[Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
From: Keegan Peterzell keegan.w...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books Message-ID: CAELXKR+ZfmYr04K=gT_Kwu0SDDp0XTn53XfCY=bg7z2+b0a...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Ray Saintonge sainto...@telus.net wrote: I don't think that copying articles is the way to go. If the two projects have separate articles on the same subjects that's still a very good thing. They can still maintain their professional standards, whatever that means. The reader can compare the two and draw his own conclusions. I don't agree. Once copied back to Wikipedia the articles are open for continued editing and expanding- for better or worse. Then we have a comprehensive comparison between the article as it was when taken from Wikipedia, what it looked like when rewritten and given back, and the current state. It could make for an interesting paper. I don't think that the Catalan Wikipedia just protects the articles and leaves them as done, do they? Of course not. In addition if a work is in free license every wikipedian can decide whether copy or make a derivative work. The idea is that if they believe (or their marketing studies say) there is a market for an encyclopedia reviewed by professionals I think that this is not incompatible with free license. If it were published under a free license this opens them endless possibilities. Can copy and review articles in the same language version of Wikipedia or possible translations from other languages. Its value does not get lost by free licensing because when someone removes it from their website the content is no longer guaranteed to be controlled by their professional prestige. If we copied to wikipedia part of its content we were not damaging their profitability in the contrary generate traffic to their website that they know how turn in revenue. The Enciclopèdia Catalana case is unique. It was created on 1968 a very difficult historical period for Catalan. It was financed by voluntary contributions from individuals and private entities and they will continue having the support of Catalan society including my personal support if needed nothing farther from my intention than damaging them. In fact they are available for free online from several years ago. Their revenue (including other books and magazines) has fallen from 18 M € in 2003 to 12 M € in 2010 (I don't yet have data for 2011) but have been able to maintain profits around 1M € annually from 2004 instead of 7M € loses on 2003. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 5:14 AM, Joan Goma jrg...@gmail.com wrote: The idea is that if they believe (or their marketing studies say) there is a market for an encyclopedia reviewed by professionals I think that this is not incompatible with free license. If it were published under a free license this opens them endless possibilities. Can copy and review articles in the same language version of Wikipedia or possible translations from other languages. Its value does not get lost by free licensing because when someone removes it from their website the content is no longer guaranteed to be controlled by their professional prestige. If we copied to wikipedia part of its content we were not damaging their profitability in the contrary generate traffic to their website that they know how turn in revenue. The Enciclopèdia Catalana case is unique. It was created on 1968 a very difficult historical period for Catalan. It was financed by voluntary contributions from individuals and private entities and they will continue having the support of Catalan society including my personal support if needed nothing farther from my intention than damaging them. I absolutely understand and agree. Good idea for a project to have and utilize. -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
I think what you might be remembering is that they used to sell them via a sales force who went door to door. They announced a few years back that they were stopping that. --Original Message-- From: Yaroslav M. Blanter Sender: foundation-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List ReplyTo: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books Sent: 13 Mar 2012 22:58 On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:54:48 +, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: I thought they had already stopped... I'm sure I remember an announcement like this a year or two ago... does anyone know what it is I'm remembering? No, I think there were only like three big universal encyclopaedias still being printed (Britannica, Brockhaus, and Russian Encyclopaedia?), unless I am confusing things. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l Neil / QuiteUnusual@Wikibooks ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
From: Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Cc: Wikipedia list wikipedi...@lists.wikimedia.org, English Wikipedia wikie...@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printingbooks Message-ID: caatu9wk4dnyvgphphjsasg8+mxx3pqx5wj08n3n1an45d93...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 2010's 32-volume set will be its last. (Now I want to get one, to replace my old set!) Future versions will be digital only. http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/after-244-years-encyclopaedia-britannica-stops-the-presses/?smid=tw-nytimesseid=auto http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/mar/13/encyclopedia-britannica-halts-print-publication Britannica president Jorge Cauz notes that their revenue from the online encyclopedia was already 15x that of the print version -- 15% of their total, compared to 1%. Most of their revenue for years has come from other targeted educational materials. As he says in the Guardian, Today our digital database is much larger than what we can fit in the print set. And it is up to date because we can revise it within minutes anytime we need to, and we do it many times each day. SJ. Unfortunatelly they still not realize that if published using a free licence compatible with Wikipedeia their income would be even 15 times larger. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
I think what you might be remembering is that they used to sell them via a sales force who went door to door. They announced a few years back that they were stopping that. And, indeed, it was the reliance on the sales force that killed off Britannica in the late-80s/early-90s when Encarta came along... http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/greenstein/images/htm/Research/Cases/EncyclopaediaBritannica.pdf ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
Samuel Klein, 14/03/2012 03:00: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:58 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanterpute...@mccme.ru wrote: No, I think there were only like three big universal encyclopaedias still being printed (Britannica, Brockhaus, and Russian Encyclopaedia?), unless I am confusing things. There's also World Book in English, the biggest seller of print encyclopedias (aimed at high-school students). And Barsa in Portuguese. Treccani still publishes several reductions, in 1, 2, 3 or 10 volumes (+ digital version on USB drive). http://www.treccani.it/catalogo http://www.nuovatreccani.it They still use door-to-door selling to people who want something pretty to put on thei shelves. Nemo ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 03:00, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:58 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: No, I think there were only like three big universal encyclopaedias still being printed (Britannica, Brockhaus, and Russian Encyclopaedia?), unless I am confusing things. There's also World Book in English, the biggest seller of print encyclopedias (aimed at high-school students). And Barsa in Portuguese. And there are a few encyclopedias like Sarvavijnanakosam (in Malayalam) being written from the ground up for the first time, volume by volume... presumably they will print a copy of each volume for completion, even as they move their work online. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarvavijnanakosam http://mal.sarva.gov.in There is ~20 volumes Serbian Encyclopedia in progress, likely to be finished around 2050. I have no idea what would be the purpose of that paper encyclopedia at that time, but I know that it is getting significant money from Serbian authorities. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
Interesting news indeed. Lead's one to wonder when WMF will launch it's first printed encyclopaedia. Perhaps a 2013 Citation Needed edition is in the works? Russavia On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 6:49 AM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: 2010's 32-volume set will be its last. (Now I want to get one, to replace my old set!) Future versions will be digital only. http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/after-244-years-encyclopaedia-britannica-stops-the-presses/?smid=tw-nytimesseid=auto http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/mar/13/encyclopedia-britannica-halts-print-publication Britannica president Jorge Cauz notes that their revenue from the online encyclopedia was already 15x that of the print version -- 15% of their total, compared to 1%. Most of their revenue for years has come from other targeted educational materials. As he says in the Guardian, Today our digital database is much larger than what we can fit in the print set. And it is up to date because we can revise it within minutes anytime we need to, and we do it many times each day. SJ. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
On 14/03/12 13:17, Milos Rancic wrote: There is ~20 volumes Serbian Encyclopedia in progress, likely to be finished around 2050. I have no idea what would be the purpose of that Milos, please. It will likely be finished around 2025. paper encyclopedia at that time, but I know that it is getting significant money from Serbian authorities. Again, please. They only receive a quarter of million euros per year. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
On 14 Mar 2012, at 12:21, Russavia wrote: Interesting news indeed. Lead's one to wonder when WMF will launch it's first printed encyclopaedia. Perhaps a 2013 Citation Needed edition is in the works? Something like this: http://www.labnol.org/internet/wikipedia-printed-book/9136/ ? (And that's just ~400 FA's...) Mike ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
On 14 March 2012 12:50, Michael Peel michael.p...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: On 14 Mar 2012, at 12:21, Russavia wrote: Interesting news indeed. Lead's one to wonder when WMF will launch it's first printed encyclopaedia. Perhaps a 2013 Citation Needed edition is in the works? Something like this: http://www.labnol.org/internet/wikipedia-printed-book/9136/ ? (And that's just ~400 FA's...) I would say the Schools Wikipedia - Andrew Cates' DVD version. It's hugely popular with teachers around the world. - d. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
From: Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com On 14 March 2012 09:40, Joan Goma jrg...@gmail.com wrote: Unfortunatelly they still not realize that if published using a free licence compatible with Wikipedeia their income would be even 15 times larger. Would it? Can you explain how that business model would work? There are ways of making money by producing free content, but I can't quite see how it would work in this context. I tried to do the exercise with Enciclopèdia Catalana.[1] I couldn't fine tune the figures because they didn't gave me the details. But some rough calculations came from the following assumptions. Catalan Wikipedia has about 10 times more pageviews than them. If they use a free license and use a wiki then their professionals can copy our best articles and review them and we can copy their content. 7,8% of their page-views go there from Catalan Wikipedia. They have 350.000 articles and Catalan Wikipedia 360.000 but there are about 120.000 articles that are not the same. If we copy from them the articles we don't have then Catalan Wikipedia can grow to 480.000 articles suddenly and page-views can grow about 15%. Copied articles have to contain links to the source and acknowledge authors. Their traffic can easily be duplicated. So their balance is affected by: *Save costs by using free software. *Save costs and grow faster by reusing contents from wikipedia. *More than duplicate income from advertisement. *Possibility to increase their incomes from governmental aids and grants by publishing using free licenses. Summing up all this the impact in profits is huge. I tried to convince them one year ago but until now I have not succeeded. I think the main barrier is fear to some for profit company copying their content and exploiting it commercially like them. But don't worry. I can be very persistent. Sooner or later they will go out from the dark side of force. [1] http://www.enciclopedia.cat/fitxa_v2.jsp?NDCHEC=0030866 ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
On 03/14/12 2:29 PM, Joan Goma wrote: Catalan Wikipedia has about 10 times more pageviews than them. If they use a free license and use a wiki then their professionals can copy our best articles and review them and we can copy their content. 7,8% of their page-views go there from Catalan Wikipedia. They have 350.000 articles and Catalan Wikipedia 360.000 but there are about 120.000 articles that are not the same. If we copy from them the articles we don't have then Catalan Wikipedia can grow to 480.000 articles suddenly and page-views can grow about 15%. Copied articles have to contain links to the source and acknowledge authors. Their traffic can easily be duplicated. I don't think that copying articles is the way to go. If the two projects have separate articles on the same subjects that's still a very good thing. They can still maintain their professional standards, whatever that means. The reader can compare the two and draw his own conclusions. So their balance is affected by: *Save costs by using free software. *Save costs and grow faster by reusing contents from wikipedia. *More than duplicate income from advertisement. *Possibility to increase their incomes from governmental aids and grants by publishing using free licenses. Summing up all this the impact in profits is huge. I tried to convince them one year ago but until now I have not succeeded. I think the main barrier is fear to some for profit company copying their content and exploiting it commercially like them. Indeed! You are presenting them with a counter-intuitive business model. If they believe in an expert reviewed project they still have to market it that way. But don't worry. I can be very persistent. I've noticed. :-) Ray ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Ray Saintonge sainto...@telus.net wrote: I don't think that copying articles is the way to go. If the two projects have separate articles on the same subjects that's still a very good thing. They can still maintain their professional standards, whatever that means. The reader can compare the two and draw his own conclusions. I don't agree. Once copied back to Wikipedia the articles are open for continued editing and expanding- for better or worse. Then we have a comprehensive comparison between the article as it was when taken from Wikipedia, what it looked like when rewritten and given back, and the current state. It could make for an interesting paper. I don't think that the Catalan Wikipedia just protects the articles and leaves them as done, do they? -- ~Keegan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Keegan ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
[Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
2010's 32-volume set will be its last. (Now I want to get one, to replace my old set!) Future versions will be digital only. http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/after-244-years-encyclopaedia-britannica-stops-the-presses/?smid=tw-nytimesseid=auto http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/mar/13/encyclopedia-britannica-halts-print-publication Britannica president Jorge Cauz notes that their revenue from the online encyclopedia was already 15x that of the print version -- 15% of their total, compared to 1%. Most of their revenue for years has come from other targeted educational materials. As he says in the Guardian, Today our digital database is much larger than what we can fit in the print set. And it is up to date because we can revise it within minutes anytime we need to, and we do it many times each day. SJ. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
I thought they had already stopped... I'm sure I remember an announcement like this a year or two ago... does anyone know what it is I'm remembering? On 13 March 2012 22:49, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: 2010's 32-volume set will be its last. (Now I want to get one, to replace my old set!) Future versions will be digital only. http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/13/after-244-years-encyclopaedia-britannica-stops-the-presses/?smid=tw-nytimesseid=auto http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/mar/13/encyclopedia-britannica-halts-print-publication Britannica president Jorge Cauz notes that their revenue from the online encyclopedia was already 15x that of the print version -- 15% of their total, compared to 1%. Most of their revenue for years has come from other targeted educational materials. As he says in the Guardian, Today our digital database is much larger than what we can fit in the print set. And it is up to date because we can revise it within minutes anytime we need to, and we do it many times each day. SJ. ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:54:48 +, Thomas Dalton thomas.dal...@gmail.com wrote: I thought they had already stopped... I'm sure I remember an announcement like this a year or two ago... does anyone know what it is I'm remembering? No, I think there were only like three big universal encyclopaedias still being printed (Britannica, Brockhaus, and Russian Encyclopaedia?), unless I am confusing things. Cheers Yaroslav ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:58 PM, Yaroslav M. Blanter pute...@mccme.ru wrote: No, I think there were only like three big universal encyclopaedias still being printed (Britannica, Brockhaus, and Russian Encyclopaedia?), unless I am confusing things. There's also World Book in English, the biggest seller of print encyclopedias (aimed at high-school students). And Barsa in Portuguese. And there are a few encyclopedias like Sarvavijnanakosam (in Malayalam) being written from the ground up for the first time, volume by volume... presumably they will print a copy of each volume for completion, even as they move their work online. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarvavijnanakosam http://mal.sarva.gov.in SJ ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
Re: [Foundation-l] Stopping the presses: Britannica to stop printing books
On 14/03/12 11:22, phoebe ayers wrote: I've been asked to write a short editorial about this development from a Wikipedian's perspective and am curious about (and would love to include) other Wikimedian experiences -- did you use print encyclopedias as a kid? Was a love of print encyclopedias part of your motivation or interest in becoming a Wikipedian? Is there any value in them still? Will you miss it? We didn't have an Encyclopedia Britannica at home, it would have been much too expensive. However, we did have a 20-year-old copy of the World Book Encyclopedia, which was a hand-me-down from relatives whose children had left home. I used to take a random volume to my room for a week at a time, and leaf through the pages, looking for interesting articles. I wouldn't say that the print encyclopedia was part of my motivation for becoming a Wikipedian. I just have an appetite for general knowledge that was served by both. I don't miss print encyclopedias: today's internet is far better for satisfying my curiosity than any encyclopedia. -- Tim Starling ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
