Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Thu, 2013-05-09 at 17:06 -0500, meg ford wrote: Hey Meg, On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Philip Van Hoof pvanh...@gnome.org wrote: On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:02 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: We are looking into changing our irc server name from irc.gimpnet.org to irc.gnome.org and looking for feedback. Why? Essentially, it's become problematic to have 'gimp' in the name of our server. To many, 'gimp' is an offensive term an given our dedication to a11y it seems counter-intuitive to have this name in our infrastructure. Yet another PCPOS in GNOME. When will this stop? Is there an end? Any? Yeah idk how PC it is to not use the term gimp. The US, where I live, has pretty strong free speech laws, but people don't use this term because it's too offensive. So I think this is kind of an I18n issue. However, GNOME's origin is partly Gtk+ (which even predates and from where GLib came). Gtk+'s origin is Gimp's toolkit. Gimp was ~ GNOME's first and or one of its first projects and actually sort of predates GNOME as a sort of ancestor of the project and this community. What we're discussing here is that for PC reasons, GNOME wants to tell its father that it is no longer its father. I think that's crazy. I'd be completely ok with adding a irc.gnome.org and perhaps even changing the MOTD of the IRC server to mention less GIMP and more GNOME. That's natural as indeed GNOME today stands on its own feet. But why remove the GimpNET domain? You don't have to use it if you don't like the word Gimp. GNOME is a heavy user of Gtk+ which stands for Gimp Toolkit. With this latest line of PC thinking, shouldn't GNOME also stop using Gtk+? You know, because Gtk+ has an 'offensive' name in its acronym. I think you're all taking this way way too far and I think its becoming POS, whatever people like Karen think about Code of Conducts (that I actually have helped write - go look up in the mailing list from what discussion 'Assume people mean well' came from and who the actors in the formation of that part were). Kind regards, Philip The proposal is to make irc.gnome.org be an DNS A record and we will continue to honor irc.gimpnet.org as a CNAME for one year in which case we will then remove it altogether. Gimpnet is cultural inheritance of GNOME, I think it's a bad idea to do this for that reason. Kind regards, Philip -- Philip Van Hoof Software developer Codeminded BVBA - http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
Hi Philip, On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 3:15 AM, Philip Van Hoof pvanh...@gnome.org wrote: On Thu, 2013-05-09 at 17:06 -0500, meg ford wrote: Hey Meg, On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Philip Van Hoof pvanh...@gnome.org wrote: On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:02 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: We are looking into changing our irc server name from irc.gimpnet.org to irc.gnome.org and looking for feedback. Why? Essentially, it's become problematic to have 'gimp' in the name of our server. To many, 'gimp' is an offensive term an given our dedication to a11y it seems counter-intuitive to have this name in our infrastructure. Yet another PCPOS in GNOME. When will this stop? Is there an end? Any? Yeah idk how PC it is to not use the term gimp. The US, where I live, has pretty strong free speech laws, but people don't use this term because it's too offensive. So I think this is kind of an I18n issue. However, GNOME's origin is partly Gtk+ (which even predates and from where GLib came). Gtk+'s origin is Gimp's toolkit. Gimp was ~ GNOME's first and or one of its first projects and actually sort of predates GNOME as a sort of ancestor of the project and this community. What we're discussing here is that for PC reasons, GNOME wants to tell its father that it is no longer its father. I think that's crazy. I'd be completely ok with adding a irc.gnome.org and perhaps even changing the MOTD of the IRC server to mention less GIMP and more GNOME. That's natural as indeed GNOME today stands on its own feet. But why remove the GimpNET domain? You don't have to use it if you don't like the word Gimp. GNOME is a heavy user of Gtk+ which stands for Gimp Toolkit. With this latest line of PC thinking, shouldn't GNOME also stop using Gtk+? You know, because Gtk+ has an 'offensive' name in its acronym. I think you're all taking this way way too far and I think its becoming POS, whatever people like Karen think about Code of Conducts (that I actually have helped write - go look up in the mailing list from what discussion 'Assume people mean well' came from and who the actors in the formation of that part were). In general when people use the term PC in the US, they are talking about being adopting extra careful/ newly coined language. That's not what I'm saying. You wouldn't use the term gimp when talking to someone unless you wanted to indicate that you hate them or had were trying to start a fight. There isn't anything pc about not using such a term. You would only use it if you were specifically trying to offend someone. Just to clarify, are you saying that it's pc to say we shouldn't use derogatory epithets, or are you disagreeing with my assessment of the word? I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. We aren't getting rid of it entirely because it's specifically offensive there, but not everywhere. I would guess that gimp isn't offensive in languages other than English since we are only hearing about this from English speakers. In the case of the GIMP I can see why they a name change would be really problematic and potentially harm the project. In the case of GNOME irc I think don't see that there is an issue wrt making the change. However, maybe that's because I speak English. But since English is the official language of the project, so maybe it's important to consider making a change. What do you think? Meg Kind regards, Philip The proposal is to make irc.gnome.org be an DNS A record and we will continue to honor irc.gimpnet.org as a CNAME for one year in which case we will then remove it altogether. Gimpnet is cultural inheritance of GNOME, I think it's a bad idea to do this for that reason. Kind regards, Philip -- Philip Van Hoof Software developer Codeminded BVBA - http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
Hi Philip, On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Philip Van Hoof pvanh...@gnome.org wrote: On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 08:55 -0500, meg ford wrote: Hi Meg, In general when people use the term PC in the US, they are talking about being adopting extra careful/ newly coined language. That's not what I'm saying. You wouldn't use the term gimp when talking to someone unless you wanted to indicate that you hate them or had were trying to start a fight. There isn't anything pc about not using such a term. You would only use it if you were specifically trying to offend someone. Just to clarify, are you saying that it's pc to say we shouldn't use derogatory epithets, or are you disagreeing with my assessment of the word? Note that I didn't say irc.gnome.org is a bad idea. Removing Gimpnet is a bad idea (I don't think that real gimps join Gimpnet to be a jerk on the IRC server, if that's truly the case then a solution for that would be to either ban those people or to lock their discussions in a IRC channel on that server). The common meaning of the term is a derogatory term for physically disabled people. Your comment above makes no sense. I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. We aren't getting rid of it entirely because it's specifically offensive there, but not everywhere. I would guess that gimp isn't offensive in languages other than English since we are only hearing about this from English speakers. In the case of the GIMP I can see why they a name change would be really problematic and potentially harm the project. In the case of GNOME irc I think don't see that there is an issue wrt making the change. However, maybe that's because I speak English. But since English is the official language of the project, so maybe it's important to consider making a change. What do you think? I think GNOME should introduce irc.gnome.org and alter the IRC server's MOTD but shouldn't remove the irc.gimpnet.org domain. I'm not certain that this should be done because of derogative terms like the word gimp, but rather because GNOME is GNOME, not GIMP, and it's misleading to have to connect to irc.gimpnet.org to talk to GNOME developers. I honestly think the name is crass, but I didn't introduce this idea so I will let Sri defend it from here on. Meg Kind regards, Philip The proposal is to make irc.gnome.org be an DNS A record and we will continue to honor irc.gimpnet.org as a CNAME for one year in which case we will then remove it altogether. Gimpnet is cultural inheritance of GNOME, I think it's a bad idea to do this for that reason. Kind regards, Philip -- Philip Van Hoof Software developer Codeminded BVBA - http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
This once was a discussion about technical things: IRC and DNS. Part of it turned into names of some stuff can be offensive in some languages, and the usual arguments apply that are known already from https://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue . As I don't expect any new findings or arguments, I should force myself to ignore any further postings, and recommend the same to anybody else. Alright then, andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
Seriously, can everyone relax and not take every little detail so seriously? I'm all for advertising irc.gnome.org in our websites etc. But there's really no need to take down DNS entries and whatnot. On 10 May 2013 15:55, meg ford meg...@gmail.com wrote: I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. And this why you can't ever win. There will always be something that's offensive for someone in this planet so yeah just don't bother too much. If someone you're speaking to takes it offensively you can certainly explain why the name is how it is. People aren't stupid and will understand. And btw, if you have to speak about the GIMP you can also pronounce it as /ʒɪmp/ instead of /gɪmp/ or just spell it out G I M P. Cheers, Rui ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:02 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: To many, 'gimp' is an offensive term an given our dedication to a11y it seems counter-intuitive to have this name in our infrastructure. I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people (which I guess is what you're getting at[1]). What made you think that there was a connection between those 2 uses of the word? Cheers [1]: Rather than people who might need a11y technologies, which is pretty much everyone (keyboard on touchscreen, text sizes, inverse colours, etc.) ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On 05/10/2013 10:17 AM, Rui Tiago Cação Matos wrote: Seriously, can everyone relax and not take every little detail so seriously? I'm all for advertising irc.gnome.org in our websites etc. But there's really no need to take down DNS entries and whatnot. It's sort of odd for a member of a software organization to advocate being less serious about details. We have a bug tracker because details matter. Asking others to relax implies that other people are working too hard or caring too much about an issue, as though it is unimportant. Different issues are important to different people and it's a bit annoying to be told to relax about what matters to you. On 10 May 2013 15:55, meg ford meg...@gmail.com wrote: I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. And this why you can't ever win. There will always be something that's offensive for someone in this planet so yeah just don't bother too much. If by win you mean get a special permanent I AM NOT OFFENSIVE designation from the United Nations, no, you can't win. However, as a person deciding where to spend my time and what organizations to take seriously, I will say that organizations that make some efforts to act sensitively win my time and attention. And communities that act as though one person complaining deserves exactly the same amount of effort as lots of people backing a reasonable proposal -- that is, zero effort -- do lose my willingness to help out. If someone you're speaking to takes it offensively you can certainly explain why the name is how it is. People aren't stupid and will understand. You are presuming that the only time the GIMP comes up is in one-on-one conversations where the other person feels totally comfortable saying I don't like that name to one of us, who will take all the time necessary to help the other person feel comfortable. That's a pretty rare use case. Usually it's in signage, the IRC network name, and other places where the other person may just make the very understandable choice to just walk away. Or it's in a group, or a conference, or something like that where - instead of making a fuss - some of our potential users and community members just make a mental note not to bother even trying to use our software or help out. Does that help you see why it's not enough to just be willing to explain this is why our software and IRC network seem to be named after the slur bullies call your brother in school, on the street, and while rejecting him for jobs? And btw, if you have to speak about the GIMP you can also pronounce it as /ʒɪmp/ instead of /gɪmp/ or just spell it out G I M P. I will probably use that pronunciation when possible. Thanks for the idea. Cheers, Rui best, Sumana -- Sumana Harihareswara http://www.harihareswara.net/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people (which I guess is what you're getting at[1]). What made you think that there was a connection between those 2 uses of the word? I was aware of the connotation, but until earlier this thread I've been able to excuse it by saying no, it's just an acronym[1]. If what Liam says is true and it was named after the film character, it's precisely the same use of the word. Mike [1]: I'm conditioned to separate the software from the common usage, but my wife reacted with distaste when I installed it on her iMac. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 16:47 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: On 10 May 2013 15:55, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people If it helps, I've never heard the word used this way either. However, my understanding of the common use of the word isn't any better (warning; possibly NSFW): https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gimp+masktbm=isch I think a majority of people on this list will be familiar with Pulp Fiction ;) And I wasn't arguing that GIMP is a nice name, it's just that I don't understand the reasoning enunciated in the original e-mail. Saying I don't want GNOME to be associated with SM leather bound dudes is better than (possibly) creating connections that don't exist between 2 words. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, May 10, 2013 10:55 am, Bastien Nocera wrote: On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:02 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: To many, 'gimp' is an offensive term an given our dedication to a11y it seems counter-intuitive to have this name in our infrastructure. I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people (which I guess is what you're getting at[1]). What made you think that there was a connection between those 2 uses of the word? To chime in here as another US-based native english speaker, I've come across the negative reaction more than once in the past when telling people to join us on GIMPNet and also when talking to newcomers about what other awesome free software is available for them to use. It's a connection that I think people naturally make, as the word is a well known slur. Since for GNOME it's out of context to anyone who doesn't know about the GIMP and the historical relationship with GNOME, I think it can make people unnecessarily uncomfortable. karen Cheers [1]: Rather than people who might need a11y technologies, which is pretty much everyone (keyboard on touchscreen, text sizes, inverse colours, etc.) ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
Hi Bastien, On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 16:47 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: On 10 May 2013 15:55, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people If it helps, I've never heard the word used this way either. However, my understanding of the common use of the word isn't any better (warning; possibly NSFW): https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gimp+masktbm=isch I think a majority of people on this list will be familiar with Pulp Fiction ;) And I wasn't arguing that GIMP is a nice name, it's just that I don't understand the reasoning enunciated in the original e-mail. Saying I don't want GNOME to be associated with SM leather bound dudes is better than (possibly) creating connections that don't exist between 2 words. That isn't the common meaning of the word, though. SM players use it specifically because it's offensive. Which is fine in their context (let's not debate it, at least, TMI), where it is understood that it is not real life and is never directed at someone who is not consenting. The general meaning of the term irl is a slur. Meg ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Karen Sandler ka...@gnome.org wrote: Since for GNOME it's out of context to anyone who doesn't know about the GIMP and the historical relationship with GNOME, I think it can make people unnecessarily uncomfortable. This actually makes an excellent argument for irc.gnome.org independent from any connotations of the word gimp - to people who know about GNOME but not its relationship with the GIMP, join us on irc.gnome.org is an easily memorizable instruction, join us on irc.gimp.net is not. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 10:57 -0500, meg ford wrote: Hi Bastien, On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 16:47 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: On 10 May 2013 15:55, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people If it helps, I've never heard the word used this way either. However, my understanding of the common use of the word isn't any better (warning; possibly NSFW): https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gimp+masktbm=isch I think a majority of people on this list will be familiar with Pulp Fiction ;) And I wasn't arguing that GIMP is a nice name, it's just that I don't understand the reasoning enunciated in the original e-mail. Saying I don't want GNOME to be associated with SM leather bound dudes is better than (possibly) creating connections that don't exist between 2 words. That isn't the common meaning of the word, though. SM players use it specifically because it's offensive. Which is fine in their context (let's not debate it, at least, TMI), where it is understood that it is not real life and is never directed at someone who is not consenting. The general meaning of the term irl is a slur. I'll note that this still doesn't answer my question. If somebody has access to a dictionary with good etymology, I'd like them to clue me in... ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 12:24 AM, Sumana Harihareswara suma...@panix.com wrote: On 05/10/2013 10:17 AM, Rui Tiago Cação Matos wrote: Seriously, can everyone relax and not take every little detail so seriously? I'm all for advertising irc.gnome.org in our websites etc. But there's really no need to take down DNS entries and whatnot. It's sort of odd for a member of a software organization to advocate being less serious about details. We have a bug tracker because details matter. Asking others to relax implies that other people are working too hard or caring too much about an issue, as though it is unimportant. Different issues are important to different people and it's a bit annoying to be told to relax about what matters to you. On 10 May 2013 15:55, meg ford meg...@gmail.com wrote: I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. And this why you can't ever win. There will always be something that's offensive for someone in this planet so yeah just don't bother too much. If by win you mean get a special permanent I AM NOT OFFENSIVE designation from the United Nations, no, you can't win. However, as a person deciding where to spend my time and what organizations to take seriously, I will say that organizations that make some efforts to act sensitively win my time and attention. See here is a very interesting conflict. Some of us think that we should be very careful about what words we choose to represent GNOME, to the point of even renaming things in GNOME because someone might be offended. Like it or not, the decisions we make at this scope has an undertone, what is appropriate for an IRC network name, eventually becomes what is appropriate for a program name, or even a program's release name, and eventually what is appropriate to write in emails on our mailing lists and what is appropriate to post in our blogs. One the one hand, you have the theory that being very careful is an attitude which makes GNOME appear more welcoming, and on the other hand, being very careful is exactly the opposite. Would you like to join a community where everything you say is under strict scrutiny ? where you cannot freely express yourself in your blog without being really careful to make all of your comments gender neutral and politically correct ? Or would you rather be a part of a community where people are a bit more relaxed and laid back, where you can just be yourself, express yourself freely, assume that people mean well and not be afraid that you will be accused for expressing yourself in a way that might be misconstrued ? If one were to say that irc.gimp.net refers to 'gimp' and is intentionally rude, that would definitely count as misconstrued, do we really want to set an example to gnome contributors that anything they say in our public infrastructure might be frowned upon, just because it could be taken out of context in some way ? Personally I am (obviously) of the camp which would rather have a relaxed and laid back attitude. Cheers, -Tristan And communities that act as though one person complaining deserves exactly the same amount of effort as lots of people backing a reasonable proposal -- that is, zero effort -- do lose my willingness to help out. If someone you're speaking to takes it offensively you can certainly explain why the name is how it is. People aren't stupid and will understand. You are presuming that the only time the GIMP comes up is in one-on-one conversations where the other person feels totally comfortable saying I don't like that name to one of us, who will take all the time necessary to help the other person feel comfortable. That's a pretty rare use case. Usually it's in signage, the IRC network name, and other places where the other person may just make the very understandable choice to just walk away. Or it's in a group, or a conference, or something like that where - instead of making a fuss - some of our potential users and community members just make a mental note not to bother even trying to use our software or help out. Does that help you see why it's not enough to just be willing to explain this is why our software and IRC network seem to be named after the slur bullies call your brother in school, on the street, and while rejecting him for jobs? And btw, if you have to speak about the GIMP you can also pronounce it as /ʒɪmp/ instead of /gɪmp/ or just spell it out G I M P. I will probably use that pronunciation when possible. Thanks for the idea. Cheers, Rui best, Sumana -- Sumana Harihareswara http://www.harihareswara.net/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, 2013-05-11 at 01:27 +0900, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: Would you like to join a community where everything you say is under strict scrutiny ? where you cannot freely express yourself in your blog without being really careful to make all of your comments gender neutral and politically correct ? Or would you prefer to join a community where you're made fun of on a routine basis, mocked, ridiculed, made to feel like shit, because you were born with one leg shorter than the other, or you were in a bomb blast and got injured? What if we start jabber.gnomefags.com? or a message that says, It's gone Dutch when a device can't be mounted? Because some undergraduate thought it was funny in their dorm room to throw stones out of the window at the people who have to walk slowly. You can express yourself in your blog as freely as you like, subject to local laws, but if you claim to -- or are seen to -- represent the GNOME project as a whole then yes, you have a responsibility to be respectful of others in that context. The problem is the way labels are used in some cultures as a way to exclude and discriminate against people - a practice that's so entrenched in US (and UK) culture (for example) that there are laws about it. This may be a cultural difference itself that doesn't translate into all other languages, I'm not sure. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 2:07 AM, Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net wrote: On Sat, 2013-05-11 at 01:27 +0900, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: Would you like to join a community where everything you say is under strict scrutiny ? where you cannot freely express yourself in your blog without being really careful to make all of your comments gender neutral and politically correct ? Or would you prefer to join a community where you're made fun of on a routine basis, mocked, ridiculed, made to feel like shit, because you were born with one leg shorter than the other, or you were in a bomb blast and got injured? I think you are exaggerating, to the extreme, even. You are suggesting that people should take things out of context, misinterpret the GIMP acronym, and be offended. You seem to even suggest that the name GIMP is intentionally offensive. The GIMP, is, and always has been to my knowledge, the GNU Image Manipulation Program: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIMP What if we start jabber.gnomefags.com? or a message that says, It's gone Dutch when a device can't be mounted? Because some undergraduate thought it was funny in their dorm room to throw stones out of the window at the people who have to walk slowly. You can express yourself in your blog as freely as you like, subject to local laws, but if you claim to -- or are seen to -- represent the GNOME project as a whole then yes, you have a responsibility to be respectful of others in that context. And the plot thickens. If your blog is aggregated on planet.gnome.org, one could say that you are representing GNOME. One could even say that referring to the GNU Image Manipulation Program in your blog is offensive... just because some people might misinterpret what you said as something they understand as offensive. This is going a bit far, I think. To be clear, I do think that we should try not to offend each other, I just don't think that we should expect that others will misconstrue what we've said as something offensive, and I don't think that we should scare off our contributors, those who would represent GNOME in public, by holding them/us to such strict standards. Cheers, -Tristan The problem is the way labels are used in some cultures as a way to exclude and discriminate against people - a practice that's so entrenched in US (and UK) culture (for example) that there are laws about it. This may be a cultural difference itself that doesn't translate into all other languages, I'm not sure. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On 05/10/2013 12:27 PM, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 12:24 AM, Sumana Harihareswara suma...@panix.com wrote: On 05/10/2013 10:17 AM, Rui Tiago Cação Matos wrote: Seriously, can everyone relax and not take every little detail so seriously? I'm all for advertising irc.gnome.org in our websites etc. But there's really no need to take down DNS entries and whatnot. It's sort of odd for a member of a software organization to advocate being less serious about details. We have a bug tracker because details matter. Asking others to relax implies that other people are working too hard or caring too much about an issue, as though it is unimportant. Different issues are important to different people and it's a bit annoying to be told to relax about what matters to you. On 10 May 2013 15:55, meg ford meg...@gmail.com wrote: I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. And this why you can't ever win. There will always be something that's offensive for someone in this planet so yeah just don't bother too much. If by win you mean get a special permanent I AM NOT OFFENSIVE designation from the United Nations, no, you can't win. However, as a person deciding where to spend my time and what organizations to take seriously, I will say that organizations that make some efforts to act sensitively win my time and attention. See here is a very interesting conflict. Some of us think that we should be very careful about what words we choose to represent GNOME, to the point of even renaming things in GNOME because someone might be offended. It's not just because there might exist one who is offended, it's about not being improper. Like it or not, the decisions we make at this scope has an undertone, what is appropriate for an IRC network name, eventually becomes what is appropriate for a program name, or even a program's release name, and eventually what is appropriate to write in emails on our mailing lists and what is appropriate to post in our blogs. Already there is a spectrum of what is and is not appropriate. It's not appropriate, for example, to name projects in ways that allude to abortion, the holocaust, slavery etc. GNOME is a Free Software community, and should stick to that. One the one hand, you have the theory that being very careful is an attitude which makes GNOME appear more welcoming, and on the other hand, being very careful is exactly the opposite. It makes GNOME more welcoming to some people, while simultaneously asking more of others. Would you like to join a community where everything you say is under strict scrutiny ? where you cannot freely express yourself in your blog without being really careful to make all of your comments gender neutral and politically correct ? This is the Internet. Everything you say is public and subject to strict scrutiny. Again there is a spectrum of what is and is not appropriate. The topic at hand is really getting at where to delineate this spectrum -- who gets to say what is appropriate, and whose sensibilities are taken into account. Or would you rather be a part of a community where people are a bit more relaxed and laid back, where you can just be yourself, express yourself freely, assume that people mean well and not be afraid that you will be accused for expressing yourself in a way that might be misconstrued ? If I was a casual racist, sexist, ableist, etc. it would probably be easiest to fit in a community that did not recognize such things as problematic. Should GNOME be yet another space for these people to fit in without being questioned, or should GNOME push its community to become better? If one were to say that irc.gimp.net refers to 'gimp' and is intentionally rude, that would definitely count as misconstrued, do we really want to set an example to gnome contributors that anything they say in our public infrastructure might be frowned upon, just because it could be taken out of context in some way ? It's not taken out of context, it's just inappropriate. Replace 'gimp' with a racial slur, and it may be easier to understand. We want to set an example that GNOME strives to be socially conscious and inclusive of all walks of life. Personally I am (obviously) of the camp which would rather have a relaxed and laid back attitude. relaxed seems to me to mean unchallenged. If the wrong aren't challenged, this is a problem. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fr, 2013-05-10 at 11:55 -0400, Karen Sandler wrote: I've come across the negative reaction more than once in the past when telling people to join us on GIMPNet One time on #gnome on freenode somebody was asking a11y specific questions for his quadriplegic friend and I redirected him to #a11y on irc.gnome.org. When he saw that the networks name was GIMPNet he got really furious and accused me of tricking him to connect to something called GIMPNet just to make fun of him and his friend. So in the case of a11y the network name is really really unfortunate and given GNOME's a11y efforts it should be reason enough to change the network name. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Change in affiliation
hi all; in compliance with the Foundation's charter, here's the notification that my affiliation has changed: I now work for Endless Mobile. ciao, Emmanuele. -- W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.name B: http://blogs.gnome.org/ebassi/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Hashem Nasarat hnasa...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/10/2013 12:27 PM, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 12:24 AM, Sumana Harihareswara suma...@panix.com wrote: On 05/10/2013 10:17 AM, Rui Tiago Cação Matos wrote: Seriously, can everyone relax and not take every little detail so seriously? I'm all for advertising irc.gnome.org in our websites etc. But there's really no need to take down DNS entries and whatnot. It's sort of odd for a member of a software organization to advocate being less serious about details. We have a bug tracker because details matter. Asking others to relax implies that other people are working too hard or caring too much about an issue, as though it is unimportant. Different issues are important to different people and it's a bit annoying to be told to relax about what matters to you. On 10 May 2013 15:55, meg ford meg...@gmail.com wrote: I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. And this why you can't ever win. There will always be something that's offensive for someone in this planet so yeah just don't bother too much. If by win you mean get a special permanent I AM NOT OFFENSIVE designation from the United Nations, no, you can't win. However, as a person deciding where to spend my time and what organizations to take seriously, I will say that organizations that make some efforts to act sensitively win my time and attention. See here is a very interesting conflict. Some of us think that we should be very careful about what words we choose to represent GNOME, to the point of even renaming things in GNOME because someone might be offended. It's not just because there might exist one who is offended, it's about not being improper. But how do you define improper ? Below you make the argument that there is a 'spectrum' of what 'is' or 'is not' proper. Defining a spectrum for what is 'proper' or not, based on content alone, is going to leave little room for grey area, and little room for any expression at all. Saying anything at all becomes like walking in a mine field (maybe political leaders have to stoop to this level of political correctness, but I don't think an open community of free software enthusiasts signed up for this). I hope you recognize at least that this expectation from our contributors is something that seriously raises the bar of entry (as specially since we can't expect that most contributors even speak english as a first language, or that people will just 'know' what content is 'proper' or not). My opinion is only that 'properness' of content (be it something that someone expressed, or the name of something) should be judged for it's intent and in context, not just for the content itself. Example: when we are a the zoo in South America... I can say let's go see the monkeys, even though in parts of South America the term 'monkey' can be a harsh racist term. People have common sense, they know that since we are at the zoo, there actually are monkeys to go see. Best Regards, -Tristan Like it or not, the decisions we make at this scope has an undertone, what is appropriate for an IRC network name, eventually becomes what is appropriate for a program name, or even a program's release name, and eventually what is appropriate to write in emails on our mailing lists and what is appropriate to post in our blogs. Already there is a spectrum of what is and is not appropriate. It's not appropriate, for example, to name projects in ways that allude to abortion, the holocaust, slavery etc. GNOME is a Free Software community, and should stick to that. One the one hand, you have the theory that being very careful is an attitude which makes GNOME appear more welcoming, and on the other hand, being very careful is exactly the opposite. It makes GNOME more welcoming to some people, while simultaneously asking more of others. Would you like to join a community where everything you say is under strict scrutiny ? where you cannot freely express yourself in your blog without being really careful to make all of your comments gender neutral and politically correct ? This is the Internet. Everything you say is public and subject to strict scrutiny. Again there is a spectrum of what is and is not appropriate. The topic at hand is really getting at where to delineate this spectrum -- who gets to say what is appropriate, and whose sensibilities are taken into account. Or would you rather be a part of a community where people are a bit more relaxed and laid back, where you can just be yourself, express yourself freely, assume that people mean well and not be afraid that you will be accused for expressing yourself in a way that might be misconstrued ? If I was a casual racist, sexist, ableist, etc. it would probably be easiest to fit in a community that did not recognize such things
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
I'm just jumping into this conversation as I only just now spotted it. So I'm not responding directly to any one particular post, but making a general statement. As an accessibility user, and noting that GNOME is known for being a world leader in open source accessibility and has often made accessibility its selling point for adoption in large environments, it has always been a really really odd experience for me to then tell a new user who might be using accessibility software Come visit us on IRC and log into gimpnet. I'm always following that with an immediate apology, disclaimer, and explanation of its roots. And while some here might thing its just a U.S. thing I've encountered people being offended or puzzled by the use of gimp even in other countries. This is certainly not a local issue. And I'm always puzzled why it is often those who slam political-correctness when it is not THEM who are directly affected or alienated by an issue. I have no problems with keeping gimpnet in the background but publicly advertising gnome.org. It is a fair compromise between social and technical issues. And I commend Sriram for starting this conversation which has popped up far too often in many circles over the years. It is time to address it and demonstrate that GNOME is a leader in accessibility not just technologically but also socially. Bryen M Yunashko On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 11:24 -0400, Sumana Harihareswara wrote: On 05/10/2013 10:17 AM, Rui Tiago Cação Matos wrote: Seriously, can everyone relax and not take every little detail so seriously? I'm all for advertising irc.gnome.org in our websites etc. But there's really no need to take down DNS entries and whatnot. It's sort of odd for a member of a software organization to advocate being less serious about details. We have a bug tracker because details matter. Asking others to relax implies that other people are working too hard or caring too much about an issue, as though it is unimportant. Different issues are important to different people and it's a bit annoying to be told to relax about what matters to you. On 10 May 2013 15:55, meg ford meg...@gmail.com wrote: I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. And this why you can't ever win. There will always be something that's offensive for someone in this planet so yeah just don't bother too much. If by win you mean get a special permanent I AM NOT OFFENSIVE designation from the United Nations, no, you can't win. However, as a person deciding where to spend my time and what organizations to take seriously, I will say that organizations that make some efforts to act sensitively win my time and attention. And communities that act as though one person complaining deserves exactly the same amount of effort as lots of people backing a reasonable proposal -- that is, zero effort -- do lose my willingness to help out. If someone you're speaking to takes it offensively you can certainly explain why the name is how it is. People aren't stupid and will understand. You are presuming that the only time the GIMP comes up is in one-on-one conversations where the other person feels totally comfortable saying I don't like that name to one of us, who will take all the time necessary to help the other person feel comfortable. That's a pretty rare use case. Usually it's in signage, the IRC network name, and other places where the other person may just make the very understandable choice to just walk away. Or it's in a group, or a conference, or something like that where - instead of making a fuss - some of our potential users and community members just make a mental note not to bother even trying to use our software or help out. Does that help you see why it's not enough to just be willing to explain this is why our software and IRC network seem to be named after the slur bullies call your brother in school, on the street, and while rejecting him for jobs? And btw, if you have to speak about the GIMP you can also pronounce it as /ʒɪmp/ instead of /gɪmp/ or just spell it out G I M P. I will probably use that pronunciation when possible. Thanks for the idea. Cheers, Rui best, Sumana ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Tristan Van Berkom t...@gnome.org wrote: People have common sense, they know that since we are at the zoo, there actually are monkeys to go see. Tristan, your analogy should have been based on a word whose legitimate use did *not* precede its use as an epithet. If the original authors of the software knew the meaning of the word and chose it anyway, who am I to excuse the name as anything better than an unfortunate choice? I agree with you about not getting carried away. However, in light of the fact that the target group of the slur is one of the target groups for GNOME, your defense seems misplaced. Mike ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
