Re: Reaching out to Amazon for credit?
Indeed, we are discussing using proprietary Amazon services here, and yet you chose to attack Ubuntu. Please at least keep your zeal relevant. Alex -- --Alex Launi ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Reaching out to Amazon for credit?
On 13-01-06 08:49 AM, Alex Launi wrote: Indeed, we are discussing using proprietary Amazon services here, and yet you chose to attack Ubuntu. Please at least keep your zeal relevant. What's a proprietary service? -- behdad http://behdad.org/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Reaching out to Amazon for credit?
Richard, I would appreciate if you didn't try to use every single opportunity that you had to speak negatively about other projects, Did you verify that accusation before you made it? You could not have, because it's false. Just yesterday Amazon was mentioned, but I did not talk about it. I campaign against Amazon on stallman.org, but I didn't raie it here. It would have been a tangent. The problem with Ubuntu is not a tangent. It is a disaster for free software. It threatens to lower free software to the level of the malware that we condemn. That issue, I raised. That issue, we must face. I tried to be brief, so I did not explain _why_ this is important. The article, http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.html, explains why, but it seems that is not enough. I will explain here. The FSF did not accuse based on a supposition. We carefully checked the reports about Ubuntu's conduct before we made a public statement. We talked with people at the FSF who had studied it. We talked with people at Canonical, too. When it was clear that they were really making a major Ubuntu feature into spyware, and they showed no willingness to change it, we pulled out all stops. But it is unfair to diminish every single Ubuntu contributor and every positive aspect of the distro just because you don't like a particular decision or aspect, which happens to be optional by the way. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ubuntu-spyware.html says nothing about _contributors_ to Ubuntu. It's not about them. It says nothing about people such as you who are associated with Ubuntu. It's not about them either. It's about Ubuntu. It's about Ubuntu's malicious functionality, spyware. This is egregious behavior, and it calls for the strongest response. If it is accepted as normal, others are likely to follow the same path! We must respond to this as to a shocking crime. Does Ubuntu have positive aspect? Does it have variants that don't include the spyware? They don't change the conclusion. Positive aspects can't excuse this crime. If Ubuntu is guilty only in some variants, that's still guilty. We must punish Ubuntu so hard that anyone else will think twice before following the same route -- and so that Ubuntu will either pull back or be totally discredited. However, a modified version of Ubuntu made by a different entity with an unrelated name is a separate case. We can judge each of these based on what it does. Thus, we do not criticize independent distros just for being based on Ubuntu. and quite frankly I see it more focused on asking people to remove Windows and Mac OS X than giving them reasons to install free software on its own merits. Of course! The idea of the GNU Project is that we want computing users to have freedom. We've been focusing on freedom for almost 30 years. Freedom is why we developed the GNU system. In particular, freedom is why we started GNOME. So when we say what is good about free software, we mostly talk about the freedom, about the fact that the users control the software and not vice versa. (Ubuntu GNU/Linux has problems in the freedom dimension too; see http://gnu.org/distros/common-distros.html.) However, we also talk about some issues of practical merits that are very important. For instance, we say that free software isn't malicious; it won't spy on you. Our special condemnation of Ubuntu is based on the software's practical demerit. Ironic that just when we start talking about free software based an issue of practical merits, you respond by criticizing us for not doing so. ;-} There are some things that we must not tolerate on any pretext. Spyware is one of them. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Reaching out to Amazon for credit?
Hi Richard, On Sun, Jan 6, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org wrote: The problem with Ubuntu is not a tangent. It is a disaster for free software. It threatens to lower free software to the level of the malware that we condemn. Ubuntu has brought GNOME and Linux to millions of people. It's about Ubuntu. It's about Ubuntu's malicious functionality, spyware. This is egregious behavior, and it calls for the strongest response. If it is accepted as normal, others are likely to follow the same path! We must respond to this as to a shocking crime. I don't know whether Ubuntu collects data about users or not. But the way that you brought it up on this thread - about Amazon - and then attack turn the thread into an anti-Ubuntu campaign is really not professional. It's not a way to gain followers or to convince GNOME fans to do anything about what you are saying. If you have an issue with Ubuntu, I think you should bring it up with the GNOME community. In a clearly defined thread of its own. You should also realize when you do so that a large portion of GNOME community members are Ubuntu users and that Canonical, the company behind Ubuntu, is a large GNOME contributor. I don't think the fact that Canonical is a large supporter of GNOME should change how you feel about what you do, I do think it should make you think twice about the motivation behind what they are doing and how you approach the GNOME community to affect any change you think is warranted. Being aware of the current situation can help make you more effective. Your mail about Ubuntu being spyware and malicious and the language you use about needing to be punished shows that you are not aware of the relationship/oneness between Ubuntu and GNOME contributors. Richard, I find your emails very rude. It is possible that someone as intelligent as you could send such insensitive and rude emails without meaning to, but you should know that I find your emails very rude and very ignorant of the situation and the relationships that exist. I choose to think that you mean to make the world a better place by promoting free software, but I think you are doing so in a way that alienates many people that would be supporters. Stormy ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Reaching out to Amazon for credit?
On Sun, January 6, 2013 9:20 pm, Richard Stallman wrote: There are some things that we must not tolerate on any pretext. Spyware is one of them. I agree with this sentiment, and am glad you are raising the issue. I liked the post you wrote, which I discuss with Bradley on our oggcast. To raise it here in this thread is definitely off topic, as others have said. I do think it's important to point out flaws in GNU/Linux distributions and the FSF serves its role well in that capacity. GNOME like all projects that are part of GNU is free software and can be used by anybody for any purpose. A lot of these communities have all sorts of participants, from hacker hobbyists to companies that sell various products around them, many of which involve proprietary software, spyware and all kinds of bad stuff. Our communities are stronger for having diverse participation, and the body of free software keeps growing because of this. Take GCC, for example. And the LGPL. What's important on the GNOME Foundations list is that you help us stay focused on GNOME and keeping it free. I hope Canonical does the right thing with Ubuntu going forward. It's right to call them out on it, but the GNOME foundations list isn't the venue for it unless for some reason GNOME starts including spyware too (which we won't!!). I also really hope that Canonical keeps contributing to help make GNOME better. karen ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Reaching out to Amazon for credit?
Indeed, we are discussing using proprietary Amazon services here, and yet you chose to attack Ubuntu. Please at least keep your zeal relevant. What's a proprietary service? That is a good question -- we have no accepted answer, and I am not sure there ought to be an answer. The ethical issues raised by services are different from those raised by programs, so I think it is potentially misleading to try to take terms such as free and proprietary, which are defined for programs, and apply them to services. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/network-services-arent-free-or-nonfree.html. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
