Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)

[Andy Bradford]

Thus said Richard Hipp on Mon, 17 Oct 2016 22:12:17 -0400:

> I was just now booted from my own mailing list for excessive bounces.
> ;-)  Dunno what that is about...

Does  it have  something  to do  with  the fact  that  the mailing  list
seems  to  be  split-brained?  Sometimes  I  see  messages  coming  from
lists.fossil-scm.org,  and  others  I  see an  sqlite.org  domain.  It's
possible that  the mailing list  software isn't correctly  configured to
handle both  and so  sometimes when  people use  one it  causes bounces,
while when the other is used, it does not.

Which sender address did the bounces come from?

Thanks,

Andy
-- 
TAI64 timestamp: 400058059961


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Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)

[K. Fossil user]

Hi again,
1/ Malware or anything related? NOT at all !
2/ Yep resubscribe. However it could bother some people (not me tough).


Best Regards

K.

  De : Scott Doctor <sc...@scottdoctor.com>
 À : Fossil SCM user's discussion <fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org> 
 Envoyé le : Mardi 18 octobre 2016 2h25
 Objet : Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)
   
Could it be a virus or some sort of malware?


-
Scott Doctor
sc...@scottdoctor.com
-

On 10/17/2016 19:12, Richard Hipp wrote:
> I was just now booted from my own mailing list for excessive bounces.
> ;-)  Dunno what that is about...
>
> It was easy enough to click on the link in the notification message to
> resubscribe.
>

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Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)

[Scott Doctor]

Could it be a virus or some sort of malware?


-
Scott Doctor
sc...@scottdoctor.com
-

On 10/17/2016 19:12, Richard Hipp wrote:

I was just now booted from my own mailing list for excessive bounces.
;-)  Dunno what that is about...

It was easy enough to click on the link in the notification message to
resubscribe.



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Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)

[Richard Hipp]

I was just now booted from my own mailing list for excessive bounces.
;-)  Dunno what that is about...

It was easy enough to click on the link in the notification message to
resubscribe.

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)

[K. Fossil user]

Hi all of you,
Hi Scott and Luca,
1/ Luca said :
"And you are free to get another DVCS of your choice.
Go get trolling somewhere else"
a) I don't use Fossil. I used to in the past. I am waiting for a rock solid 
one. :-)At least read carefully if English is not your first language.b) I 
don't try another DVCS because I am happy with my Git for what I am waiting for 
(basic needs).
c) I think you don't know what a troll is.d) If you don't agree with someone 
try to argue.
(I was wondering if I should answer or not. :D)

2/ The discuss beyond will be for Scott.
a) One of the best comment I've ever read in Fossil Mail. Thank you.
b) I agree with most of your statment, at least, I agree with the "DRH/Linus" 
point of view.

c) "I have a hard time understanding how you think one email address having 
difficulty with a mail list is a sign of a lack of marketing acumen"
This would be my point of view in the past.In fact, communication e.g. email, 
Mattermost, etc. is a marketing tool.Git communication is Github. Note that 
I've NEVER said that Github is a part of Git !

d) About Git : nope Git was adopted because of his features in the 
beginning.The famous Linux lets Git grows faster. Github consolidate git first 
place.

e) And of course as you said, things don't ALWAYS work.
3/ For the record, I've got NO interest inside MatterMost.My thought is that 
nice project deserve nice communication tools, not for marketing but for a more 
efficient communication between Fossil users.
4/ About Yahoo discuss :No I won't change my email because of a "bounce 
notification". "Bounce notification" does not bother me at all.For 
communication reason, I rise the issue, so the Fossil Team should be warned.
The issue seems to be the fact that the mail man software sends email that is 
owned by yahoo.That behavior is forbidden by serious companies, because of 
phishing risks, etc., and Mailman should take that into account seriously.

To sum up my point of view :When one can't use a tool as it should be, it is 
bad communication : may be a lack of something.Behind the scene the Fossil 
website were down : drh said "NEVER happened". I said that it's a security 
issue : xinetd should not be used because it might be a security breach (I've 
learn that few years ago).Whatever is your project, you will need a marketing 
tool, and most of the time most of the basic tools : it is not about money, it 
is about Future [of the project].


Best Regards

K.
  De : Scott Robison <sc...@casaderobison.com>
 À : Fossil SCM user's discussion <fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org> 
 Envoyé le : Lundi 17 octobre 2016 15h56
 Objet : Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)
   
On Oct 16, 2016 6:35 PM, "K. Fossil user" <ticketpersonnal-fos...@yahoo.fr> 
wrote:
>
> I am angry because Fossil knows nothing about marketing which is bad for any 
> project...If I may paraphrase, Fossil's benevolent dictator has stated many 
> times in the past that the One True Purpose (TM) of Fossil is to serve SQLite 
> development. The fact that others find it nice for their use is a happy 
> coincidence.I think the point of marketing can be interpreted a couple 
> different ways.One, in some organizations marketing drives development. This 
> is done to make more money or to try to be all things to all people. Since 
> Fossil is FOSS money is not an issue. Since DRH has a pretty clear vision of 
> what he wants Fossil to be, he explicitly does not want it to be all things 
> to all people. He's not opposed to allowed enhancements that he doesn't use 
> himself as long as they don't conflict with his core DVCS principles.Two, 
> pure marketing, from the perspective of informing people of the option, is 
> not a strength of most FOSS projects. Evangelism is similar but different. I 
> would state that Linus Torvalds isn't a great marketer either, but that 
> didn't stop the Linux kernel from gaining mind share. It just happened to 
> come at the right time and became huge IMO based on the FUD surrounding BSD 
> at the time. That git is popular is almost exclusively an artifact of Linux 
> popularity, not brilliant marketing.In similar fashion, SQLite started as a 
> solution to a problem it's author was having. It was shared, and it grew in 
> popularity. From a dev perspective it's arguably not as interesting as Linux 
> (there are more subprojects of Linux for a dev to try to hack on if they 
> want), but it has gained mind share in its space. The fact that SQLite is a 
> smaller scope project than Linux parallels the relative mind share of Fossil 
> vs git. Not to mention the cottage industry of projects that exist to make 
> git more usable, which is arguably not as necessary for Fossil.I don't 
> believe you're trying to be offensive in your use of words, but I have a hard 
&

Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)

[Scott Robison]

On Oct 16, 2016 6:35 PM, "K. Fossil user" 
wrote:
>
> I am angry because Fossil knows nothing about marketing which is bad for
any project...

If I may paraphrase, Fossil's benevolent dictator has stated many times in
the past that the One True Purpose (TM) of Fossil is to serve SQLite
development. The fact that others find it nice for their use is a happy
coincidence.

I think the point of marketing can be interpreted a couple different ways.

One, in some organizations marketing drives development. This is done to
make more money or to try to be all things to all people. Since Fossil is
FOSS money is not an issue. Since DRH has a pretty clear vision of what he
wants Fossil to be, he explicitly does not want it to be all things to all
people. He's not opposed to allowed enhancements that he doesn't use
himself as long as they don't conflict with his core DVCS principles.

Two, pure marketing, from the perspective of informing people of the
option, is not a strength of most FOSS projects. Evangelism is similar but
different. I would state that Linus Torvalds isn't a great marketer either,
but that didn't stop the Linux kernel from gaining mind share. It just
happened to come at the right time and became huge IMO based on the FUD
surrounding BSD at the time. That git is popular is almost exclusively an
artifact of Linux popularity, not brilliant marketing.

In similar fashion, SQLite started as a solution to a problem it's author
was having. It was shared, and it grew in popularity. From a dev
perspective it's arguably not as interesting as Linux (there are more
subprojects of Linux for a dev to try to hack on if they want), but it has
gained mind share in its space. The fact that SQLite is a smaller scope
project than Linux parallels the relative mind share of Fossil vs git. Not
to mention the cottage industry of projects that exist to make git more
usable, which is arguably not as necessary for Fossil.

I don't believe you're trying to be offensive in your use of words, but I
have a hard time understanding how you think one email address having
difficulty with a mail list is a sign of a lack of marketing acumen. I
doubt it is a problem many people have. Would it drive away people?
Perhaps. Has it? It doesn't appear to have, but maybe this mail list is
preventing more people from engaging with the project than we realize.

If I might make a suggestion. Try creating a non Yahoo email account.
Subscribe from it. Configure it to forward to your Yahoo account, or to
have Yahoo pull from it. See if that solves the problem. Don't attribute
malice or incompetence. I think everyone would like things to just work,
but they don't always, and there can be too many variables for one person
to analyze in finding a solution.
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Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)

[Eduardo Morras]

On Sun, 16 Oct 2016 08:08:46 -0400
Steven Gawroriski  wrote:

> On Sun, 16 Oct 2016 03:27:02 + (UTC)
> "K. Fossil user"  wrote:
> 
> > Hi again,
> > Ah I forgot something like this :
> > "Your membership in the mailing list fossil-users has been disabled
> > due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated
> > 16-Oct-2016.  You will not get any more messages from this list
> > until you re-enable your membership.  You will receive 3 more
> > reminders like this before your membership in the list is deleted.
> > "
> 
> I would check all of the e-mails you have received and compare them
> with the archive on the mailing list site. It is possible that Yahoo
> is blocking the e-mails due to much mail (anyone from a Yahoo address
> will get a copy of the mails).

I have a similar problem from time to time on some lists. Note that my email is 
from yahoo too. 

On some lists I don't get my own messages, having "receive own messages" in 
mail list configuration set to yes.

Yahoo is slowing falling down...


---   ---
Eduardo Morras 
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Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)

[Luca Ferrari]

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 2:32 AM, K. Fossil user
 wrote:
> Of course he would tell everyone that Fossil is a very bad Team with a very
> bad product.

And you are free to get another DVCS of your choice.
Go get trolling somewhere else.

Luca
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Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)

[K. Fossil user]

Hi,
1/a) "It is possible that Yahoo is
blocking the e-mails due to much mail"
May be. I've received many mails from other website but nothing like that.
b) "It is also possible that Yahoo is refusing some kinds of attachments"
May be, however i do receive any kind of attachments.
c) "I
would suggest you go to your subscription settings for the mailing list
and disable attachments"
Something I won't do : attachments have got nice info sometimes especially 
patches... and sometimes signatures.At least do what you can as you've said and 
think.Then we will see if a change could be done.
2/"You should not attribute mail server communication issues as malice. If
the administrators wanted you gone they could outright ban and block
your e-mail address"
:-D
a) Nothing seems to show us that there is any malice, at least here nothing I 
point out that it should not occur: it is bad for the Fossil future.However I 
agree that it is necessary for you to inform people about this e.g. your talk 
about malice.b) People could be banned, and I know someone in another website 
that was banned.It's something I never recommend unless there is a serious 
jeopardy such as illegal way of conduct or something that may tend to that.c) 
Honestly people here are really respectful, may be some of them are not but 
that doesn't bother me.d) And I dare to say that Fossil team does a nice job in 
general, however they act like stupid people when it comes to something outside 
the computer reality...(A geeky attitude i suppose ?)

3/ Try to see if it is because Fossil send something that is supposed to be 
from Yahoo ?They would like to avoid phishing issue for example ?

4/ BTW thank you for your advice and your job.I don't think that you can do 
anything but who knows...

Best Regards

K.

  De : Steven Gawroriski <ste...@multiphasicapps.net>
 À : fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org 
 Envoyé le : Dimanche 16 octobre 2016 12h08
 Objet : Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)
   
On Sun, 16 Oct 2016 03:27:02 + (UTC)
"K. Fossil user" <ticketpersonnal-fos...@yahoo.fr> wrote:

> Hi again,
> Ah I forgot something like this :
> "Your membership in the mailing list fossil-users has been disabled
> due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated
> 16-Oct-2016.  You will not get any more messages from this list until
> you re-enable your membership.  You will receive 3 more reminders like
> this before your membership in the list is deleted.
> "

I would check all of the e-mails you have received and compare them
with the archive on the mailing list site. It is possible that Yahoo is
blocking the e-mails due to much mail (anyone from a Yahoo address
will get a copy of the mails).

It is also possible that Yahoo is refusing some kinds of attachments,
which do appear in the mailing list, and is blocking those e-mails. If
none of your e-mails from the mailing list have attachments then I
would suggest you go to your subscription settings for the mailing list
and disable attachments.

> When it comes to mailman... not astonished.
> The message one could read could be "Hey you hurt us !".Now I
> understand that the issue the other day is not fixed. The same in
> fact.

You should not attribute mail server communication issues as malice. If
the administrators wanted you gone they could outright ban and block
your e-mail address. That would be far more effective and more
efficient than recompiling the mail server to create fake bounce
notices on your account.
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Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)

[K. Fossil user]

Hi,
Hostile ? You don't know what it is hostility then...Someone who is a bit 
hostile won't write here unless he is a bit moronic in his mind...And of course 
he won't give any advice.
Of course he would tell everyone that Fossil is a very bad Team with a very bad 
product.May be you would like me to say that around ? Yes I can, but I may 
not.I am angry because Fossil knows nothing about marketing which is bad for 
any project...
I must admit it : I was wrong when I taught that Fossil have basic knowledge of 
marketing.
And yes sir, it will be hard to try to convince people to use Fossil after what 
I've read.We both agree at least that you haven't read/didn't understand what 
I've said in my previous thread, have you ?
Serious people don't like pessimistic message, but I, like many serious people, 
prefer Truth even if it is said with very brutal and rude way.I guess what I've 
wrote is really brutal for you...

Of course, if you've got nice advice to all of us, at least for me, share it.

I've got an advice for you : because I am so wrong why don't you try to ask 
your friends in real life (not here) about this :"What do you think guys about 
a project who knows nothing about marketing ?"Or at least if you do think that 
it is untrue (let me laugh) ask:"What do you think guys about a project who 
knows blatantly about marketing ?"
And because you are SO honest then ask this :"Is the guy who have noticed that 
wrong or not ?"
Are you still honest with us ? Yes ? Then share it here...
Remember what I've said ? Everyone prefer the Truth.
To sum up what I've said in previous thread :Because there is no reason for 
people to use Fossil, then it is necessary to have a better marketing 
approach.A poll is a beginning of a marketing approach. Everyone seem to 
disagree with the poll I've asked.
Then I've given some good reasons why polls should occur, such as a compilation 
issue I've never seen before. And WE ALL see that there were few days ago some 
compilation issue with the Windows OS realm. Which is a shame in my point of 
view.

Would you dare to say what I've sum up above ? I do recommend not, but it's up 
to you sir.

Best Regards

K.

  De : Joerg Sonnenberger <jo...@bec.de>
 À : fossil-users@lists.fossil-scm.org 
 Envoyé le : Dimanche 16 octobre 2016 14h27
 Objet : Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)
   
On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 03:27:02AM +, K. Fossil user wrote:
> Try to convince people to use Fossil after that : very hard.

Can you please take your negative and hostile attitude somewhere else?
It seems clear now that you have a number of problems on your side.
>From a mail server that doesn't work properly for whatever reason, over
a build environment you don't want tell us about to whatever random FUD
you are repeating based on unnamed coworkers. I'd kindly request you to
follow basic rules of productive communication. If you have a problem
and you don't want it solved, don't bother telling us about it. If you
do want it to be improved, it doesn't help if you don't tell us what it
actually is.

Joerg
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Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 03:27:02AM +, K. Fossil user wrote:
> Try to convince people to use Fossil after that : very hard.

Can you please take your negative and hostile attitude somewhere else?
It seems clear now that you have a number of problems on your side.
From a mail server that doesn't work properly for whatever reason, over
a build environment you don't want tell us about to whatever random FUD
you are repeating based on unnamed coworkers. I'd kindly request you to
follow basic rules of productive communication. If you have a problem
and you don't want it solved, don't bother telling us about it. If you
do want it to be improved, it doesn't help if you don't tell us what it
actually is.

Joerg
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Re: [fossil-users] disabled due to excessive bounces (again?)

[Steven Gawroriski]

On Sun, 16 Oct 2016 03:27:02 + (UTC)
"K. Fossil user"  wrote:

> Hi again,
> Ah I forgot something like this :
> "Your membership in the mailing list fossil-users has been disabled
> due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated
> 16-Oct-2016.  You will not get any more messages from this list until
> you re-enable your membership.  You will receive 3 more reminders like
> this before your membership in the list is deleted.
> "

I would check all of the e-mails you have received and compare them
with the archive on the mailing list site. It is possible that Yahoo is
blocking the e-mails due to much mail (anyone from a Yahoo address
will get a copy of the mails).

It is also possible that Yahoo is refusing some kinds of attachments,
which do appear in the mailing list, and is blocking those e-mails. If
none of your e-mails from the mailing list have attachments then I
would suggest you go to your subscription settings for the mailing list
and disable attachments.

> When it comes to mailman... not astonished.
> The message one could read could be "Hey you hurt us !".Now I
> understand that the issue the other day is not fixed. The same in
> fact.

You should not attribute mail server communication issues as malice. If
the administrators wanted you gone they could outright ban and block
your e-mail address. That would be far more effective and more
efficient than recompiling the mail server to create fake bounce
notices on your account.
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