Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 18:08 +0200, Bastien Nocera wrote: On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 10:57 -0500, meg ford wrote: Hi Bastien, On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 16:47 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: On 10 May 2013 15:55, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people If it helps, I've never heard the word used this way either. However, my understanding of the common use of the word isn't any better (warning; possibly NSFW): https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gimp+masktbm=isch I think a majority of people on this list will be familiar with Pulp Fiction ;) And I wasn't arguing that GIMP is a nice name, it's just that I don't understand the reasoning enunciated in the original e-mail. Saying I don't want GNOME to be associated with SM leather bound dudes is better than (possibly) creating connections that don't exist between 2 words. That isn't the common meaning of the word, though. SM players use it specifically because it's offensive. Which is fine in their context (let's not debate it, at least, TMI), where it is understood that it is not real life and is never directed at someone who is not consenting. The general meaning of the term irl is a slur. I'll note that this still doesn't answer my question. If somebody has access to a dictionary with good etymology, I'd like them to clue me in... Thanks to Karen and Meg who pointed me (off-list) to: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gimp That answers my question. My searches on Merriam-Webster, the Wiktionary and the Cambridge dictionary didn't bring up this definition. Cheers ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
Richard, sorry for the misdirection. I commented on your first message while replying to your second. No problem, and thanks for clearing up what happened. I am not arguing for or against the proposed change in host names. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 07:48:21PM +0200, Sebastian Keller wrote: One time on #gnome on freenode somebody was asking a11y specific questions for his quadriplegic friend and I redirected him to #a11y on irc.gnome.org. When he saw that the networks name was GIMPNet he got really furious and accused me of tricking him to connect to something called GIMPNet just to make fun of him and his friend. So in the case of a11y the network name is really really unfortunate and given GNOME's a11y efforts it should be reason enough to change the network name. This is a perfect example of the very point I have been trying to make since the beginning of this discussion, so I am pointing this out one last time, just to make sure the message comes across clearly enough. Changing irc.gnome.org into an A record poses little additional burden (as explained, of keeping up with the IRC network structure), so I really don't mind that someone will waste a couple of minutes to get it done. My only concern is that it is not going to solve the problem at hand. People will be pointed to irc.gnome.org, as they already are, and they will keep seeing themselves connected to GIMPNet, because that's the network's name, as advertised by the IRC server. People who are likely to be offended by the name will still be offended. A slight modification in the mostly invisible path of domain name resolution will not change anything in user experience. That's all. Kind regards to all, Guilherme ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:47 AM, Michael Hill mdhil...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Tristan Van Berkom t...@gnome.org wrote: People have common sense, they know that since we are at the zoo, there actually are monkeys to go see. Tristan, your analogy should have been based on a word whose legitimate use did *not* precede its use as an epithet. If the original authors of the software knew the meaning of the word and chose it anyway, who am I to excuse the name as anything better than an unfortunate choice? I agree with you about not getting carried away. However, in light of the fact that the target group of the slur is one of the target groups for GNOME, your defense seems misplaced. Alright, I suppose I can afford to write one last email. Many may look at my arguments and think that I am somehow promoting bigotry (although I doubt that most of you do see it this way)... this seems to always be the case whenever someone stands up for freedom of expression. So let me explain just a little, I did not jump into this debate to defend the term GIMPNet itself, but rather in an attempt to defend our position regarding freedom of expression, a defence which is always risky and racy, and an argument that is too seldom made. What the people who make up the GNOME community have in common is a beautiful thing, Free Software. Whether we do it for the freedom of users, or whether it be for the sake of writing software in public, sharing knowledge and consequently producing better, more stable/reliable software than software written in the confines of a lab/company, we are in this way forward/radical thinkers. What I'm getting at here, is that the very thing which brings us all together is an idea which goes against the grain. In a way, we are all revolutionaries of sorts to be partaking in this venture. Over the past decade, I've seen this community grow more stiff, more rigid and more conservative in what we deem 'acceptable' in public. This saddens me greatly. It is very difficult to express radical thinking, forward thinking in ways which are perfectly politically correct (possible, but difficult), and what I think is so beautiful about our community is exactly this forward radical thinking, this rebellious ideal of Free Software which brings us all together is what makes our community so vibrant and great. I just think that, in general, if we want our community to flourish and grow and thrive, we need to be more accepting, not more restrictive, about what we think is acceptable in public. Imagine how many radical/racy/forward thinking blog posts we've missed out on, just because the author thought it might be too difficult to express their ideas in a way that is perfectly politically correct ? Best Regards, -Tristan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 08:55 -0500, meg ford wrote: Hi Meg, In general when people use the term PC in the US, they are talking about being adopting extra careful/ newly coined language. That's not what I'm saying. You wouldn't use the term gimp when talking to someone unless you wanted to indicate that you hate them or had were trying to start a fight. There isn't anything pc about not using such a term. You would only use it if you were specifically trying to offend someone. Just to clarify, are you saying that it's pc to say we shouldn't use derogatory epithets, or are you disagreeing with my assessment of the word? Note that I didn't say irc.gnome.org is a bad idea. Removing Gimpnet is a bad idea (I don't think that real gimps join Gimpnet to be a jerk on the IRC server, if that's truly the case then a solution for that would be to either ban those people or to lock their discussions in a IRC channel on that server). I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. We aren't getting rid of it entirely because it's specifically offensive there, but not everywhere. I would guess that gimp isn't offensive in languages other than English since we are only hearing about this from English speakers. In the case of the GIMP I can see why they a name change would be really problematic and potentially harm the project. In the case of GNOME irc I think don't see that there is an issue wrt making the change. However, maybe that's because I speak English. But since English is the official language of the project, so maybe it's important to consider making a change. What do you think? I think GNOME should introduce irc.gnome.org and alter the IRC server's MOTD but shouldn't remove the irc.gimpnet.org domain. I'm not certain that this should be done because of derogative terms like the word gimp, but rather because GNOME is GNOME, not GIMP, and it's misleading to have to connect to irc.gimpnet.org to talk to GNOME developers. Kind regards, Philip The proposal is to make irc.gnome.org be an DNS A record and we will continue to honor irc.gimpnet.org as a CNAME for one year in which case we will then remove it altogether. Gimpnet is cultural inheritance of GNOME, I think it's a bad idea to do this for that reason. Kind regards, Philip -- Philip Van Hoof Software developer Codeminded BVBA - http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On 10 May 2013 15:55, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people If it helps, I've never heard the word used this way either. However, my understanding of the common use of the word isn't any better (warning; possibly NSFW): https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gimp+masktbm=isch Richard. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
True, it's good to be forward-thinking; still, radical love is more needed than radical hate. I don't think you're advocating outright bigotry, but you're advocating what the status quo is -- non-radical -- that is, the unchecked allowance for privileged groups to espouse their views regardless of the impact on others. On 05/11/2013 04:44 AM, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 5:47 AM, Michael Hill mdhil...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Tristan Van Berkom t...@gnome.org wrote: People have common sense, they know that since we are at the zoo, there actually are monkeys to go see. Tristan, your analogy should have been based on a word whose legitimate use did *not* precede its use as an epithet. If the original authors of the software knew the meaning of the word and chose it anyway, who am I to excuse the name as anything better than an unfortunate choice? I agree with you about not getting carried away. However, in light of the fact that the target group of the slur is one of the target groups for GNOME, your defense seems misplaced. Alright, I suppose I can afford to write one last email. Many may look at my arguments and think that I am somehow promoting bigotry (although I doubt that most of you do see it this way)... this seems to always be the case whenever someone stands up for freedom of expression. So let me explain just a little, I did not jump into this debate to defend the term GIMPNet itself, but rather in an attempt to defend our position regarding freedom of expression, a defence which is always risky and racy, and an argument that is too seldom made. What the people who make up the GNOME community have in common is a beautiful thing, Free Software. Whether we do it for the freedom of users, or whether it be for the sake of writing software in public, sharing knowledge and consequently producing better, more stable/reliable software than software written in the confines of a lab/company, we are in this way forward/radical thinkers. What I'm getting at here, is that the very thing which brings us all together is an idea which goes against the grain. In a way, we are all revolutionaries of sorts to be partaking in this venture. Over the past decade, I've seen this community grow more stiff, more rigid and more conservative in what we deem 'acceptable' in public. This saddens me greatly. It is very difficult to express radical thinking, forward thinking in ways which are perfectly politically correct (possible, but difficult), and what I think is so beautiful about our community is exactly this forward radical thinking, this rebellious ideal of Free Software which brings us all together is what makes our community so vibrant and great. I just think that, in general, if we want our community to flourish and grow and thrive, we need to be more accepting, not more restrictive, about what we think is acceptable in public. Imagine how many radical/racy/forward thinking blog posts we've missed out on, just because the author thought it might be too difficult to express their ideas in a way that is perfectly politically correct ? Best Regards, -Tristan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
As an accessibility user, and noting that GNOME is known for being a world leader in open source accessibility I hope not! GNOME is meant to be a leader in free software accessibility, and we hope people will think of it as one. If they think of GNOME as open source, we need to set them straight! -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
Tristan, your analogy should have been based on a word whose legitimate use did *not* precede its use as an epithet. According to Wiktionary, the word gimp has many meanings, one being a limping gait. That meaning, the one I learned long ago, is not derogatory. I suspect that the derogatory meaning is rather new, but Wiktionary does not have information about its age. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 8:10 AM, Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org wrote: I hope not! GNOME is meant to be a leader in free software accessibility, and we hope people will think of it as one. If they think of GNOME as open source, we need to set them straight! Richard, I'll remember this each time I have to say, I'm referring to the software, not a person. (I also have GIMP installed at work where I'm surrounded by non-free software people.) The occurrence is admittedly rare, but not never. The derogatory use at *least* predates the movie (and I'd estimate was around for more than the better part of the last century)... the character was named for his (comical?) shambling gait, not because he wore a mask. Mike ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
I sent a message to point out the error of associating GNOME with the term open source: == As an accessibility user, and noting that GNOME is known for being a world leader in open source accessibility I hope not! GNOME is meant to be a leader in free software accessibility, and we hope people will think of it as one. If they think of GNOME as open source, we need to set them straight! == This is not about the word gimp. It is about a different issue. It is not surprising that Schlesinger pretends it was a statement about the word gimp, because he regularly distorts what I say. However, I see that Michael Hill also interpreted this as if the point were about the word gimp. Why was that? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, 2013-05-11 at 12:49 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: [...] However, I see that Michael Hill also interpreted this as if the point were about the word gimp. Why was that? Maybe because this is closer to the topic in discussion (which is not to change the application name, but a DNS record). -- Germán Poo-Caamaño http://calcifer.org/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
I think we need to split this thread. If people want to debate about how the community functions then it's a worthy debate and we should have it. Regarding the gimpnet name. I'm okay with leaving it, and we don't need to remove it. But we will need to make sure that irc clients have irc.gnome.org as a selection in addition to the gimpnet even if they are the same place. I hope that is a good compromise. Some of you are pontificating based on a perceived PC - if you want to discuss it, please do. I would prefer passionate debate than sullen indifference. sri ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org wrote: However, I see that Michael Hill also interpreted this as if the point were about the word gimp. Why was that? Richard, sorry for the misdirection. I commented on your first message while replying to your second. The movie was released in 1994. Mike ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, 2013-05-11 at 12:49 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: However, I see that Michael Hill also interpreted this as if the point were about the word gimp. Why was that? For the same reason that you distracted from the main message of my post. I'll grant that I probably should be calling it free software rather than open source. But the main message was not that we should call it one or the other, but that the GNOME community is extensively involved in accessibility software development and the use of gimp, while its origins are logical, is not clear to all GNOME a11y users and the first impression is one of offense taken. So, keep the thread in its focus, on whether we should or shouldn't continue with the use of gimp, and then if you feel it is worthy, start another thread on the semantic differences of free software and open source and educate us on that new thread. (Or sub-thread, if you will.) I think there's much to be debated on that topic as well, but if we did, we'd overrun this topic, which I consider to be important and worthy of discussion here. Bryen ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, 2013-05-11 at 08:10 -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: Tristan, your analogy should have been based on a word whose legitimate use did *not* precede its use as an epithet. According to Wiktionary, the word gimp has many meanings, one being a limping gait. That meaning, the one I learned long ago, is not derogatory. I suspect that the derogatory meaning is rather new, but Wiktionary does not have information about its age. For as long as I've known the word, since I was a little child in the 70's, it was uttered in a derogatory sense. Words don't just suddenly become derogatory. They evolve due to cultural usages that often predates when it officially becomes derogatory. The word dubm for example has an especially heinous and deorgatory connotation to it for the Deaf community. While I'd love to discuss the history of that word to enlighten how words become derogatory, I won't do it here in this thread. Anyone can ping me off-list if they're interested in a bit of history lesson there. :-) Bryen ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
Liam R E Quin liam at holoweb.net writes: would you prefer to join a community where you're made fun of on a routine basis, mocked, ridiculed, made to feel like shit, because you were born with one leg shorter than the other? If you looked like a small, physically deformed (usually hunchbacked) creature resembling a dry, gnarled old man[1], I'd certainly not call you a gimp. I'd call you a gnome. Benjamin 1: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/236317/gnome ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Thu, 2013-05-09 at 17:06 -0500, meg ford wrote: Hey Meg, On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Philip Van Hoof pvanh...@gnome.org wrote: On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:02 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: We are looking into changing our irc server name from irc.gimpnet.org to irc.gnome.org and looking for feedback. Why? Essentially, it's become problematic to have 'gimp' in the name of our server. To many, 'gimp' is an offensive term an given our dedication to a11y it seems counter-intuitive to have this name in our infrastructure. Yet another PCPOS in GNOME. When will this stop? Is there an end? Any? Yeah idk how PC it is to not use the term gimp. The US, where I live, has pretty strong free speech laws, but people don't use this term because it's too offensive. So I think this is kind of an I18n issue. However, GNOME's origin is partly Gtk+ (which even predates and from where GLib came). Gtk+'s origin is Gimp's toolkit. Gimp was ~ GNOME's first and or one of its first projects and actually sort of predates GNOME as a sort of ancestor of the project and this community. What we're discussing here is that for PC reasons, GNOME wants to tell its father that it is no longer its father. I think that's crazy. I'd be completely ok with adding a irc.gnome.org and perhaps even changing the MOTD of the IRC server to mention less GIMP and more GNOME. That's natural as indeed GNOME today stands on its own feet. But why remove the GimpNET domain? You don't have to use it if you don't like the word Gimp. GNOME is a heavy user of Gtk+ which stands for Gimp Toolkit. With this latest line of PC thinking, shouldn't GNOME also stop using Gtk+? You know, because Gtk+ has an 'offensive' name in its acronym. I think you're all taking this way way too far and I think its becoming POS, whatever people like Karen think about Code of Conducts (that I actually have helped write - go look up in the mailing list from what discussion 'Assume people mean well' came from and who the actors in the formation of that part were). Kind regards, Philip The proposal is to make irc.gnome.org be an DNS A record and we will continue to honor irc.gimpnet.org as a CNAME for one year in which case we will then remove it altogether. Gimpnet is cultural inheritance of GNOME, I think it's a bad idea to do this for that reason. Kind regards, Philip -- Philip Van Hoof Software developer Codeminded BVBA - http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
Hi Philip, On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 3:15 AM, Philip Van Hoof pvanh...@gnome.org wrote: On Thu, 2013-05-09 at 17:06 -0500, meg ford wrote: Hey Meg, On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Philip Van Hoof pvanh...@gnome.org wrote: On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:02 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: We are looking into changing our irc server name from irc.gimpnet.org to irc.gnome.org and looking for feedback. Why? Essentially, it's become problematic to have 'gimp' in the name of our server. To many, 'gimp' is an offensive term an given our dedication to a11y it seems counter-intuitive to have this name in our infrastructure. Yet another PCPOS in GNOME. When will this stop? Is there an end? Any? Yeah idk how PC it is to not use the term gimp. The US, where I live, has pretty strong free speech laws, but people don't use this term because it's too offensive. So I think this is kind of an I18n issue. However, GNOME's origin is partly Gtk+ (which even predates and from where GLib came). Gtk+'s origin is Gimp's toolkit. Gimp was ~ GNOME's first and or one of its first projects and actually sort of predates GNOME as a sort of ancestor of the project and this community. What we're discussing here is that for PC reasons, GNOME wants to tell its father that it is no longer its father. I think that's crazy. I'd be completely ok with adding a irc.gnome.org and perhaps even changing the MOTD of the IRC server to mention less GIMP and more GNOME. That's natural as indeed GNOME today stands on its own feet. But why remove the GimpNET domain? You don't have to use it if you don't like the word Gimp. GNOME is a heavy user of Gtk+ which stands for Gimp Toolkit. With this latest line of PC thinking, shouldn't GNOME also stop using Gtk+? You know, because Gtk+ has an 'offensive' name in its acronym. I think you're all taking this way way too far and I think its becoming POS, whatever people like Karen think about Code of Conducts (that I actually have helped write - go look up in the mailing list from what discussion 'Assume people mean well' came from and who the actors in the formation of that part were). In general when people use the term PC in the US, they are talking about being adopting extra careful/ newly coined language. That's not what I'm saying. You wouldn't use the term gimp when talking to someone unless you wanted to indicate that you hate them or had were trying to start a fight. There isn't anything pc about not using such a term. You would only use it if you were specifically trying to offend someone. Just to clarify, are you saying that it's pc to say we shouldn't use derogatory epithets, or are you disagreeing with my assessment of the word? I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. We aren't getting rid of it entirely because it's specifically offensive there, but not everywhere. I would guess that gimp isn't offensive in languages other than English since we are only hearing about this from English speakers. In the case of the GIMP I can see why they a name change would be really problematic and potentially harm the project. In the case of GNOME irc I think don't see that there is an issue wrt making the change. However, maybe that's because I speak English. But since English is the official language of the project, so maybe it's important to consider making a change. What do you think? Meg Kind regards, Philip The proposal is to make irc.gnome.org be an DNS A record and we will continue to honor irc.gimpnet.org as a CNAME for one year in which case we will then remove it altogether. Gimpnet is cultural inheritance of GNOME, I think it's a bad idea to do this for that reason. Kind regards, Philip -- Philip Van Hoof Software developer Codeminded BVBA - http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
Hi Philip, On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 9:02 AM, Philip Van Hoof pvanh...@gnome.org wrote: On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 08:55 -0500, meg ford wrote: Hi Meg, In general when people use the term PC in the US, they are talking about being adopting extra careful/ newly coined language. That's not what I'm saying. You wouldn't use the term gimp when talking to someone unless you wanted to indicate that you hate them or had were trying to start a fight. There isn't anything pc about not using such a term. You would only use it if you were specifically trying to offend someone. Just to clarify, are you saying that it's pc to say we shouldn't use derogatory epithets, or are you disagreeing with my assessment of the word? Note that I didn't say irc.gnome.org is a bad idea. Removing Gimpnet is a bad idea (I don't think that real gimps join Gimpnet to be a jerk on the IRC server, if that's truly the case then a solution for that would be to either ban those people or to lock their discussions in a IRC channel on that server). The common meaning of the term is a derogatory term for physically disabled people. Your comment above makes no sense. I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. We aren't getting rid of it entirely because it's specifically offensive there, but not everywhere. I would guess that gimp isn't offensive in languages other than English since we are only hearing about this from English speakers. In the case of the GIMP I can see why they a name change would be really problematic and potentially harm the project. In the case of GNOME irc I think don't see that there is an issue wrt making the change. However, maybe that's because I speak English. But since English is the official language of the project, so maybe it's important to consider making a change. What do you think? I think GNOME should introduce irc.gnome.org and alter the IRC server's MOTD but shouldn't remove the irc.gimpnet.org domain. I'm not certain that this should be done because of derogative terms like the word gimp, but rather because GNOME is GNOME, not GIMP, and it's misleading to have to connect to irc.gimpnet.org to talk to GNOME developers. I honestly think the name is crass, but I didn't introduce this idea so I will let Sri defend it from here on. Meg Kind regards, Philip The proposal is to make irc.gnome.org be an DNS A record and we will continue to honor irc.gimpnet.org as a CNAME for one year in which case we will then remove it altogether. Gimpnet is cultural inheritance of GNOME, I think it's a bad idea to do this for that reason. Kind regards, Philip -- Philip Van Hoof Software developer Codeminded BVBA - http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
This once was a discussion about technical things: IRC and DNS. Part of it turned into names of some stuff can be offensive in some languages, and the usual arguments apply that are known already from https://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue . As I don't expect any new findings or arguments, I should force myself to ignore any further postings, and recommend the same to anybody else. Alright then, andre -- Andre Klapper | ak...@gmx.net http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
Seriously, can everyone relax and not take every little detail so seriously? I'm all for advertising irc.gnome.org in our websites etc. But there's really no need to take down DNS entries and whatnot. On 10 May 2013 15:55, meg ford meg...@gmail.com wrote: I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. And this why you can't ever win. There will always be something that's offensive for someone in this planet so yeah just don't bother too much. If someone you're speaking to takes it offensively you can certainly explain why the name is how it is. People aren't stupid and will understand. And btw, if you have to speak about the GIMP you can also pronounce it as /ʒɪmp/ instead of /gɪmp/ or just spell it out G I M P. Cheers, Rui ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:02 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: To many, 'gimp' is an offensive term an given our dedication to a11y it seems counter-intuitive to have this name in our infrastructure. I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people (which I guess is what you're getting at[1]). What made you think that there was a connection between those 2 uses of the word? Cheers [1]: Rather than people who might need a11y technologies, which is pretty much everyone (keyboard on touchscreen, text sizes, inverse colours, etc.) ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On 05/10/2013 10:17 AM, Rui Tiago Cação Matos wrote: Seriously, can everyone relax and not take every little detail so seriously? I'm all for advertising irc.gnome.org in our websites etc. But there's really no need to take down DNS entries and whatnot. It's sort of odd for a member of a software organization to advocate being less serious about details. We have a bug tracker because details matter. Asking others to relax implies that other people are working too hard or caring too much about an issue, as though it is unimportant. Different issues are important to different people and it's a bit annoying to be told to relax about what matters to you. On 10 May 2013 15:55, meg ford meg...@gmail.com wrote: I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. And this why you can't ever win. There will always be something that's offensive for someone in this planet so yeah just don't bother too much. If by win you mean get a special permanent I AM NOT OFFENSIVE designation from the United Nations, no, you can't win. However, as a person deciding where to spend my time and what organizations to take seriously, I will say that organizations that make some efforts to act sensitively win my time and attention. And communities that act as though one person complaining deserves exactly the same amount of effort as lots of people backing a reasonable proposal -- that is, zero effort -- do lose my willingness to help out. If someone you're speaking to takes it offensively you can certainly explain why the name is how it is. People aren't stupid and will understand. You are presuming that the only time the GIMP comes up is in one-on-one conversations where the other person feels totally comfortable saying I don't like that name to one of us, who will take all the time necessary to help the other person feel comfortable. That's a pretty rare use case. Usually it's in signage, the IRC network name, and other places where the other person may just make the very understandable choice to just walk away. Or it's in a group, or a conference, or something like that where - instead of making a fuss - some of our potential users and community members just make a mental note not to bother even trying to use our software or help out. Does that help you see why it's not enough to just be willing to explain this is why our software and IRC network seem to be named after the slur bullies call your brother in school, on the street, and while rejecting him for jobs? And btw, if you have to speak about the GIMP you can also pronounce it as /ʒɪmp/ instead of /gɪmp/ or just spell it out G I M P. I will probably use that pronunciation when possible. Thanks for the idea. Cheers, Rui best, Sumana -- Sumana Harihareswara http://www.harihareswara.net/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people (which I guess is what you're getting at[1]). What made you think that there was a connection between those 2 uses of the word? I was aware of the connotation, but until earlier this thread I've been able to excuse it by saying no, it's just an acronym[1]. If what Liam says is true and it was named after the film character, it's precisely the same use of the word. Mike [1]: I'm conditioned to separate the software from the common usage, but my wife reacted with distaste when I installed it on her iMac. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 16:47 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: On 10 May 2013 15:55, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people If it helps, I've never heard the word used this way either. However, my understanding of the common use of the word isn't any better (warning; possibly NSFW): https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gimp+masktbm=isch I think a majority of people on this list will be familiar with Pulp Fiction ;) And I wasn't arguing that GIMP is a nice name, it's just that I don't understand the reasoning enunciated in the original e-mail. Saying I don't want GNOME to be associated with SM leather bound dudes is better than (possibly) creating connections that don't exist between 2 words. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, May 10, 2013 10:55 am, Bastien Nocera wrote: On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:02 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: To many, 'gimp' is an offensive term an given our dedication to a11y it seems counter-intuitive to have this name in our infrastructure. I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people (which I guess is what you're getting at[1]). What made you think that there was a connection between those 2 uses of the word? To chime in here as another US-based native english speaker, I've come across the negative reaction more than once in the past when telling people to join us on GIMPNet and also when talking to newcomers about what other awesome free software is available for them to use. It's a connection that I think people naturally make, as the word is a well known slur. Since for GNOME it's out of context to anyone who doesn't know about the GIMP and the historical relationship with GNOME, I think it can make people unnecessarily uncomfortable. karen Cheers [1]: Rather than people who might need a11y technologies, which is pretty much everyone (keyboard on touchscreen, text sizes, inverse colours, etc.) ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
Hi Bastien, On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 16:47 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: On 10 May 2013 15:55, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people If it helps, I've never heard the word used this way either. However, my understanding of the common use of the word isn't any better (warning; possibly NSFW): https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gimp+masktbm=isch I think a majority of people on this list will be familiar with Pulp Fiction ;) And I wasn't arguing that GIMP is a nice name, it's just that I don't understand the reasoning enunciated in the original e-mail. Saying I don't want GNOME to be associated with SM leather bound dudes is better than (possibly) creating connections that don't exist between 2 words. That isn't the common meaning of the word, though. SM players use it specifically because it's offensive. Which is fine in their context (let's not debate it, at least, TMI), where it is understood that it is not real life and is never directed at someone who is not consenting. The general meaning of the term irl is a slur. Meg ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Karen Sandler ka...@gnome.org wrote: Since for GNOME it's out of context to anyone who doesn't know about the GIMP and the historical relationship with GNOME, I think it can make people unnecessarily uncomfortable. This actually makes an excellent argument for irc.gnome.org independent from any connotations of the word gimp - to people who know about GNOME but not its relationship with the GIMP, join us on irc.gnome.org is an easily memorizable instruction, join us on irc.gimp.net is not. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 10:57 -0500, meg ford wrote: Hi Bastien, On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 10:51 AM, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 16:47 +0100, Richard Hughes wrote: On 10 May 2013 15:55, Bastien Nocera had...@hadess.net wrote: I've never heard the word gimp used as a slur against handicapped people If it helps, I've never heard the word used this way either. However, my understanding of the common use of the word isn't any better (warning; possibly NSFW): https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gimp+masktbm=isch I think a majority of people on this list will be familiar with Pulp Fiction ;) And I wasn't arguing that GIMP is a nice name, it's just that I don't understand the reasoning enunciated in the original e-mail. Saying I don't want GNOME to be associated with SM leather bound dudes is better than (possibly) creating connections that don't exist between 2 words. That isn't the common meaning of the word, though. SM players use it specifically because it's offensive. Which is fine in their context (let's not debate it, at least, TMI), where it is understood that it is not real life and is never directed at someone who is not consenting. The general meaning of the term irl is a slur. I'll note that this still doesn't answer my question. If somebody has access to a dictionary with good etymology, I'd like them to clue me in... ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 12:24 AM, Sumana Harihareswara suma...@panix.com wrote: On 05/10/2013 10:17 AM, Rui Tiago Cação Matos wrote: Seriously, can everyone relax and not take every little detail so seriously? I'm all for advertising irc.gnome.org in our websites etc. But there's really no need to take down DNS entries and whatnot. It's sort of odd for a member of a software organization to advocate being less serious about details. We have a bug tracker because details matter. Asking others to relax implies that other people are working too hard or caring too much about an issue, as though it is unimportant. Different issues are important to different people and it's a bit annoying to be told to relax about what matters to you. On 10 May 2013 15:55, meg ford meg...@gmail.com wrote: I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. And this why you can't ever win. There will always be something that's offensive for someone in this planet so yeah just don't bother too much. If by win you mean get a special permanent I AM NOT OFFENSIVE designation from the United Nations, no, you can't win. However, as a person deciding where to spend my time and what organizations to take seriously, I will say that organizations that make some efforts to act sensitively win my time and attention. See here is a very interesting conflict. Some of us think that we should be very careful about what words we choose to represent GNOME, to the point of even renaming things in GNOME because someone might be offended. Like it or not, the decisions we make at this scope has an undertone, what is appropriate for an IRC network name, eventually becomes what is appropriate for a program name, or even a program's release name, and eventually what is appropriate to write in emails on our mailing lists and what is appropriate to post in our blogs. One the one hand, you have the theory that being very careful is an attitude which makes GNOME appear more welcoming, and on the other hand, being very careful is exactly the opposite. Would you like to join a community where everything you say is under strict scrutiny ? where you cannot freely express yourself in your blog without being really careful to make all of your comments gender neutral and politically correct ? Or would you rather be a part of a community where people are a bit more relaxed and laid back, where you can just be yourself, express yourself freely, assume that people mean well and not be afraid that you will be accused for expressing yourself in a way that might be misconstrued ? If one were to say that irc.gimp.net refers to 'gimp' and is intentionally rude, that would definitely count as misconstrued, do we really want to set an example to gnome contributors that anything they say in our public infrastructure might be frowned upon, just because it could be taken out of context in some way ? Personally I am (obviously) of the camp which would rather have a relaxed and laid back attitude. Cheers, -Tristan And communities that act as though one person complaining deserves exactly the same amount of effort as lots of people backing a reasonable proposal -- that is, zero effort -- do lose my willingness to help out. If someone you're speaking to takes it offensively you can certainly explain why the name is how it is. People aren't stupid and will understand. You are presuming that the only time the GIMP comes up is in one-on-one conversations where the other person feels totally comfortable saying I don't like that name to one of us, who will take all the time necessary to help the other person feel comfortable. That's a pretty rare use case. Usually it's in signage, the IRC network name, and other places where the other person may just make the very understandable choice to just walk away. Or it's in a group, or a conference, or something like that where - instead of making a fuss - some of our potential users and community members just make a mental note not to bother even trying to use our software or help out. Does that help you see why it's not enough to just be willing to explain this is why our software and IRC network seem to be named after the slur bullies call your brother in school, on the street, and while rejecting him for jobs? And btw, if you have to speak about the GIMP you can also pronounce it as /ʒɪmp/ instead of /gɪmp/ or just spell it out G I M P. I will probably use that pronunciation when possible. Thanks for the idea. Cheers, Rui best, Sumana -- Sumana Harihareswara http://www.harihareswara.net/ ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, 2013-05-11 at 01:27 +0900, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: Would you like to join a community where everything you say is under strict scrutiny ? where you cannot freely express yourself in your blog without being really careful to make all of your comments gender neutral and politically correct ? Or would you prefer to join a community where you're made fun of on a routine basis, mocked, ridiculed, made to feel like shit, because you were born with one leg shorter than the other, or you were in a bomb blast and got injured? What if we start jabber.gnomefags.com? or a message that says, It's gone Dutch when a device can't be mounted? Because some undergraduate thought it was funny in their dorm room to throw stones out of the window at the people who have to walk slowly. You can express yourself in your blog as freely as you like, subject to local laws, but if you claim to -- or are seen to -- represent the GNOME project as a whole then yes, you have a responsibility to be respectful of others in that context. The problem is the way labels are used in some cultures as a way to exclude and discriminate against people - a practice that's so entrenched in US (and UK) culture (for example) that there are laws about it. This may be a cultural difference itself that doesn't translate into all other languages, I'm not sure. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 2:07 AM, Liam R E Quin l...@holoweb.net wrote: On Sat, 2013-05-11 at 01:27 +0900, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: Would you like to join a community where everything you say is under strict scrutiny ? where you cannot freely express yourself in your blog without being really careful to make all of your comments gender neutral and politically correct ? Or would you prefer to join a community where you're made fun of on a routine basis, mocked, ridiculed, made to feel like shit, because you were born with one leg shorter than the other, or you were in a bomb blast and got injured? I think you are exaggerating, to the extreme, even. You are suggesting that people should take things out of context, misinterpret the GIMP acronym, and be offended. You seem to even suggest that the name GIMP is intentionally offensive. The GIMP, is, and always has been to my knowledge, the GNU Image Manipulation Program: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIMP What if we start jabber.gnomefags.com? or a message that says, It's gone Dutch when a device can't be mounted? Because some undergraduate thought it was funny in their dorm room to throw stones out of the window at the people who have to walk slowly. You can express yourself in your blog as freely as you like, subject to local laws, but if you claim to -- or are seen to -- represent the GNOME project as a whole then yes, you have a responsibility to be respectful of others in that context. And the plot thickens. If your blog is aggregated on planet.gnome.org, one could say that you are representing GNOME. One could even say that referring to the GNU Image Manipulation Program in your blog is offensive... just because some people might misinterpret what you said as something they understand as offensive. This is going a bit far, I think. To be clear, I do think that we should try not to offend each other, I just don't think that we should expect that others will misconstrue what we've said as something offensive, and I don't think that we should scare off our contributors, those who would represent GNOME in public, by holding them/us to such strict standards. Cheers, -Tristan The problem is the way labels are used in some cultures as a way to exclude and discriminate against people - a practice that's so entrenched in US (and UK) culture (for example) that there are laws about it. This may be a cultural difference itself that doesn't translate into all other languages, I'm not sure. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On 05/10/2013 12:27 PM, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 12:24 AM, Sumana Harihareswara suma...@panix.com wrote: On 05/10/2013 10:17 AM, Rui Tiago Cação Matos wrote: Seriously, can everyone relax and not take every little detail so seriously? I'm all for advertising irc.gnome.org in our websites etc. But there's really no need to take down DNS entries and whatnot. It's sort of odd for a member of a software organization to advocate being less serious about details. We have a bug tracker because details matter. Asking others to relax implies that other people are working too hard or caring too much about an issue, as though it is unimportant. Different issues are important to different people and it's a bit annoying to be told to relax about what matters to you. On 10 May 2013 15:55, meg ford meg...@gmail.com wrote: I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. And this why you can't ever win. There will always be something that's offensive for someone in this planet so yeah just don't bother too much. If by win you mean get a special permanent I AM NOT OFFENSIVE designation from the United Nations, no, you can't win. However, as a person deciding where to spend my time and what organizations to take seriously, I will say that organizations that make some efforts to act sensitively win my time and attention. See here is a very interesting conflict. Some of us think that we should be very careful about what words we choose to represent GNOME, to the point of even renaming things in GNOME because someone might be offended. It's not just because there might exist one who is offended, it's about not being improper. Like it or not, the decisions we make at this scope has an undertone, what is appropriate for an IRC network name, eventually becomes what is appropriate for a program name, or even a program's release name, and eventually what is appropriate to write in emails on our mailing lists and what is appropriate to post in our blogs. Already there is a spectrum of what is and is not appropriate. It's not appropriate, for example, to name projects in ways that allude to abortion, the holocaust, slavery etc. GNOME is a Free Software community, and should stick to that. One the one hand, you have the theory that being very careful is an attitude which makes GNOME appear more welcoming, and on the other hand, being very careful is exactly the opposite. It makes GNOME more welcoming to some people, while simultaneously asking more of others. Would you like to join a community where everything you say is under strict scrutiny ? where you cannot freely express yourself in your blog without being really careful to make all of your comments gender neutral and politically correct ? This is the Internet. Everything you say is public and subject to strict scrutiny. Again there is a spectrum of what is and is not appropriate. The topic at hand is really getting at where to delineate this spectrum -- who gets to say what is appropriate, and whose sensibilities are taken into account. Or would you rather be a part of a community where people are a bit more relaxed and laid back, where you can just be yourself, express yourself freely, assume that people mean well and not be afraid that you will be accused for expressing yourself in a way that might be misconstrued ? If I was a casual racist, sexist, ableist, etc. it would probably be easiest to fit in a community that did not recognize such things as problematic. Should GNOME be yet another space for these people to fit in without being questioned, or should GNOME push its community to become better? If one were to say that irc.gimp.net refers to 'gimp' and is intentionally rude, that would definitely count as misconstrued, do we really want to set an example to gnome contributors that anything they say in our public infrastructure might be frowned upon, just because it could be taken out of context in some way ? It's not taken out of context, it's just inappropriate. Replace 'gimp' with a racial slur, and it may be easier to understand. We want to set an example that GNOME strives to be socially conscious and inclusive of all walks of life. Personally I am (obviously) of the camp which would rather have a relaxed and laid back attitude. relaxed seems to me to mean unchallenged. If the wrong aren't challenged, this is a problem. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fr, 2013-05-10 at 11:55 -0400, Karen Sandler wrote: I've come across the negative reaction more than once in the past when telling people to join us on GIMPNet One time on #gnome on freenode somebody was asking a11y specific questions for his quadriplegic friend and I redirected him to #a11y on irc.gnome.org. When he saw that the networks name was GIMPNet he got really furious and accused me of tricking him to connect to something called GIMPNet just to make fun of him and his friend. So in the case of a11y the network name is really really unfortunate and given GNOME's a11y efforts it should be reason enough to change the network name. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Hashem Nasarat hnasa...@gmail.com wrote: On 05/10/2013 12:27 PM, Tristan Van Berkom wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 12:24 AM, Sumana Harihareswara suma...@panix.com wrote: On 05/10/2013 10:17 AM, Rui Tiago Cação Matos wrote: Seriously, can everyone relax and not take every little detail so seriously? I'm all for advertising irc.gnome.org in our websites etc. But there's really no need to take down DNS entries and whatnot. It's sort of odd for a member of a software organization to advocate being less serious about details. We have a bug tracker because details matter. Asking others to relax implies that other people are working too hard or caring too much about an issue, as though it is unimportant. Different issues are important to different people and it's a bit annoying to be told to relax about what matters to you. On 10 May 2013 15:55, meg ford meg...@gmail.com wrote: I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. And this why you can't ever win. There will always be something that's offensive for someone in this planet so yeah just don't bother too much. If by win you mean get a special permanent I AM NOT OFFENSIVE designation from the United Nations, no, you can't win. However, as a person deciding where to spend my time and what organizations to take seriously, I will say that organizations that make some efforts to act sensitively win my time and attention. See here is a very interesting conflict. Some of us think that we should be very careful about what words we choose to represent GNOME, to the point of even renaming things in GNOME because someone might be offended. It's not just because there might exist one who is offended, it's about not being improper. But how do you define improper ? Below you make the argument that there is a 'spectrum' of what 'is' or 'is not' proper. Defining a spectrum for what is 'proper' or not, based on content alone, is going to leave little room for grey area, and little room for any expression at all. Saying anything at all becomes like walking in a mine field (maybe political leaders have to stoop to this level of political correctness, but I don't think an open community of free software enthusiasts signed up for this). I hope you recognize at least that this expectation from our contributors is something that seriously raises the bar of entry (as specially since we can't expect that most contributors even speak english as a first language, or that people will just 'know' what content is 'proper' or not). My opinion is only that 'properness' of content (be it something that someone expressed, or the name of something) should be judged for it's intent and in context, not just for the content itself. Example: when we are a the zoo in South America... I can say let's go see the monkeys, even though in parts of South America the term 'monkey' can be a harsh racist term. People have common sense, they know that since we are at the zoo, there actually are monkeys to go see. Best Regards, -Tristan Like it or not, the decisions we make at this scope has an undertone, what is appropriate for an IRC network name, eventually becomes what is appropriate for a program name, or even a program's release name, and eventually what is appropriate to write in emails on our mailing lists and what is appropriate to post in our blogs. Already there is a spectrum of what is and is not appropriate. It's not appropriate, for example, to name projects in ways that allude to abortion, the holocaust, slavery etc. GNOME is a Free Software community, and should stick to that. One the one hand, you have the theory that being very careful is an attitude which makes GNOME appear more welcoming, and on the other hand, being very careful is exactly the opposite. It makes GNOME more welcoming to some people, while simultaneously asking more of others. Would you like to join a community where everything you say is under strict scrutiny ? where you cannot freely express yourself in your blog without being really careful to make all of your comments gender neutral and politically correct ? This is the Internet. Everything you say is public and subject to strict scrutiny. Again there is a spectrum of what is and is not appropriate. The topic at hand is really getting at where to delineate this spectrum -- who gets to say what is appropriate, and whose sensibilities are taken into account. Or would you rather be a part of a community where people are a bit more relaxed and laid back, where you can just be yourself, express yourself freely, assume that people mean well and not be afraid that you will be accused for expressing yourself in a way that might be misconstrued ? If I was a casual racist, sexist, ableist, etc. it would probably be easiest to fit in a community that did not recognize such things
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
I'm just jumping into this conversation as I only just now spotted it. So I'm not responding directly to any one particular post, but making a general statement. As an accessibility user, and noting that GNOME is known for being a world leader in open source accessibility and has often made accessibility its selling point for adoption in large environments, it has always been a really really odd experience for me to then tell a new user who might be using accessibility software Come visit us on IRC and log into gimpnet. I'm always following that with an immediate apology, disclaimer, and explanation of its roots. And while some here might thing its just a U.S. thing I've encountered people being offended or puzzled by the use of gimp even in other countries. This is certainly not a local issue. And I'm always puzzled why it is often those who slam political-correctness when it is not THEM who are directly affected or alienated by an issue. I have no problems with keeping gimpnet in the background but publicly advertising gnome.org. It is a fair compromise between social and technical issues. And I commend Sriram for starting this conversation which has popped up far too often in many circles over the years. It is time to address it and demonstrate that GNOME is a leader in accessibility not just technologically but also socially. Bryen M Yunashko On Fri, 2013-05-10 at 11:24 -0400, Sumana Harihareswara wrote: On 05/10/2013 10:17 AM, Rui Tiago Cação Matos wrote: Seriously, can everyone relax and not take every little detail so seriously? I'm all for advertising irc.gnome.org in our websites etc. But there's really no need to take down DNS entries and whatnot. It's sort of odd for a member of a software organization to advocate being less serious about details. We have a bug tracker because details matter. Asking others to relax implies that other people are working too hard or caring too much about an issue, as though it is unimportant. Different issues are important to different people and it's a bit annoying to be told to relax about what matters to you. On 10 May 2013 15:55, meg ford meg...@gmail.com wrote: I'm saying that it's an I18n issue. I recently read that the GNOME foot is insulting in Thailand so we are trying not to use it there. And this why you can't ever win. There will always be something that's offensive for someone in this planet so yeah just don't bother too much. If by win you mean get a special permanent I AM NOT OFFENSIVE designation from the United Nations, no, you can't win. However, as a person deciding where to spend my time and what organizations to take seriously, I will say that organizations that make some efforts to act sensitively win my time and attention. And communities that act as though one person complaining deserves exactly the same amount of effort as lots of people backing a reasonable proposal -- that is, zero effort -- do lose my willingness to help out. If someone you're speaking to takes it offensively you can certainly explain why the name is how it is. People aren't stupid and will understand. You are presuming that the only time the GIMP comes up is in one-on-one conversations where the other person feels totally comfortable saying I don't like that name to one of us, who will take all the time necessary to help the other person feel comfortable. That's a pretty rare use case. Usually it's in signage, the IRC network name, and other places where the other person may just make the very understandable choice to just walk away. Or it's in a group, or a conference, or something like that where - instead of making a fuss - some of our potential users and community members just make a mental note not to bother even trying to use our software or help out. Does that help you see why it's not enough to just be willing to explain this is why our software and IRC network seem to be named after the slur bullies call your brother in school, on the street, and while rejecting him for jobs? And btw, if you have to speak about the GIMP you can also pronounce it as /ʒɪmp/ instead of /gɪmp/ or just spell it out G I M P. I will probably use that pronunciation when possible. Thanks for the idea. Cheers, Rui best, Sumana ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Tristan Van Berkom t...@gnome.org wrote: People have common sense, they know that since we are at the zoo, there actually are monkeys to go see. Tristan, your analogy should have been based on a word whose legitimate use did *not* precede its use as an epithet. If the original authors of the software knew the meaning of the word and chose it anyway, who am I to excuse the name as anything better than an unfortunate choice? I agree with you about not getting carried away. However, in light of the fact that the target group of the slur is one of the target groups for GNOME, your defense seems misplaced. Mike ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
2013/5/8 Sriram Ramkrishna s...@ramkrishna.me The proposal is to make irc.gnome.org be an DNS A record and we will continue to honor irc.gimpnet.org as a CNAME for one year in which case we will then remove it altogether. A little clarification about this, the GNOME Sysadmin team doesn't have access to the DNS zone files for the gimp.org domain, and really there is no plan to change / update / modify any of the irc.*.gimp.*'s DNS entries. The GIMPNET network currently hosts a lot more channels than the GNOME-specific ones, so we can't and we won't drop irc.gimp.org/net all together and switch them to be irc.gnome.org. The current DNS entry is setup as a CNAME, that means connecting to irc.gnome.org will redirect your client to irc.gimp.org. The idea here is to switch the DNS entry for irc.gnome.org to be an A record pointing to the irc.gimp.org's IP and listing the new entry (irc.gnome.org) as the official place contributors should connect to. That said, any of the irc.*.gimp.* entries will remain as it is (really there's no need to update / delete the relevant entry for the solely reason that GIMPNET doesn't host only GNOME channels, we can't define GIMPNET as the *Official* GNOME network as of now), what will change is how the DNS record for the irc.gnome.org subdomain will look like, from a CNAME (plain DNS redirect) to an A record. -- Cheers, Andrea Debian Developer, Fedora / EPEL packager, GNOME Sysadmin, GNOME Foundation Membership Elections Committee Chairman Homepage: http://www.gnome.org/~av ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 01:43:45PM +0200, Andrea Veri wrote: The current DNS entry is setup as a CNAME, that means connecting to irc.gnome.org will redirect your client to irc.gimp.org. The idea here is to switch the DNS entry for irc.gnome.org to be an A record pointing to the irc.gimp.org's IP and listing the new entry (irc.gnome.org) as the official place contributors should connect to. That said, any of the irc.*.gimp.* entries will remain as it is (really there's no need to update / delete the relevant entry for the solely reason that GIMPNET doesn't host only GNOME channels, we can't define GIMPNET as the *Official* GNOME network as of now), what will change is how the DNS record for the irc.gnome.org subdomain will look like, from a CNAME (plain DNS redirect) to an A record. Then, with all due respect, I am not sure the proposed solution sufficiently addresses the initial concern (or which I was also originally not aware, not being a native speaker of English myself). IRC servers provide the server name in the 004 message upon connection and in the 351 reply to the VERSION command. They also (commonly) inform the network name in the de facto standard 005 numeric. That is the case for GIMPNet. Please note that, in the (stripped) transcript below, I specifically informed the server that I was trying to connect to irc.gnome.org (third argument to the USER command): gpastore@neodymium:~$ telnet irc.gnome.org 6667 Trying 82.99.16.155... Connected to irc.gimp.org. Escape character is '^]'. NICK fatalerror USER gpastore neodymium.pastore.eng.br irc.gnome.org :Guilherme Pastore :irc.eagle.y.se 001 fatalerror :Welcome to the Internet Relay Network fatalerror :irc.eagle.y.se 002 fatalerror :Your host is irc.eagle.y.se[irc.eagle.y.se/6667], running version 2.8/gimpnet-0.1beta3 :irc.eagle.y.se 004 fatalerror irc.eagle.y.se 2.8/gimpnet-0.1beta3 oOiwszcrkfydnxb biklmnopstve :irc.eagle.y.se 005 fatalerror WALLCHOPS PREFIX=(ov)@+ CHANTYPES=# MAXCHANNELS=20 MAXBANS=50 NICKLEN=39 TOPICLEN=500 KICKLEN=90 NETWORK=GIMPNet CHANMODES=be,k,l,imnpst EXCEPTS MODES=4 :are supported by this server VERSION :irc.eagle.y.se 351 fatalerror 2.8/gimpnet-0.1beta3(20020217_2). irc.eagle.y.se :ACeGHiMpZ TS5ow :irc.eagle.y.se 005 fatalerror WALLCHOPS PREFIX=(ov)@+ CHANTYPES=# MAXCHANNELS=20 MAXBANS=50 NICKLEN=39 TOPICLEN=500 KICKLEN=90 NETWORK=GIMPNet CHANMODES=be,k,l,imnpst EXCEPTS MODES=4 :are supported by this server This is what all IRC clients I know will show and, as a consequence, what the user will see: GIMPNet - irc.eagle.y.se, as informed by the server, and not irc.gnome.org, solely because it is an A instead of CNAME DNS record. Just my two cents. Kind regards, Guilherme ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
The IRCD ran by the GIMPNET team has all the configuration files pointing to their specific subdomains, that obviously won't change by just moving the CNAME to an A record. But that's actually expected since we don't run an IRCD server in house on the GNOME Infrastructure. (and that could be the only way for 'Your host is $hostname' to match with irc.gnome.org) I'm not sure if the GIMPNET team will agree to fix their MOTD et all to show the user connected to irc.gnome.org successfully for one main reason: GIMPNET is not only the GNOME IRC Network, but it currently serves many other irc channels not strictly GNOME-related. 2013/5/9 Guilherme de Siqueira Pastore gpast...@gnome.org On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 01:43:45PM +0200, Andrea Veri wrote: The current DNS entry is setup as a CNAME, that means connecting to irc.gnome.org will redirect your client to irc.gimp.org. The idea here is to switch the DNS entry for irc.gnome.org to be an A record pointing to the irc.gimp.org's IP and listing the new entry (irc.gnome.org) as the official place contributors should connect to. That said, any of the irc.*.gimp.* entries will remain as it is (really there's no need to update / delete the relevant entry for the solely reason that GIMPNET doesn't host only GNOME channels, we can't define GIMPNET as the *Official* GNOME network as of now), what will change is how the DNS record for the irc.gnome.org subdomain will look like, from a CNAME (plain DNS redirect) to an A record. Then, with all due respect, I am not sure the proposed solution sufficiently addresses the initial concern (or which I was also originally not aware, not being a native speaker of English myself). IRC servers provide the server name in the 004 message upon connection and in the 351 reply to the VERSION command. They also (commonly) inform the network name in the de facto standard 005 numeric. That is the case for GIMPNet. Please note that, in the (stripped) transcript below, I specifically informed the server that I was trying to connect to irc.gnome.org (third argument to the USER command): gpastore@neodymium:~$ telnet irc.gnome.org 6667 Trying 82.99.16.155... Connected to irc.gimp.org. Escape character is '^]'. NICK fatalerror USER gpastore neodymium.pastore.eng.br irc.gnome.org :Guilherme Pastore :irc.eagle.y.se 001 fatalerror :Welcome to the Internet Relay Network fatalerror :irc.eagle.y.se 002 fatalerror :Your host is irc.eagle.y.se[ irc.eagle.y.se/6667], running version 2.8/gimpnet-0.1beta3 :irc.eagle.y.se 004 fatalerror irc.eagle.y.se 2.8/gimpnet-0.1beta3 oOiwszcrkfydnxb biklmnopstve :irc.eagle.y.se 005 fatalerror WALLCHOPS PREFIX=(ov)@+ CHANTYPES=# MAXCHANNELS=20 MAXBANS=50 NICKLEN=39 TOPICLEN=500 KICKLEN=90 NETWORK=GIMPNet CHANMODES=be,k,l,imnpst EXCEPTS MODES=4 :are supported by this server VERSION :irc.eagle.y.se 351 fatalerror 2.8/gimpnet-0.1beta3(20020217_2). irc.eagle.y.se :ACeGHiMpZ TS5ow :irc.eagle.y.se 005 fatalerror WALLCHOPS PREFIX=(ov)@+ CHANTYPES=# MAXCHANNELS=20 MAXBANS=50 NICKLEN=39 TOPICLEN=500 KICKLEN=90 NETWORK=GIMPNet CHANMODES=be,k,l,imnpst EXCEPTS MODES=4 :are supported by this server This is what all IRC clients I know will show and, as a consequence, what the user will see: GIMPNet - irc.eagle.y.se, as informed by the server, and not irc.gnome.org, solely because it is an A instead of CNAME DNS record. Just my two cents. Kind regards, Guilherme -- Cheers, Andrea Debian Developer, Fedora / EPEL packager, GNOME Sysadmin, GNOME Foundation Membership Elections Committee Chairman Homepage: http://www.gnome.org/~av ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 05:37:52PM +0200, Andrea Veri wrote: The IRCD ran by the GIMPNET team has all the configuration files pointing to their specific subdomains, that obviously won't change by just moving the CNAME to an A record. But that's actually expected since we don't run an IRCD server in house on the GNOME Infrastructure. (and that could be the only way for 'Your host is $hostname' to match with irc.gnome.org) There actually are some ircd implementations providing a feature of virtual hosts. Although debatable in many aspects, it could allow anyone connecting to any GIMPNet server to be shown, to themselves and others, as connected to irc.gnome.org, as long as that was the server informed in the USER command. I do not believe that the ircd behind GIMPNet has this feature, though. I'm not sure if the GIMPNET team will agree to fix their MOTD et all to show the user connected to irc.gnome.org successfully for one main reason: GIMPNET is not only the GNOME IRC Network, but it currently serves many other irc channels not strictly GNOME-related. The MOTD has no mention to *gimp*, if you take a closer look. Neither do the server names, as a matter of fact. People are still connected to GIMPNet, however, as the network identifier. Anyway, that was exactly the point of my last e-mail. I was simply trying to argue that it is sure possible to switch from a CNAME to an A DNS record. This is a technicality with little practical effect (as long as GNOME keeps track of any changes in servers and their IP addresses). We can also direct people to irc.gnome.org instead of irc.gimp.org, which may be good in terms of public relations, but I think that is already the case. But doing all that will not change the fact that they will still see themselves connected to GIMPNet - which is a problem well outside the scope of DNS changes. To be honest, I am not even convinced there is indeed a problem, or at least one we can solve (particularly while The GIMP continues to be an important piece of any free desktop and continues to be called The GIMP). I was just pointing out that, although the proposed change can be put into effect without much further consideration, the original issue remains an issue. 2013/5/9 Guilherme de Siqueira Pastore gpast...@gnome.org On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 01:43:45PM +0200, Andrea Veri wrote: The current DNS entry is setup as a CNAME, that means connecting to irc.gnome.org will redirect your client to irc.gimp.org. The idea here is to switch the DNS entry for irc.gnome.org to be an A record pointing to the irc.gimp.org's IP and listing the new entry (irc.gnome.org) as the official place contributors should connect to. That said, any of the irc.*.gimp.* entries will remain as it is (really there's no need to update / delete the relevant entry for the solely reason that GIMPNET doesn't host only GNOME channels, we can't define GIMPNET as the *Official* GNOME network as of now), what will change is how the DNS record for the irc.gnome.org subdomain will look like, from a CNAME (plain DNS redirect) to an A record. Then, with all due respect, I am not sure the proposed solution sufficiently addresses the initial concern (or which I was also originally not aware, not being a native speaker of English myself). IRC servers provide the server name in the 004 message upon connection and in the 351 reply to the VERSION command. They also (commonly) inform the network name in the de facto standard 005 numeric. That is the case for GIMPNet. Please note that, in the (stripped) transcript below, I specifically informed the server that I was trying to connect to irc.gnome.org (third argument to the USER command): gpastore@neodymium:~$ telnet irc.gnome.org 6667 Trying 82.99.16.155... Connected to irc.gimp.org. Escape character is '^]'. NICK fatalerror USER gpastore neodymium.pastore.eng.br irc.gnome.org :Guilherme Pastore :irc.eagle.y.se 001 fatalerror :Welcome to the Internet Relay Network fatalerror :irc.eagle.y.se 002 fatalerror :Your host is irc.eagle.y.se[ irc.eagle.y.se/6667], running version 2.8/gimpnet-0.1beta3 :irc.eagle.y.se 004 fatalerror irc.eagle.y.se 2.8/gimpnet-0.1beta3 oOiwszcrkfydnxb biklmnopstve :irc.eagle.y.se 005 fatalerror WALLCHOPS PREFIX=(ov)@+ CHANTYPES=# MAXCHANNELS=20 MAXBANS=50 NICKLEN=39 TOPICLEN=500 KICKLEN=90 NETWORK=GIMPNet CHANMODES=be,k,l,imnpst EXCEPTS MODES=4 :are supported by this server VERSION :irc.eagle.y.se 351 fatalerror 2.8/gimpnet-0.1beta3(20020217_2). irc.eagle.y.se :ACeGHiMpZ TS5ow :irc.eagle.y.se 005 fatalerror WALLCHOPS PREFIX=(ov)@+ CHANTYPES=# MAXCHANNELS=20 MAXBANS=50 NICKLEN=39 TOPICLEN=500 KICKLEN=90 NETWORK=GIMPNet CHANMODES=be,k,l,imnpst EXCEPTS MODES=4 :are supported by this server This is what all IRC clients I know will show and, as a consequence, what the user will see: GIMPNet - irc.eagle.y.se,
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Guilherme de Siqueira Pastore gpast...@gnome.org wrote: On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 05:37:52PM +0200, Andrea Veri wrote: The IRCD ran by the GIMPNET team has all the configuration files pointing to their specific subdomains, that obviously won't change by just moving the CNAME to an A record. But that's actually expected since we don't run an IRCD server in house on the GNOME Infrastructure. (and that could be the only way for 'Your host is $hostname' to match with irc.gnome.org) There actually are some ircd implementations providing a feature of virtual hosts. Although debatable in many aspects, it could allow anyone connecting to any GIMPNet server to be shown, to themselves and others, as connected to irc.gnome.org, as long as that was the server informed in the USER command. I do not believe that the ircd behind GIMPNet has this feature, though. I'm not sure if the GIMPNET team will agree to fix their MOTD et all to show the user connected to irc.gnome.org successfully for one main reason: GIMPNET is not only the GNOME IRC Network, but it currently serves many other irc channels not strictly GNOME-related. The MOTD has no mention to *gimp*, if you take a closer look. Neither do the server names, as a matter of fact. People are still connected to GIMPNet, however, as the network identifier. Anyway, that was exactly the point of my last e-mail. I was simply trying to argue that it is sure possible to switch from a CNAME to an A DNS record. This is a technicality with little practical effect (as long as GNOME keeps track of any changes in servers and their IP addresses). We can also direct people to irc.gnome.org instead of irc.gimp.org, which may be good in terms of public relations, but I think that is already the case. But doing all that will not change the fact that they will still see themselves connected to GIMPNet - which is a problem well outside the scope of DNS changes. To be honest, I am not even convinced there is indeed a problem, or at least one we can solve (particularly while The GIMP continues to be an important piece of any free desktop and continues to be called The GIMP). As a native English speaker I can verify that the term it is indeed a problem. The GIMP, however, is widely used by people I know who don't even know what Free Software is. Changing its name could have pretty negative consequences for their project I would imagine (due to reduced name recognition), even though the acronym is unfortunate and offensive. Meg Ford I was just pointing out that, although the proposed change can be put into effect without much further consideration, the original issue remains an issue. 2013/5/9 Guilherme de Siqueira Pastore gpast...@gnome.org On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 01:43:45PM +0200, Andrea Veri wrote: The current DNS entry is setup as a CNAME, that means connecting to irc.gnome.org will redirect your client to irc.gimp.org. The idea here is to switch the DNS entry for irc.gnome.org to be an A record pointing to the irc.gimp.org's IP and listing the new entry (irc.gnome.org) as the official place contributors should connect to. That said, any of the irc.*.gimp.* entries will remain as it is (really there's no need to update / delete the relevant entry for the solely reason that GIMPNET doesn't host only GNOME channels, we can't define GIMPNET as the *Official* GNOME network as of now), what will change is how the DNS record for the irc.gnome.org subdomain will look like, from a CNAME (plain DNS redirect) to an A record. Then, with all due respect, I am not sure the proposed solution sufficiently addresses the initial concern (or which I was also originally not aware, not being a native speaker of English myself). IRC servers provide the server name in the 004 message upon connection and in the 351 reply to the VERSION command. They also (commonly) inform the network name in the de facto standard 005 numeric. That is the case for GIMPNet. Please note that, in the (stripped) transcript below, I specifically informed the server that I was trying to connect to irc.gnome.org (third argument to the USER command): gpastore@neodymium:~$ telnet irc.gnome.org 6667 Trying 82.99.16.155... Connected to irc.gimp.org. Escape character is '^]'. NICK fatalerror USER gpastore neodymium.pastore.eng.br irc.gnome.org :Guilherme Pastore :irc.eagle.y.se 001 fatalerror :Welcome to the Internet Relay Network fatalerror :irc.eagle.y.se 002 fatalerror :Your host is irc.eagle.y.se[ irc.eagle.y.se/6667], running version 2.8/gimpnet-0.1beta3 :irc.eagle.y.se 004 fatalerror irc.eagle.y.se 2.8/gimpnet-0.1beta3 oOiwszcrkfydnxb biklmnopstve :irc.eagle.y.se 005 fatalerror WALLCHOPS PREFIX=(ov)@+ CHANTYPES=# MAXCHANNELS=20 MAXBANS=50 NICKLEN=39 TOPICLEN=500
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
Hey, On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Philip Van Hoof pvanh...@gnome.org wrote: On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:02 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: We are looking into changing our irc server name from irc.gimpnet.org to irc.gnome.org and looking for feedback. Why? Essentially, it's become problematic to have 'gimp' in the name of our server. To many, 'gimp' is an offensive term an given our dedication to a11y it seems counter-intuitive to have this name in our infrastructure. Yet another PCPOS in GNOME. When will this stop? Is there an end? Any? Yeah idk how PC it is to not use the term gimp. The US, where I live, has pretty strong free speech laws, but people don't use this term because it's too offensive. So I think this is kind of an I18n issue. Meg Ford The proposal is to make irc.gnome.org be an DNS A record and we will continue to honor irc.gimpnet.org as a CNAME for one year in which case we will then remove it altogether. Gimpnet is cultural inheritance of GNOME, I think it's a bad idea to do this for that reason. Kind regards, Philip -- Philip Van Hoof Software developer Codeminded BVBA - http://codeminded.be ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Thu, 2013-05-09 at 13:28 -0500, meg ford wrote: As a native English speaker I can verify that the term it is indeed a problem. The GIMP, however, is widely used by people I know who don't even know what Free Software is. Changing its name could have pretty negative consequences for their project I would imagine No-one is asking the GIMP to change its name (at least not in this thread). This is about renaming the IRC network for the GNOME project as a whole from gimpnet to gnome.net. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Wed, May 8, 2013 3:53 pm, Philip Van Hoof wrote: Yet another PCPOS in GNOME. When will this stop? Is there an end? Any? I refer you to GNOME's Code of Conduct: https://live.gnome.org/CodeOfConduct/ Be respectful and considerate, patient and generous. Please take this into consideration in future posts. karen ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
We are looking into changing our irc server name from irc.gimpnet.org to irc.gnome.org and looking for feedback. Essentially, it's become problematic to have 'gimp' in the name of our server. To many, 'gimp' is an offensive term an given our dedication to a11y it seems counter-intuitive to have this name in our infrastructure. The proposal is to make irc.gnome.org be an DNS A record and we will continue to honor irc.gimpnet.org as a CNAME for one year in which case we will then remove it altogether. Other than the name of the server being changed and possibly any associated certs I do not forsee any other impact. Folks will have to change the name of the server they connect to, software like XChat will need to update their config files of default IRC servers to reflect the change. ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:02 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: We are looking into changing our irc server name from irc.gimpnet.org to irc.gnome.org and looking for feedback. I think you mean irc.gimp.org or irc.gimp.net. Essentially, it's become problematic to have 'gimp' in the name of our server. To many, 'gimp' is an offensive term an given our dedication to a11y it seems counter-intuitive to have this name in our infrastructure. Although, GIMP is an acronym I was not aware that connotation of gimp (as a non-English speaker I am not aware of many words either). With due respect, I think it is a coincidence. Bad coincidence. The proposal is to make irc.gnome.org be an DNS A record and we will continue to honor irc.gimpnet.org as a CNAME for one year in which case we will then remove it altogether. Other than the name of the server being changed and possibly any associated certs I do not forsee any other impact. Folks will have to change the name of the server they connect to, software like XChat will need to update their config files of default IRC servers to reflect the change. I think we can promote irc.gnome.org, but I do not think it is our call to remove any domain or subdomain associated with GIMP project. Did you ask to GIMP folks what do they think? Anyway, if you make the change, you should change irc.ca.gimp.org, irc.us.gimp.org and irc.au.gimp.org as well. Also, the change would be meaningless if the network name and the welcome message does not change. At the end of the day, in XChat you choose the network you want to join, not the domain name. That is the visible part most of the days. -- Germán Poo-Caamaño http://calcifer.org/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:02 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: We are looking into changing our irc server name from irc.gimpnet.org to irc.gnome.org and looking for feedback. I think it's a good idea and support it. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:53 -0700, Germán Póo-Caamaño wrote: Although, GIMP is an acronym I was not aware that connotation of gimp (as a non-English speaker I am not aware of many words either). It's offensive enough that I can't easily talk about it in a work context, which is unfortunate as I'm involved in digital publishing standards. Cross-culture work is often difficult. With due respect, I think it is a coincidence. Bad coincidence. Yes, GIMP was named after a character in a movie, by people whose first language was not English and who didn't know it was pejorative. [...] I think we can promote irc.gnome.org, but I do not think it is our call to remove any domain or subdomain associated with GIMP project. Did you ask to GIMP folks what do they think? It's up to the GNOME project to decide if a name is acceptable as part of GNOME. A term might sound perfectly acceptable in one environment and not another (terms like black and coloured, oriental and asian, latino and spic come to my mind as examples). Sometimes context makes it OK, and for example I can talk about the GIMP image editor in technical committee work, but I wouldn't wear a GIMP tee-shirt (even though I have one) at a business event where an InkscapeL tee-shirt might be just fine :-) But an international project doesn't have that option as easily, because it's seen everywhere. Anyway, if you make the change, you should change irc.ca.gimp.org, irc.us.gimp.org and irc.au.gimp.org as well. Yes. And, as you note, the change would take longer to happen in things like xchat connect menus. But it won't happen if it's not started :) Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/08/2013 01:53 PM, Germán Póo-Caamaño wrote: On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:02 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: We are looking into changing our irc server name from irc.gimpnet.org to irc.gnome.org and looking for feedback. I think you mean irc.gimp.org or irc.gimp.net. Essentially, it's become problematic to have 'gimp' in the name of our server. To many, 'gimp' is an offensive term an given our dedication to a11y it seems counter-intuitive to have this name in our infrastructure. 100% agreed; gimp is a slur and it's embarrassing to mention it when helping new people get into GNOME. The proposal is to make irc.gnome.org be an DNS A record and we will continue to honor irc.gimpnet.org as a CNAME for one year in which case we will then remove it altogether. Other than the name of the server being changed and possibly any associated certs I do not forsee any other impact. Folks will have to change the name of the server they connect to, software like XChat will need to update their config files of default IRC servers to reflect the change. I think we can promote irc.gnome.org, but I do not think it is our call to remove any domain or subdomain associated with GIMP project. Did you ask to GIMP folks what do they think? Anyway, if you make the change, you should change irc.ca.gimp.org, irc.us.gimp.org and irc.au.gimp.org as well. Also, the change would be meaningless if the network name and the welcome message does not change. At the end of the day, in XChat you choose the network you want to join, not the domain name. That is the visible part most of the days. Yes, we should also change the network name and welcome message. - -- Sumana Harihareswara http://www.harihareswara.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJRirzqAAoJECR5sh+1fa+csrIP/0nQcmTGt0orNc3kWJ7Dp24g EB48sN7RogmIGD8IJbWSfA4G9k9ICLIqCFn+mqhfdRzUXPg2r5wiYcsbC8LTpnqA qw/Nrks4B6MGlbml0BoVF17rkOUuS61OBm6JuES6DSyCySzIcEUCbZ1nCzIaKApk wiL2vsGoQUtKWIWdN7zoLiq1LUL0KLsg/F7bOrZs3UfcHm7I1c43QZpgPXtt90UH eNfh/CHqsfJB3G50/73OSLOs3G+gwmhYsi0pJBQx0hlkakoolxK2LMDO4uvlrCxc 3te9uSbPCDrtVXhwAn/WVM/osbhuW9TUL+yWzU4oEkXzRO9lq03Auvi7NoGDJ7bX tsV9Ht2g/XJUkmpRX8e5X5NijL4ow4jA13Pez+U4MJFScxrl9YoM1zC1nuUUrSpi 3PZsD0pYEItNzFznQ6RKSLs5i3p539QODFJ2C86HjAYeB0V2jMdQCAbUrrqLwvxY vFLsq7PR/fJbivDXcNNLpL9MlMec7Y9tnwbWMCjP7PsJt1kP3SWmewL1Kll7ihD0 btHivR8MtFeacGYitJZN7Kh0Oo3WNPD24xaK4hbZ1xTsqXteFuCxfHo+RGb4RiXh sWo9GWXY9pTE1xAwok6m21zJ3VY1QzN6kSB1FX0vrn1uc2Q0f4DQrRv+QMiCMxOs VQ7ZgEG0UWLlM3FknH33 =qy9F -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
Re: Proposal: DNS change irc.gnome.org becomes A record and irc.gimpnet.org starts getting phased out.
On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Sumana Harihareswara suma...@panix.comwrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/08/2013 01:53 PM, Germán Póo-Caamaño wrote: On Wed, 2013-05-08 at 10:02 -0700, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote: We are looking into changing our irc server name from irc.gimpnet.org to irc.gnome.org and looking for feedback. I think you mean irc.gimp.org or irc.gimp.net. Essentially, it's become problematic to have 'gimp' in the name of our server. To many, 'gimp' is an offensive term an given our dedication to a11y it seems counter-intuitive to have this name in our infrastructure. 100% agreed; gimp is a slur and it's embarrassing to mention it when helping new people get into GNOME. I agree. It's a slur, and we'd be better off with a different name. Meg Ford The proposal is to make irc.gnome.org be an DNS A record and we will continue to honor irc.gimpnet.org as a CNAME for one year in which case we will then remove it altogether. Other than the name of the server being changed and possibly any associated certs I do not forsee any other impact. Folks will have to change the name of the server they connect to, software like XChat will need to update their config files of default IRC servers to reflect the change. I think we can promote irc.gnome.org, but I do not think it is our call to remove any domain or subdomain associated with GIMP project. Did you ask to GIMP folks what do they think? Anyway, if you make the change, you should change irc.ca.gimp.org, irc.us.gimp.org and irc.au.gimp.org as well. Also, the change would be meaningless if the network name and the welcome message does not change. At the end of the day, in XChat you choose the network you want to join, not the domain name. That is the visible part most of the days. Yes, we should also change the network name and welcome message. - -- Sumana Harihareswara http://www.harihareswara.net/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJRirzqAAoJECR5sh+1fa+csrIP/0nQcmTGt0orNc3kWJ7Dp24g EB48sN7RogmIGD8IJbWSfA4G9k9ICLIqCFn+mqhfdRzUXPg2r5wiYcsbC8LTpnqA qw/Nrks4B6MGlbml0BoVF17rkOUuS61OBm6JuES6DSyCySzIcEUCbZ1nCzIaKApk wiL2vsGoQUtKWIWdN7zoLiq1LUL0KLsg/F7bOrZs3UfcHm7I1c43QZpgPXtt90UH eNfh/CHqsfJB3G50/73OSLOs3G+gwmhYsi0pJBQx0hlkakoolxK2LMDO4uvlrCxc 3te9uSbPCDrtVXhwAn/WVM/osbhuW9TUL+yWzU4oEkXzRO9lq03Auvi7NoGDJ7bX tsV9Ht2g/XJUkmpRX8e5X5NijL4ow4jA13Pez+U4MJFScxrl9YoM1zC1nuUUrSpi 3PZsD0pYEItNzFznQ6RKSLs5i3p539QODFJ2C86HjAYeB0V2jMdQCAbUrrqLwvxY vFLsq7PR/fJbivDXcNNLpL9MlMec7Y9tnwbWMCjP7PsJt1kP3SWmewL1Kll7ihD0 btHivR8MtFeacGYitJZN7Kh0Oo3WNPD24xaK4hbZ1xTsqXteFuCxfHo+RGb4RiXh sWo9GWXY9pTE1xAwok6m21zJ3VY1QzN6kSB1FX0vrn1uc2Q0f4DQrRv+QMiCMxOs VQ7ZgEG0UWLlM3FknH33 =qy9F -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-list@gnome.org https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list
