Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal  schrieb am
Mo., 16. Okt. 2023, 15:14:

>
> > That's absurd, there are many features in modes objfpc and macpas
> > that don't compile with Delphi.
> >
> >
> > That doesn't make it any less true.
> >
> > Also we won't add it anyway, so... 路‍♀️
>
> Apperently, a sensible discussion, based on logical arguments, instead of
> dogma, is impossible.
>

To quote our FAQ at https://www.freepascal.org/faq.html with the entry
"There is a new language extension that would be really useful. Will you
include it?" at point 2:

"The extension must have real value. Anything that is only a shorter
notation does not apply, unless it is out of compatibility with an existing
Pascal/Delphi codebase. Practically it means it must make something
possible that cannot be done otherwise or be a compatibility item"

Your suggestion fails that as it is merely syntactic sugar for something
you can accomplish using existing mechanisms even if it might be more
involved.

Regards,
Sven

>
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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal]

On Mon, 16 Oct 2023, Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal wrote:




That's absurd, there are many features in modes objfpc and macpas
that don't compile with Delphi.


That doesn't make it any less true. 


Also we won't add it anyway, so... 路‍♀️


Apperently, a sensible discussion, based on logical arguments, instead of 
dogma, is impossible.


This has nothing to do with dogma.

You ask to change the language. A considerable change by any standards,
requiring persuasive arguments, and your arguments for this change are simply 
not persuading enough.


Changing the language so you can get your list of methods is an ad-hoc
solution to a (from our point of view) non-problem.

There are (or will be) other solutions to your particular problem, 
making such a change simply unnecessary.


We can argue about the manner in which Sven closed the discussion, 
but that's a matter of style, not dogma.


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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal]

That's absurd, there are many features in modes objfpc and macpas
that don't compile with Delphi.


That doesn't make it any less true. 


Also we won't add it anyway, so... 路‍♀️


Apperently, a sensible discussion, based on logical arguments, instead of 
dogma, is impossible.

Adriaan van Os

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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal  schrieb am
So., 15. Okt. 2023, 08:54:

> Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:
> > There will be no new visibility specifiers for something like this.
> >
> > And yes, it affects compatibility, as that means that code using that
> > feature couldn't be compiled with Delphi and especially for library
> > developers that might be an important point.
>
> That's absurd, there are many features in modes objfpc and macpas that
> don't compile with Delphi.
>

That doesn't make it any less true.

Also we won't add it anyway, so... 路‍♀️

Regards,
Sven

>
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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal]

Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:
There will be no new visibility specifiers for something like this. 

And yes, it affects compatibility, as that means that code using that 
feature couldn't be compiled with Delphi and especially for library 
developers that might be an important point. 


That's absurd, there are many features in modes objfpc and macpas that don't 
compile with Delphi.

Regards,

Adriaan van Os

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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal  schrieb am
Fr., 13. Okt. 2023, 11:02:

> Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal wrote:
> >
> >> Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal wrote:
> >>
> >>> $M controls the inclusion of RTTI, i.e. it allows or disallows the
> >>> use of the published section.
> >>> No more, no less.
> >>
> >> I don't see any use in allowing or disallowing something. And with the
> >> current design, it is, as I said, impossible, without macros, to
> >> compile the same code with {$M+} and {$M-}.
> >
> > While I agree with your statement about allowing/disallowing use of
> > 'published' based on a directive, we inherited this from Delphi and it
> > is a very basic part of the language & RTL, so changing it is simply not
> > an option.
>
> Well, as I said, adding a new visibility specifier, e.g. "visible",
> meaning "public" in {$M-} state
> and "published" in {$M=}", does in no way degrade compatibility with
> Delphi code. One could reserve
> the new visibility specifier for modes objfpc and macpas.
>

There will be no new visibility specifiers for something like this.

And yes, it affects compatibility, as that means that code using that
feature couldn't be compiled with Delphi and especially for library
developers that might be an important point.

Regards,
Sven

>
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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal]

Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal wrote:



On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal wrote:


Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal wrote:

$M controls the inclusion of RTTI, i.e. it allows or disallows the 
use of the published section.

No more, no less.


I don't see any use in allowing or disallowing something. And with the 
current design, it is, as I said, impossible, without macros, to 
compile the same code with {$M+} and {$M-}.


While I agree with your statement about allowing/disallowing use of
'published' based on a directive, we inherited this from Delphi and it 
is a very basic part of the language & RTL, so changing it is simply not 
an option.


Well, as I said, adding a new visibility specifier, e.g. "visible", meaning "public" in {$M-} state 
and "published" in {$M=}", does in no way degrade compatibility with Delphi code. One could reserve 
the new visibility specifier for modes objfpc and macpas.


Regards,

Adriaan van Os
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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal]

Martin Frb via fpc-pascal wrote:

On 11/10/2023 16:46, Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal wrote:
I don't see any use in allowing or disallowing something. And with the 
current design, it is, as I said, impossible, without macros, to 
compile the same code with {$M+} and {$M-}.


Use $IfOpt instead of macros?

{$IfOpt M+} published {$Else} public {$EndIf}


I have a generic include file that has

{$ifc not defined HaveTypeInfo}
{$M-}
{$definec visible public}
{$elsec}
{$ifc HaveTypeInfo}
{$M+}
{$definec visible published}
{$elsec}
{$M-}
{$definec visible public}
{$endc}
{$endc}

and now I can use "visible" as a new visibility specifier, which is more elegant and easy-to-read 
(and less typing) than polluting the code with lots of


{$IfOpt M+} published {$Else} public {$EndIf}

Regards,

Adriaan van Os

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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Martin Frb via fpc-pascal]

On 11/10/2023 16:46, Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal wrote:
I don't see any use in allowing or disallowing something. And with the 
current design, it is, as I said, impossible, without macros, to 
compile the same code with {$M+} and {$M-}.


Use $IfOpt instead of macros?

{$IfOpt M+} published {$Else} public {$EndIf}
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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal wrote:


Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal wrote:

$M controls the inclusion of RTTI, i.e. it allows or disallows the use of 
the published section.

No more, no less.


I don't see any use in allowing or disallowing something. And with the 
current design, it is, as I said, impossible, without macros, to compile the 
same code with {$M+} and {$M-}.


While I agree with your statement about allowing/disallowing use of
'published' based on a directive, we inherited this from Delphi 
and it is a very basic part of the language & RTL, so changing it 
is simply not an option.


The extended RTTI is meant to remedy this (also in Delphi), 
but IMO it introduces its own problems (you'll love the amount 
of compiler directives it needs ;)).


I'm surprised to hear about your failure to get fcl-passrc to work, 
since it is used to create the docs based on the fpc sources. 
Additionally it forms the basis of pas2js, which fully supports all FPC constructs.


That said, I realize the (correct) use of fcl-passrc may be a bit hermetic...

Michael.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal]

Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal wrote:

$M controls the inclusion of RTTI, i.e. it allows or disallows the use 
of the published section.

No more, no less.


I don't see any use in allowing or disallowing something. And with the current design, it is, as I 
said, impossible, without macros, to compile the same code with {$M+} and {$M-}.




It has no impact on the other visibilities whatsoever. And that will not 
change, if only for Delphi compatibility.


Adding a visibility specifier "visible" meaning "published" with {$M+} and "public" with {$M-} 
doesn't degrade Delphi compatibility. Anyway, I did that now for my source code with macros, but 
it's clumsy.




If this is not acceptable, then you will need to wait for the extended 
RTTI or use fcl-passrc to solve your need.


I tried fcl-passrc but it didn't produce anything but crashes. I much welcome 
the extended RTTI.

Keep up the good work.

Regards,

Adriaan van Os

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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2023, Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal wrote:


Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:

Ah, yes, only classes and interfaces can be used for published fields. For 
properties anything is allowed. 


However, what makes the whole thing unuseable is that with {$M-} the compiler 
doesn't accept "published". So, without using macros, the same source code 
can not be compiled with both {$M+} and {$M-}. That is really clumsy. With 
{$M-} "published" (or some other visibility specifier) should be equal to 
"public".


Of course not.

$M controls the inclusion of RTTI, i.e. it allows or disallows the use of the 
published section.
No more, no less.

It has no impact on the other visibilities whatsoever. 
And that will not change, if only for Delphi compatibility.


If this is not acceptable, then you will need to wait for the extended RTTI or use fcl-passrc 
to solve your need.


Michael.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal]

Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:

Ah, yes, only classes and interfaces can be used for published fields. 
For properties anything is allowed. 


However, what makes the whole thing unuseable is that with {$M-} the compiler doesn't accept 
"published". So, without using macros, the same source code can not be compiled with both {$M+} and 
{$M-}. That is really clumsy. With {$M-} "published" (or some other visibility specifier) should be 
equal to "public".


Regards,

Adriaan van Os

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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal  schrieb am
Mi., 11. Okt. 2023, 06:25:

> Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:
> > Am 10.10.2023 um 11:18 schrieb Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> - In the released compiler, if you remove all visibility specifiers,
> >>> you can
> >>>   get a list by specifying {$M+} on your base object and then list all
> >>>   published methods using the RTTI.
> >>
> >> My understanding is that I have to explicitely specify public for
> >> class fields, otherwise the compiler will issue an error.
> >
> > What exactly do you mean here? Do you have an example?
>
> {$mode macpas}
> {$M+}
> program testrtti;
> type
>T = object( TObject)
>  i: integer;
>  procedure A;
>end;
> procedure T.A;
>begin end;
> begin
> end.
>
> Free Pascal Compiler version 3.0.4 [2018/09/30] for x86_64
> Copyright (c) 1993-2017 by Florian Klaempfl and others
> Target OS: Darwin for x86_64
> Compiling testrtti.pas
> testrtti.pas(6,5) Error: Symbol cannot be published, can be only a class
> testrtti.pas(13) Fatal: There were 1 errors compiling module, stopping
>

Ah, yes, only classes and interfaces can be used for published fields. For
properties anything is allowed.

Regards,
Sven

>
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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal]

Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:

Am 10.10.2023 um 11:18 schrieb Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal:




- In the released compiler, if you remove all visibility specifiers, 
you can

  get a list by specifying {$M+} on your base object and then list all
  published methods using the RTTI.


My understanding is that I have to explicitely specify public for 
class fields, otherwise the compiler will issue an error.


What exactly do you mean here? Do you have an example?


{$mode macpas}
{$M+}
program testrtti;
type
  T = object( TObject)
i: integer;
procedure A;
  end;
procedure T.A;
  begin end;
begin
end.

Free Pascal Compiler version 3.0.4 [2018/09/30] for x86_64
Copyright (c) 1993-2017 by Florian Klaempfl and others
Target OS: Darwin for x86_64
Compiling testrtti.pas
testrtti.pas(6,5) Error: Symbol cannot be published, can be only a class
testrtti.pas(13) Fatal: There were 1 errors compiling module, stopping

Regards,

Adriaan van Os

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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Am 10.10.2023 um 11:18 schrieb Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal:




- In the released compiler, if you remove all visibility specifiers, 
you can

  get a list by specifying {$M+} on your base object and then list all
  published methods using the RTTI.


My understanding is that I have to explicitely specify public for 
class fields, otherwise the compiler will issue an error.


What exactly do you mean here? Do you have an example?

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Am 10.10.2023 um 11:01 schrieb Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal:

Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:

No. Only those in the published section are part of the vMethodTable. 
And when compiled with $M+ the default visibility is changed from 
public to published. 


Also, I can get a list of the interfaces inherited from by a class, by 
looking at the vIntfTable of the VMT of the class. But is there also a 
way to get the method names from a CORBA interface ?


CORBA or raw interfaces don't have RTTI generation enabled. And even 
then the (COM) interfaces also need to have been parsed with $M enabled.


Regards,
Sven
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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Am 10.10.2023 um 02:04 schrieb Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal:

Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:

No. Only those in the published section are part of the vMethodTable. 
And when compiled with $M+ the default visibility is changed from 
public to published. 


OK, but that means that by explicitely specifying 
public/private/protected for fields and published for methods, a 
method list can be generated when compiling with {$M+}.


Only for the class that is parsed while $M is enabled and all that 
inherit from that class. It does not affect any parent classes that 
don't have $M enabled.


Regards,
Sven
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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal]

Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal wrote:



On Oct 10, 2023, at 4:18 PM, Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal 
 wrote:

Interesting ! If I am correct, the docs referred to at 
 say

; visibility-clause:
; METHODS|PROPERTIES|FIELDS (visibility-expression)

Does that mean that the "extended RTTI" branch supports RTTI for fields ?


Yes, it should be compatible with Delphi so all fields with the specified 
visibility will be available at runtime.


Great !

Regards,

Adriaan van Os

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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Hairy Pixels via fpc-pascal]

> On Oct 10, 2023, at 4:18 PM, Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal 
>  wrote:
> 
> Interesting ! If I am correct, the docs referred to at 
>  say
> 
> ; visibility-clause:
> ; METHODS|PROPERTIES|FIELDS (visibility-expression)
> 
> Does that mean that the "extended RTTI" branch supports RTTI for fields ?

Yes, it should be compatible with Delphi so all fields with the specified 
visibility will be available at runtime.

Regards,
Ryan Joseph

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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal]

Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal wrote:



On Mon, 9 Oct 2023, Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal wrote:

Is there a trick to make (in mode macpas) all class methods 
implicitely virtual ? I mean, without adding the virtual keyword to 
all of them ? The reason is that I want to create a tree view of the 
class hierarchy with all the method names (not just those that are 
normally in the VMT because they are overridden).


Any other ideas ?


If you need this tree at run-time:

- The "extended RTTI" branch of fpc allows you to list all methods,
  regardless of their visibility


Interesting ! If I am correct, the docs referred to at 
 say


; visibility-clause:
; METHODS|PROPERTIES|FIELDS (visibility-expression)

Does that mean that the "extended RTTI" branch supports RTTI for fields ?



- In the released compiler, if you remove all visibility specifiers, you 
can

  get a list by specifying {$M+} on your base object and then list all
  published methods using the RTTI.


My understanding is that I have to explicitely specify public for class fields, otherwise the 
compiler will issue an error.




If you simply need this tree:

- You can simply use fcl-passrc to analyse your source tree and create 
the complete

  list. No changes to code needed. I have several programs that do this.


Will try that out, thanks.

Regards,

Adriaan van Os

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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal]

Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:

No. Only those in the published section are part of the vMethodTable. 
And when compiled with $M+ the default visibility is changed from public 
to published. 


Also, I can get a list of the interfaces inherited from by a class, by looking at the vIntfTable of 
the VMT of the class. But is there also a way to get the method names from a CORBA interface ?


Regards,

Adriaan van Os

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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Michael Van Canneyt via fpc-pascal]

On Mon, 9 Oct 2023, Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal wrote:

Is there a trick to make (in mode macpas) all class methods implicitely 
virtual ? I mean, without adding the virtual keyword to all of them ? The 
reason is that I want to create a tree view of the class hierarchy with all 
the method names (not just those that are normally in the VMT because they 
are overridden).


Any other ideas ?


If you need this tree at run-time:

- The "extended RTTI" branch of fpc allows you to list all methods,
  regardless of their visibility

- In the released compiler, if you remove all visibility specifiers, you can
  get a list by specifying {$M+} on your base object and then list all
  published methods using the RTTI.

If you simply need this tree:

- You can simply use fcl-passrc to analyse your source tree and create the 
complete
  list. No changes to code needed. I have several programs that do this.

Michael.
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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal]

Sven Barth via fpc-pascal wrote:

No. Only those in the published section are part of the vMethodTable. 
And when compiled with $M+ the default visibility is changed from public 
to published. 


OK, but that means that by explicitely specifying public/private/protected for fields and published 
for methods, a method list can be generated when compiling with {$M+}.


Regards,

Adriaan van Os

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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal  schrieb am
Mo., 9. Okt. 2023, 15:44:

> > Is there a trick to make (in mode macpas) all class methods implicitely
> virtual ? I mean, without
> > adding the virtual keyword to all of them ? The reason is that I want to
> create a tree view of the
> > class hierarchy with all the method names (not just those that are
> normally in the VMT because they
> > are overridden).
>
> Hm, looking somewhat further, it seems that the vMethodTable of the class
> VMT does list all
> methods, not just the virtual methods, provided the code was compiled with
> type info {$M+}
>
> is that correct ?
>

No. Only those in the published section are part of the vMethodTable. And
when compiled with $M+ the default visibility is changed from public to
published.

Regards,
Sven

>
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Re: [fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Sven Barth via fpc-pascal]

Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal  schrieb am
Mo., 9. Okt. 2023, 14:29:

> Is there a trick to make (in mode macpas) all class methods implicitely
> virtual ? I mean, without
> adding the virtual keyword to all of them ? The reason is that I want to
> create a tree view of the
> class hierarchy with all the method names (not just those that are
> normally in the VMT because they
> are overridden).
>

No, there is no such way.

Regards,
Sven

>
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[fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal]

Is there a trick to make (in mode macpas) all class methods implicitely virtual ? I mean, without 
adding the virtual keyword to all of them ? The reason is that I want to create a tree view of the 
class hierarchy with all the method names (not just those that are normally in the VMT because they 
are overridden).


Hm, looking somewhat further, it seems that the vMethodTable of the class VMT does list all 
methods, not just the virtual methods, provided the code was compiled with type info {$M+}


is that correct ?

Regards,

Adriaan van Os

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[fpc-pascal] All methods vitrual ?

[Adriaan van Os via fpc-pascal]

Is there a trick to make (in mode macpas) all class methods implicitely virtual ? I mean, without 
adding the virtual keyword to all of them ? The reason is that I want to create a tree view of the 
class hierarchy with all the method names (not just those that are normally in the VMT because they 
are overridden).


Any other ideas ?

Regards,

Adriaan van Os
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