors
from background colors can have an "unsigned integer underflow",
resulting in invalid HTML/CSS color values.

I have suggested a modification for this, a while ago. With the
modification, the generated timeline arrow color for background color
#00aa00 would be #008000, and not #ffd6.

I really liked the timeline arrow colors, they were very helpful to
more easily distinguish the course of different timeline rails.

Please allow me to encourage you to have a look at my modifications,
and implement something similar, to bring back the beloved timeline
arrow colors.

Thank you very much
--Florian

= Patch for Fossil [4bbd5c3e] ==

Prevent unsigned integer underflow in the code to calculate slightly
darker timeline rail colors derived from branch background colors,
resulting in invalid output for the HTML/Javascript timeline drawing
code. Example: branch color #ff00ff results in invalid timeline rail
color #80ff without the fix, and in #800080 with the patch applied.

Index: src/timeline.c
==
--- src/timeline.c
+++ src/timeline.c
@@ -651,11 +651,14 @@
 static const unsigned int t = 215;
 if( mxt ) for(i=0; i<3; i++) x[i] -= mx - t;
+if( mx>t ) for(i=0; i<3; i++){
+  if( x[i]>=mx - t ) x[i] -= mx - t;
+  else x[i] = 0;
+}
   }
   sqlite3_snprintf(sizeof(zRes),zRes,"#%02x%02x%02x",x[0],x[1],x[2]);
   return zRes;
 }

= Patch for Fossil [4bbd5c3e] ==

= Patch for Fossil [4bbd5c3e] ==

Check if branch background colors are in correct HTML/CSS hexadecimal
RGB representation before calculating the derived timeline rail colors,
and also allow color values in shorthand hex triplet notation #HHH.

Index: src/timeline.c
==
--- src/timeline.c
+++ src/timeline.c
@@ -631,21 +631,33 @@
 /*
 ** Change the RGB background color given in the argument in a foreground
 ** color with the same hue.
 */
 static const char *bg_to_fg(const char *zIn){
+  int nIn; /* length of zIn */
   int i;
   unsigned int x[3];
   unsigned int mx = 0;
   static int whiteFg = -1;
   static char zRes[10];
-  if( strlen(zIn)!=7 || zIn[0]!='#' ) return zIn;
+  nIn = strlen( zIn );
+  if(( nIn!=7 && nIn!=4 ) || zIn[0]!='#' ) return zIn;
+  for(i=1; imx ) mx = x[i];
+  if( nIn==4 ){
+for(i=0; i<3; i++){
+  x[i] = hex_digit_value(zIn[0])*17;
+  zIn++;
+  if( x[i]>mx ) mx = x[i];
+}
+  }else{
+for(i=0; i<3; i++){
+  x[i] = hex_digit_value(zIn[0])*16 + hex_digit_value(zIn[1]);
+  zIn += 2;
+  if( x[i]>mx ) mx = x[i];
+}
   }
   if( whiteFg<0 ) whiteFg = skin_detail_boolean("white-foreground");
   if( whiteFg ){
 /* Make the color lighter */
 static const unsigned int t = 215;

= Patch for Fossil [4bbd5c3e] ==

= Patch for Fossil [4bbd5c3e] ==

Return default timeline rail color values #00 (for white background)
or #ff (for black background) for all non-hex triplet branch color
values. Note that named color values (such as 'red') and color values in
functional notation (such as 'rgba(255,128,64,0.8)') are not affected,
as only branch colors starting with '#' are passed to bg_to_fg() to
calculate derived rail colors, in the first place. So this patch only
filters color values with bad hexadecimal RGB representation, such as
'#12345' (invalid length) or '#z12345' (invalid hexadecimal character).

Index: src/timeline.c
==
--- src/timeline.c
+++ src/timeline.c
@@ -637,14 +637,15 @@
   int i;
   unsigned int x[3];
   unsigned int mx = 0;
   static int whiteFg = -1;
   static char zRes[10];
+  if( whiteFg<0 ) whiteFg = skin_detail_boolean("white-foreground");
   nIn = strlen( zIn );
-  if(( nIn!=7 && nIn!=4 ) || zIn[0]!='#' ) return zIn;
+  if(( nIn!=7 && nIn!=4 ) || zIn[0]!='#' ) goto default_fg;
   for(i=1; imx ) mx = x[i];
 }
   }
-  if( whiteFg<0 ) whiteFg = skin_detail_boolean("white-foreground");
   if( whiteFg ){
 /* Make the 

[fossil-users] Back on-line. Was: Mailing list shutting down...

[Richard Hipp]

On 6/13/18, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> Unfortunately, I'm going to need to shut down this mailing list due to
> robot harassment.  I am working to come up with a fix or an
> alternative now

Mailing lists are now back on-line and once again accepting
subscriptions.  I have implemented measures to block the subscription
robots and to better log subscription activity to better detect future
mischief.

I consider this to be a stop-gap measure that will buy me some time to
implement and test a better log-term solution.  The current setup will
change.  But the temporary measure I implemented this morning do at
least get us back to a functional mailing list while work on the
improved solution proceeds.
-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Gour]

On Thu, 14 Jun 2018 12:29:40 +0200
Dominique Devienne 
wrote:

> Still, I like MLs best... If the only issue is the subscription part,
> lets fix that only?

+1

> Last discussion/thread on moving away from MLs on the SQLite list showed a
> clear bias against using a forum over a ML IMHO, especially from long time
> contributors. My $0.02... --DD

I fully agree with keeping good old MLs. ;)


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
There is no possibility of one's becoming a yogī, O Arjuna,
if one eats too much or eats too little, sleeps too much
or does not sleep enough.


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Re: [fossil-users] [sqlite] Mailing list shutting down...

[Dominique Devienne]

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 9:00 PM Richard Hipp  wrote:

> Discourse is moving the right direction, I think.  [...]
>
> Does anybody else have any experience with Discourse, good or bad?
>

We have an internal instance, and I've had good (but limited) experience
with it.

Editing works well, quoting previous post and inserting responses inline
works well.
There are categories to organise posts into, setup for admins I believe.
Editing is quite similar to StackOverflow, but given Jeff Atwood's
involvement that's hardly surprising.
Some gamification with badges and stuff, like SO again. Email notifications
possible. But AFAIK, no
possibility to reply by email...

Still, I like MLs best... If the only issue is the subscription part, lets
fix that only?

Last discussion/thread on moving away from MLs on the SQLite list showed a
clear bias
against using a forum over a ML IMHO, especially from long time
contributors. My $0.02... --DD
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[John Pateman]

I can see the advantages having an additional focussed collaborative tool 
within Fossil - it would be a very useful feature for small groups to discuss 
design decisions/progress and bug fixing. Linking to email especially for the 
bug tracker has also been a long requested feature. I can see this as a very 
useful feature for discussion & focussed development within a a small /medium 
sized team. I would also like to see something like the Kanban style board 
showcased a couple of years back be integrated too as this would also be a 
major improvement to the bug tracker  and aid collaboration (but that is a 
separate issue).

However, a forum for a bigger project like Fossil is bit different. the 
membership is much wider and members are not all part of the development team.  
The nature of the use case is different as well - it is not primarily to do 
with developing the project but rather to search for solution to a problem or 
advice on the best approach and possible solutions. It does not need to be so 
focussed on work allocation, attribution & blame/praise. The board should be 
easily searched  and ideally tagged. There are numerous open source forum 
software options as outlined by previous contributors.  Most/all support RSS 
notifications. I subscribe to a Discourse based board which works extremely 
well - it provides an email interface - you can receive emails for every post 
or only ones you chose to watch, ones you reply to or initiate. So you can use 
it as a lightweight RSS/email based subscription or access it via a full web 
interface. It is easy to search, supports markdown and has a simple clean 
interface. I am not sure about the capabilities of the other suggestions but I 
am sure they are generally capable and widely used. Whilst it is obviously 
important that the content of a forum is reliable, managing the posts within 
the repository as individual commits sounds like an unnecessary complication. 
Whilst it might seem very shallow, I think people jump to conclusions about the 
currency of a project by its look - I think that some of the more modern forum 
software options would help to support the belief that Fossil is alive and well.

tl;dr
Horses for Courses.  I am really not sure it is worth reinventing the wheel as 
most of the alternative forum solutions are very capable. However a 
collaboration tool within Fossil would be a very good idea especially for a 
small team but I don’t think it would be so useful for this particular issue 
i.e. an open-access forum group.

John Pateman


> On 13 Jun 2018, at 22:12, Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
> On 6/13/18, Warren Young  wrote:
>>> Indeed, there are many advantages to just tacking a forum capability
>>> onto Fossil.
>> 
>> Let’s list them:
>> 
>> 2. Everyone who clones a Fossil project repository would henceforth also get
>> a clone of the project’s message traffic.
> 
> This is not necessarily an advantage.  We I have found is that forum
> and ticket traffic far exceeds the amount of source code.  Furthermore
> this kind of traffic does not lend itself well to delta compression.
> And so what you would likely encounter is that clones would swell
> uncontrollably with most of the extra space going to extraneous and
> noisy forum traffic.  This is especially true if attachments are
> allowed on forum posts, because what I have found is that you will
> quickly accumulate many multi-megabyte incompressible screenshot
> attachments.  It doesn't take too many people attaching screenshots
> off of their hi-res "retinue" screen to give you 1GB clone bandwidth
> even for a smaller project.
> 
>> 
>> 3. Forum posts can show up in the timeline.
> 
> Yikes.  I think I would certainly want that to be turned off by default.
> 
>> 
>> 4. Forum posts will be able to ink to Fossil artifacts in the same way that
>> checkin comments, wiki articles, and such can today.
>> 
>> 5. Vice versa: a checkin comment can say “Closes issue raised in forum post
>> [abcd1234]” and get an automatic *and durable* link to the post.  (How many
>> web mail archives have gone away or broken their link structure since the
>> SQLite ML was started?)
>> 
>> 6. Trivially-implemented delayed offline replies: sync the project repo
>> before you go off-network, write your forum message replies on the airplane,
>> in the tent, etc. then sync when you get back into the warm wifi bath to
>> push all your replies out.
>> 
> 
> These last three are nice ideas.  But they depend on (2) which comes
> with associated bandwidth and storage overhead.
> 
> My current design does not automatically sync forum content.  I might
> add the ability to sync forum traffic separately, using a separate
> command, just as one can now optionally sync unversioned content using
> the "fossil uv sync" command.  But that will come later, if at all.
> 
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Mailing list shutting down...

[Shal Farley]

On 2018-06-13 4:28 AM, Richard Hipp wrote:

Unfortunately, I'm going to need to shut down this mailing list due to
robot harassment.  I am working to come up with a fix or an
alternative now.  Your suggestions are welcomed.
If you're open to a commercial mailing list with web archive features 
I'd recommend Groups.io  over either a Yahoo Group 
or Google group. It has the key advantage of being under active 
development by a developer with deep experience in mailing lists and a 
commitment to bring them into the modern world. It is also run on a 
"freemium" business model which means no ads or tracking/selling of user 
info.


Too, if you can export the current MailMan archive as an mbox file they 
can import it for you. The web interface provides search and browse 
capability for message threads as well as reply and new topic posting. 
The email interface provides full subscription management support 
(subscribe, unsubscribe, digest or individual messages, and topic muting 
or following) for those who don't want to bother with the web interface.

The most recent problem is that robots are visiting the subscription
page and entering innocent user's email addresses and names.  This
causes a confirmation email to be sent to that user.  If it were just
single confirmation email that the user could ignore, that would be
fine.  But apparently MailMan sends one email for each subscription
request.  The robots have figured this out and are putting in hundreds
of subscription requests for the same individual, apparently to harass
them.
I don't know if Groups.io has a specific countermeasure for this novel 
form of abuse, but the developer would no doubt take care of it were the 
problem to follow you. I can inquire (or you could) at supp...@groups.io 
if you're interested.


I haven't heard of any of their user lists being afflicted by anything 
like the porn spammer that has cropped up here, but as you know since 
that happens entirely off-list there's not much that can be done about 
it by any list software. There has been talk (in their "suggestion box" 
list) of having "anonymous" groups where the outbound messages would not 
contain the poster's email address; but that hasn't been implemented yet 
and it isn't clear that the users of this list would want that anyway.


One of the reasons I suggest this is that Mailing list implementation 
and support can be a bit of a rabbit-hole, particularly with ongoing  
deliverability challenges like DMARC, FBLs, and other over-aggressive 
spam blocking by mailbox services. Groups.io works those problems so you 
don't have to.


That said, I don't necessarily want to discourage you from considering a 
roll-your-own forum or list facility as others have been discussing, if 
you would enjoy doing that or if you envision a killer advantage.


Shal
List Owner: GroupManagersForum 
Recovering Yahoo Group 
 power user


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