date:20200316


But Felix
In many cases, all one needs  to do Is grab an old laptop, install ms dos 
via cd,  attach a dectalk or little talk or doubble talk or reading 
edge, or etc. etc., grab  the games and enjoy the ride.
 i have such a laptop  sitting in my office, although I use DOS for far 
more than games.

But that is me,
I would not project  my experience on to you, feeling certain you would 
not do the same since blindness is not two sides of a sight coin.

Karen



On Mon, 16 Mar 2020, Felix G. wrote:


Which is exactly why I'd love to boot natively into DOS, but as soon
as I do this, my accessibility provisions break down. This is why I
sometimes tend to sound like a grumpy old accessibility evangelist
ranting about how everything is so much more complicated just because
one sensory channel doesn't work. You should listen to me sometimes.
Right now I caught myself rambling to a friend about how I need to
invent convoluted cascades of virtualizations and emulations just to
get an old game to run as it's supposed to, whereas a sighted person
would just grab an old laptop, install FreeDOS natively, burn all
their vaforite games to a cd and enjoy the ride.
Oops, sorry, did it again.
Best,
Felix

Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 17:01 Uhr schrieb Bret Johnson :


I'm not sure if it will end up being relevant to this discussion or not, but I use VMWare 
version 14 under Windows 10 to create a virtual machine for DOS.  I prefer MS-DOS to 
FreeDOS for various reasons, though I do use some of the FreeDOS utilities.  I actually 
have the machine set up to dual-boot, where I can either boot Windows 10 or boot directly 
to "real" DOS.  Virtual machines are nice for some things, but they are far 
from a panacea.

The main reason I like VMWare is that it allows you to use a real partition on the hard 
drive as one of the disks in the DOS virtual machine.  You are not limited to 
"software hard drives" like you are in most other VM's.  That is, whatever I do 
to the hard drive in the DOS VM (or even directly from Windows) automatically shows up 
when I boot to real DOS and vice versa.  I don't need to do any FTP'ing or creating new 
ISO's or even remembering what I need to change the next time I boot up to keep my real 
DOS and my Virtual DOS synchronized.

The ability to access a real hard drive (or partition) from inside the DOS VM is the part 
of VMWare that I really like.  The part I really dislike is that it does a VERY bad job 
of handling the keyboard.  Inside the DOS VM the modifier keys (Shift, Control, Alt) are 
constantly getting "stuck" and the keyboard releases for some reason are not 
always correctly sent to the VM.  I'm constantly needing to press the modifier keys in 
the middle of my VM sessions so the key releases are recognized like they're supposed to 
be.  For that reason, I don't use the VMWare Virtual DOS for any serious work since it's 
a real PITA to use the keyboard.

I do know that DOSBox will also let you access real partitions, but almost none of the 
DOS programs I use work properly in DOSBox.  DOSBox is FAR from being a "real" 
DOS environment and is very limited in what you can do with it.
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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeD OS as a blind user

Bret,
Your points are important for a serious screen reader, because the
commands to access speech, read the current line or sections of the screen,
etc., incorporate those modifier keys. That is done so the screen reader
works in harmony with the system, real ms dos in this case.
My question for you is if running ms dos from your hard drive in this way
gives you access, or would give you access to the machine's actual
hardware?
i run Ms. Dos, but as the only system on my computer. Meaning my hardware
synthesizer attached to my physical serial port works just fine.

Same for the external USB drive attached to my physical USB port.
Would that also happen using ms DOS in a virtual environment?
Karen

On Mon, 16 Mar 2020, Bret Johnson wrote:

I'm not sure if it will end up being relevant to this discussion or not, but I use VMWare version 14 under Windows 10
to create a virtual machine for DOS. I prefer MS-DOS to FreeDOS for various reasons, though I do use some of the
FreeDOS utilities. I actually have the machine set up to dual-boot, where I can either boot Windows 10 or boot
directly to "real" DOS. Virtual machines are nice for some things, but they are far from a panacea. The main
reason I like VMWare is that it allows you to use a real partition on the hard drive as one of the disks in the DOS
virtual machine. You are not limited to "software hard drives" like you are in most other VM's. That is,
whatever I do to the hard drive in the DOS VM (or even directly from Windows) automatically shows up when I boot to
real DOS and vice versa. I don't need to do any FTP'ing or creating new ISO's or even remembering what I need to
change the next time I boot up to keep my real DOS and my Virtual DOS synchronized. The ability to access a real hard
drive (or partition) from inside the DOS VM is the part of VMWare that I really like. The part I really dislike is
that it does a VERY bad job of handling the keyboard. Inside the DOS VM the modifier keys (Shift, Control, Alt) are
constantly getting "stuck" and the keyboard releases for some reason are not always correctly sent to the VM.
I'm constantly needing to press the modifier keys in the middle of my VM sessions so the key releases are recognized
like they're supposed to be. For that reason, I don't use the VMWare Virtual DOS for any serious work since it's a
real PITA to use the keyboard. I do know that DOSBox will also let you access real partitions, but almost none of the
DOS programs I use work properly in DOSBox. DOSBox is FAR from being a "real" DOS environment and is very
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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user


On 16/03/2020 20:35, Karen Lewellen wrote:
Joseph, you opted for the braille and speak emulator, does that mean 
there exist other synthesizer emulators, for example is there a type & 
speak one or  a dectalk one?


I did some research and did not find any. The braille and speak system 
has been chosen probably because its protocol is simple and amount of 
features quite limited, which makes it easier to emulate.


In fact, I created my own Braille 'n Speak emulator last night. I'm not 
sure yet what to do with it - so far I connected it to a FreeDOS install 
running under VirtualBox and played with JAWS, but other usages would be 
possible as well: for example it could be installed on some cheap 
Raspberry Pi as a hardware alternative to aging devices.


Mateusz,  your explainations   help me a great deal.  My understanding 
is that, rather than installing freedos  via this fashion in a way that 
allows the use of actual hardware, the ports themselves are virtual, 
meaning it must be installed on a machine running something else, 
windows I suppose.


Windows or Linux, yes. The thing that allows to run an operating system 
within another operating system is called a hypervizor, and some 
hypervizors (VirtualBox and VMWare Player are two examples, but there 
are more) make it possible to redirect the COM port of the virtualized 
system somewhere else - for example a program that emulates a synthesizer.


further,  how current is Freedos  with DOS browsers?  Lynx is updated 
regularly for example.  there is a dos edition of l i n k s, as well 
adding JavaScript  of a sort.  what is the most current edition of Lynx 
incorporated into Freedos for example?


No idea, I do not use DOS for browsing the www, sorry. That being said, 
you might be interested in browsing the gopherspace. The gopherspace is 
a fully textual environment, the predecessor of the web really. There 
are still many enthusiasts running their own gopher servers world wide. 
Of course it is not an alternative to the web, but it does have 
interesting content, and seems to be perfectly suited to sight-impaired 
people due to its "text only" nature. I have written a gopher client for 
DOS, it is called "gopherus" and can be found here: 
http://gopherus.sourceforge.net


Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user

 Let me answer this in part.
Felix in no way shape form or fashion can speak to for  hundreds of 
millions of individuals who experience blindness.
That his highly convoluted solution works for him speak to no one else at 
all   but himself.
Making a judgment  about  incorporating access into freedos on a native 
level  is not his judgment call to   make.  after all Joseph has done it 
in his own way,  before even learning of Felix.

Why ask  one person if his  choice is a pattern for hundreds of millions?
Part of why there were so many synthesizers in the screen reader you 
tested, why there are even to this day  more than 50 screen readers 
across  operating systems is individual choice, ability and experience 
of blindness.
One of the greatest contributions to  lack of access is  the 
assumption you are making that blindness is 
experienced in the same way by everyone.  A shared label in no way on 
earth  makes a shared experience.
I mean goodness less than 10% of individuals who experience blindness read 
braille, at all.

Does that mean no one should have  Braille displays incorporated? no.
Likewise does it mean no choice of screen readers, and if possible 
synthesizers  should  be built into freedos at the native level?  no.
That question is 100% counter productive, because freedos should have 
incorporated choices.

Karen

On Mon, 16 Mar 2020, Mateusz Viste wrote:

Wow, that is much more convoluted than I was expecting. I'm impressed you 
were able to figure out such a solution.

Is this NVDA-over-ssh-over-dosemu approach providing satisfying usability 
compared to a native DOS screen reader like JAWS or ASAP? In other words, is 
there any point in trying to run a native screen reader within FreeDOS? As a 
test I tried this morning using FreeDOS being blindfolded, using only JAWS + 
espeak, and I am staggered how you guys are able to do anything at all in 
such environment. I was barely able to open a text file, and failed miserably 
trying to edit it - all this seem to require an outstanding memory just to 
keep track of what is supposed to be displayed on the screen at any given 
moment.

Mateusz

On 16/03/2020 14:20, Felix G. wrote:

 Hi Mateusz,
 I logged into a Linux server via SSH from Windows, installed Dosemu,
 then started Dosemu with the -t option, putting it into terminal mode.
 In effect, my Windows screen reader, which is called NVDA, detects and
 reads changes to that terminal session, thereby giving access to the
 DOS environment.
 Here is how I got Dosemu2:
 $ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:dosemu2/ppa
 $ sudo apt-get install dosemu2
 I then downloaded the FreeDOS Kernel, extracted KERNEL386.SYS, and
 copied it to ~/.dosemu/drive_c/KERNEL.SYS so Dosemu boots it up. I
 also replaced Dosemu's command interpreter by the COMMAND.COM that
 comes with FreeDOS, and then I tweaked autoexec.bat and fdconfig.sys
 until there was not a single error message during boot. Does a rather
 convincing DOS approximation. Since Dosemu's virtual C: drive is just
 a plain old directory on my Linux server, I can just unzip games to it
 and start them up, without so much as exiting Dosemu.
 Best,
 Felix

 Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 14:03 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Viste
 :
> 
>  On 16/03/2020 13:12, Felix G. wrote:

> >  In the meantime I was able to play the Time And Magik trilogy by Level
> >  9 in Dosemu2, using the current FreeDOS kernel 1.2
> 
>  May I ask how you achieved this? Have you managed to install a screen

>  reader within DOSemu, which would talk through some Linux TTS? I'm
>  geniunely curious.
> 
>  Mateusz

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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user

um,  gosh there is a sftp client included in sshdos that works for me 
several times a day.
May be no need to re-invent the wheel if you already have an ftp client built 
into freedos, since using freedos is the ultimate goal here?




On Mon, 16 Mar 2020, Eric Auer wrote:



Hi! Interesting that ftp between guest and host OS is
popular even for DOS. So maybe you want to try VMSMOUNT:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/repos/pkg-html/vmsmount.html

"A DOS redirector for mounting VMware's shared folders"

Current version is from 2013 so I wonder whether this
still works with up to date VMware?

Cheers, Eric

PS: One level up, you find free network packet drivers:


http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/repos/pkg-html/group-net.html





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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user


Hi Mateusz, and Joseph.
I have a couple of extra questions.
Joseph, you opted for the braille and speak emulator, does that mean there 
exist other synthesizer emulators, for example is there a type & speak one 
or  a dectalk one?
Mateusz,  your explainations   help me a great deal.  My understanding is 
that, 
rather than installing freedos  via this fashion in a way that allows the 
use of actual hardware, the ports themselves are virtual, meaning it must 
be installed on a machine running something else, windows I suppose.

Is that correct?
further,  how current is Freedos  with DOS browsers?  Lynx is updated 
regularly for example.  there is a dos edition of l i n k s, as well 
adding JavaScript  of a sort.  what is the most current edition of Lynx 
incorporated into Freedos for example?

Kare



On Mon, 16 Mar 2020, Mateusz Viste wrote:


Hello Joseph,
Thank you for the very detailed instructions - that's exactly what I was 
planning to test today, but it seems you did all the work already. To keep it 
short for other readers of this list, here's how it works:


1. FreeDOS must be installed inside a virtualization solution (I used 
VirtualBox, Joseph used VMWare Player)
2. FreeDOS must hae a screen reader installed (Joseph chose ASAP, while I was 
experimenting with PROVOX and JAWS)

3. The screen reader must be set to "Braille 'n Speak" mode and COM1
4. In the hypervizor properties, COM1 must be redirected to a virtual port: 
under Windows this can apparently be done with "Com0Com"
5. On the host OS, a Braille 'n Speak emulator needs to be installed and made 
to listen over the virtual port. The emulator is named "vbns" and is 
available in two flavors: one that uses eSpeak as its TTS backed, and another 
one that relies on the native Windows SAPI


Joseph, the only "non-free" part of your setup is the ASAP software. Have 
you, by any chance, fiddled with PROVOX? It's a DOS screen reader that was 
open-sourced under GPL2, and it seems to support Braille 'n Speak (called 
"BNS" in the program). If that would be a valid option, it's something that 
could be added to FreeDOS.


Mateusz




On 16/03/2020 03:59, joseph.nor...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Felix:

 Since you’re usig DOSBox, and the description of your setup, I think you
 have everything you need to run FreeDOS.

 If you want to try it, you can get VMWare Player for free and install it.

 I put together a version of FreeDOS  1.3 RC2 a couple months ago.  Here
 is the instruction files I posted back then.

 If you’re using the Talking DOSBox package, I believe it is configured
 for com9 as one of the ports.  If that’s the case, just substitute com9
 for the reference to com3.  Anyway, here is the instructions file I put
 together along with links that should get you on the way.  You probably
 don’t need to download com0com or the virtual Braille ‘n speak
 program, but, it just depends on what you want.

 Reply to me off-list at:

 joseph.nor...@gmail.com 

 if you have any questions:



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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user


 ahem,



On Sun, 15 Mar 2020, Ralf Quint wrote:



Well, talking about "as of yet" in relation to DOS is a bit far fetched, 
after all, DOS (as far as a mainstream OS) is pretty much dead for 25 years.
I take it you have neither joined lists like dos ain't dead, or followed 
the  djppp project, or say heard of freedos?

Which comes installed on some mainstream computers by default?
Usage and perspective of what is alive or dead  is in the eye of the 
beholder  so to speak.


Kare




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Re: [Freedos-user] OT: book reading via text to speech on e-book readers

Speaking personally, the site says nothing about how the touch screen 
would be  accessed inclusively.

There were no voice samples on the site either that I can find.
Still if someone has  the device I can give you a way to test from 
pronunciation based on a common complaint  I hear from those readers who 
use  say Kindles generally not from an accessibility standpoint.
Load a harry potter book or work of fanfiction, If Ron's last name is 
pronounced correctly its an improvement smiles.

Karen



On Mon, 16 Mar 2020, Eric Auer wrote:



Hi! As inspired by the current thread about screen readers etc.:


One reason why those used to speech synthesis dislike  tools l such
as Kindles though is because the speech quality is poor and the
pronounciation abilities reprehensible. [but Apple might be better?]


Excuse the off-topic, but has anybody tested the text-to-speech of
https://www.pocketbook-int.com/us/products/pocketbook-touch-hd-3
or other Pocketbook yet? It seems to have many languages and voices
but a quick check on youtube brought up mostly slavic examples: It
seems to read Russian quite well, for example. Another youtube had
an odd English sample text where it was less fluent, but that might
have been due to the strange test sentences used in that video.

Of course people can also use mp3 audiobooks on such devices, but
it would be nice to know whether they also work well for listening
to books for which the user only has a non-audio version around.

Eric

PS: I believe Pocketbook uses Linux or Android based firmware. They
are known for NOT locking users to a shop and do well with PDF, too.



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Re: [Freedos-user] Can't install FreeDOS

2020-03-16 Thread Random Liegh via Freedos-user




On 3/15/2020 11:08 AM, Rugxulo wrote:


My 486s, back in the day, were quite slow and underpowered (Sx/25 with
either 4 or 8 MB RAM and small hard drives [170 MB or 250 MB or
such]). In some ways, I wish I had one again (in fully working order),
just to benchmark stuff.

It seems like one of the (unstated?) goals of 86Box is realistic timing, 
and it provides several variations of the 486 you can use.


It's not the real thing, but could that be an option for benchmarking?



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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeD OS as a blind user

Which is exactly why I'd love to boot natively into DOS, but as soon
as I do this, my accessibility provisions break down. This is why I
sometimes tend to sound like a grumpy old accessibility evangelist
ranting about how everything is so much more complicated just because
one sensory channel doesn't work. You should listen to me sometimes.
Right now I caught myself rambling to a friend about how I need to
invent convoluted cascades of virtualizations and emulations just to
get an old game to run as it's supposed to, whereas a sighted person
would just grab an old laptop, install FreeDOS natively, burn all
their vaforite games to a cd and enjoy the ride.
Oops, sorry, did it again.
Best,
Felix

Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 17:01 Uhr schrieb Bret Johnson :
>
> I'm not sure if it will end up being relevant to this discussion or not, but 
> I use VMWare version 14 under Windows 10 to create a virtual machine for DOS. 
>  I prefer MS-DOS to FreeDOS for various reasons, though I do use some of the 
> FreeDOS utilities.  I actually have the machine set up to dual-boot, where I 
> can either boot Windows 10 or boot directly to "real" DOS.  Virtual machines 
> are nice for some things, but they are far from a panacea.
>
> The main reason I like VMWare is that it allows you to use a real partition 
> on the hard drive as one of the disks in the DOS virtual machine.  You are 
> not limited to "software hard drives" like you are in most other VM's.  That 
> is, whatever I do to the hard drive in the DOS VM (or even directly from 
> Windows) automatically shows up when I boot to real DOS and vice versa.  I 
> don't need to do any FTP'ing or creating new ISO's or even remembering what I 
> need to change the next time I boot up to keep my real DOS and my Virtual DOS 
> synchronized.
>
> The ability to access a real hard drive (or partition) from inside the DOS VM 
> is the part of VMWare that I really like.  The part I really dislike is that 
> it does a VERY bad job of handling the keyboard.  Inside the DOS VM the 
> modifier keys (Shift, Control, Alt) are constantly getting "stuck" and the 
> keyboard releases for some reason are not always correctly sent to the VM.  
> I'm constantly needing to press the modifier keys in the middle of my VM 
> sessions so the key releases are recognized like they're supposed to be.  For 
> that reason, I don't use the VMWare Virtual DOS for any serious work since 
> it's a real PITA to use the keyboard.
>
> I do know that DOSBox will also let you access real partitions, but almost 
> none of the DOS programs I use work properly in DOSBox.  DOSBox is FAR from 
> being a "real" DOS environment and is very limited in what you can do with it.
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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeD OS as a blind user

2020-03-16 Thread Bret Johnson

I'm not sure if it will end up being relevant to this discussion or not, but I 
use VMWare version 14 under Windows 10 to create a virtual machine for DOS.  I 
prefer MS-DOS to FreeDOS for various reasons, though I do use some of the 
FreeDOS utilities.  I actually have the machine set up to dual-boot, where I 
can either boot Windows 10 or boot directly to "real" DOS.  Virtual machines 
are nice for some things, but they are far from a panacea. The main reason I 
like VMWare is that it allows you to use a real partition on the hard drive as 
one of the disks in the DOS virtual machine.  You are not limited to "software 
hard drives" like you are in most other VM's.  That is, whatever I do to the 
hard drive in the DOS VM (or even directly from Windows) automatically shows up 
when I boot to real DOS and vice versa.  I don't need to do any FTP'ing or 
creating new ISO's or even remembering what I need to change the next time I 
boot up to keep my real DOS and my Virtual DOS synchronized. The ability to 
access a real hard drive (or partition) from inside the DOS VM is the part of 
VMWare that I really like.  The part I really dislike is that it does a VERY 
bad job of handling the keyboard.  Inside the DOS VM the modifier keys (Shift, 
Control, Alt) are constantly getting "stuck" and the keyboard releases for some 
reason are not always correctly sent to the VM.  I'm constantly needing to 
press the modifier keys in the middle of my VM sessions so the key releases are 
recognized like they're supposed to be.  For that reason, I don't use the 
VMWare Virtual DOS for any serious work since it's a real PITA to use the 
keyboard. I do know that DOSBox will also let you access real partitions, but 
almost none of the DOS programs I use work properly in DOSBox.  DOSBox is FAR 
from being a "real" DOS environment and is very limited in what you can do with 
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[Freedos-user] notes about setting up the ftp server.

2020-03-16 Thread joseph.norton

Hi Felix If you decide to go the ftp route, here are a couple things you will need to do and some example files you will need to edit. First, once you install FreeDOS, the networking stuff will not be installed by default. To install them, run fdimples. Press down arrow until you hear ASAP say "group networking".  Press space.  You will hear ASAP say some xs as the components get marked.  Press tab until you hear ASAP say "ok".  Press space and the networking components will get installed.  Press the alt key once for silence, twice for clicking to tel you output is being sent to the screen.  At the end of installation, ASAP will give a low beep and you may hear the last package's information repeated.  Issue the "reboot" command and your system will reboot with networking enabled. Next, there are two configuration files you need to edit. First, you need to put a couple lines at the end of the file "c:\fdos\mtcp.cfg You can use the edit command to open the file and press ctrl+end to jump to the bottom of the file.  Press treutn and add these two lines at the bottom. ftpsrv_password_file ftppass.txtftpsrv_log_file ftplog.txt Now, cd into c:\mtcp and edit the file ftppass.txt.  On line 17, you will see a sample username and password filled in.  You can simply change them as you want.  Next, put a number sign at the beginning of lines 18, 19, and 26. Here's my ftppass.txt file so you can see how it should look. Only one line does not begin with a number sign (just in case the mail program word wrapts this: # mTCP FTPSrv user/password sample file## User file format## user password sandboxdir uploaddir permissions## Commands with permissions: dele, mkd, rmd, rnfr, stor, appe, stou# "all" is an alias for everything## DOS paths are in /drive_X/path form where X is the drive letter.# For example, e:/ftpdata is written as /drive_e/ftpdata .## For sandboxdir, enter [none] or a full path name (drive letter included)# For uploaddir, enter [any] or a full path name (relative if using sandbox,#   or absolute if not using the sandbox).#jnorton   cats  [none]    [any] all# ftp   [email]   /drive_e/ftpdata  /testdir/incoming stor stou# anonymous [email]   /drive_e/ftpdata  /testdir/incoming stor stou### The next line defines a readonly user - notice there are not# permissions defined.  Don't worry about the [any] in the# uploaddir field - it is just taking up space.## readonly  [email]   /drive_e/ftpdata  [any] To start the server, cd into mtcp and run ftpsrv. You might get an error about drives a and b, just press enter to ignore those.  ASAP will not automatically read the ftpsrv information, but, if you don't hear anything, the server is probably running.  If you immediately hear a dos prompt, something went wrong.  User ASAP's review commands to see what the error was. If you have never used Windows ftp before, Windows security will ask you to allow access the first time you transfer a file ot list a directory.  Aos, if you log in successfully to the ftp server from the host, you will hear a couple beeps from FreeDOS.  With this default configuration file, you can access any of your drives.  Do an ls and it will show you the names.  The c drive is accessed as "drive_c". , the d drive as "drive_d" etc.  Once you cd into a drive, you have full access. Hope this helps.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user

Hi Mateusz,
I agree it is convoluted, but it's fun to play with such things. The
user experience is less than optimum because NVDA has its own ideas
about what part of a terminal window has changed between consecutive
states. So the virtualization approach is not off the table and is,
indeed, scheduled for tonight.
Working in such environments is just a matter of training. No
outstanding memory or very high IQ or any such thing is required.
Rather, when working this way on a daily basis, your memory would
gradually adjust to this kind of demand, just as it naturally learned
over time to recall points of interest when driving, if indeed you do
drive. Our brains wire in such a way that we develop an encoding which
is isomorphous to the aspects of reality to which we relate, which is
the exact same process as learning a language. You might go so far as
to say that reality itself is a self-processing self-configuring
language, but now that's metaphysics and way off topic.
Best,
Felix

Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 14:46 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Viste :
>
> Wow, that is much more convoluted than I was expecting. I'm impressed
> you were able to figure out such a solution.
>
> Is this NVDA-over-ssh-over-dosemu approach providing satisfying
> usability compared to a native DOS screen reader like JAWS or ASAP? In
> other words, is there any point in trying to run a native screen reader
> within FreeDOS? As a test I tried this morning using FreeDOS being
> blindfolded, using only JAWS + espeak, and I am staggered how you guys
> are able to do anything at all in such environment. I was barely able to
> open a text file, and failed miserably trying to edit it - all this seem
> to require an outstanding memory just to keep track of what is supposed
> to be displayed on the screen at any given moment.
>
> Mateusz
>
>
>
> On 16/03/2020 14:20, Felix G. wrote:
> > Hi Mateusz,
> > I logged into a Linux server via SSH from Windows, installed Dosemu,
> > then started Dosemu with the -t option, putting it into terminal mode.
> > In effect, my Windows screen reader, which is called NVDA, detects and
> > reads changes to that terminal session, thereby giving access to the
> > DOS environment.
> > Here is how I got Dosemu2:
> > $ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:dosemu2/ppa
> > $ sudo apt-get install dosemu2
> > I then downloaded the FreeDOS Kernel, extracted KERNEL386.SYS, and
> > copied it to ~/.dosemu/drive_c/KERNEL.SYS so Dosemu boots it up. I
> > also replaced Dosemu's command interpreter by the COMMAND.COM that
> > comes with FreeDOS, and then I tweaked autoexec.bat and fdconfig.sys
> > until there was not a single error message during boot. Does a rather
> > convincing DOS approximation. Since Dosemu's virtual C: drive is just
> > a plain old directory on my Linux server, I can just unzip games to it
> > and start them up, without so much as exiting Dosemu.
> > Best,
> > Felix
> >
> > Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 14:03 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Viste :
> >>
> >> On 16/03/2020 13:12, Felix G. wrote:
> >>> In the meantime I was able to play the Time And Magik trilogy by Level
> >>> 9 in Dosemu2, using the current FreeDOS kernel 1.2
> >>
> >> May I ask how you achieved this? Have you managed to install a screen
> >> reader within DOSemu, which would talk through some Linux TTS? I'm
> >> geniunely curious.
> >>
> >> Mateusz
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user

Wow, that is much more convoluted than I was expecting. I'm impressed 
you were able to figure out such a solution.


Is this NVDA-over-ssh-over-dosemu approach providing satisfying 
usability compared to a native DOS screen reader like JAWS or ASAP? In 
other words, is there any point in trying to run a native screen reader 
within FreeDOS? As a test I tried this morning using FreeDOS being 
blindfolded, using only JAWS + espeak, and I am staggered how you guys 
are able to do anything at all in such environment. I was barely able to 
open a text file, and failed miserably trying to edit it - all this seem 
to require an outstanding memory just to keep track of what is supposed 
to be displayed on the screen at any given moment.


Mateusz



On 16/03/2020 14:20, Felix G. wrote:

Hi Mateusz,
I logged into a Linux server via SSH from Windows, installed Dosemu,
then started Dosemu with the -t option, putting it into terminal mode.
In effect, my Windows screen reader, which is called NVDA, detects and
reads changes to that terminal session, thereby giving access to the
DOS environment.
Here is how I got Dosemu2:
$ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:dosemu2/ppa
$ sudo apt-get install dosemu2
I then downloaded the FreeDOS Kernel, extracted KERNEL386.SYS, and
copied it to ~/.dosemu/drive_c/KERNEL.SYS so Dosemu boots it up. I
also replaced Dosemu's command interpreter by the COMMAND.COM that
comes with FreeDOS, and then I tweaked autoexec.bat and fdconfig.sys
until there was not a single error message during boot. Does a rather
convincing DOS approximation. Since Dosemu's virtual C: drive is just
a plain old directory on my Linux server, I can just unzip games to it
and start them up, without so much as exiting Dosemu.
Best,
Felix

Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 14:03 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Viste :


On 16/03/2020 13:12, Felix G. wrote:

In the meantime I was able to play the Time And Magik trilogy by Level
9 in Dosemu2, using the current FreeDOS kernel 1.2


May I ask how you achieved this? Have you managed to install a screen
reader within DOSemu, which would talk through some Linux TTS? I'm
geniunely curious.

Mateusz



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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user

Hi Mateusz,
I logged into a Linux server via SSH from Windows, installed Dosemu,
then started Dosemu with the -t option, putting it into terminal mode.
In effect, my Windows screen reader, which is called NVDA, detects and
reads changes to that terminal session, thereby giving access to the
DOS environment.
Here is how I got Dosemu2:
$ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:dosemu2/ppa
$ sudo apt-get install dosemu2
I then downloaded the FreeDOS Kernel, extracted KERNEL386.SYS, and
copied it to ~/.dosemu/drive_c/KERNEL.SYS so Dosemu boots it up. I
also replaced Dosemu's command interpreter by the COMMAND.COM that
comes with FreeDOS, and then I tweaked autoexec.bat and fdconfig.sys
until there was not a single error message during boot. Does a rather
convincing DOS approximation. Since Dosemu's virtual C: drive is just
a plain old directory on my Linux server, I can just unzip games to it
and start them up, without so much as exiting Dosemu.
Best,
Felix

Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 14:03 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Viste :
>
> On 16/03/2020 13:12, Felix G. wrote:
> > In the meantime I was able to play the Time And Magik trilogy by Level
> > 9 in Dosemu2, using the current FreeDOS kernel 1.2
>
> May I ask how you achieved this? Have you managed to install a screen
> reader within DOSemu, which would talk through some Linux TTS? I'm
> geniunely curious.
>
> Mateusz
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user


On 16/03/2020 13:12, Felix G. wrote:

In the meantime I was able to play the Time And Magik trilogy by Level
9 in Dosemu2, using the current FreeDOS kernel 1.2


May I ask how you achieved this? Have you managed to install a screen 
reader within DOSemu, which would talk through some Linux TTS? I'm 
geniunely curious.


Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user

2020-03-16 Thread Eric Auer



Hi! Interesting that ftp between guest and host OS is
popular even for DOS. So maybe you want to try VMSMOUNT:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/repos/pkg-html/vmsmount.html

"A DOS redirector for mounting VMware's shared folders"

Current version is from 2013 so I wonder whether this
still works with up to date VMware?

Cheers, Eric

PS: One level up, you find free network packet drivers:

> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/repos/pkg-html/group-net.html




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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user

Made my day! I'll try the FTP way, then I won't constantly be creating
ISOs just because something else came to mind.
In the meantime I was able to play the Time And Magik trilogy by Level
9 in Dosemu2, using the current FreeDOS kernel 1.2, so functionally
I'm already mostly where I wanted to be. Ask away if you'd like to
replicate. Nostalgia knows no bounds, though, and will carry me into
VM land tonight.
Best,
Felix

Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 12:37 Uhr schrieb :
>
> Hi:
>
>
>
> VMWare itself does not provide a solution for copying files into the DOS 
> system.
>
>
>
> However, one way I did is using ftp.
>
>
>
> FreeDOS comes with an ftp server that you can start up.
>
>
>
> You need to edit the configuration file to put in the User name and password 
> you want to set up, then, once you start the program, you can use FTP on the 
> host to upload files into your system.
>
>
>
> What I would do is to zip up any set of files I wanted and then upload it 
> using ftp.
>
>
>
> Then, I can go into the DOS system, stop the FTP server with ctrl+x and then 
> unzip the files I just uploaded, since zip and unzip are already included.
>
>
>
> Here's another thought, and this has also worked for me.
>
>
>
> If you have a way to create ISO files, you can create an ISO file containing 
> whatever software you have and have VMWare mount that file.
>
>
>
> FreeDOS has CD-Rom support built in, so upon next bootup, it should find your 
> mounted iso, and you can have a CD-Rom full of stuff you can manipulate.
>
>
>
> There may be a samba client or other network client in there, but, my family 
> and other obligations prevent me from committing a lot of time to this.
>
>
>
> I basically set it up and hoped someone with more time might be able to 
> improve on it.
>
>
>
> Maybe later today, I can try building another image with provox in it, but, I 
> can't be sure, depending on what happens around here.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>
>
>
> From: Felix G.
> Sent: Monday, March 16, 2020 4:38 AM
> To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
> Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using 
> FreeDOS as a blind user
>
>
>
> Hi Joseph and list,
>
> this is an amazing community, and I would like to say thank you for
>
> all the valuable help I am getting here. Since this is a process of
>
> playful learning for me, all your responses have been most welcome,
>
> and all have been useful to different degrees and in different areas.
>
> Your openness and questions are giving me some excellent opportunities
>
> to spread the word on how blind people use computers.
>
> Eric, your Dosemu approach seems optimum to me for casual gaming
>
> scenarios. Thank you very much for this.
>
> Joseph, you are correct in assuming I have been using Talking Dosbox,
>
> and so I'll definitely look into your VM solution. Thank you very much
>
> for that one. Could you please elaborate a bit on how I might get some
>
> games I have on my hard drive into the VM? Is there a way in VMWare
>
> Player to map, for instance, drive d: to point to some directory on
>
> the host? Or can I somehow mount and edit the VM's file system while
>
> the VM is sleeping?
>
> Best,
>
> Felix
>
>
>
> Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 04:01 Uhr schrieb :
>
> >
>
> > Hi Felix:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Since you’re usig DOSBox, and the description of your setup, I think you 
> > have everything you need to run FreeDOS.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If you want to try it, you can get VMWare Player for free and install it.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I put together a version of FreeDOS  1.3 RC2 a couple months ago.  Here is 
> > the instruction files I posted back then.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If you’re using the Talking DOSBox package, I believe it is configured for 
> > com9 as one of the ports.  If that’s the case, just substitute com9 for the 
> > reference to com3.  Anyway, here is the instructions file I put together 
> > along with links that should get you on the way.  You probably don’t need 
> > to download com0com or the virtual Braille ‘n speak program, but, it just 
> > depends on what you want.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Reply to me off-list at:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > joseph.nor...@gmail.com
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > if you have any questions:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ___
>
> > Freedos-user mailing list
>
> > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
>
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user

2020-03-16 Thread joseph.norton

Hi: VMWare itself does not provide a solution for copying files into the DOS system. However, one way I did is using ftp. FreeDOS comes with an ftp server that you can start up. You need to edit the configuration file to put in the User name and password you want to set up, then, once you start the program, you can use FTP on the host to upload files into your system. What I would do is to zip up any set of files I wanted and then upload it using ftp. Then, I can go into the DOS system, stop the FTP server with ctrl+x and then unzip the files I just uploaded, since zip and unzip are already included. Here's another thought, and this has also worked for me. If you have a way to create ISO files, you can create an ISO file containing whatever software you have and have VMWare mount that file. FreeDOS has CD-Rom support built in, so upon next bootup, it should find your mounted iso, and you can have a CD-Rom full of stuff you can manipulate. There may be a samba client or other network client in there, but, my family and other obligations prevent me from committing a lot of time to this. I basically set it up and hoped someone with more time might be able to improve on it. Maybe later today, I can try building another image with provox in it, but, I can't be sure, depending on what happens around here. Hope this helps. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Felix G.Sent: Monday, March 16, 2020 4:38 AMTo: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user Hi Joseph and list,this is an amazing community, and I would like to say thank you forall the valuable help I am getting here. Since this is a process ofplayful learning for me, all your responses have been most welcome,and all have been useful to different degrees and in different areas.Your openness and questions are giving me some excellent opportunitiesto spread the word on how blind people use computers.Eric, your Dosemu approach seems optimum to me for casual gamingscenarios. Thank you very much for this.Joseph, you are correct in assuming I have been using Talking Dosbox,and so I'll definitely look into your VM solution. Thank you very muchfor that one. Could you please elaborate a bit on how I might get somegames I have on my hard drive into the VM? Is there a way in VMWarePlayer to map, for instance, drive d: to point to some directory onthe host? Or can I somehow mount and edit the VM's file system whilethe VM is sleeping?Best,Felix Am Mo., 16. März 2020 um 04:01 Uhr schrieb :> > Hi Felix:> > > > Since you’re usig DOSBox, and the description of your setup, I think you have everything you need to run FreeDOS.> > > > If you want to try it, you can get VMWare Player for free and install it.> > > > I put together a version of FreeDOS  1.3 RC2 a couple months ago.  Here is the instruction files I posted back then.> > > > If you’re using the Talking DOSBox package, I believe it is configured for com9 as one of the ports.  If that’s the case, just substitute com9 for the reference to com3.  Anyway, here is the instructions file I put together along with links that should get you on the way.  You probably don’t need to download com0com or the virtual Braille ‘n speak program, but, it just depends on what you want.> > > > Reply to me off-list at:> > > > joseph.nor...@gmail.com> > > > if you have any questions:> > > > ___> Freedos-user mailing list> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user  ___Freedos-user mailing listFreedos-user@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user 

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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user

Here is one link I found with PROVOX:

http://www.nfbnet.org/files/blind/PROVOX66.ZIP

I'd be really curious to know if it's good for anything - myself, I was 
unable to make it output anything more than beeps so far.

cheers,
Mateusz

On 16/03/2020 11:32, joseph.nor...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi:

I forgot to mention that the author of ASAP, Larry Skutchan has given me 
permission to include ASAP with the package, as long as I include a 
statement from him.

I put it in one of the readme files under the ASAP directory, but, 
essentially, Larry Skutchan is ok with me distributing ASAP in my 
package, but, requests that he not be contacted for tech support, as he 
is no longer actively supporting the product.

Provox should work, though, if you can point me to a source for it, I 
can try to add it as an option.

Sent from Mail  for 
Windows 10

*From: *Mateusz Viste 
*Sent: *Monday, March 16, 2020 4:49 AM
*To: *freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net 

*Subject: *Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about 
using FreeDOS as a blind user

Hello Joseph,

Thank you for the very detailed instructions - that's exactly what I was

planning to test today, but it seems you did all the work already. To

keep it short for other readers of this list, here's how it works:

1. FreeDOS must be installed inside a virtualization solution (I used

VirtualBox, Joseph used VMWare Player)

2. FreeDOS must hae a screen reader installed (Joseph chose ASAP, while

I was experimenting with PROVOX and JAWS)

3. The screen reader must be set to "Braille 'n Speak" mode and COM1

4. In the hypervizor properties, COM1 must be redirected to a virtual

port: under Windows this can apparently be done with "Com0Com"

5. On the host OS, a Braille 'n Speak emulator needs to be installed and

made to listen over the virtual port. The emulator is named "vbns" and

is available in two flavors: one that uses eSpeak as its TTS backed, and

another one that relies on the native Windows SAPI

Joseph, the only "non-free" part of your setup is the ASAP software.

Have you, by any chance, fiddled with PROVOX? It's a DOS screen reader

that was open-sourced under GPL2, and it seems to support Braille 'n

Speak (called "BNS" in the program). If that would be a valid option,

it's something that could be added to FreeDOS.

Mateusz

On 16/03/2020 03:59, joseph.nor...@gmail.com wrote:

 > Hi Felix:

 >

 > Since you’re usig DOSBox, and the description of your setup, I think you

 > have everything you need to run FreeDOS.

 >

 > If you want to try it, you can get VMWare Player for free and install it.

 >

 > I put together a version of FreeDOS  1.3 RC2 a couple months ago.  Here

 > is the instruction files I posted back then.

 >

 > If you’re using the Talking DOSBox package, I believe it is configured

 > for com9 as one of the ports.  If that’s the case, just substitute com9

 > for the reference to com3.  Anyway, here is the instructions file I put

 > together along with links that should get you on the way.  You probably

 > don’t need to download com0com or the virtual Braille ‘n speak program,

 > but, it just depends on what you want.

 >

 > Reply to me off-list at:

 >

 > joseph.nor...@gmail.com 

 >

 > if you have any questions:

 >

 >

 >

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 >

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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user

2020-03-16 Thread joseph.norton

Hi: I forgot to mention that the author of ASAP, Larry Skutchan has given me permission to include ASAP with the package, as long as I include a statement from him. I put it in one of the readme files under the ASAP directory, but, essentially, Larry Skutchan is ok with me distributing ASAP in my package, but, requests that he not be contacted for tech support, as he is no longer actively supporting the product. Provox should work, though, if you can point me to a source for it, I can try to add it as an option.  Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Mateusz VisteSent: Monday, March 16, 2020 4:49 AMTo: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.netSubject: Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user Hello Joseph, Thank you for the very detailed instructions - that's exactly what I was planning to test today, but it seems you did all the work already. To keep it short for other readers of this list, here's how it works: 1. FreeDOS must be installed inside a virtualization solution (I used VirtualBox, Joseph used VMWare Player)2. FreeDOS must hae a screen reader installed (Joseph chose ASAP, while I was experimenting with PROVOX and JAWS)3. The screen reader must be set to "Braille 'n Speak" mode and COM14. In the hypervizor properties, COM1 must be redirected to a virtual port: under Windows this can apparently be done with "Com0Com"5. On the host OS, a Braille 'n Speak emulator needs to be installed and made to listen over the virtual port. The emulator is named "vbns" and is available in two flavors: one that uses eSpeak as its TTS backed, and another one that relies on the native Windows SAPI Joseph, the only "non-free" part of your setup is the ASAP software. Have you, by any chance, fiddled with PROVOX? It's a DOS screen reader that was open-sourced under GPL2, and it seems to support Braille 'n Speak (called "BNS" in the program). If that would be a valid option, it's something that could be added to FreeDOS. MateuszOn 16/03/2020 03:59, joseph.nor...@gmail.com wrote:> Hi Felix:> > Since you’re usig DOSBox, and the description of your setup, I think you > have everything you need to run FreeDOS.> > If you want to try it, you can get VMWare Player for free and install it.> > I put together a version of FreeDOS  1.3 RC2 a couple months ago.  Here > is the instruction files I posted back then.> > If you’re using the Talking DOSBox package, I believe it is configured > for com9 as one of the ports.  If that’s the case, just substitute com9 > for the reference to com3.  Anyway, here is the instructions file I put > together along with links that should get you on the way.  You probably > don’t need to download com0com or the virtual Braille ‘n speak program, > but, it just depends on what you want.> > Reply to me off-list at:> > joseph.nor...@gmail.com > > if you have any questions:> > > > ___> Freedos-user mailing list> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user>   ___Freedos-user mailing listFreedos-user@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user 

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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user


Hello Joseph,

Thank you for the very detailed instructions - that's exactly what I was 
planning to test today, but it seems you did all the work already. To 
keep it short for other readers of this list, here's how it works:


1. FreeDOS must be installed inside a virtualization solution (I used 
VirtualBox, Joseph used VMWare Player)
2. FreeDOS must hae a screen reader installed (Joseph chose ASAP, while 
I was experimenting with PROVOX and JAWS)

3. The screen reader must be set to "Braille 'n Speak" mode and COM1
4. In the hypervizor properties, COM1 must be redirected to a virtual 
port: under Windows this can apparently be done with "Com0Com"
5. On the host OS, a Braille 'n Speak emulator needs to be installed and 
made to listen over the virtual port. The emulator is named "vbns" and 
is available in two flavors: one that uses eSpeak as its TTS backed, and 
another one that relies on the native Windows SAPI


Joseph, the only "non-free" part of your setup is the ASAP software. 
Have you, by any chance, fiddled with PROVOX? It's a DOS screen reader 
that was open-sourced under GPL2, and it seems to support Braille 'n 
Speak (called "BNS" in the program). If that would be a valid option, 
it's something that could be added to FreeDOS.


Mateusz




On 16/03/2020 03:59, joseph.nor...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Felix:

Since you’re usig DOSBox, and the description of your setup, I think you 
have everything you need to run FreeDOS.


If you want to try it, you can get VMWare Player for free and install it.

I put together a version of FreeDOS  1.3 RC2 a couple months ago.  Here 
is the instruction files I posted back then.


If you’re using the Talking DOSBox package, I believe it is configured 
for com9 as one of the ports.  If that’s the case, just substitute com9 
for the reference to com3.  Anyway, here is the instructions file I put 
together along with links that should get you on the way.  You probably 
don’t need to download com0com or the virtual Braille ‘n speak program, 
but, it just depends on what you want.


Reply to me off-list at:

joseph.nor...@gmail.com 

if you have any questions:



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Re: [Freedos-user] Introducing myself, and inquiring about using FreeDOS as a blind user