Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Hi, On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:27 AM, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.mewrote: As is available on the page referenced in every communication about the removal of fallback? https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointSeven/Features/DropOrFixFallbackMode If people skip reading it intentionally, they'll only see the headline and make their (uninformed) comments. This is pretty much what happened. Yeah, but the name of the feature is Drop or Fix Fallback Mode, not New Features that make Fallback Mode Unnecessary for Many Users.(or however you want to put it). How can you then blame people for focusing *only* on the fact that we are, well, *dropping fallback mode?* * * Meg Ford That's pretty much what was happening. People read the headline and then think GNOME is getting rid of features and then start grumbling again. The whole GNOME is removing stuff is a widespread meme that just propagates. A lot from people still angry from the 1.0 days I think. I sometimes vacillate from get over it to trying to explain the situation. It depends on how deep the thread is. :-) ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
2012/11/15 Karen Sandler ka...@gnome.org On Thu, November 15, 2012 2:39 pm, William Jon McCann wrote: Hi Karen, I think these are good suggestions. But I think it would be a mistake to leave this critical responsibility to a committee of volunteers. One of the many challenges we face is that our voice and message have been too inconsistent - too infrequently heard. Heard too late. Lacking authority. In want of good taste. And dealing with this is taking a huge toll on our ability to attract and retain contributors. Something needs to be done. I propose that we hire or appoint a full time director of marketing. This is a great idea! And I agree that this is a major area of need for us. Given the GNOME Foundation finances, it probably is also worth considering someone part-time (especially if there is a team of volunteers that can be trained and directed by such a person) or thinking creatively about fundraising for the position. I think the GNOME project must listen its users rather than trying to sell products. I already see the headlines GNOME foundation hires a director of marketing to defend its brand ... and the associated flame wars. It's not acceptable after 3 iterations to ignore/reject the most frequent complaints (I don't want to list them here...). If we need a marketing director to convince people to use GNOME, we failed. Stéphane ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Mon, 2012-11-19 at 17:57 +0100, Stéphane Raimbault wrote: It's not acceptable after 3 iterations to ignore/reject the most frequent complaints (I don't want to list them here...). I don't believe in design by committee. Software development is not a popularity contest. Also, some questionable decisions have been reverted (I don't want to list them here...). andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On 11/19/2012 08:57 AM, Stéphane Raimbault wrote: If we need a marketing director to convince people to use GNOME, we failed. This is a cute statement, but is it really true? The people that could most benefit from our choice to build a simple to use system are those that are least likely to discover it on their own. As engineers, we often have a visceral reaction to the term marketing. That doesn't need to be the case. -- Christian ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Hi, I hope it's slightly better handled than Emily last 2 posts, which managed to say that the removal of fallback was badly communicated (!) without details of what was done wrong, I think it would have made a hell of a lot more sense to announce that there were significant improvements made to llvm pipe, and then explain that we were planning to drop fallback mode. That way we would have given credit to ourselves as a community for thinking about how users would be effected by the change, and then we could have gone on to explain why the change was necessary. That's my two cents. Meg Ford and used a blog post by a troll to make false assertions about GTK+ 3.x's API stability. You might want to vouch for your community managers before you let them loose... ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Em Sun, 2012-11-18 às 23:39 -0600, meg ford escreveu: Hi, I hope it's slightly better handled than Emily last 2 posts, which managed to say that the removal of fallback was badly communicated (!) without details of what was done wrong, I think it would have made a hell of a lot more sense to announce that there were significant improvements made to llvm pipe, and then explain that we were planning to drop fallback mode. That way we would have given credit to ourselves as a community for thinking about how users would be effected by the change, and then we could have gone on to explain why the change was necessary. As is available on the page referenced in every communication about the removal of fallback? https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointSeven/Features/DropOrFixFallbackMode If people skip reading it intentionally, they'll only see the headline and make their (uninformed) comments. This is pretty much what happened. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
I think that overall, what GNU could do to change it is figure out what are the LLVM guys doing to be such an attractive compiler platform compared to GCC. LLVM is a compiler platform, it gives you many APIs and reusable components that you can use at different levels, We might be able to do some of these things in GCC -- but we would need people to implement these languages. Does GCC have front ends for them? I don't know. Would anyone here like to write them? I don't know if it supports GPU code either. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Thu, 2012-11-15 at 23:54 -0500, Chris Leonard wrote: On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: On Thu, 2012-11-15 at 08:40 -0500, Chris Leonard wrote: On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 5:39 AM, Alan Cox a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote: If you've got a fast CPU and reasonable but unusupported graphics hardware then it's usable but not great. No idea what Gnome 3 is like on a Raspberry Pi which would be the most useful other guide as its got fairly snappy graphics but naff CPU and relatively limited memory (512MB now) I suggest keeping an eye on the OLPC hardware as a low-end hardware benchmark for the GNOME desktop. As for market share there are over 2 million XO-1 and XO-1.5 out there and AFAICT the ARM based XO-1.75 is shipping and the touchscreen enabled XO-4 (in may ways similar to the XO-1.75) is on the way soon (FWIW ,I like the prototype I test on). OLPC builds are dual boot in Sugar and GNOME and I would love for GNOME to consider these users in their decision making. Have you shipped GNOME 3 on any of those, and, if so, were you using GNOME fallback or GNOME shell? You can see the packages used for x86 and ARM builds respectively, for the most recent development build from OLPC http://build.laptop.org/13.1.0/os11/xo-1/31011o0.packages.txt http://build.laptop.org/13.1.0/os11/xo-4/31011o4.packages.txt These are basically Fedora 17 (or 18) spins. I can't really answer the fallback or shell question as I do not fully understand the details. Do they have OpenGL acceleration available? You say that we should consider them in our decision making, but the majority (all?) of us don't have access to them, so we rely on people like you telling us about those things. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Hi, On 11/16/2012 11:43 AM, Bastien Nocera wrote: On Thu, 2012-11-15 at 23:54 -0500, Chris Leonard wrote: http://build.laptop.org/13.1.0/os11/xo-1/31011o0.packages.txt http://build.laptop.org/13.1.0/os11/xo-4/31011o4.packages.txt Do they have OpenGL acceleration available? You say that we should consider them in our decision making, but the majority (all?) of us don't have access to them, so we rely on people like you telling us about those things. Looking at the package list, they both have GNOME Panel 3.6.0 and Metacity, and no GNOME Shell, so it is fair to assume that they're running fallback mode without 3D acceleration. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary, Lyon, France Email: dne...@gnome.org Jabber: nea...@gmail.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
If we call it Director of Marketing we will encourage that person, and ourselves, to adopt success as the primary value and communicate that value to others. Thus, I suggest calling it Director of Communication or Director of Public Activism. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Well, have come you forget Radeon free driver, I didn't forget, I remembered -- that ATI's driver requires nonfree firmware blobs. At least that was true about 4 years ago. I tried to recruit someone to reverse-engineer it, but never did. Would you like to help? b) ATI/AMD Radeon - most of them are supported by 'radeon' Xorg driver, newest ones require closed source drivers Please don't use the term closed source -- using that term supports the open source ideas and opposes the basic ethical principles of the free software movement. d) and finally, all of these machines *can* run GNOME desktop trough software rendering using LLVM, altough is not as snappy as it can be, it's really works. I am glad that this does work -- but why must it use LLVM? Is there something in GNOME that is not designed to compile with the GNU compiler collection? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Thu, 2012-11-15 at 22:44 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 11:39 AM, William Jon McCann william.jon.mcc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Karen, I think these are good suggestions. But I think it would be a mistake to leave this critical responsibility to a committee of volunteers. One of the many challenges we face is that our voice and message have been too inconsistent - too infrequently heard. Heard too late. Lacking authority. In want of good taste. And dealing with this is taking a huge toll on our ability to attract and retain contributors. Something needs to be done. I propose that we hire or appoint a full time director of marketing. Let me add one other position. We need to hire another sysadmin person. Along the same community support, we need to also be able to have the infrastructure to support coming out with daily builds for the community to test out and give feedback on the new designs that come out. Bug testing and performance testing as well so that we have a quality product. If we are serious about doing GNOME OS we are going to need to upgrade our infrastructure. We will need to do fund raising to be able get the right hardware and the right person to manage it. I do appreciate that both of these positions could be beneficial to GNOME, but please understand that employees are expensive, and the GNOME Foundation has a relatively small budget. Fundraising campaigns do not bring in the kinds of money you need to hire full-time employees. They're OK for short-term or part-time contract work. -- Shaun ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Hi Richard, On Fri, 2012-11-16 at 10:57 -0500, Richard Stallman wrote: I am glad that this does work -- but why must it use LLVM? Is there something in GNOME that is not designed to compile with the GNU compiler collection? Yes, the Mesa 3D project uses LLVM to dynamically generate machine code. As I understand it, one of the driving factors in the technology choice here was that the compiler is structured as a set of libraries with an API - in contrast to how GCC was historically. So in GNOME, we depend on both compilers now. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 8:16 AM, Shaun McCance sha...@gnome.org wrote: On Thu, 2012-11-15 at 22:44 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: Let me add one other position. We need to hire another sysadmin person. Along the same community support, we need to also be able to have the infrastructure to support coming out with daily builds for the community to test out and give feedback on the new designs that come out. Bug testing and performance testing as well so that we have a quality product. If we are serious about doing GNOME OS we are going to need to upgrade our infrastructure. We will need to do fund raising to be able get the right hardware and the right person to manage it. I do appreciate that both of these positions could be beneficial to GNOME, but please understand that employees are expensive, and the GNOME Foundation has a relatively small budget. Fundraising campaigns do not bring in the kinds of money you need to hire full-time employees. They're OK for short-term or part-time contract work. I was thinking fundraising more for the hardware than the person. Sorry if that wasn't clear. While the hardware is a one time cost, the support contract is not and we will be required to pay for that. sri -- Shaun ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Yes, the Mesa 3D project uses LLVM to dynamically generate machine code. As I understand it, one of the driving factors in the technology choice here was that the compiler is structured as a set of libraries with an API - in contrast to how GCC was historically. So in GNOME, we depend on both compilers now. This design decision suggests that GNOME developers are focusing solely on their specific goals, and not taking account the advance and success of the GNU system as a whole. If that is the case, what can we do to change it? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
I think that overall, what GNU could do to change it is figure out what are the LLVM guys doing to be such an attractive compiler platform compared to GCC. LLVM is a compiler platform, it gives you many APIs and reusable components that you can use at different levels, for example, clang, a C compiler built on top of LLVM, allows you to do static analysis of code, quite handy if you are developing an IDE or if you want continuous integration. In the graphics stack it is used to compile GLSL, OpenCL and other GPU/parallel languages down to the GPU native language. From my point of view, if GCC is not providing what LLVM does, I can't see how using code that has a BSD-like license (and effectively becomes (L)GPL once linked to our stuff) does any harm to the values that we spread as a project. While we are in the topic of keeping GNU relevant, I think a major effort to modernize autotools and other developer tools, document them properly, having a nice UI and make it more developer friendly is long overdue. In general I think that the core of GNU still keeps a 90s mindset. When you compare the developer experience of the GNU toolchain these days to, for example, .NET, iOS/XCode, Java/Eclipse... the dissapointment is huge. If we don't keep GNU attractive to developers people will eventually stop writing free software. (And yes, for the wrong reasons, but sometimes being free as in beer is not enough). I hope you find my input constructive. 2012/11/17 Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org Yes, the Mesa 3D project uses LLVM to dynamically generate machine code. As I understand it, one of the driving factors in the technology choice here was that the compiler is structured as a set of libraries with an API - in contrast to how GCC was historically. So in GNOME, we depend on both compilers now. This design decision suggests that GNOME developers are focusing solely on their specific goals, and not taking account the advance and success of the GNU system as a whole. If that is the case, what can we do to change it? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list -- Cheers, Alberto Ruiz ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Managing the community... or the community manages? On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.mewrote: I'm looking for some charismatic, happy GNOME folks who can help engage with our community. We've had a bad run of late with a lot of folks getting the wrong idea of what we're trying to do. I'm looking for some talented folks who can help us engage with the press, on blogs, on mailing lists and explain our vision. Send me some email, I want to hear from you! sri ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list -- Andy Tai, a...@atai.org, Skype: licheng.tai Year 2012 民國101年 自動的精神力是信仰與覺悟 自動的行為力是勞動與技能 ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On 14 November 2012 10:03, Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org wrote: While I don't quite like the title community managers, I appreciate the role and the sentiment. I agree as well, as a developer I often have desired that someone would coordinate efforts to make our community a better place to contribute to. Would love to see people working inside and outside the GNOME community to do better at communicating our goals, vision, and work. I would hope that this doesn't end up being sit on Google+, Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn, and send happy messages to anyone complaining about GNOME. I think a community manager would have a broader role, as hinted above. Regards, Tomeu Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary, Lyon, France Email: dne...@gnome.org Jabber: nea...@gmail.com __**_ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/**mailman/listinfo/foundation-**listhttps://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Sriram Ramkrishna sri at ramkrishna.me writes: There was nothing more damaging than Company's post which is still quoted even today. Benjamin even today said that nobody refuted his staring at the Abyss post. So his Benjamin's post true? Because people are still talking about it and referencing it. It was gift that continues to keep on giving. What Benjamin posted was totally fine by me, he has a right to air his concerns in public. It is a public project after all. The general response I got to that post was either no response at all, talking behind my back about what what a bad person I am (at least that's what others told me) or - and this was the most concerning response for me - You shouldn't say things like that. And that response came multiple times from very different GNOME contributors. So the lesson I learned back then is that rule number 1 about the GNOME project is that you don't talk about the GNOME project. Fwiw, I still don't think Emily should characterize me as break[ing] API’s at random and purposefully ensuring that [..] themes cease to work, but I think she has all the right in the world to do that as long as I get the right to use my choice words to answer to that. I'd rather have her calling me that than nobody saying anything at all. I can understand that their intentions are noble, but the last time someone took their chances we ended up with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME#cite_note-6 Fun fact: I didn't know I ended up on Wikipedia (Someone should file a bug against Wordpress' pingback feature). Isn't it discouraged to cite blogs on Wikipedia? [1] :) Benjamin 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blogs_as_sources ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
What has changed since the initial GNOME 3 release and now ? The software rendering in Mesa improved dramatically and also has some limited ability to use GEM to optimise data paths on certain cards. Is gnome-shell now optimized and usable on said, older hardware ? Some of the problem hardware is quite current. On netbook type devices with Imagination graphics (and thus unaccelerated) for example it's sort of usable but feels sluggish, while other desktops are quite snappy. On the x86 tablet with Imaginationg graphics I have its horrendous (especially when doing 1080p external video) Even on a decent x86 box the inability to run without a compositor is a killer for doing some kinds of graphics work as the latency it adds is sufficient to be painful. If you've got a fast CPU and reasonable but unusupported graphics hardware then it's usable but not great. No idea what Gnome 3 is like on a Raspberry Pi which would be the most useful other guide as its got fairly snappy graphics but naff CPU and relatively limited memory (512MB now) Perhaps what we need is not a person/group of people working for 'good press' and telling people that we have their best interests at heart, but rather a bit more transparency in how we make our You can do all the telling you like. It's the listening and explaining which matters. Alan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me wrote: ... Community enthusiasts won't go out there using the 'royal we' without some training. This stuff isn't easy, and it is important that our volunteers understand how to engage in both the GNOME community and the community at large. They will need training on GNOME's vision and purpose. That means, release team, designers, and relevant parties will need to help these volunteers in understanding it before going out there and speaking in our name. I'm having Karen be in charge of us. ... One thing that I've wanted to do for a while is hold regular marketing meetings, where marketing contributors can find out what is happening in the project, so that they can follow up with news posts and articles. This could fit in well with what you are proposing here, and would be a good opportunity for people who want to contribute to get a foot in the door. Allan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Hi Tristan, Le jeudi 15 novembre 2012, à 16:56 +0900, Tristan Van Berkom a écrit : On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 4:08 AM, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me wrote: The wrong idea of course is that people think we're just removing features for no apparent reason even though for instance fallback mode was never guarantee. We need to correct those misconceptions. Are you saying that a fallback mode was never guaranteed ? I don't think it was guaranteed for the whole GNOME 3 lifecycle (although, I personally believe it might have been nice to do so, but our resources makes it impossible). Keep in mind that when 3.8 will be out next March, it will be nearly two years since the 3.0 relese -- that's quite some time already. [...] Perhaps what we need is not a person/group of people working for 'good press' and telling people that we have their best interests at heart, but rather a bit more transparency in how we make our decisions... reinstating our module proposals might be a good first step towards including the whole community and getting them more involved in decision making again. Did you miss the discussion on desktop-devel-list about the future of the fallback mode [1]? If no, how could it have been made more transparent? To me, the discussion clearly highlighted that there was a problem of manpower to keep maintaining the fallback mode an official part of GNOME, with the quality standards we expect from such an official component. Cheers, Vincent [1] https://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2012-October/msg00107.html -- Les gens heureux ne sont pas pressés. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
2012/11/15 Benjamin Otte o...@gnome.org The general response I got to that post was either no response at all, talking behind my back about what what a bad person I am (at least that's what others told me) or - and this was the most concerning response for me - You shouldn't say things like that. And that response came multiple times from very different GNOME contributors. So the lesson I learned back then is that rule number 1 about the GNOME project is that you don't talk about the GNOME project. If you ask me, I think you should have thought twice on whether what you were writing was accurate, whether those opinions came out of actual facts, or whether you were just somewhat disappointed and decided to rant as an emotional outlet. You have to admit that when someone is a somewhat relevant member of the community, saying such things implies certain responsibility and sends certain message to the outer public. I joined GNOME in 2003, and it is very easy to see how thriving this community is right now, we have more contributors than ever, we have more focus than ever. The one thing that was somewhat true is that we have less corporate support, back then IBM, Sun, Novell, Nokia and many other people were looking at GNOME as a platform to build products from. These days that's not the case. Market has changed, and sure, getting a job where you can do GNOMEy stuff is hard. But let's be honest, this is, by no means, any worse than the state of affairs in 2001, we've been in a way worse situation before, with way less contributors and way less accumulated knowledge and experience. And we moved forward. I think that some of the old farts like us are somewhat discouraged that we are not in the place where we thought GNOME would be by now (10x10 or GNOME based phones, or something like that), and it is easy to lose enthusiasm over time. The reason why a lot of people were upset about that blog post is that it could take enthusiasm away from newcomers or people considering joining to help us. Now let's check the facts, look at what we've accomplished in the latest couple of years. 3.0 was a major effort, GSettings, Gtk+, GNOME Shell, PyGObject... I am humbled by the ammount of cordination and shared vision that it takes to come up with all of what we've done. Sure, it's not perfect, sure we have many challenges, but it's hard to look at the hard facts and not be amazed. Yup, some of the old farts might be tired, people evolve, change, and want to do new things, but it is our responsibility to encourage the newer generations. If the message we send to the new contributors is Don't bother, this is a dead end, who is going to want to join? Would you imagine Linus Torlvads saying how awful the Linux kernel project is just because he is tired of it or somewhat discouraged? TL,DR; There's nothing wrong with expressing your opinion, none is asking you to stop doing that, but what we say have consequences, and being a relevant member of the community as yourself, poses some responsibility in what you say. Plus, we have many reasons to celebrate and enjoy GNOME as a project and a community these days. Fwiw, I still don't think Emily should characterize me as break[ing] API’s at random and purposefully ensuring that [..] themes cease to work, but I think she has all the right in the world to do that as long as I get the right to use my choice words to answer to that. I'd rather have her calling me that than nobody saying anything at all. I can understand that their intentions are noble, but the last time someone took their chances we ended up with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME#cite_note-6 Fun fact: I didn't know I ended up on Wikipedia (Someone should file a bug against Wordpress' pingback feature). Isn't it discouraged to cite blogs on Wikipedia? [1] :) Benjamin 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Blogs_as_sources ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list -- Cheers, Alberto Ruiz ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 5:39 AM, Alan Cox a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote: If you've got a fast CPU and reasonable but unusupported graphics hardware then it's usable but not great. No idea what Gnome 3 is like on a Raspberry Pi which would be the most useful other guide as its got fairly snappy graphics but naff CPU and relatively limited memory (512MB now) I suggest keeping an eye on the OLPC hardware as a low-end hardware benchmark for the GNOME desktop. As for market share there are over 2 million XO-1 and XO-1.5 out there and AFAICT the ARM based XO-1.75 is shipping and the touchscreen enabled XO-4 (in may ways similar to the XO-1.75) is on the way soon (FWIW ,I like the prototype I test on). OLPC builds are dual boot in Sugar and GNOME and I would love for GNOME to consider these users in their decision making. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XO-1 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XO-1.5 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XO-1.75 http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XO-4 Just a thought about a large definable community segment where hardware is tightly defined. cjl ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Actually a non-negligible number of desktops as I understand running gnome based desktops just don't have the graphics hardware needed to run the shell Even worse, most of the machines that CAN run it need nonfree software to run it -- which means that we should urge people not to buy them. The only graphics accelerators I know of that don't require nonfree software are some Intel ones, and the nVidia devices which Nouveau supports. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Em Wed, 2012-11-14 às 11:08 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna escreveu: The wrong idea of course is that people think we're just removing features for no apparent reason even though for instance fallback mode was never guarantee. We need to correct those misconceptions. Having a good relationship with the general public is more important now than it was in the past thanks to social media. For example, with Ubuntu (who holds the largest share of users right now), GNOME is no longer the default and so it takes a conscious effort to change to GNOME. If they do the research, I don't want them to see a pile of ridiculous blog postings that aren't challenged by calm and simple rhetoric. A lot of work. I simply hope that communication is inwards as well as outwards. Regarding, Emily's post. You need to look at the overall message there. Not everyone is on the same page, and the fact that we are having this discussion with other people who clearly have the same concerns is indicative that we do have a problem. If you think there is no problem, we an drop this whole thing. Community enthusiasts won't go out there using the 'royal we' without some training. This stuff isn't easy, and it is important that our volunteers understand how to engage in both the GNOME community and the community at large. They will need training on GNOME's vision and purpose. That means, release team, designers, and relevant parties will need to help these volunteers in understanding it before going out there and speaking in our name. I'm having Karen be in charge of us. The end goal is to reduce the signal to noise ratio and get real feedback without hyperbole and let developers and designers be able to produce awesome stuff without feeling buried in undue negativity. The only thing I ask in return is that you consider the feedback that is being provided to you. If the feedback is negative, help us engage with the community with the right approach. If the feedback is positive, then I hope you will take that as encourage and motivation to keep doing it. Do you want that job? :) ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Hi Karen, I think these are good suggestions. But I think it would be a mistake to leave this critical responsibility to a committee of volunteers. One of the many challenges we face is that our voice and message have been too inconsistent - too infrequently heard. Heard too late. Lacking authority. In want of good taste. And dealing with this is taking a huge toll on our ability to attract and retain contributors. Something needs to be done. I propose that we hire or appoint a full time director of marketing. With the following responsibilities: * Organize and work with a team of advocates * Grok and channel the voice of the project rather than impose a separate agenda * Consult with the design, development, testing, and documentation teams * Help us clearly and effectively communicate our goals and objectives * Organize the creation of press releases / release notes * Blog regularly about ongoing initiatives and progress * Be a beacon of light to counter the darkness * Help us communicate proactively instead of reactively * Educate misinformed journalists * Be a point of contact for external parties that want information * Reduce the burden on volunteers * Delegate the above responsibilities If nothing else, it is clear that we are failing to perform these critical duties. We are paying a dear price for it. I think we need to admit we need professional help - a point I'm sure even our harshest critics will agree with. Jon On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Karen Sandler ka...@gnome.org wrote: On Wed, November 14, 2012 8:40 am, Bastien Nocera wrote: - And discontent. Well, I think that I have reasonable doubts to think that those community managers wouldn't be able to carry the message of developers truthfully if said developers aren't being talked to. I think it's a fair point to raise issues of quality control for this committee. One of the things I think we should start with for this initiative is the creation of GNOME talking points/FAQ type of document. The new team could do this by working with the release team, the board and others in the community who would like to contribute. I think some of the conversation we're having in other threads on this list are a good start for that too. By going through that process, we'd be able to train the volunteers and provide material to work from for the individuals to use in formulating their own responses (so not a cut and paste document, but a formulation of key goals, ideas and decisions). We could also create infrastructure to help them out, like an IRC channel and private mailing list where posts can be vetted. We'd also need to set up mechanisms for communication so that developers can be consulted. In the end, I think this could wind up being a lot easier for our core developers, who seem to be often put on the spot to defend their work. Having a team that these developers can talk to and count on to repeatedly respond on behalf of the project seems to me like a great way to preserve those people's time. Are there other ways we could improve this side of the conversation? karen ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Well, have come you forget Radeon free driver, who supports impressive number of cards which work without a glitch with GNOME Shell, Unity and similar software :) In fact, most of the machines than can run has a) Either Intel graphics - works perfectly b) ATI/AMD Radeon - most of them are supported by 'radeon' Xorg driver, newest ones require closed source drivers c) Nvidia cards d) and finally, all of these machines *can* run GNOME desktop trough software rendering using LLVM, altough is not as snappy as it can be, it's really works. So Richard, things *are* improving :) We are at much less mercy of closed drivers than before. Respectfully, Peter. 2012/11/15 Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org Actually a non-negligible number of desktops as I understand running gnome based desktops just don't have the graphics hardware needed to run the shell Even worse, most of the machines that CAN run it need nonfree software to run it -- which means that we should urge people not to buy them. The only graphics accelerators I know of that don't require nonfree software are some Intel ones, and the nVidia devices which Nouveau supports. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list -- mortigi tempo Pēteris Krišjānis ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On 15 nov. 2012, at 22:19, pec...@gmail.com pec...@gmail.com wrote: d) and finally, all of these machines *can* run GNOME desktop trough software rendering using LLVM, altough is not as snappy as it can be, it's really works. which prevents from running gnome on things like raspberry pi and the like... ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Thu, November 15, 2012 2:39 pm, William Jon McCann wrote: Hi Karen, I think these are good suggestions. But I think it would be a mistake to leave this critical responsibility to a committee of volunteers. One of the many challenges we face is that our voice and message have been too inconsistent - too infrequently heard. Heard too late. Lacking authority. In want of good taste. And dealing with this is taking a huge toll on our ability to attract and retain contributors. Something needs to be done. I propose that we hire or appoint a full time director of marketing. This is a great idea! And I agree that this is a major area of need for us. Given the GNOME Foundation finances, it probably is also worth considering someone part-time (especially if there is a team of volunteers that can be trained and directed by such a person) or thinking creatively about fundraising for the position. The other challenge will be to find the right person for the position. In the past, organizations I worked with who hired for these kinds of positions had a really tough time finding someone with the right skillset already and who also understood free software and was affordable. But we can tackle that and set up a hiring process if we decide this is what we want to do and can raise the funds. We'll take it to the board! In the meantime, as I return from maternity leave (I'm not fully back for a few weeks), I can help push forward some of these tasks - some of them have gone in and out of my queue over the last year depending on my other commitments - though many of them require someone more trained than me to do well. We've been talking about various ideas on the marketing list, including a weekly podcast/oggcast about GNOME. If we can get that together, mind being on the first one, Jon? :D karen With the following responsibilities: * Organize and work with a team of advocates * Grok and channel the voice of the project rather than impose a separate agenda * Consult with the design, development, testing, and documentation teams * Help us clearly and effectively communicate our goals and objectives * Organize the creation of press releases / release notes * Blog regularly about ongoing initiatives and progress * Be a beacon of light to counter the darkness * Help us communicate proactively instead of reactively * Educate misinformed journalists * Be a point of contact for external parties that want information * Reduce the burden on volunteers * Delegate the above responsibilities If nothing else, it is clear that we are failing to perform these critical duties. We are paying a dear price for it. I think we need to admit we need professional help - a point I'm sure even our harshest critics will agree with. Jon On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Karen Sandler ka...@gnome.org wrote: On Wed, November 14, 2012 8:40 am, Bastien Nocera wrote: - And discontent. Well, I think that I have reasonable doubts to think that those community managers wouldn't be able to carry the message of developers truthfully if said developers aren't being talked to. I think it's a fair point to raise issues of quality control for this committee. One of the things I think we should start with for this initiative is the creation of GNOME talking points/FAQ type of document. The new team could do this by working with the release team, the board and others in the community who would like to contribute. I think some of the conversation we're having in other threads on this list are a good start for that too. By going through that process, we'd be able to train the volunteers and provide material to work from for the individuals to use in formulating their own responses (so not a cut and paste document, but a formulation of key goals, ideas and decisions). We could also create infrastructure to help them out, like an IRC channel and private mailing list where posts can be vetted. We'd also need to set up mechanisms for communication so that developers can be consulted. In the end, I think this could wind up being a lot easier for our core developers, who seem to be often put on the spot to defend their work. Having a team that these developers can talk to and count on to repeatedly respond on behalf of the project seems to me like a great way to preserve those people's time. Are there other ways we could improve this side of the conversation? karen ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Thu, 2012-11-15 at 16:56 +0900, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 4:08 AM, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me wrote: The wrong idea of course is that people think we're just removing features for no apparent reason even though for instance fallback mode was never guarantee. We need to correct those misconceptions. Are you saying that a fallback mode was never guaranteed ? As I recall, providing a fallback was indeed a blocker for GNOME 3 initial release... it was also around then that somehow gnome-shell was included in gnome releases without the regular module proposal period. Actually a non-negligible number of desktops as I understand running gnome based desktops just don't have the graphics hardware needed to run the shell (from my personal experience, in south america many, if not even most of the public desktops found in hostels etc, used by travelers... were actually running gnome). What has changed since the initial GNOME 3 release and now ? A number of things already mentioned in the d-d-l thread and on the wiki page, but mainly loads of bug fixes to the LLVMpipe renderer, and a better idea which use cases we want to support. Is gnome-shell now optimized and usable on said, older hardware ? There's a number of bugs blocking the 3.8 release about disabling animations in a number of cases (exported displays through VNC or SPICE, low-end machines). They're all linked from the wiki page and the bugzilla. Perhaps what we need is not a person/group of people working for 'good press' and telling people that we have their best interests at heart, but rather a bit more transparency in how we make our decisions... reinstating our module proposals might be a good first step towards including the whole community and getting them more involved in decision making again. There was a discussion 6 months ago where we decided to keep fallback mode, and another one happened about a month ago where we ended up deciding not to. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Thu, 2012-11-15 at 08:40 -0500, Chris Leonard wrote: On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 5:39 AM, Alan Cox a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk wrote: If you've got a fast CPU and reasonable but unusupported graphics hardware then it's usable but not great. No idea what Gnome 3 is like on a Raspberry Pi which would be the most useful other guide as its got fairly snappy graphics but naff CPU and relatively limited memory (512MB now) I suggest keeping an eye on the OLPC hardware as a low-end hardware benchmark for the GNOME desktop. As for market share there are over 2 million XO-1 and XO-1.5 out there and AFAICT the ARM based XO-1.75 is shipping and the touchscreen enabled XO-4 (in may ways similar to the XO-1.75) is on the way soon (FWIW ,I like the prototype I test on). OLPC builds are dual boot in Sugar and GNOME and I would love for GNOME to consider these users in their decision making. Have you shipped GNOME 3 on any of those, and, if so, were you using GNOME fallback or GNOME shell? ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 11:39 AM, William Jon McCann william.jon.mcc...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Karen, I think these are good suggestions. But I think it would be a mistake to leave this critical responsibility to a committee of volunteers. One of the many challenges we face is that our voice and message have been too inconsistent - too infrequently heard. Heard too late. Lacking authority. In want of good taste. And dealing with this is taking a huge toll on our ability to attract and retain contributors. Something needs to be done. I propose that we hire or appoint a full time director of marketing. Let me add one other position. We need to hire another sysadmin person. Along the same community support, we need to also be able to have the infrastructure to support coming out with daily builds for the community to test out and give feedback on the new designs that come out. Bug testing and performance testing as well so that we have a quality product. If we are serious about doing GNOME OS we are going to need to upgrade our infrastructure. We will need to do fund raising to be able get the right hardware and the right person to manage it. Regarding the community management, I think it will be challenging to find such a person in the near term. Going with the a team of volunteers who are trained to do this will at least let us work out what changes we need to make internally and externally. Certain changes will need to be talked over with both the release team and the marketing or community management team. Currently, marketing team is just a bolted on team in GNOME. So, I think to realize your goals below we need to change how we do things internally. It'll be a tough slog, people don't think about community outreach. We're primarily a technical project and still have a lot of the hacker culture and doing this kind of stuff is against it. Then again, nobody ever done a designed focused open source project either, have we? :-) With the following responsibilities: * Organize and work with a team of advocates * Grok and channel the voice of the project rather than impose a separate agenda * Consult with the design, development, testing, and documentation teams * Help us clearly and effectively communicate our goals and objectives * Organize the creation of press releases / release notes * Blog regularly about ongoing initiatives and progress * Be a beacon of light to counter the darkness * Help us communicate proactively instead of reactively * Educate misinformed journalists * Be a point of contact for external parties that want information * Reduce the burden on volunteers * Delegate the above responsibilities The one thing I wanted to do with the advocates as you call them is to really go onto blogs and popular social media places and actually address people who complain. I think this works and I know I have made some in-roads using this approach. It's amazing how a simply listening changes a person's perspective on GNOME. There are of course some people who are completely deranged but in general, I believe people turned positive. At the very least their last interaction with us was pleasant and might be willing to look at GNOME again later. If nothing else, it is clear that we are failing to perform these critical duties. We are paying a dear price for it. I think we need to admit we need professional help - a point I'm sure even our harshest critics will agree with. This is good to hear. I hope others also are in agreement. Acknowledging we have an issue is a good first step to solving it. sri Jon On Thu, Nov 15, 2012 at 12:47 AM, Karen Sandler ka...@gnome.org wrote: On Wed, November 14, 2012 8:40 am, Bastien Nocera wrote: - And discontent. Well, I think that I have reasonable doubts to think that those community managers wouldn't be able to carry the message of developers truthfully if said developers aren't being talked to. I think it's a fair point to raise issues of quality control for this committee. One of the things I think we should start with for this initiative is the creation of GNOME talking points/FAQ type of document. The new team could do this by working with the release team, the board and others in the community who would like to contribute. I think some of the conversation we're having in other threads on this list are a good start for that too. By going through that process, we'd be able to train the volunteers and provide material to work from for the individuals to use in formulating their own responses (so not a cut and paste document, but a formulation of key goals, ideas and decisions). We could also create infrastructure to help them out, like an IRC channel and private mailing list where posts can be vetted. We'd also need to set up mechanisms for communication so that developers can be consulted. In the end, I think this could wind up being a lot easier for our core developers,
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Hi, On 11/14/2012 01:07 AM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: I'm looking for some charismatic, happy GNOME folks who can help engage with our community. We've had a bad run of late with a lot of folks getting the wrong idea of what we're trying to do. I'm looking for some talented folks who can help us engage with the press, on blogs, on mailing lists and explain our vision. Send me some email, I want to hear from you! While I don't quite like the title community managers, I appreciate the role and the sentiment. Would love to see people working inside and outside the GNOME community to do better at communicating our goals, vision, and work. I would hope that this doesn't end up being sit on Google+, Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn, and send happy messages to anyone complaining about GNOME. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary, Lyon, France Email: dne...@gnome.org Jabber: nea...@gmail.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Hey Sri, On Tue, 2012-11-13 at 16:07 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: I'm looking for some charismatic, happy GNOME folks who can help engage with our community. We've had a bad run of late with a lot of folks getting the wrong idea of what we're trying to do. Which is? I'm looking for some talented folks who can help us engage with the press, on blogs, on mailing lists and explain our vision. I hope it's slightly better handled than Emily last 2 posts, which managed to say that the removal of fallback was badly communicated (!) without details of what was done wrong, and used a blog post by a troll to make false assertions about GTK+ 3.x's API stability. You might want to vouch for your community managers before you let them loose... ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On 11/14/2012 11:38 AM, Bastien Nocera wrote: On Tue, 2012-11-13 at 16:07 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: I'm looking for some talented folks who can help us engage with the press, on blogs, on mailing lists and explain our vision. I hope it's slightly better handled than Emily last 2 posts, which managed to say that the removal of fallback was badly communicated (!) without details of what was done wrong, and used a blog post by a troll to make false assertions about GTK+ 3.x's API stability. You might want to vouch for your community managers before you let them loose... Really? Your solution to we have a PR problem is criticise the only people trying to address that problem by publicly saying they suck at it? Sheesh. Dave. -- Dave Neary, Lyon, France Email: dne...@gnome.org Jabber: nea...@gmail.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 11:50 +0100, Dave Neary wrote: On 11/14/2012 11:38 AM, Bastien Nocera wrote: On Tue, 2012-11-13 at 16:07 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: I'm looking for some talented folks who can help us engage with the press, on blogs, on mailing lists and explain our vision. I hope it's slightly better handled than Emily last 2 posts, which managed to say that the removal of fallback was badly communicated (!) without details of what was done wrong, and used a blog post by a troll to make false assertions about GTK+ 3.x's API stability. You might want to vouch for your community managers before you let them loose... Really? Your solution to we have a PR problem is criticise the only people trying to address that problem by publicly saying they suck at it? Telling X you'll teach them how to communicate with Y and then creating a problem with X because of the way you communicated with Y. Tell me how exactly I should have brought this up privately. We have very few private mailing-lists in GNOME, and it wasn't discussed on any of those I would be on [1]. Sheesh. Yeah, me too. [1]: Not a cabal, it's Board-related lists. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Hi, On 11/14/2012 01:52 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote: Telling X you'll teach them how to communicate with Y and then creating a problem with X because of the way you communicated with Y. I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. What are X and Y? Tell me how exactly I should have brought this up privately. We have very few private mailing-lists in GNOME, and it wasn't discussed on any of those I would be on [1]. Maybe private email? Maybe bringing it up in a different way? Sri's initial email didn't mention Emily at all - were you just waiting for an opportunity to bring up your discontent? Dave. -- Dave Neary, Lyon, France Email: dne...@gnome.org Jabber: nea...@gmail.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 13:59 +0100, Dave Neary wrote: Hi, On 11/14/2012 01:52 PM, Bastien Nocera wrote: Telling X you'll teach them how to communicate with Y and then creating a problem with X because of the way you communicated with Y. I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. What are X and Y? Developers and the community respectively. Tell me how exactly I should have brought this up privately. We have very few private mailing-lists in GNOME, and it wasn't discussed on any of those I would be on [1]. Maybe private email? Maybe bringing it up in a different way? Sri's initial email didn't mention Emily at all - were you just waiting for an opportunity to bring up your discontent? There's so many things wrong with the above paragraph. - Assume people mean well. Well, seems that I'm not granted the benefit of the doubt. - Sri's initial email made me think that it was an initiative by the marketing team, which Emily is a part of. It seems reasonable to think that she would be involved in this at one point or another. - And discontent. Well, I think that I have reasonable doubts to think that those community managers wouldn't be able to carry the message of developers truthfully if said developers aren't being talked to. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 11:38 +0100, Bastien Nocera wrote: On Tue, 2012-11-13 at 16:07 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: I'm looking for some charismatic, happy GNOME folks who can help engage with our community. This is a good idea, along with building up resources describing goals. I hope it's slightly better handled than Emily last 2 posts, Communication will need to be both ways - outward from developers and people heavily involved in gnome, and back inwards from the outside. It's usually more important to give a clear and correct message (and to be seen to do so) than to quick to respond. If speed is important, a response on a blog (say) saying, we are aware of these comments and will respond in more detail later can be enough at times. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
I could go with community enthusiasts if that makes it better. But their stated role is to help communicate to the general public what are goals and visions are, but also take relevant feedback to the community. To some extent, yes it does involve sitting on social networks, or popular blogs and magazines. But more importantly, the idea is to be visible. It doesn't necessarily mean happy messages. We aren't going to apologize for where we are headed. Not everyone can adapt or change to what we want. But we do want to address issues or gaps that maybe we have not taken into account. sri On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 1:03 AM, Dave Neary dne...@gnome.org wrote: Hi, On 11/14/2012 01:07 AM, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: I'm looking for some charismatic, happy GNOME folks who can help engage with our community. We've had a bad run of late with a lot of folks getting the wrong idea of what we're trying to do. I'm looking for some talented folks who can help us engage with the press, on blogs, on mailing lists and explain our vision. Send me some email, I want to hear from you! While I don't quite like the title community managers, I appreciate the role and the sentiment. Would love to see people working inside and outside the GNOME community to do better at communicating our goals, vision, and work. I would hope that this doesn't end up being sit on Google+, Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn, and send happy messages to anyone complaining about GNOME. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary, Lyon, France Email: dne...@gnome.org Jabber: nea...@gmail.com ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
The wrong idea of course is that people think we're just removing features for no apparent reason even though for instance fallback mode was never guarantee. We need to correct those misconceptions. Having a good relationship with the general public is more important now than it was in the past thanks to social media. For example, with Ubuntu (who holds the largest share of users right now), GNOME is no longer the default and so it takes a conscious effort to change to GNOME. If they do the research, I don't want them to see a pile of ridiculous blog postings that aren't challenged by calm and simple rhetoric. Regarding, Emily's post. You need to look at the overall message there. Not everyone is on the same page, and the fact that we are having this discussion with other people who clearly have the same concerns is indicative that we do have a problem. If you think there is no problem, we an drop this whole thing. Community enthusiasts won't go out there using the 'royal we' without some training. This stuff isn't easy, and it is important that our volunteers understand how to engage in both the GNOME community and the community at large. They will need training on GNOME's vision and purpose. That means, release team, designers, and relevant parties will need to help these volunteers in understanding it before going out there and speaking in our name. I'm having Karen be in charge of us. The end goal is to reduce the signal to noise ratio and get real feedback without hyperbole and let developers and designers be able to produce awesome stuff without feeling buried in undue negativity. The only thing I ask in return is that you consider the feedback that is being provided to you. If the feedback is negative, help us engage with the community with the right approach. If the feedback is positive, then I hope you will take that as encourage and motivation to keep doing it. sri On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 2:38 AM, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: Hey Sri, On Tue, 2012-11-13 at 16:07 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: I'm looking for some charismatic, happy GNOME folks who can help engage with our community. We've had a bad run of late with a lot of folks getting the wrong idea of what we're trying to do. Which is? I'm looking for some talented folks who can help us engage with the press, on blogs, on mailing lists and explain our vision. I hope it's slightly better handled than Emily last 2 posts, which managed to say that the removal of fallback was badly communicated (!) without details of what was done wrong, and used a blog post by a troll to make false assertions about GTK+ 3.x's API stability. You might want to vouch for your community managers before you let them loose... ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
Hi, On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.mewrote: The wrong idea of course is that people think we're just removing features for no apparent reason even though for instance fallback mode was never guarantee. We need to correct those misconceptions. Having a good relationship with the general public is more important now than it was in the past thanks to social media. For example, with Ubuntu (who holds the largest share of users right now), GNOME is no longer the default and so it takes a conscious effort to change to GNOME. If they do the research, I don't want them to see a pile of ridiculous blog postings that aren't challenged by calm and simple rhetoric. Regarding, Emily's post. You need to look at the overall message there. Not everyone is on the same page, and the fact that we are having this discussion with other people who clearly have the same concerns is indicative that we do have a problem. If you think there is no problem, we an drop this whole thing. Community enthusiasts won't go out there using the 'royal we' without some training. This stuff isn't easy, and it is important that our volunteers understand how to engage in both the GNOME community and the community at large. They will need training on GNOME's vision and purpose. That means, release team, designers, and relevant parties will need to help these volunteers in understanding it before going out there and speaking in our name. I'm having Karen be in charge of us. I'd like to request that Karen also provide the members of the board with the information she shares with the volunteers. It's demoralizing to see members of the board arguing about GNOME's vision and purpose. If we are going to present a positive image of ourselves to the public, I think we need to at least have the board members agreeing on the basic message. I hope this doesn't offend anyone; I'm just saying this because, as a member of the foundation, I would really appreciate it if the board members could present a united front. Meg Ford The end goal is to reduce the signal to noise ratio and get real feedback without hyperbole and let developers and designers be able to produce awesome stuff without feeling buried in undue negativity. The only thing I ask in return is that you consider the feedback that is being provided to you. If the feedback is negative, help us engage with the community with the right approach. If the feedback is positive, then I hope you will take that as encourage and motivation to keep doing it. sri On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 2:38 AM, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: Hey Sri, On Tue, 2012-11-13 at 16:07 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: I'm looking for some charismatic, happy GNOME folks who can help engage with our community. We've had a bad run of late with a lot of folks getting the wrong idea of what we're trying to do. Which is? I'm looking for some talented folks who can help us engage with the press, on blogs, on mailing lists and explain our vision. I hope it's slightly better handled than Emily last 2 posts, which managed to say that the removal of fallback was badly communicated (!) without details of what was done wrong, and used a blog post by a troll to make false assertions about GTK+ 3.x's API stability. You might want to vouch for your community managers before you let them loose... ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Wed, November 14, 2012 2:28 pm, meg ford wrote: Hi, On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 1:08 PM, Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.mewrote: The wrong idea of course is that people think we're just removing features for no apparent reason even though for instance fallback mode was never guarantee. We need to correct those misconceptions. Having a good relationship with the general public is more important now than it was in the past thanks to social media. For example, with Ubuntu (who holds the largest share of users right now), GNOME is no longer the default and so it takes a conscious effort to change to GNOME. If they do the research, I don't want them to see a pile of ridiculous blog postings that aren't challenged by calm and simple rhetoric. Regarding, Emily's post. You need to look at the overall message there. Not everyone is on the same page, and the fact that we are having this discussion with other people who clearly have the same concerns is indicative that we do have a problem. If you think there is no problem, we an drop this whole thing. Community enthusiasts won't go out there using the 'royal we' without some training. This stuff isn't easy, and it is important that our volunteers understand how to engage in both the GNOME community and the community at large. They will need training on GNOME's vision and purpose. That means, release team, designers, and relevant parties will need to help these volunteers in understanding it before going out there and speaking in our name. I'm having Karen be in charge of us. I'd like to request that Karen also provide the members of the board with the information she shares with the volunteers. It's demoralizing to see members of the board arguing about GNOME's vision and purpose. If we are going to present a positive image of ourselves to the public, I think we need to at least have the board members agreeing on the basic message. I hope this doesn't offend anyone; I'm just saying this because, as a member of the foundation, I would really appreciate it if the board members could present a united front. Great point, Meg. I think the board should definitely be involved in this process, as they are our elected representatives. I of course commit to doing everything I can to help make that happen. In any event, I agree with you that a coordinated basic message (with flexibility for individual perspectives) should be of the utmost importance. I'm glad we're undertaking this effort - I hope it will help drive us to be more coordinated all around. karen Meg Ford The end goal is to reduce the signal to noise ratio and get real feedback without hyperbole and let developers and designers be able to produce awesome stuff without feeling buried in undue negativity. The only thing I ask in return is that you consider the feedback that is being provided to you. If the feedback is negative, help us engage with the community with the right approach. If the feedback is positive, then I hope you will take that as encourage and motivation to keep doing it. sri On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 2:38 AM, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: Hey Sri, On Tue, 2012-11-13 at 16:07 -0800, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: I'm looking for some charismatic, happy GNOME folks who can help engage with our community. We've had a bad run of late with a lot of folks getting the wrong idea of what we're trying to do. Which is? I'm looking for some talented folks who can help us engage with the press, on blogs, on mailing lists and explain our vision. I hope it's slightly better handled than Emily last 2 posts, which managed to say that the removal of fallback was badly communicated (!) without details of what was done wrong, and used a blog post by a troll to make false assertions about GTK+ 3.x's API stability. You might want to vouch for your community managers before you let them loose... ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 11:50 +0100, Dave Neary wrote: Sheesh. Seems an over-reaction, Dave. We've had some abysmal press lately, and I agree with Bastien; a number of the things generating headlines have little to do with facts or with what people who are in GNOME are actually doing. But we still look bad all the same. I'm not sure how creating a community manager position is going to change that. Ubuntu has a community manager. The job description seems to be slavishly saying how great everything is. Admittedly, that *is* PR, but I ended up unsubscribing/unfollowing/uncircling him from all my networks because the banging-the-drum was incessant. So how can we communicate effectively without making it seem we're being slavish? AfC Sydney ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Andrew Cowie and...@operationaldynamics.com wrote: On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 11:50 +0100, Dave Neary wrote: Sheesh. Seems an over-reaction, Dave. We've had some abysmal press lately, and I agree with Bastien; a number of the things generating headlines have little to do with facts or with what people who are in GNOME are actually doing. But we still look bad all the same. This is precisely why you want someone to just engage and state the facts. I'm not sure how creating a community manager position is going to change that. Ubuntu has a community manager. The job description seems to be slavishly saying how great everything is. Admittedly, that *is* PR, but I ended up unsubscribing/unfollowing/uncircling him from all my networks because the banging-the-drum was incessant. I'm not really trying to do PR here. I'm trying to address certain misconceptions that come about constantly every time a GNOME is brought up in a post. There aren't enough positive reactions from users to counterbalance. As I said, I've been doing this since 3.0, engaging members of our community from Linus on down to some random poster on G+. When you do engage you do create a positive outcome. Even if they don't agree with you in the end and you part ways they will leave at least respectful. Tha'ts good enough for me. The idea here is not to be GNOME rah rah rah. If you don't agree with where it is going, then that's fine. But I won't stand to hear the standard FUD about removing features or that GNOME developers are taking over and doing things over the community. It's all a bunch of crap. You have to address it before it becomes common wisdom. So how can we communicate effectively without making it seem we're being slavish? It's simple, you trust that the path you're going on is the right one and then explain, sometime ad nauseum what we're trying to do. Ask them to give it a chance. If you still don't like it then ask them what they didn't like about it. If you have a large number of people saying the same thing then maybe there is something we need to look at. If it is because it is some kind of ego trip or whatever then I'll ignore it. I've done this enough times to figure out what is what. sri AfC Sydney ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Debarshi Ray rishi...@lostca.se wrote: Maybe private email? Maybe bringing it up in a different way? Sri's initial email didn't mention Emily at all - were you just waiting for an opportunity to bring up your discontent? The point still remains that people posting on Planet GNOME should be more informed about what they write. Especially when they are writing about a sensitive topic and their words can be interpreted by outsiders as coming from a position of authority. I take some responsibility for the post. Emily ran it by me before posting it and I thought it was fine. She did attempt to get feedback before posting. Maybe I failed her there. There was nothing more damaging than Company's post which is still quoted even today. Benjamin even today said that nobody refuted his staring at the Abyss post. So his Benjamin's post true? Because people are still talking about it and referencing it. It was gift that continues to keep on giving. What Benjamin posted was totally fine by me, he has a right to air his concerns in public. It is a public project after all. I will argue the same for Emily. All most people will get out of Emily's post is that communication is important. Maybe it was a bit inartful, but I think we should forgive that. I can understand that their intentions are noble, but the last time someone took their chances we ended up with: http://en.wikipedia.orgkeeps/wiki/GNOME#cite_note-6http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOME#cite_note-6 Again, nobody refuted it. So is it true? Did we have a legion of developers saying otherwise? How many posts did we have refuting that? Two or three? Biting the hand that feeds you [1] is not the answer to effective communication. Is communications both internally and externally not important? sri Happy hacking, Debarshi [1] http://todoentiempo.wordpress.com/2012/11/13/open-communication/#comment-574 -- There are two hard problems in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Looking for community managers or enthusiasts!
I'm looking for some charismatic, happy GNOME folks who can help engage with our community. We've had a bad run of late with a lot of folks getting the wrong idea of what we're trying to do. I'm looking for some talented folks who can help us engage with the press, on blogs, on mailing lists and explain our vision. Send me some email, I want to hear from you! sri ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
