Re: [Freedos-user] Backslash key on UK keyboard not recognised

2020-05-03 Thread Ralf Quint

On 5/3/2020 9:15 AM, Ian Park wrote:


Hi Ralf (I deduce from the time difference that it's "good morning" 
with you...)
Well, yes, though while I am German, I am living in the country side of 
Los Angeles, but had left early for some community event around 8am... ;-)


Thank you for the pointer. I checked my autoexec.bat, and as set up 
when I installed FreeDOS it loaded mkeyb UK in conventional memory. I 
tried replacing mkeyb with KEYB and restarted (even a full shutdown 
and power up again, to make sure), but the \ key still didn't respond. 
I noticed that autoexec.bat has a line


REM KEYB US,858,%dosdir%\bin\keyboard.sys

I tried pasting the extra characters into the line for KEYB UK & 
restarted, but still no joy. I suspect that I would need to climb into 
the keyboard map file to deal with this, but it's so long since I did 
anything vaguely serious with DOS (my first ever PC was at work: an 
IBM XT with a magnificent 10MB hard drive...) that I can't remember 
where to start looking...
The above line is a REMark, it will not be executed unless you remove 
the "REM " from the beginning of that line. Don't now right now what the 
right code page (the second parameter, here 858) for the UK is but you 
could just replace the US with UK and remove the rest of the line, it is 
optional.
I'll have to rake around with DuckDuckGo... 


Yuk, I dread DuckDuckNoGo, I always ended up with more questions rather 
than answers.


I am a bit confused with the description you gave of the location of the 
\ key, can you post a picture of the keyboard you're using (or a link to 
a web site showing the keyboard layout). I have in the past (a long time 
ago while still living in Germany) run a couple of times into keyboards 
that had some weird scan codes. mostly with not so standard keyboard 
layouts...


Ralf



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Re: [Freedos-user] HP11 Streamer?

2020-05-03 Thread Vincent Asaro
On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 9:54 PM dmccunney  wrote:

> On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 8:10 PM Vincent Asaro 
> wrote:
> >
> > Dennis - Thank you for all the info!
>
> You're welcome.
>
> > I installed Linux Mint via USB on that machine, I just want to be sure
> FD will "see" the ports, so to speak, but the FD page sez it's so, so it
> must be!
>
> Seeing USB ports and being able to use them are different things.
> Bear in mind that FreeDOS was intended to be a compatible open source
> alternative to MSDOS.  USB did not *exist* when what FreeDOS was
> trying to be compatible with was still being developed and sold.  An
> assortment of things folks would like in FreeDOS fall into the "It
> didn't exist in real DOS, and therefore doesn't in FreeDOS" bucket.
> USB is a FreeDOS work in progress.  There is some support, but whether
> there is support for what you require is another matter.  (Assuming
> you can install FreeDOS *from* USB, can you then write *to* something
> attached to USB, like a thumb drive?  How will you get stuff you
> create *on* the HP off of it and to something else?  And yes,
> networking will be another challenge.)
>
> > I found the code for EP on Archive.org, mimeo of typewritten doc (!)
> it's abt 4 pages long and I have every intention of punching in every
> character manually LoL It's one of my Holy Grails, just to use that program
> :)
>
> Have fun.  EP was originally written for an 8 bit Atari microcomputer
> that did not use CP/M or DOS as the OS.  It was ported to CP/M by
> other hands, and then to TRSDOS on the TRS-80 by yet other hands.  Do
> not expect the source you found on archive.org in a scan of a
> typewritten document to be usable as is, even if you successfully
> transcribe it.
>
> Since you were able to install Linux Mint (and I assume it ran), you
> might be better served by installing DOSBox under Mint and using it to
> run old DOS apps.  You would at least have USB support already extant.
> (I'd want more RAM on the HP machine, but 2GB should work.  I have
> Lubuntu dual-booting on an Acer Aspire1 notebook with WinXP Home.  The
> Acer has 1.5GB RAM.  Lubuntu is not exactly speedy, but *does* run.)
> __
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>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] HP11 Streamer?

2020-05-03 Thread dmccunney
On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 8:10 PM Vincent Asaro  wrote:
>
> Dennis - Thank you for all the info!

You're welcome.

> I installed Linux Mint via USB on that machine, I just want to be sure FD 
> will "see" the ports, so to speak, but the FD page sez it's so, so it must be!

Seeing USB ports and being able to use them are different things.
Bear in mind that FreeDOS was intended to be a compatible open source
alternative to MSDOS.  USB did not *exist* when what FreeDOS was
trying to be compatible with was still being developed and sold.  An
assortment of things folks would like in FreeDOS fall into the "It
didn't exist in real DOS, and therefore doesn't in FreeDOS" bucket.
USB is a FreeDOS work in progress.  There is some support, but whether
there is support for what you require is another matter.  (Assuming
you can install FreeDOS *from* USB, can you then write *to* something
attached to USB, like a thumb drive?  How will you get stuff you
create *on* the HP off of it and to something else?  And yes,
networking will be another challenge.)

> I found the code for EP on Archive.org, mimeo of typewritten doc (!) it's abt 
> 4 pages long and I have every intention of punching in every character 
> manually LoL It's one of my Holy Grails, just to use that program :)

Have fun.  EP was originally written for an 8 bit Atari microcomputer
that did not use CP/M or DOS as the OS.  It was ported to CP/M by
other hands, and then to TRSDOS on the TRS-80 by yet other hands.  Do
not expect the source you found on archive.org in a scan of a
typewritten document to be usable as is, even if you successfully
transcribe it.

Since you were able to install Linux Mint (and I assume it ran), you
might be better served by installing DOSBox under Mint and using it to
run old DOS apps.  You would at least have USB support already extant.
(I'd want more RAM on the HP machine, but 2GB should work.  I have
Lubuntu dual-booting on an Acer Aspire1 notebook with WinXP Home.  The
Acer has 1.5GB RAM.  Lubuntu is not exactly speedy, but *does* run.)
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] HP11 Streamer?

2020-05-03 Thread Vincent Asaro
Dennis - Thank you for all the info! I installed Linux Mint via USB on that
machine, I just want to be sure FD will "see" the ports, so to speak, but
the FD page sez it's so, so it must be! I found the code for EP on
Archive.org, mimeo of typewritten doc (!) it's abt 4 pages long and I have
every intention of punching in every character manually LoL It's one of my
Holy Grails, just to use that program :)

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 6:22 PM dmccunney  wrote:

> On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 4:28 PM Vincent Asaro 
> wrote:
> >
> > Eric,
> >
> > Thank you for the detailed response! I never played video games,
> actually, I'm just nostalgic for the text interface experience and I really
> want to use WordPerfect again but without installing a VM. As long as I can
> enter code and also load DOS programs via USB, I'll get tons of mileage out
> of FD - there are several legacy word processors I also want to try, like
> Electric Pencil. A weird obsession, I know, but I'm a writer ;) Thanks
> again!
>
> It depends on what you consider a VM.  There is an open source
> cross-platform package called DOSbox, intended to let folks play old
> DOS games on things that *aren't* DOS PCs.  A fork called vDOS is
> specifically intended for supporting DOS character mode productivity
> applications, but it is X86 specific.
>
> I use the vDOSPlus fork of vDOS to run an assortment of old DOS
> programs here under Win10.  In my case, I run  the VDE editor, which
> is a WordStar clone that originated under CP/M and was subsequently
> moved to DOS (though I have successfully run WS7 as well.), and a few
> old DOS character mode games, like DOS versions of Unix Larn and VMS
> Empire.  Word Perfect runs as well, and there's a fan site with
> details on running it under vDOS here:
> http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/wpdos/vdoswp.html
>
> (I have also gotten them running on an Android tablet using an Android
> port of DOSBox.  The problem there was finding an Android port of
> DOSBox that passed ctrl-key combos through to the application, which
> as an absolute necessity for running a WordStar style editor.)
>
> DOSBox and VDOSPlus implement enough of DOS to run DOS applications
> but you'll want to add things.  In particular, the provided shell you
> talk to at a command line is a subset of COMMAND.COM providing just
> enough to let you type in the name of a program to run.  For
> anythi8nhg beyond that, you'll want to install FreeDOS command or 4DOS
> which is also available for FreeDOS.
>
> Running DOS apps here with vDOSPlus is a matter of a shortcut that
> runs the vDOSPlus program, and runs it *in* the directory where the
> DOS app lives. vDOS looks for autoexec.txt and config.txt files which
> are the equivalent of autoexec.bat and config.sys and perform the same
> functions and you run the program from auatexec..
>
> You can find vDOSPlus here: https://www.vDosPlus.org
>
> If you want to run  FreeDOS "on the bare metal", so to speak, your
> hardware looks more than adequate, assuming you can install from USB.
>
> Where did you find a runnable version of Electric Pencil?
>
> > ~ Vincent
> __
> Dennis
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] HP11 Streamer?

2020-05-03 Thread Vincent Asaro
PS: Will FD recognize the USB ports? What I'm after is to load/run
WordPerfect, my favorite word processor, which I now miss dearly.

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 4:11 PM Vincent Asaro  wrote:

> Thank you! It's this little jobbie:
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/HP-11-d010wm-2-16GHz-Certified-Refurbished/dp/B07L5QQMJP/ref=sr_1_16?crid=1WS283A5OXV7E=1=hp+11+stream+laptop=1588536603=hp11+stre%2Caps%2C186=8-16
>
> Linux Mint has very easy BIOS access.
>
> On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 4:00 PM Jim Hall  wrote:
>
>> I couldn't find the exact specs on this laptop, but I think you mean this
>> one:
>> https://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-stream-11-pro-g5-notebook-pc-5ga98av-mb
>>
>> If this has a BIOS, then it should work. Yes, you'd need to try it with
>> the USB installer.
>>
>> On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 2:49 PM Vincent Asaro 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have a little HP11 streaming laptop I'm not using - I used it to try
>>> out Linux Mint, now it's redundant - is it a good candidate for FreeDOS?
>>> I'd be dependant on the USB ports for I/O. Thank you!
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Re: [Freedos-user] HP11 Streamer?

2020-05-03 Thread dmccunney
On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 4:28 PM Vincent Asaro  wrote:
>
> Eric,
>
> Thank you for the detailed response! I never played video games, actually, 
> I'm just nostalgic for the text interface experience and I really want to use 
> WordPerfect again but without installing a VM. As long as I can enter code 
> and also load DOS programs via USB, I'll get tons of mileage out of FD - 
> there are several legacy word processors I also want to try, like Electric 
> Pencil. A weird obsession, I know, but I'm a writer ;) Thanks again!

It depends on what you consider a VM.  There is an open source
cross-platform package called DOSbox, intended to let folks play old
DOS games on things that *aren't* DOS PCs.  A fork called vDOS is
specifically intended for supporting DOS character mode productivity
applications, but it is X86 specific.

I use the vDOSPlus fork of vDOS to run an assortment of old DOS
programs here under Win10.  In my case, I run  the VDE editor, which
is a WordStar clone that originated under CP/M and was subsequently
moved to DOS (though I have successfully run WS7 as well.), and a few
old DOS character mode games, like DOS versions of Unix Larn and VMS
Empire.  Word Perfect runs as well, and there's a fan site with
details on running it under vDOS here:
http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/wpdos/vdoswp.html

(I have also gotten them running on an Android tablet using an Android
port of DOSBox.  The problem there was finding an Android port of
DOSBox that passed ctrl-key combos through to the application, which
as an absolute necessity for running a WordStar style editor.)

DOSBox and VDOSPlus implement enough of DOS to run DOS applications
but you'll want to add things.  In particular, the provided shell you
talk to at a command line is a subset of COMMAND.COM providing just
enough to let you type in the name of a program to run.  For
anythi8nhg beyond that, you'll want to install FreeDOS command or 4DOS
which is also available for FreeDOS.

Running DOS apps here with vDOSPlus is a matter of a shortcut that
runs the vDOSPlus program, and runs it *in* the directory where the
DOS app lives. vDOS looks for autoexec.txt and config.txt files which
are the equivalent of autoexec.bat and config.sys and perform the same
functions and you run the program from auatexec..

You can find vDOSPlus here: https://www.vDosPlus.org

If you want to run  FreeDOS "on the bare metal", so to speak, your
hardware looks more than adequate, assuming you can install from USB.

Where did you find a runnable version of Electric Pencil?

> ~ Vincent
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Re: [Freedos-user] HP11 Streamer?

2020-05-03 Thread Vincent Asaro
Thank you! It's this little jobbie:

https://www.amazon.com/HP-11-d010wm-2-16GHz-Certified-Refurbished/dp/B07L5QQMJP/ref=sr_1_16?crid=1WS283A5OXV7E=1=hp+11+stream+laptop=1588536603=hp11+stre%2Caps%2C186=8-16

Linux Mint has very easy BIOS access.

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 4:00 PM Jim Hall  wrote:

> I couldn't find the exact specs on this laptop, but I think you mean this
> one:
> https://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-stream-11-pro-g5-notebook-pc-5ga98av-mb
>
> If this has a BIOS, then it should work. Yes, you'd need to try it with
> the USB installer.
>
> On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 2:49 PM Vincent Asaro 
> wrote:
>
>> I have a little HP11 streaming laptop I'm not using - I used it to try
>> out Linux Mint, now it's redundant - is it a good candidate for FreeDOS?
>> I'd be dependant on the USB ports for I/O. Thank you!
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Re: [Freedos-user] Backslash key on UK keyboard not recognised

2020-05-03 Thread Eric Auer


Hi! MKEYB has a few built-in maps, so you need no separate
map file. Check the command line help. If you do use full
keyb, remember to remove the REM which comments it out ;-)

Regards, Eric





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Re: [Freedos-user] Backslash key on UK keyboard not recognised

2020-05-03 Thread Ian Park

On 03/05/2020 15:48, Ralf Quint wrote:

On 5/3/2020 1:49 AM, Ian Park wrote:

Good morning

Over the past few days I've progressed as far as installing FreeDOS 
1.2 on an old PC (HP Deskpro low profile, 1700MHz Pentium, 512MB RAM, 
20GB HDD, CD ROM drive). Still early stages, I'm finding my way 
around before I try to move on to connecting to a network (but that's 
another story...).


I've hit an oddity; FreeDOS doesn't recognise the backslash (\) key 
on my USB UK keyboard. The other two PCs to which I connect it 
through a USB sharing switch (the one which I'm using to compose this 
email, running Linux Mint, and another running Windows 10) both 
recognise it. When I get time I'll try the US keyboard driver to see 
whether that recognises the \ key, but fairly obviously that would be 
rather less than ideal, since it's a UK keyboard!


Can anyone offer a suggestion to deal with this problem, please? 


Which keyboard "driver" are you loading? With which parameters and 
where is it loaded?


For all non-US ASCII keyboards, you need to load "KEYB" in 
autoexec.bat, for a UK keyboard this would be "keyb UK"


Ralf




Hi Ralf (I deduce from the time difference that it's "good morning" with 
you...)


Thank you for the pointer. I checked my autoexec.bat, and as set up when 
I installed FreeDOS it loaded mkeyb UK in conventional memory. I tried 
replacing mkeyb with KEYB and restarted (even a full shutdown and power 
up again, to make sure), but the \ key still didn't respond. I noticed 
that autoexec.bat has a line


REM KEYB US,858,%dosdir%\bin\keyboard.sys

I tried pasting the extra characters into the line for KEYB UK & 
restarted, but still no joy. I suspect that I would need to climb into 
the keyboard map file to deal with this, but it's so long since I did 
anything vaguely serious with DOS (my first ever PC was at work: an IBM 
XT with a magnificent 10MB hard drive...) that I can't remember where to 
start looking... I'll have to rake around with DuckDuckGo...


Best regards

Ian

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Re: [Freedos-user] HP11 Streamer?

2020-05-03 Thread Vincent Asaro
Eric,

Thank you for the detailed response! I never played video games, actually,
I'm just nostalgic for the text interface experience and I really want to
use WordPerfect again but without installing a VM. As long as I can enter
code and also load DOS programs via USB, I'll get tons of mileage out of FD
- there are several legacy word processors I also want to try, like
Electric Pencil. A weird obsession, I know, but I'm a writer ;) Thanks
again!

~ Vincent

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 4:14 PM Eric Auer  wrote:

>
> Hi Vincent! I would say as long as it has at least a
> few megabytes of RAM and at least a 386 CPU, FreeDOS
> should run on any PC ;-) Which specific parts are you
> worried about? The BIOS will usually support "legacy"
> OS such as DOS in helping with USB keyboard and mouse
> access and access to any built-in harddisk or SSD.
>
> Even the newest graphics cards should still support
> classic text mode and common VGA modes, but there
> is a thread in the BTTR forum complaining that some
> new graphics cards became too exotic for DOS games.
>
> Note that almost no game for DOS will support current
> sound infrastructure such as AC97 or HDA. If you are
> looking for sound beyond the PC speaker or beeper, it
> is better to run DOS in a virtual environment such as
> dosemu2 or a complete generic virtual PC. Using dosemu
> has the advantage that you get guest drivers which let
> you access a Linux directory as if it was a DOS disk.
>
> Regarding disk sizes: FreeDOS supports only MBR style
> partitions yet, no GPT, so you are limited to using
> the first 2 TB of your disks. If your BIOS does not
> support LBA48, it could even be the first 128 GB.
>
> Regards, Eric
>
> PS: There are some DOS media players which support some
> newer sound chips, but I do not know any games which do.
>
> > I have a little HP11 streaming laptop I'm not using - I used it to try
> out
> > Linux Mint, now it's redundant - is it a good candidate for FreeDOS? I'd
> be
> > dependant on the USB ports for I/O. Thank you!
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] HP11 Streamer?

2020-05-03 Thread Eric Auer


Hi Vincent! I would say as long as it has at least a
few megabytes of RAM and at least a 386 CPU, FreeDOS
should run on any PC ;-) Which specific parts are you
worried about? The BIOS will usually support "legacy"
OS such as DOS in helping with USB keyboard and mouse
access and access to any built-in harddisk or SSD.

Even the newest graphics cards should still support
classic text mode and common VGA modes, but there
is a thread in the BTTR forum complaining that some
new graphics cards became too exotic for DOS games.

Note that almost no game for DOS will support current
sound infrastructure such as AC97 or HDA. If you are
looking for sound beyond the PC speaker or beeper, it
is better to run DOS in a virtual environment such as
dosemu2 or a complete generic virtual PC. Using dosemu
has the advantage that you get guest drivers which let
you access a Linux directory as if it was a DOS disk.

Regarding disk sizes: FreeDOS supports only MBR style
partitions yet, no GPT, so you are limited to using
the first 2 TB of your disks. If your BIOS does not
support LBA48, it could even be the first 128 GB.

Regards, Eric

PS: There are some DOS media players which support some
newer sound chips, but I do not know any games which do.

> I have a little HP11 streaming laptop I'm not using - I used it to try out
> Linux Mint, now it's redundant - is it a good candidate for FreeDOS? I'd be
> dependant on the USB ports for I/O. Thank you!




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Re: [Freedos-user] HP11 Streamer?

2020-05-03 Thread Jim Hall
I couldn't find the exact specs on this laptop, but I think you mean this
one:
https://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-stream-11-pro-g5-notebook-pc-5ga98av-mb

If this has a BIOS, then it should work. Yes, you'd need to try it with the
USB installer.

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 2:49 PM Vincent Asaro  wrote:

> I have a little HP11 streaming laptop I'm not using - I used it to try out
> Linux Mint, now it's redundant - is it a good candidate for FreeDOS? I'd be
> dependant on the USB ports for I/O. Thank you!
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[Freedos-user] HP11 Streamer?

2020-05-03 Thread Vincent Asaro
I have a little HP11 streaming laptop I'm not using - I used it to try out
Linux Mint, now it's redundant - is it a good candidate for FreeDOS? I'd be
dependant on the USB ports for I/O. Thank you!
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Re: [Freedos-user] Backslash key on UK keyboard not recognised

2020-05-03 Thread Ralf Quint

On 5/3/2020 1:49 AM, Ian Park wrote:

Good morning

Over the past few days I've progressed as far as installing FreeDOS 
1.2 on an old PC (HP Deskpro low profile, 1700MHz Pentium, 512MB RAM, 
20GB HDD, CD ROM drive). Still early stages, I'm finding my way around 
before I try to move on to connecting to a network (but that's another 
story...).


I've hit an oddity; FreeDOS doesn't recognise the backslash (\) key on 
my USB UK keyboard. The other two PCs to which I connect it through a 
USB sharing switch (the one which I'm using to compose this email, 
running Linux Mint, and another running Windows 10) both recognise it. 
When I get time I'll try the US keyboard driver to see whether that 
recognises the \ key, but fairly obviously that would be rather less 
than ideal, since it's a UK keyboard!


Can anyone offer a suggestion to deal with this problem, please? 


Which keyboard "driver" are you loading? With which parameters and where 
is it loaded?


For all non-US ASCII keyboards, you need to load "KEYB" in autoexec.bat, 
for a UK keyboard this would be "keyb UK"


Ralf


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[Freedos-user] Fwd: Backslash key on UK keyboard not recognised

2020-05-03 Thread Ian Park

  
  
Further to my email this morning, I tried using the US keyboard
  driver, and as I suspected, the \ key on my UK keyboard still
  wasn't recognised. The \ and | characters are produced by the key
  on the UK keyboard which is labelled # and ~ and the other changes
  in character mapping are as I would expect from switching to a US
  keyboard map. To switch to a US keyboard map to get the \ or |
  characters is, in my book, not a sensible option - does anyone
  know a route to getting the \ and | key (just to the left of Z) on
  a UK keyboard to work with FreeDOS, please?
Thanks in advance
  
  Ian
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   Forwarded Message 
  

  
Subject:

[Freedos-user] Backslash key on UK keyboard not
  recognised
  
  
Date: 
Sun, 3 May 2020 09:49:00 +0100
  
  
From: 
Ian Park 
  
  
Reply-To:

Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
  
  
  
To: 
FreeDOS User Mailing List
  
  

  
  
  
  Good morning
  
  Over the past few days I've progressed as far as installing
  FreeDOS 1.2 on an old PC (HP Deskpro low profile, 1700MHz Pentium,
  512MB RAM, 20GB HDD, CD ROM drive). Still early stages, I'm
  finding my way around before I try to move on to connecting to a
  network (but that's another story...).
  
  I've hit an oddity; FreeDOS doesn't recognise the backslash (\)
  key on my USB UK keyboard. The other two PCs to which I connect it
  through a USB sharing switch (the one which I'm using to compose
  this email, running Linux Mint, and another running Windows 10)
  both recognise it. When I get time I'll try the US keyboard driver
  to see whether that recognises the \ key, but fairly obviously
  that would be rather less than ideal, since it's a UK keyboard!
  
  Can anyone offer a suggestion to deal with this problem, please?
  
  Thanks in advance
  
  Ian
  
  -- 
--
Ian Park
email: i.d.c.p...@chalmers-park.name
--



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[Freedos-user] Backslash key on UK keyboard not recognised

2020-05-03 Thread Ian Park

Good morning

Over the past few days I've progressed as far as installing FreeDOS 1.2 
on an old PC (HP Deskpro low profile, 1700MHz Pentium, 512MB RAM, 20GB 
HDD, CD ROM drive). Still early stages, I'm finding my way around before 
I try to move on to connecting to a network (but that's another story...).


I've hit an oddity; FreeDOS doesn't recognise the backslash (\) key on 
my USB UK keyboard. The other two PCs to which I connect it through a 
USB sharing switch (the one which I'm using to compose this email, 
running Linux Mint, and another running Windows 10) both recognise it. 
When I get time I'll try the US keyboard driver to see whether that 
recognises the \ key, but fairly obviously that would be rather less 
than ideal, since it's a UK keyboard!


Can anyone offer a suggestion to deal with this problem, please?

Thanks in advance

Ian

--
--
Ian Park
email: i.d.c.p...@chalmers-park.name
--



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