Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Antony Gordon]

Things would be so much simpler if FreeDOS emulated the Microsoft and IBM
(and Caldera, Digital Research) counterparts and installed the base
operating system.

All these extra drivers for this, a compiler for that can just be on the CD
and can be installed later.

Jerome, if you could find a copy of DOS 5 or later just to see how the
install goes, actually I think a lot of you all need to revisit what the
default install of DOS gives you.

It would make things a lot more compatible across the myriad of platforms
(both virtual and real hardware).

Anyone using DOS at this point doesn't need their hand held with regard to
configuration.

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, 7:31 PM Ralf Quint  wrote:

> On 1/23/2016 3:45 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
> > Hi again, quick reply,
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> >> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint 
> wrote:
> >>> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
> >>> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite
> some
> >>> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS
> "distro"...
> >> IMO, it was too buggy to use for much.
> >
> Well, fix it. It's Open Source
>
> Ralf
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Antony Gordon]

Hi,

Exactly. If you want networking, install it afterwards. The same for sound,
the myriad of development choices and memory managers. Despite wanting to
emulate DOS, it seems FreeDOS more closely emulates a Linux distribution
from the verbose initial boot to the "package" selection.

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016, 6:33 AM Mateusz Viste  wrote:

> On 26/01/2016 12:10, Antony Gordon wrote:
> > Things would be so much simpler if FreeDOS emulated the Microsoft and
> > IBM (and Caldera, Digital Research) counterparts and installed the base
> > operating system.
>
> I second that. But it would seem we are isolated in this opinion, since
> I see all the time people talking about multiple-choice packages,
> "advanced" modes, "FULL 400M+ install", etc...
>
> What I'd love, as a user, is to be able to put the FreeDOS install CD
> (or floppy) into my computer, select a single choice "Yes, I want to
> install FreeDOS even though it means all existing data will be wiped
> out", and get a FreeDOS shell seconds later. A shell that mimicks what
> MS-DOS 6.x provided. And only THEN, if I wish/need, I'd install
> additional stuff using FDNPKG and/or FDINST.
>
> Mateusz
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, 7:31 PM Ralf Quint  > > wrote:
> >
> > On 1/23/2016 3:45 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
> >  > Hi again, quick reply,
> >  >
> >  > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Rugxulo  > > wrote:
> >  >> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint
> > > wrote:
> >  >>> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
> >  >>> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS,
> > despite some
> >  >>> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS
> > "distro"...
> >  >> IMO, it was too buggy to use for much.
> >  >
> > Well, fix it. It's Open Source
> >
> > Ralf
> >
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Tom Ehlert]

> On 26/01/2016 12:10, Antony Gordon wrote:
>> Things would be so much simpler if FreeDOS emulated the Microsoft and
>> IBM (and Caldera, Digital Research) counterparts and installed the base
>> operating system.

> I second that. But it would seem we are isolated in this opinion, since
> I see all the time people talking about multiple-choice packages, 
> "advanced" modes, "FULL 400M+ install", etc...

you are not alone. we are at least 3.

> ...
> And only THEN, if I wish/need, I'd install
> additional stuff using FDNPKG and/or FDINST.

Tom



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Re: [Freedos-devel] FreeDOS 1.2

[Thomas Mueller]

Excerpts from Eric Auer:

> if Mateusz' repository has "500 MB of packages", then that
> would make a good choice for ALL as far as I am concerned:

> It easily fits on a CD and you get plenty of DOS stuff :-)

> Also, it should fit on most USB sticks as well. Maybe you
> could make a list of the LARGEST packages in the repository
> and I can tell you which seem okay to omit, if you want to
> have the distro small enough to fit even on 512 MB sticks.

> That could be a very interesting discussion for my taste :-)

Where do you find USB sticks < 4 GB nowadays?  Smallest I have is 1 GB.

But I think USB sticks started at 128 MB?

I think CDs usually have 700 MB capacity nowadays, so we don't want too much of 
that space to go to waste.

It would not be necessary to include everything on the CD in the base 
installation.

> I was wondering if we should also provide a 16 bit version. But
> remember: It is almost impossible to boot 16 bit hardware from
> CD or from USB stick, so users with such hardware will probably
> first install a BASE floppy distro and then use FDNPKG to add
> packages manually by individual choice anyway. So it might be
> better to include ONLY the 32 bit version of NASM 2.11.08 :-)

I think most 16-bit computers had no CD(-ROM) drive?   The days when 
motherboards supported 16-bit CPUs predate USB, as far as I know.

So only a small minority of users would use 16-bit NASM.

I wonder how a 16-bit computer would exchange data with a modern computer.  
Maybe Ethernet with FTP or NFS?

FreeBSD, NetBSD and most (?) Linux distributions include software for 
rebuilding the system, so including such software, such as Open Watcom is quite 
appropriate.

Networking and USB are much more critical than in the heyday of (MS-, PC-, 
DR-)DOS, and FreeDOS 1.2 needs to be reasonably usable for today's computers.

So a FreeDOS base system needs to be suitable to current needs rather than the 
1990s.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Louis Santillan]

Is there an ISO yet of FDI/FD 1.2preX?  Forgot that M6805 has a broken BIOS
wrt to USB boot.

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 8:07 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:
> >  Hello Eric and all,
> >
> > A little more follow up on the USB stick test.
> >
> > The same user who was testing, per my suggestion ran it in advanced mode
> to override
> > the automatic D: drive as the install target. He said the install ran
> flawlessly when he
> > set it to C:\FDOS.
> >
> > He did say that he had an issue booting it. And basically, it seems to
> be issues with the
> > FDCONFIG paths. So, I will have to see if I can get FreeDOS to boot and
> load drivers from
> > an unknown drive letter. FDI doesn't care what drive it is running on.
> The wrong target
> > issue was an assumption I made and will fix.
>
> Just remove all mentions of absolute drive letters (in FDCONFIG.SYS)
> entirely. It should still work. "DEVICE=\FDOS\HIMEMX.EXE" That's what
> I did with my MetaDOS floppy image, and it works (once extracted) atop
> (RUFUS-made) USB as "C:" or floppy as "A:".
>
> > It appears that if I get the booting from G or L or X  to work, a
> USB stick installer may be viable.
>
> Not all USB sticks are bootable, but most are. Plus, old machines
> (like my P4) need help (e.g. PLoP boot manager first, which makes it
> read-only, which isn't ideal but far better than nothing). We always
> have third-party things like RUFUS or UNetBootIn, too.
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:
>  Hello Eric and all,
>
> A little more follow up on the USB stick test.
>
> The same user who was testing, per my suggestion ran it in advanced mode to 
> override
> the automatic D: drive as the install target. He said the install ran 
> flawlessly when he
> set it to C:\FDOS.
>
> He did say that he had an issue booting it. And basically, it seems to be 
> issues with the
> FDCONFIG paths. So, I will have to see if I can get FreeDOS to boot and load 
> drivers from
> an unknown drive letter. FDI doesn't care what drive it is running on. The 
> wrong target
> issue was an assumption I made and will fix.

Just remove all mentions of absolute drive letters (in FDCONFIG.SYS)
entirely. It should still work. "DEVICE=\FDOS\HIMEMX.EXE" That's what
I did with my MetaDOS floppy image, and it works (once extracted) atop
(RUFUS-made) USB as "C:" or floppy as "A:".

> It appears that if I get the booting from G or L or X  to work, a USB 
> stick installer may be viable.

Not all USB sticks are bootable, but most are. Plus, old machines
(like my P4) need help (e.g. PLoP boot manager first, which makes it
read-only, which isn't ideal but far better than nothing). We always
have third-party things like RUFUS or UNetBootIn, too.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Steve Nickolas]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016, Rugxulo wrote:

> The EXE2BIN in "BASE" is literally from OpenWatcom 1.5. And I have no
> idea what you would do with it (or a linker) without some kind of
> compiler. So I think that's a bad idea, even if MS used to do it. I've
> said this before, but apparently nobody agrees with me.

exe2bin and link were removed, not even merely relegated to supplemental, 
from later versions of DOS (3.30 on).  I think that's fine; leave it to 
the compiler to provide those tools.

-uso.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI, updated

[Louis Santillan]

I'd like to make a minor suggestion here.

When packaging up USB image to a zip file, leave off directory path to the
image.

Thanks,


On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
wrote:

> I forgot something in the old (10 minute ago release).
> So, i just put up another FDI update.
>
> http://up.lod.bz/FDI/latest
>
> Also, if someone wants to see if the USB stick image thingy works.
> (I have no way to boot it at present)
>
> http://up.lod.bz/FDI-USB.zip
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI, updated

[Jerome Shidel]

Ah, sorry. Didn't realize it was in there. Will do.

Sent from my iPhone, ignore bad sentence structures, grammatical errors and 
incorrect spell-corrected words.

> On Jan 26, 2016, at 3:53 AM, Louis Santillan  wrote:
> 
> I'd like to make a minor suggestion here.
> 
> When packaging up USB image to a zip file, leave off directory path to the 
> image.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 12:47 PM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr.  
>> wrote:
>> I forgot something in the old (10 minute ago release).
>> So, i just put up another FDI update.
>> 
>> http://up.lod.bz/FDI/latest
>> 
>> Also, if someone wants to see if the USB stick image thingy works.
>> (I have no way to boot it at present)
>> 
>> http://up.lod.bz/FDI-USB.zip
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

Personally, I would like BASE to be more or less a minimum viable OS install 
and ALL to be a most likely 
wanted install. 

When I say minimum viable I mean: kernel, freecom, xcopy, deltree, move and a 
few other more or less
absolutes. 

However, by my understanding of what Jim wants. BASE is supposed to be 
equivalent to to what 
was provided with MS-DOS. 

For us dev types, it is very easy to make a custom package set for FDI or to 
just
roll your own installer. 

> On Jan 26, 2016, at 6:46 AM, Antony Gordon  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Exactly. If you want networking, install it afterwards. The same for sound, 
> the myriad of development choices and memory managers. Despite wanting to 
> emulate DOS, it seems FreeDOS more closely emulates a Linux distribution from 
> the verbose initial boot to the "package" selection.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016, 6:33 AM Mateusz Viste  wrote:
> On 26/01/2016 12:10, Antony Gordon wrote:
> > Things would be so much simpler if FreeDOS emulated the Microsoft and
> > IBM (and Caldera, Digital Research) counterparts and installed the base
> > operating system.
> 
> I second that. But it would seem we are isolated in this opinion, since
> I see all the time people talking about multiple-choice packages,
> "advanced" modes, "FULL 400M+ install", etc...
> 
> What I'd love, as a user, is to be able to put the FreeDOS install CD
> (or floppy) into my computer, select a single choice "Yes, I want to
> install FreeDOS even though it means all existing data will be wiped
> out", and get a FreeDOS shell seconds later. A shell that mimicks what
> MS-DOS 6.x provided. And only THEN, if I wish/need, I'd install
> additional stuff using FDNPKG and/or FDINST.
> 
> Mateusz
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, 7:31 PM Ralf Quint  > > wrote:
> >
> > On 1/23/2016 3:45 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
> >  > Hi again, quick reply,
> >  >
> >  > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Rugxulo  > > wrote:
> >  >> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint
> > > wrote:
> >  >>> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
> >  >>> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS,
> > despite some
> >  >>> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS
> > "distro"...
> >  >> IMO, it was too buggy to use for much.
> >  >
> > Well, fix it. It's Open Source
> >
> > Ralf
> >
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jim Hall]

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 12:09 PM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
wrote:

> Personally, I would like BASE to be more or less a minimum viable OS
> install and ALL to be a most likely
> wanted install.
>
> When I say minimum viable I mean: kernel, freecom, xcopy, deltree, move
> and a few other more or less
> absolutes.
>
> However, by my understanding of what Jim wants. BASE is supposed to be
> equivalent to to what
> was provided with MS-DOS.
>
> For us dev types, it is very easy to make a custom package set for FDI or
> to just
> roll your own installer.
>



Yes, my view is that FreeDOS "Base" should provide the equivalent
functionality to MS-DOS. Anything else (Devel, Edit, Util, .. or "All" if
you group it into one set) is extra functionality that wasn't included in
the original MS-DOS.

I think the important feature is that those who want just the "MS-DOS"
behavior can install only "Base" with the correspondingly small footprint,
while people who want a more modern DOS experience can install "All."


Jim
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jim Hall]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Eric Auer  wrote:

>
> Hi Tom, Maarten, Jerome and Rugxulo,
>
> >> I emailed with Jim the other day. He is extremely busy at present.
>
> > fine. we should look for a new boss with more time to care.
>
> Not THAT, permanently, busy - Jim is busy at the MOMENT with some
> current news :-) Regarding Maarten's mail: No need for complicated
> excuses... Simply don't send patches for kernel and command.com: At
> least I am happy with your help such as translations or testing :-)
>

Yes, it seems I over-committed myself to projects at around the same time I
changed jobs. Oops. I'm busy at work, but also busy with a bunch of other
things that I thought I'd have the time to do.



>
> I think it is safe to assume that "open and license-safe" are good
> choices. Also it is safe to assume that "mimicks a MS DOS feature"
> is a good reason to be in BASE. However, I think this can be seen
> relaxed regarding drivers: If it mimicks a MS "DOS" 7 feature such
> as LFN, it is useful to people who know "DOS" as part of Windows.
>
> And if it is a driver for something that did not even exist when
> MS DOS existed, such as USB or DVD drives, it should also be BASE
> because using your hardware seems to be a basic thing for me. Of
> course I would not make camera drivers base, because MS DOS never
> shipped with video editing or chat software by default :-)
>
>
Yes, if it replicated original MS-DOS functionality, it should be in Base.
This includes programs like APPEND, ASSIGN, ATTRIB, CHKDSK, … UNDELETE,
UNFORMAT, XCOPY, … etc. We've always been very careful about extending the
"Base" list, but over time we have added one or two things that weren't in
the original MS-DOS. I prefer this list not grow too much. Extra items can
go in other sets, or just a single "Extras" software set if we don't want
to continue "Devel" and "Edit" and other sets.


Jim
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jim Hall]

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:45 AM, Tom Ehlert  wrote:

>
> > On 26/01/2016 12:10, Antony Gordon wrote:
> >> Things would be so much simpler if FreeDOS emulated the Microsoft and
> >> IBM (and Caldera, Digital Research) counterparts and installed the base
> >> operating system.
>
> > I second that. But it would seem we are isolated in this opinion, since
> > I see all the time people talking about multiple-choice packages,
> > "advanced" modes, "FULL 400M+ install", etc...
>
> you are not alone. we are at least 3.
>

Maybe at least 4 :-)



>
> > ...
> > And only THEN, if I wish/need, I'd install
> > additional stuff using FDNPKG and/or FDINST.
>
> Tom
>


I advise keeping FreeDOS simple. I worry that the proposed new installer is
becoming too complex.

At least as early as 2010
,
I wanted to simplify the FreeDOS install. The installation process should
be a minimum of prompts:


   1. Do you want to install just the "base" FreeDOS, or everything?
   2. Do you want the source code, too?


After that, the install should take care of itself.

Installing "Base; no source code" should take only a few minutes and a
"few" MB of disk space.


Jim
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jim Hall]

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:

> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
> >   Regarding BWBASIC, current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC
> was small but
> > somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.
> >
> >
> Sorry, but you are here comparing apples and oranges.
> FreeBASIC is a compiler, which doesn't run properly on FreeDOS AFAIK in
> the first place, so you would have to do cross-platform development.
> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite some
> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS "distro"...
>
> Ralf
>
>
Agreed.

A note on history: we had moved the BASIC environments out of "Base" many
years ago, and put them in "Devel." We originally only had the one BASIC
interpreter (I think always BWBASIC) but everyone wanted their own favorite
BASIC. Since we already had a few C compilers and a few assemblers in
"Devel," it made sense to move BASIC into the "Devel" set.

I'm in favor that BWBASIC should remain in FreeDOS. Maybe we could move
BWBASIC back into the "Base" set, since it replicates well the original
"BASIC interpreter" concept from MS-DOS, and put other BASIC systems into
"Devel" or "Extras."


The BASIC systems currently in "Devel" are:


   1. BASEC
   2. BWBASIC
   3. FreeBASIC
   4. SmallBASIC
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Hi,

I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and 
DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It makes no 
sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic system part. Leave 
it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)

Maarten

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: "Jim Hall" 
Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 20:49
Aan: "Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers." 

Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2





On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:

On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>   Regarding BWBASIC, current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC was 
> small but
> somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.
>
>
Sorry, but you are here comparing apples and oranges.
FreeBASIC is a compiler, which doesn't run properly on FreeDOS AFAIK in
the first place, so you would have to do cross-platform development.
BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite some
shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS "distro"...

Ralf




Agreed.


A note on history: we had moved the BASIC environments out of "Base" many years 
ago, and put them in "Devel." We originally only had the one BASIC interpreter 
(I think always BWBASIC) but everyone wanted their own favorite BASIC. Since we 
already had a few C compilers and a few assemblers in "Devel," it made sense to 
move BASIC into the "Devel" set.


I'm in favor that BWBASIC should remain in FreeDOS. Maybe we could move BWBASIC 
back into the "Base" set, since it replicates well the original "BASIC 
interpreter" concept from MS-DOS, and put other BASIC systems into "Devel" or 
"Extras."




The BASIC systems currently in "Devel" are:


BASEC

BWBASIC

FreeBASIC

SmallBASIC--
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Louis Santillan]

Since DOS 1.0, (IBM/ROM-)BASIC[0] & DEBUG[1] were the default programming
facilities.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_BASIC
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debug_(command)

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Maarten Vermeulen 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and
> DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It makes no
> sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic system part.
> Leave it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)
>
> Maarten
> --
> Van: Jim Hall 
> Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 20:49
> Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
> 
> Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:
>
>> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>> >   Regarding BWBASIC, current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC
>> was small but
>> > somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.
>> >
>> >
>> Sorry, but you are here comparing apples and oranges.
>> FreeBASIC is a compiler, which doesn't run properly on FreeDOS AFAIK in
>> the first place, so you would have to do cross-platform development.
>> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite some
>> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS
>> "distro"...
>>
>> Ralf
>>
>>
> Agreed.
>
> A note on history: we had moved the BASIC environments out of "Base" many
> years ago, and put them in "Devel." We originally only had the one BASIC
> interpreter (I think always BWBASIC) but everyone wanted their own favorite
> BASIC. Since we already had a few C compilers and a few assemblers in
> "Devel," it made sense to move BASIC into the "Devel" set.
>
> I'm in favor that BWBASIC should remain in FreeDOS. Maybe we could move
> BWBASIC back into the "Base" set, since it replicates well the original
> "BASIC interpreter" concept from MS-DOS, and put other BASIC systems into
> "Devel" or "Extras."
>
>
> The BASIC systems currently in "Devel" are:
>
>
>1. BASEC
>2. BWBASIC
>3. FreeBASIC
>4. SmallBASIC
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Mercury Thirteen]

+1

On 1/26/2016 2:54 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:

Hi,

I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and 
DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It 
makes no sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic 
system part. Leave it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)


Maarten


--
*This has been a Mercury Thirteen transmission.*
/"Why? Because *FreeDOS*, that's why."/
Things I endorse:
AMD
ATI
eBid.net - A great eBay replacement which doesn't habitually screw over 
its sellers! :)

FreeDOS
Samsung
Subaru - The most capable AWD ever!
Trump / Cruz 2016 - Make America great again!
I promote these things because awesomeness and excellence deserve 
recognition, not for personal gain of any kind.
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Okay but do you mean you want it back in 'base' or is this just info?

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: "Louis Santillan" 
Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 21:02
Aan: "Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers." 

Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

Since DOS 1.0, (IBM/ROM-)BASIC[0] & DEBUG[1] were the default programming 
facilities.


[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_BASIC
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debug_(command)


On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Maarten Vermeulen  wrote:

Hi,

I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and 
DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It makes no 
sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic system part. Leave 
it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)

Maarten


Van: Jim Hall
Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 20:49
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2






On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:

On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>   Regarding BWBASIC, current FreeBASIC is extremely cool while BWBASIC was 
> small but
> somewhat sketchy, I would agree to drop BWBASIC from the distro.
>
>
Sorry, but you are here comparing apples and oranges.
FreeBASIC is a compiler, which doesn't run properly on FreeDOS AFAIK in
the first place, so you would have to do cross-platform development.
BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS, despite some
shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS "distro"...

Ralf




Agreed.


A note on history: we had moved the BASIC environments out of "Base" many years 
ago, and put them in "Devel." We originally only had the one BASIC interpreter 
(I think always BWBASIC) but everyone wanted their own favorite BASIC. Since we 
already had a few C compilers and a few assemblers in "Devel," it made sense to 
move BASIC into the "Devel" set.


I'm in favor that BWBASIC should remain in FreeDOS. Maybe we could move BWBASIC 
back into the "Base" set, since it replicates well the original "BASIC 
interpreter" concept from MS-DOS, and put other BASIC systems into "Devel" or 
"Extras."




The BASIC systems currently in "Devel" are:


BASEC

BWBASIC

FreeBASIC

SmallBASIC






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[Freedos-devel] unzip problem

[Henrik Schick-Hansen]

Hello!I am having a bit trouble unzipping the DFLAT source files dfp100s.zip. I 
downloaded the file and copied it to freedos via the floppy drive (I am using 
VirtualBox).Unzip complains that several files has a crc error. I am using the 
unzip program that came with freedos 1.1 and have tried downloading it several 
times. No luck.
Best regards,Henrik   --
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Mercury Thirteen]

It's a way of saying I agree with what you said.

On 1/26/2016 3:04 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:

What's the meaning of "+1"?!


Van: Mercury Thirteen 
Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 21:03
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers. 


Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

+1

On 1/26/2016 2:54 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:

Hi,

I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and 
DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It 
makes no sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic 
system part. Leave it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)


Maarten


--
*This has been a Mercury Thirteen transmission.*
/"Why? Because *FreeDOS*, that's why."/
Things I endorse:
AMD
ATI
eBid.net - A great eBay replacement which doesn't habitually screw 
over its sellers! :)

FreeDOS
Samsung
Subaru - The most capable AWD ever!
Trump / Cruz 2016 - Make America great again!
I promote these things because awesomeness and excellence deserve 
recognition, not for personal gain of any kind.



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/"Why? Because *FreeDOS*, that's why."/
Things I endorse:
AMD
ATI
eBid.net - A great eBay replacement which doesn't habitually screw over 
its sellers! :)

FreeDOS
Samsung
Subaru - The most capable AWD ever!
Trump / Cruz 2016 - Make America great again!
I promote these things because awesomeness and excellence deserve 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Maarten Vermeulen]

Oh yes! Of course... :/

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: "Mercury Thirteen" 
Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 21:31
Aan: "Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers." 

Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

It's a way of saying I agree with what you said.


On 1/26/2016 3:04 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:

What's the meaning of "+1"?!




Van: Mercury Thirteen
Verzonden: ‎26-‎1-‎2016 21:03
Aan: Technical discussion and questions for FreeDOS developers.
Onderwerp: Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2


+1


On 1/26/2016 2:54 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:

Hi,

I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and 
DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It makes no 
sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic system part. Leave 
it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)

Maarten 


-- 
This has been a Mercury Thirteen transmission.
"Why? Because FreeDOS, that's why."
Things I endorse:
AMD
ATI
eBid.net - A great eBay replacement which doesn't habitually screw over its 
sellers! :)
FreeDOS
Samsung
Subaru - The most capable AWD ever!
Trump / Cruz 2016 - Make America great again!
I promote these things because awesomeness and excellence deserve recognition, 
not for personal gain of any kind.


 

--
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-- 
This has been a Mercury Thirteen transmission.
"Why? Because FreeDOS, that's why."
Things I endorse:
AMD
ATI
eBid.net - A great eBay replacement which doesn't habitually screw over its 
sellers! :)
FreeDOS
Samsung
Subaru - The most capable AWD ever!
Trump / Cruz 2016 - Make America great again!
I promote these things because awesomeness and excellence deserve recognition, 
not for personal gain of any kind.--
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jim Hall]

>
> On 1/26/2016 2:54 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I should leave BWBASIC right where it is. As it's for programming and
> DEVELOPING. As it's devloper stuff I would leave it in "devel". It makes no
> sense to put a devloping part from developing to the basic system part.
> Leave it with his brothers (ASM and C). :)
>
> Maarten
>
>

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 2:02 PM, Mercury Thirteen 
 wrote:

> +1
>
>


I'm also okay with leaving BWBASIC in "Devel" or equivalent. It's been
there for so long, and it does make some sense to keep "development" tools
in one place.
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jerome E. Shidel Jr.]

At present, BASE is fairly close to the 1.1 BASE. Of course, it no longer 
includes XMGR and UIDE.
this is the current ALL packages that are installed. Pull rdisk? Anything else?

https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST

Please note, that FDI’s floppy boot image needs a CD/DVD driver and it is 
currently using UDVD2.

These are the current additions that are installed when ALL is selected:

util\v8power

net\mtcp
util\4dos
util\doslfn
util\fdnpkg
util\memtest
util\bootfix
util\shsufdrv
util\cwsdpmi
archiver\zip
archiver\unzip

util\grep
util\tee
util\touch
util\which
util\pg

archiver\tar
archiver\gzip
archiver\bz2

devel\nasm
devel\fpc
devel\ow

net\wget
net\rsync
net\curl

Add or remove anything else?

Jerome





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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Antony Gordon]

Hi,

For Maarten and Mercury, look into DOS versions prior to 5.0, they included
DEBUG and (GW-)BASIC.
That would complete the DOS experience... well that and some sample BASIC
programs like GORILLA.BAS and having LINK.EXE along with EXE2BIN.

-T
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016, 4:06 PM Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
wrote:

> At present, BASE is fairly close to the 1.1 BASE. Of course, it no longer
> includes XMGR and UIDE.
> this is the current ALL packages that are installed. Pull rdisk? Anything
> else?
>
> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST
>
> Please note, that FDI’s floppy boot image needs a CD/DVD driver and it is
> currently using UDVD2.
>
> These are the current additions that are installed when ALL is selected:
>
> util\v8power
>
> net\mtcp
> util\4dos
> util\doslfn
> util\fdnpkg
> util\memtest
> util\bootfix
> util\shsufdrv
> util\cwsdpmi
> archiver\zip
> archiver\unzip
>
> util\grep
> util\tee
> util\touch
> util\which
> util\pg
>
> archiver\tar
> archiver\gzip
> archiver\bz2
>
> devel\nasm
> devel\fpc
> devel\ow
>
> net\wget
> net\rsync
> net\curl
>
> Add or remove anything else?
>
> Jerome
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Steve Nickolas]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016, Jim Hall wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 12:09 PM, Jerome E. Shidel Jr. 
> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I would like BASE to be more or less a minimum viable OS
>> install and ALL to be a most likely
>> wanted install.
>>
>> When I say minimum viable I mean: kernel, freecom, xcopy, deltree, move
>> and a few other more or less
>> absolutes.
>>
>> However, by my understanding of what Jim wants. BASE is supposed to be
>> equivalent to to what
>> was provided with MS-DOS.
>>
>> For us dev types, it is very easy to make a custom package set for FDI or
>> to just
>> roll your own installer.
>>
>
>
>
> Yes, my view is that FreeDOS "Base" should provide the equivalent
> functionality to MS-DOS. Anything else (Devel, Edit, Util, .. or "All" if
> you group it into one set) is extra functionality that wasn't included in
> the original MS-DOS.
>
> I think the important feature is that those who want just the "MS-DOS"
> behavior can install only "Base" with the correspondingly small footprint,
> while people who want a more modern DOS experience can install "All."
>
>
> Jim
>

I guess I have a sort of in the middle approach: "install something 
comparable to MS-DOS 3.3", "install something comparable to MS-DOS 6.2", 
"install everything"

-uso.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Steve Nickolas]

On Tue, 26 Jan 2016, Louis Santillan wrote:

> Since DOS 1.0, (IBM/ROM-)BASIC[0] & DEBUG[1] were the default programming
> facilities.
>
> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_BASIC
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debug_(command)

I personally consider BASIC optional.  Also, DEBUG was generally on the 
Supplemental disk up through 3.21.

-uso.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Ralf Quint]

On 1/26/2016 12:04 PM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote:

What's the meaning of "+1"?!
That is short for "I am one more person with the exact same 
opinion/point of view"...


Ralf


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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jerome, Jim et al,

In view of available disk space on normal computers, I would like to
interpret Jim's view in a broad sense: If ANY version of MS DOS had
the feature and we have something to provide the same feature, then
we should make it part of a BASE install. This includes DEBUG, EDIT,
EDLIN, BASIC, probably even LFN drivers, although LFN are part of a
MS DOS version that could only be acquired as side-effect of Windows
installs. But we have it and it is useful for many users. There are
a few things that never shipped with MS DOS but which are BASE from
my point of view: A package manager, ZIP / UNZIP and drivers for a
number of modern pieces of hardware, including USB devices and DVD.

BASIC is a bit controversial - use BWBASIC, small but limited? Or use
FreeBASIC, big but versatile? I would say one is enough for BASE but
we should provide both for the "large" install option :-) When making
a floppy distro, experience has shown that BASE nevertheless fits on
two or three disks, with minimal changes, e.g. no BASIC and no EDLIN.
So as said, I suggest a broad selection of base things to be BASE :-)

Jerome, regarding the packages which are part of the ALL choice: The
list seems suspiciously SHORT to me! We had a lot more to offer in
older FreeDOS distros when people selected "ALL". Unless things got
dropped from Mateusz' repository, I would keep including them all.

Jim wrote:

> Yes, my view is that FreeDOS "Base" should provide the equivalent
> functionality to MS-DOS. Anything else (Devel, Edit, Util, .. or "All" if
> you group it into one set) is extra functionality that wasn't included in
> the original MS-DOS.
> 
> I think the important feature is that those who want just the "MS-DOS"
> behavior can install only "Base" with the correspondingly small footprint,
> while people who want a more modern DOS experience can install "All."

Jerome wrote:

> At present, BASE is fairly close to the 1.1 BASE. Of course, it no
> longer includes XMGR and UIDE. this is the current ALL packages that
> are installed. Pull rdisk? Anything else?

It is good to exclude XMGR but Jim's 14 Jan mail spared UIDE, which I
would really prefer to keep. You can also reduce that to UDVD2 if you
want a more basic driver. Jim only wrote that we should drop the XMGR
HIMEM-like XMS / HMA driver from the distro.

> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST
> 
> Please note, that FDI’s floppy boot image needs a CD/DVD driver and
> it is currently using UDVD2.
> 
> These are the current additions that are installed when ALL is selected:
> 
> util\v8power
> 
> net\mtcp

> util\4dos

Is the license of 4DOS fine at the moment?

> util\doslfn
> util\fdnpkg

Make the 2 above BASE, if you ask me.

> util\memtest
> util\bootfix

> util\shsufdrv
> util\cwsdpmi
> archiver\zip
> archiver\unzip

I would make those 4 BASE, too.

> util\grep
> util\tee
> util\touch
> util\which
> util\pg
> 
> archiver\tar
> archiver\gzip
> archiver\bz2
> 
> devel\nasm

Which version?

> devel\fpc

> devel\ow

OpenWatcom C AND Assembler? And how about FreeBASIC?

> net\wget
> net\rsync
> net\curl
> 
> Add or remove anything else?

Add Bret's USB drivers, if you ask me. And some choice
of network packet drivers for common real and virtual
hardware, otherwise network tools like WGET do not make
much sense. Availability of free open source network
packet drivers is limited, but I am sure you have a few.

> Jerome

Regards, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jerome Shidel]

Hello all, 

> On Jan 26, 2016, at 6:18 PM, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Jerome, Jim et al,
> 
> In view of available disk space on normal computers, I would like to
> interpret Jim's view in a broad sense: If ANY version of MS DOS had
> the feature and we have something to provide the same feature, then
> we should make it part of a BASE install. This includes DEBUG, EDIT,
> EDLIN, BASIC, probably even LFN drivers, although LFN are part of a
> MS DOS version that could only be acquired as side-effect of Windows
> installs. But we have it and it is useful for many users. There are
> a few things that never shipped with MS DOS but which are BASE from
> my point of view: A package manager, ZIP / UNZIP and drivers for a
> number of modern pieces of hardware, including USB devices and DVD.
> 
> BASIC is a bit controversial - use BWBASIC, small but limited? Or use
> FreeBASIC, big but versatile? I would say one is enough for BASE but
> we should provide both for the "large" install option :-) When making
> a floppy distro, experience has shown that BASE nevertheless fits on
> two or three disks, with minimal changes, e.g. no BASIC and no EDLIN.
> So as said, I suggest a broad selection of base things to be BASE :-)
> 
> Jerome, regarding the packages which are part of the ALL choice: The
> list seems suspiciously SHORT to me! We had a lot more to offer in
> older FreeDOS distros when people selected "ALL". Unless things got
> dropped from Mateusz' repository, I would keep including them all.
> 

The ALL list is short. I do keep asking what else? Mainly, I mean what other 
packages from Mateusz' repository. Or other packages he may not have. But, I 
won't be packing up stuff to add so I would need prebuilt packages. :-)

> Jim wrote:
> 
>> Yes, my view is that FreeDOS "Base" should provide the equivalent
>> functionality to MS-DOS. Anything else (Devel, Edit, Util, .. or "All" if
>> you group it into one set) is extra functionality that wasn't included in
>> the original MS-DOS.
>> 
>> I think the important feature is that those who want just the "MS-DOS"
>> behavior can install only "Base" with the correspondingly small footprint,
>> while people who want a more modern DOS experience can install "All."
> 
> Jerome wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jerome, Jim et al,
> 
> In view of available disk space on normal computers, I would like to
> interpret Jim's view in a broad sense: If ANY version of MS DOS had
> the feature and we have something to provide the same feature, then
> we should make it part of a BASE install. This includes DEBUG, EDIT,
> EDLIN, BASIC, probably even LFN drivers, although LFN are part of a
> MS DOS version that could only be acquired as side-effect of Windows
> installs. But we have it and it is useful for many users. There are
> a few things that never shipped with MS DOS but which are BASE from
> my point of view: A package manager, ZIP / UNZIP and drivers for a
> number of modern pieces of hardware, including USB devices and DVD.
> 
> BASIC is a bit controversial - use BWBASIC, small but limited? Or use
> FreeBASIC, big but versatile? I would say one is enough for BASE but
> we should provide both for the "large" install option :-) When making
> a floppy distro, experience has shown that BASE nevertheless fits on
> two or three disks, with minimal changes, e.g. no BASIC and no EDLIN.
> So as said, I suggest a broad selection of base things to be BASE :-)
> 
> Jerome, regarding the packages which are part of the ALL choice: The
> list seems suspiciously SHORT to me! We had a lot more to offer in
> older FreeDOS distros when people selected "ALL". Unless things got
> dropped from Mateusz' repository, I would keep including them all.
> 
> Jim wrote:
> 
>> Yes, my view is that FreeDOS "Base" should provide the equivalent
>> functionality to MS-DOS. Anything else (Devel, Edit, Util, .. or "All" if
>> you group it into one set) is extra functionality that wasn't included in
>> the original MS-DOS.
>> 
>> I think the important feature is that those who want just the "MS-DOS"
>> behavior can install only "Base" with the correspondingly small footprint,
>> while people who want a more modern DOS experience can install "All."
> 
> Jerome wrote:
> 
>> At present, BASE is fairly close to the 1.1 BASE. Of course, it no
>> longer includes XMGR and UIDE. this is the current ALL packages that
>> are installed. Pull rdisk? Anything else?
> 
> It is good to exclude XMGR but Jim's 14 Jan mail spared UIDE, which I
> would really prefer to keep. You can also reduce that to UDVD2 if you
> want a more basic driver. Jim only wrote that we should drop the XMGR
> HIMEM-like XMS / HMA driver from the distro.
> 
>> https://github.com/shidel/FDI/blob/master/SETTINGS/PKG_BASE.LST
>> 
>> Please note, that FDI’s floppy boot image needs a CD/DVD driver and
>> it is currently using UDVD2.
>> 
>> These are the current additions that are installed when ALL is selected:
>> 
>> util\v8power
>> 
>> net\mtcp
> 

[Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Jerome Shidel]

 Hello Eric and all,

A little more follow up on the USB stick test.

The same user who was testing, per my suggestion ran it in advanced mode to 
override the automatic D: drive as the install target. He said the install ran 
flawlessly when he set it to C:\FDOS.

He did say that he had an issue booting it. And basically, it seems to be 
issues with the FDCONFIG paths. So, I will have to see if I can get FreeDOS to 
boot and load drivers from an unknown drive letter. FDI doesn't care what drive 
it is running on. The wrong target issue was an assumption I made and will fix. 

It appears that if I get the booting from G or L or X  to work, a USB stick 
installer may be viable.

Jerome

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incorrect spell-corrected words.
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Jerome Shidel]

> On Jan 26, 2016, at 7:00 PM, Mercury Thirteen  wrote:
> 
>> On 1/26/2016 6:18 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>> ...
>> 
>> Jerome, regarding the packages which are part of the ALL choice: The
>> list seems suspiciously SHORT to me! We had a lot more to offer in
>> older FreeDOS distros when people selected "ALL". Unless things got
>> dropped from Mateusz' repository, I would keep including them all.
>> 
>> ...
> 
> Yeah, I'm certain there were many more packages when I went through/updated 
> every single one for the ISO I put together months ago. Not sure which ones 
> are missing off the top of my head though.

Yes, there are many more packages on his repo. But, I don't think Jim wants 
everything on his repo to be installed when the user selects ALL. His repo 
contains about 500mb of zip files. The current USB stick image that only 
contained packages for BASE and ALL was about 75MB. A lot of which was FPC and 
OW.

> 
> -- 
> This has been a Mercury Thirteen transmission.
> "Why? Because FreeDOS, that's why."
> Things I endorse:
> AMD
> ATI
> eBid.net - A great eBay replacement which doesn't habitually screw over its 
> sellers! :)
> FreeDOS
> Samsung
> Subaru - The most capable AWD ever!
> Trump / Cruz 2016 - Make America great again!
> I promote these things because awesomeness and excellence deserve 
> recognition, not for personal gain of any kind.
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Mercury Thirteen]

On 1/26/2016 6:18 PM, Eric Auer wrote:

...

Jerome, regarding the packages which are part of the ALL choice: The
list seems suspiciously SHORT to me! We had a lot more to offer in
older FreeDOS distros when people selected "ALL". Unless things got
dropped from Mateusz' repository, I would keep including them all.

...


Yeah, I'm certain there were many more packages when I went 
through/updated every single one for the ISO I put together months ago. 
Not sure which ones are missing off the top of my head though.


--
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ATI
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FreeDOS
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Subaru - The most capable AWD ever!
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jerome,

if Mateusz' repository has "500 MB of packages", then that
would make a good choice for ALL as far as I am concerned:

It easily fits on a CD and you get plenty of DOS stuff :-)

Also, it should fit on most USB sticks as well. Maybe you
could make a list of the LARGEST packages in the repository
and I can tell you which seem okay to omit, if you want to
have the distro small enough to fit even on 512 MB sticks.

That could be a very interesting discussion for my taste :-)

>>> util\4dos
>>
>> Is the license of 4DOS fine at the moment?
> 
> ... There was talk about pulling it. And talk about how bad it would be to 
> not have it. 

Wikipedia says modified MIT license, that is good enough IMHO.

>>> devel\nasm
>>
>> Which version?
> 
> Latest for DOS, I think it is 2.11.08.

I was wondering if we should also provide a 16 bit version. But
remember: It is almost impossible to boot 16 bit hardware from
CD or from USB stick, so users with such hardware will probably
first install a BASE floppy distro and then use FDNPKG to add
packages manually by individual choice anyway. So it might be
better to include ONLY the 32 bit version of NASM 2.11.08 :-)

>>> devel\fpc
> 
> Only 2.6.4. 3.0.0 requires LFN or an extensive port. 

As mentioned, including LFN seems to be a good idea for me.

>>> devel\ow
>>
>> OpenWatcom C AND Assembler?
> 
> I don't use them. But, I have no issue with including them.

What I mean was that it would be GOOD to include both, as well
as other toolchain parts such as MAKE or LINK from OpenWatcom.

Cheers, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Mercury Thirteen]

On 1/26/2016 7:07 PM, Jerome Shidel wrote:
Yes, there are many more packages on his repo. But, I don't think Jim 
wants everything on his repo to be installed when the user selects 
ALL. His repo contains about 500mb of zip files. The current USB stick 
image that only contained packages for BASE and ALL was about 75MB. A 
lot of which was FPC and OW.

Ahh, ok I see.  :)

--
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI USB stick

[Louis Santillan]

I downloaded it last night.  I have an MSI Wind U100 (Atom N2700, 2GB DDR2,
120GB SATA) [0] and an eMachines M6805 (AMD Athlon 64 3000+ DTR, 512MB
PC2700, 4GB IDE) [1] I can test with when I get home tonight.


[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSI_Wind_Netbook
[1] http://www.cnet.com/products/emachines-m/specs/

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:

>  Hello Eric and all,
>
> A little more follow up on the USB stick test.
>
> The same user who was testing, per my suggestion ran it in advanced mode
> to override the automatic D: drive as the install target. He said the
> install ran flawlessly when he set it to C:\FDOS.
>
> He did say that he had an issue booting it. And basically, it seems to be
> issues with the FDCONFIG paths. So, I will have to see if I can get FreeDOS
> to boot and load drivers from an unknown drive letter. FDI doesn't care
> what drive it is running on. The wrong target issue was an assumption I
> made and will fix.
>
> It appears that if I get the booting from G or L or X  to work, a USB
> stick installer may be viable.
>
> Jerome
>
> Sent from my iPhone, ignore bad sentence structures, grammatical errors
> and incorrect spell-corrected words.
>
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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Antony Gordon  wrote:
>
> For Maarten and Mercury, look into DOS versions prior to 5.0, they included
> DEBUG and (GW-)BASIC.

DEBUG is sometimes useful but only rarely (at least outside of
actually debugging separately-assembled programs). By itself, it's
only good for very very simple tests. A full assembler would be more
useful.

NASM (even old 16-bit 0.98.39) or JWasmR or (386+) FASM(D) would
probably be more generically useful, IMHO.

> That would complete the DOS experience... well that and some sample BASIC
> programs like GORILLA.BAS

There are other interpreters which I find more useful than BWBasic.
Granted, if someone wants to debug and test it further, okay. But
as-is, I'm not sure it's reliable at all. Maybe something else
(Brandy/BBC) would be more useful, but I haven't tried it (and that
dialect is a bit quirky compared to QB). Hmmm, can't remember, but
that build might be 386+ DJGPP, which I guess some of you would
dislike as default. (I don't know what else, Chipmunk Basic from P2C
compiled by OW??)

Here's what one simple program of mine (from mid 2013) said:

"
REM tested with Bywater BASIC 2.50 (32-bit DOS OpenWatcom build)
REM *** still broken! doesn't work! don't use! ***

REM bug #1:  "option base 1" confuses SUB args / array bounds
REM bug #2:  CALLing a SUB won't work (hangs) if it has no args
REM bug #3:  sometimes gets confused on multi-statement ':' lines
"

And no, I don't think I reported these bugs (shame on me). No idea if
3.00 has them as well.

> and having LINK.EXE along with EXE2BIN.

The EXE2BIN in "BASE" is literally from OpenWatcom 1.5. And I have no
idea what you would do with it (or a linker) without some kind of
compiler. So I think that's a bad idea, even if MS used to do it. I've
said this before, but apparently nobody agrees with me.

Honestly, I think we'd "maybe" be better to just include something
unrelated like Awk and Sed (or maybe PicoC, which unlike the former is
32-bit DJGPP, ugh, can't please everyone).

http://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/util/file/awk/
http://ftp.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/util/file/sed/

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 1:13 PM, Jim Hall  wrote:
>
> Yes, if it replicated original MS-DOS functionality, it should be in Base.
> This includes programs like APPEND, ASSIGN, ATTRIB, CHKDSK, … UNDELETE,
> UNFORMAT, XCOPY, … etc.

A lot of things nobody will ever use (e.g. APPEND, ASSIGN, RECOVER).
Even some of the heavier useful ones are too obscure and thus aren't
used every single day. And noobs certain won't use them. (How often do
you mandatory need to run CHKDSK, UNDELETE, UNFORMAT? Not much!)

"BASE" is just probably too big. Sure, some of it is (barely) useful,
but that doesn't mean that it is so crucial as to "always" have
present.

Honestly, I suspect you disagree with me, but even things like ATTRIB
or XCOPY aren't that useful except in certain cases. I don't use them
every day.

I'm not saying so bare bones that we only have shell and kernel, but
it's just too many little pieces for us few left to maintain and keep
lugging around forever. I say split off all the obscure stuff to being
manually grabbed from the iBiblio mirror (or maybe an "extended"
distro) and keep things simple.

> We've always been very careful about extending the
> "Base" list, but over time we have added one or two things that weren't in
> the original MS-DOS. I prefer this list not grow too much. Extra items can
> go in other sets, or just a single "Extras" software set if we don't want to
> continue "Devel" and "Edit" and other sets.

The average user isn't quite hardcore enough to care about all the
little pieces. They just want to run a few select apps. They don't
necessarily need everything and the kitchen sink. Compare what DOSBox
doesn't give or what DOSEMU does give, and you'll see it's quite
different.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 6:07 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:
>
>> devel\fpc
>
> Only 2.6.4. 3.0.0 requires LFN or an extensive port.

No, it doesn't need LFNs for the bare minimum cmdline compiler (no
IDE). I'm not even sure the IDE needs LFN, only some rare third-party
units (perhaps) that most people don't directly use.

The installer sees "readme-jvm.txt" inside BASEDOS.ZIP and mistakenly
assumes it needs LFNs, thus you have to manually "check" [x] even the
most basic, required package because of that one "bug." Feel free to
"zip -d basedos.zip *readme-jvm.txt", and see that it changes.

I've tested BASEDOS.ZIP without LFNs, it works fine. Literally, the
only LFN file (AFAIK) is that one "readme-jvm.txt", which is hardly
useful. The minimum compiler *should* (and does) work with SFNs.

> Yes, there are many more packages on his repo. But, I don't think Jim wants
> everything on his repo to be installed when the user selects ALL. His repo
> contains about 500mb of zip files. The current USB stick image that only
> contained packages for BASE and ALL was about 75MB. A lot of which was FPC
> and OW.

IIRC, the old FPC.ZIP is 36 MB, which is just ridiculous. There aren't
many (if any) active FPC users (for FreeDOS) besides maybe Laaca, so
it's certainly not worth polluting the default download just for that.
Laaca already has a working compiler (or two), so he doesn't need FD
1.2 at all. So it's somewhat unfair to bloat up the image (and
download bandwidth) to 75 MB when it could be half of that. Let FPC
users grab it manually outside of the distro itself.

I hate to say that, and maybe you'll disagree, but it's just too big.
Now, we could include a simple (no IDE!) FPC compiler package. As
mentioned, the only absolutely mandatory minimum files are (AFAIK):
install.exe, install.dat, basedos.zip, aslddos.zip (but even that one
is semi-optional nowadays).

The problem is that end users demand IDEs and debuggers and lots of
units and full sources, and that is tedious and error-prone to
include. But again, we don't have enough interest to even include FPC
at all. So just save the space and dump it. Let interested users find
it manually (as they've already done). It's not "BASE", it's not that
crucial.

Just my two cents, I know you'll probably have other ideas.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] FDI and FreeDOS 1.2

[Mateusz Viste]

On 26/01/2016 12:10, Antony Gordon wrote:
> Things would be so much simpler if FreeDOS emulated the Microsoft and
> IBM (and Caldera, Digital Research) counterparts and installed the base
> operating system.

I second that. But it would seem we are isolated in this opinion, since 
I see all the time people talking about multiple-choice packages, 
"advanced" modes, "FULL 400M+ install", etc...

What I'd love, as a user, is to be able to put the FreeDOS install CD 
(or floppy) into my computer, select a single choice "Yes, I want to 
install FreeDOS even though it means all existing data will be wiped 
out", and get a FreeDOS shell seconds later. A shell that mimicks what 
MS-DOS 6.x provided. And only THEN, if I wish/need, I'd install 
additional stuff using FDNPKG and/or FDINST.

Mateusz




> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016, 7:31 PM Ralf Quint  > wrote:
>
> On 1/23/2016 3:45 PM, Rugxulo wrote:
>  > Hi again, quick reply,
>  >
>  > On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:43 PM, Rugxulo  > wrote:
>  >> On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Ralf Quint
> > wrote:
>  >>> On 1/22/2016 3:36 PM, Eric Auer wrote:
>  >>> BWBasic is an interpreter, which runs very well on FreeDOS,
> despite some
>  >>> shortcomings, hence should be very well kept within ant FreeDOS
> "distro"...
>  >> IMO, it was too buggy to use for much.
>  >
> Well, fix it. It's Open Source
>
> Ralf
>



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