Re: [Freedos-user] Invalid opcode - where do I even begin?

[Adam Nielsen via Freedos-user]

> I've run some software on Pentium 3 Tualatin S on FreeDOS and it's 
> getting an invalid opcode error.
> 
> If anyone's wondering, the offending software is Contra and Quake 1.08 
> (software renderer).

If you're getting the error with multiple unrelated programs, have you
tried running Memtest86 or equivalent to confirm that your memory chips
are working correctly?

Failed RAM (or running it out of spec/overclocking it) can cause random
bit flips which could lead to errors like this.

As a side note, a bit flip may not be corrupting the code, it can also
corrupt jump addresses which cause the CPU to jump to the wrong address
and start executing data as if it were code.

Cheers,
Adam.


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Re: [Freedos-user] DMA management?

[Michał Dec]

Hi,

No, the truth about what I'm using is much more spooky.

The mainboard is an Abit VP6. That kind of board has the VIA VT82C686B 
souhtbridge. To even use the Yamaha card, I needed a modified version of 
their DOS driver which activates the SoundBlaster Pro integrated circuit 
over either SBLink or DDMA - whichever the user chooses based on their 
setup. In my case it's DDMA.


The SoftMenu III BIOS does not mention DMA assignments anywhere, but I 
can check for PnP options...


Thank you for your input. I'll give ICU a shot as well.

Best regards,

Michał

W dniu 05.03.2021 o 00:02, Adam Nielsen pisze:

Hi Michal,

Many BIOS setups have a section where you can manually assign resources
to PCI slots, so I'd check there first and see if you can tell it to
assign what you want to the slot your sound card is in.  Make sure you
disable the option that a plug-and-play OS is installed in order for
these options to become available.

Failing that, I believe you will have to install a PnP configuration
manager such as Intel's ICU.  This will run during boot and assign IRQs
and DMA addresses to all PnP devices.  I haven't tested this with PCI
devices (only ISA) but I think it handles PCI too.  It's really meant
for older BIOSes that don't support PnP.

You could also see if you can find DOS drivers for the YMF card.
Creative Labs distributed their own cut down configuration manager
similar to the Intel ICU except it only handled their sound cards, so
Yamaha might have done the same.

Note that PCI doesn't use the ISA DMA signals so I'm assuming you're
using an SB-Link cable and your BIOS lets you change the SB-Link DMA,
otherwise if your card is loading a driver that uses software
emulation for the DMA channel instead, then reconfiguring that driver
would be the solution.

If you're not using the SB-Link cable it's possible that is hard-wired
to DMA1 and that's why it's unavailable for your card, so in that case
the solution would be to either get an SB-Link cable or see if you can
disable SB-Link in the BIOS to free up DMA1.

Cheers,
Adam.

On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 22:39:56 +0100
Michał Dec  wrote:


Hello,

Is there any way to manage DMA channel assignments? My setup relies on
Yamaha YMF724F for sound, due to there being no ISA slots to get a
proper sound card. Unfortunately, there's no way to have the card work
with DMA 1 or 3. It's stuck on DMA 0 and this is wrong in so many
ways... I've researched this issue and turns out that DMA 0 was
historically reserved for DRAM controllers, then it was a daisy-chain
linking 8-bit and 16-bit DMA controllers. Most games I have support
sound cards on DMA 0, but some have a more conservative design and won't
budge. Even editing the config files to seemingly force this change will
yield no result.

Best regards,

Michał



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Re: [Freedos-user] DMA management?

[Adam Nielsen via Freedos-user]

Hi Michal,

Many BIOS setups have a section where you can manually assign resources
to PCI slots, so I'd check there first and see if you can tell it to
assign what you want to the slot your sound card is in.  Make sure you
disable the option that a plug-and-play OS is installed in order for
these options to become available.

Failing that, I believe you will have to install a PnP configuration
manager such as Intel's ICU.  This will run during boot and assign IRQs
and DMA addresses to all PnP devices.  I haven't tested this with PCI
devices (only ISA) but I think it handles PCI too.  It's really meant
for older BIOSes that don't support PnP.

You could also see if you can find DOS drivers for the YMF card.
Creative Labs distributed their own cut down configuration manager
similar to the Intel ICU except it only handled their sound cards, so
Yamaha might have done the same.

Note that PCI doesn't use the ISA DMA signals so I'm assuming you're
using an SB-Link cable and your BIOS lets you change the SB-Link DMA,
otherwise if your card is loading a driver that uses software
emulation for the DMA channel instead, then reconfiguring that driver
would be the solution.

If you're not using the SB-Link cable it's possible that is hard-wired
to DMA1 and that's why it's unavailable for your card, so in that case
the solution would be to either get an SB-Link cable or see if you can
disable SB-Link in the BIOS to free up DMA1.

Cheers,
Adam.

On Thu, 4 Mar 2021 22:39:56 +0100
Michał Dec  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Is there any way to manage DMA channel assignments? My setup relies on 
> Yamaha YMF724F for sound, due to there being no ISA slots to get a 
> proper sound card. Unfortunately, there's no way to have the card work 
> with DMA 1 or 3. It's stuck on DMA 0 and this is wrong in so many 
> ways... I've researched this issue and turns out that DMA 0 was 
> historically reserved for DRAM controllers, then it was a daisy-chain 
> linking 8-bit and 16-bit DMA controllers. Most games I have support 
> sound cards on DMA 0, but some have a more conservative design and won't 
> budge. Even editing the config files to seemingly force this change will 
> yield no result.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Michał
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] 1.3RC3 Installation woes (was Re: FDISK 1.3.3)

[Jerome Shidel]

> On Mar 4, 2021, at 3:47 PM, Ralf Quint  > wrote:
> 
> [..]
> I don't see how this would prevent the transfer of boot record, kernel, 
> command.com  and a basic config.sys,bat (and a 
> basic FREEDOS\BIN folder). If someone at this point chose to format the C: 
> drive, I doubt that there is any reason NOT to make this drive bootable (and 
> at least baseline workable, in case of an unexpected abortion of the install 
> process). That doesn't mean that the installer has to reboot at that point, 
> so the boot order of the system for example should not be an issue…

If the installer transfer the SYS files immediately after formatting the drive, 
the system will be bootable. But, it could be without any drivers and software 
whatsoever. The user may not know how or for other reasons may not be able to 
change the boot order. They may even have a locked BIOS with an password. A 
Graphic logo that hides the optional keys to enter the BIOS. Or, with many 
virtual machines manually edition a config file somewhere may be required to 
entire the BIOS. 

For example, 

User starts install on clean VM.
User partitions drive and reboots.
User formats drive.
User selects return to DOS when asked to install.
User reboots VM to try again.
VM boots to “enter date time prompts”
User ends up needing to destroy VM and start over.

If that was on real hardware with a locked BIOS, the user may needing to remove 
the HD. 

when you say "at least baseline workable” … There is only so much room on the 
Floppy image and it is mostly limited to what is already present there. So, 
without CD support the hard drive would at best contain only what is on the 
Floppy image already. There really is not point risking being locked into HD 
only booting. It would provide nothing that the Floppy image doesn’t already 
do. 

On the hand, the Floppy only edition is designed to work without CD support. It 
will install FreeDOS BASE. It is a great starting point for systems that have 
an unsupported or non-existent CD drive. 
> 
> Ralf
> 
:-)

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Re: [Freedos-user] Invalid opcode - where do I even begin?

[Michał Dec]

Hi,

No, Contra is that side-scroller shooting game for Nintendo 
Entertainment System. It had a DOS port.


Best regards,

Michał

W dniu 04.03.2021 o 23:37, Louis Santillan pisze:
I think those are binary instructions.  Not actual addresses.  You 
could try disassembling here [0] but a quick cut & paste gave an 
instruction sequence that is non-obvious to me.  If Contra is a 
debugger/mod, then that makes a little more sense.  The full message 
might also help clear things up. Also, noting what memory managers, 
drivers, and other software versions are running also helps.


[0] https://defuse.ca/online-x86-assembler.htm#disassembly2 



On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 12:37 PM Michał Dec > wrote:


Hello,

I've run some software on Pentium 3 Tualatin S on FreeDOS and it's
getting an invalid opcode error. The error precisely says "Invalid
opcode at ..." where ... is a bunch of 16 bit variables. Saying
"at" is
really misleading and doesn't make any sense, since such a high
address
like let's say 628a  3002 206f 2b43 202b 202d 6f43 7970 6972 6867
2074 3931 is well within the realm of ZFS storage, not protected mode
address space :D

If anyone's wondering, the offending software is Contra and Quake
1.08
(software renderer). For what it's worth, the above hex string is
exactly what Quake blurted out.

Where do I even begin with understanding this message? Is this a
series
of opcodes the CPU failed to run, or is this an address, or is it
something else? I could recompile Quake, but Contra will probably
require me to patch the binary with the help of reverse
engineering tools.

Best regards,

Michał



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Re: [Freedos-user] Invalid opcode - where do I even begin?

[Louis Santillan]

I think those are binary instructions.  Not actual addresses.  You could
try disassembling here [0] but a quick cut & paste gave an instruction
sequence that is non-obvious to me.  If Contra is a debugger/mod, then that
makes a little more sense.  The full message might also help clear things
up.  Also, noting what memory managers, drivers, and other software
versions are running also helps.

[0] https://defuse.ca/online-x86-assembler.htm#disassembly2

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 12:37 PM Michał Dec  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I've run some software on Pentium 3 Tualatin S on FreeDOS and it's
> getting an invalid opcode error. The error precisely says "Invalid
> opcode at ..." where ... is a bunch of 16 bit variables. Saying "at" is
> really misleading and doesn't make any sense, since such a high address
> like let's say 628a  3002 206f 2b43 202b 202d 6f43 7970 6972 6867
> 2074 3931 is well within the realm of ZFS storage, not protected mode
> address space :D
>
> If anyone's wondering, the offending software is Contra and Quake 1.08
> (software renderer). For what it's worth, the above hex string is
> exactly what Quake blurted out.
>
> Where do I even begin with understanding this message? Is this a series
> of opcodes the CPU failed to run, or is this an address, or is it
> something else? I could recompile Quake, but Contra will probably
> require me to patch the binary with the help of reverse engineering tools.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Michał
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] 1.3RC3 Installation woes (was Re: FDISK 1.3.3)

[Ralf Quint]

On 3/4/2021 12:36 PM, Jerome Shidel wrote:


On Mar 4, 2021, at 2:56 PM, Ralf Quint > wrote:


[..]
Yes, I can fix this problem myself, that is not the issue. It is that 
this all seems to trip potential new users right at the start.


From what I recall (and I could be wrong), the vast majority of “new” 
users are not running on bare metal. Mostly it get’s installed
into a virtual machine. That isn’t to say it is not a problem. Just 
saying it isn’t how most users run FreeDOS.
Well, could you consider that this is likely an observation of a symptom 
rather than the cause?


I would also wondering why the C: drive, though offered to be 
formatted, is at the same time not "SYStemized", including a baseline 
config.sys and autoexec.bat as well as a base FREEDOS folder before 
starting FDIMPLES to install further packages. To me, this seems to 
be the next logical step (and what I just did manually to move on on 
this system)...



Not sure what you mean.

If you are referring to why the kernel and the shell are not 
transferred automatically to drive C: when the disk is formatted, 
there are several reasons. Mostly, those are:


— some systems won’t boot into FreeDOS after a simple SYS. Sometimes 
more work is required to make that happen. All of it is consolidated 
into a single par of the installer to aid in simplifying the code some.


— the installer can run in advanced mode. when it does, that step is 
optional. A user could for example in advanced mode, install just the 
FreeDOS binaries onto PC/MS-DOS.


— most systems are (including VMs) are configured to boot the HD 
before the CD. The installer wants to be sure the install process has 
completed before committing the system to boot from the internal HD.


I don't see how this would prevent the transfer of boot record, kernel, 
command.com and a basic config.sys,bat (and a basic FREEDOS\BIN 
folder). If someone at this point chose to format the C: drive, I doubt 
that there is any reason NOT to make this drive bootable (and at least 
baseline workable, in case of an unexpected abortion of the install 
process). That doesn't mean that the installer has to reboot at that 
point, so the boot order of the system for example should not be an issue...


Ralf



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[Freedos-user] DMA management?

[Michał Dec]

Hello,

Is there any way to manage DMA channel assignments? My setup relies on 
Yamaha YMF724F for sound, due to there being no ISA slots to get a 
proper sound card. Unfortunately, there's no way to have the card work 
with DMA 1 or 3. It's stuck on DMA 0 and this is wrong in so many 
ways... I've researched this issue and turns out that DMA 0 was 
historically reserved for DRAM controllers, then it was a daisy-chain 
linking 8-bit and 16-bit DMA controllers. Most games I have support 
sound cards on DMA 0, but some have a more conservative design and won't 
budge. Even editing the config files to seemingly force this change will 
yield no result.


Best regards,

Michał



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Re: [Freedos-user] 1.3RC3 Installation woes (was Re: FDISK 1.3.3)

[Jerome Shidel]

> On Mar 4, 2021, at 2:56 PM, Ralf Quint  wrote:
> 
> [..]
> Yes, I can fix this problem myself, that is not the issue. It is that this 
> all seems to trip potential new users right at the start.

From what I recall (and I could be wrong), the vast majority of “new” users are 
not running on bare metal. Mostly it get’s installed
into a virtual machine. That isn’t to say it is not a problem. Just saying it 
isn’t how most users run FreeDOS.
> I would also wondering why the C: drive, though offered to be formatted, is 
> at the same time not "SYStemized", including a baseline config.sys and 
> autoexec.bat as well as a base FREEDOS folder before starting FDIMPLES to 
> install further packages. To me, this seems to be the next logical step (and 
> what I just did manually to move on on this system)...
> 
Not sure what you mean. 

If you are referring to why the kernel and the shell are not transferred 
automatically to drive C: when the disk is formatted, there are several 
reasons. Mostly, those are:

— some systems won’t boot into FreeDOS after a simple SYS. Sometimes more work 
is required to make that happen. All of it is consolidated into a single par of 
the installer to aid in simplifying the code some.

— the installer can run in advanced mode. when it does, that step is optional. 
A user could for example in advanced mode, install just the FreeDOS binaries 
onto PC/MS-DOS. 

— most systems are (including VMs) are configured to boot the HD before the CD. 
The installer wants to be sure the install process has completed before 
committing the system to boot from the internal HD. 
> Ralf
> 
:-)

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[Freedos-user] Invalid opcode - where do I even begin?

[Michał Dec]

Hello,

I've run some software on Pentium 3 Tualatin S on FreeDOS and it's 
getting an invalid opcode error. The error precisely says "Invalid 
opcode at ..." where ... is a bunch of 16 bit variables. Saying "at" is 
really misleading and doesn't make any sense, since such a high address 
like let's say 628a  3002 206f 2b43 202b 202d 6f43 7970 6972 6867 
2074 3931 is well within the realm of ZFS storage, not protected mode 
address space :D


If anyone's wondering, the offending software is Contra and Quake 1.08 
(software renderer). For what it's worth, the above hex string is 
exactly what Quake blurted out.


Where do I even begin with understanding this message? Is this a series 
of opcodes the CPU failed to run, or is this an address, or is it 
something else? I could recompile Quake, but Contra will probably 
require me to patch the binary with the help of reverse engineering tools.


Best regards,

Michał



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Re: [Freedos-user] 1.3RC3 Installation woes (was Re: FDISK 1.3.3)

[Ralf Quint]

On 3/4/2021 11:20 AM, tom ehlert wrote:

ERROR: Unable to initialize CD-ROM drive
after trying to load UDVD2 (3-05-2015).

of course it would be cool to read the error message form UDVD2
itself, otherwise "ERROR:bla" is not very helpful ;<<<


Well, I doubt that there is anything else useful in the output

UDVD2, 3-05-2015. CD/DVD name is FDCD0001.
Nothing to use. UDVD2 not loaded!
Driver not loaded
No drives assigned.
3 drive(s) available.

ERROR: Unable to initialize CD-ROM drive.



a) UDVD2 works on  99+% of existing machines, otherwise we
would know it. we simply don't know if OAKCDROM.SYS also works on 99+%
of machines, or - more impotantly - on more machines then UDVD2
I have yet to see a machine with a standard ATAPI (not one of those 
early Creative sound card proprietary ones) that would NOT work with 
OAKCDROM.SYS! Same with LG's GSCDROM.SYS.


b) being open source, Jack or others could at least in theory fix
UDVD2. probably unfeasable for OAKCDROM (should it fail)
Well, who is the author of it anyway? There is not a single line in 
either the (.asm) source code nor in the documentation that mentioned 
author nor license...

c) running
DEVLOAD OAKCDROM.SYS  some arguments
should fix your problems
Yes, I can fix this problem myself, that is not the issue. It is that 
this all seems to trip potential new users right at the start.


I would also wondering why the C: drive, though offered to be formatted, 
is at the same time not "SYStemized", including a baseline config.sys 
and autoexec.bat as well as a base FREEDOS folder before starting 
FDIMPLES to install further packages. To me, this seems to be the next 
logical step (and what I just did manually to move on on this system)...


Ralf




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Re: [Freedos-user] 1.3RC3 Installation woes (was Re: FDISK 1.3.3)

[tom ehlert]

> ERROR: Unable to initialize CD-ROM drive

> after trying to load UDVD2 (3-05-2015).

of course it would be cool to read the error message form UDVD2
itself, otherwise "ERROR:bla" is not very helpful ;<<<


> This is on a Dell Latitude, so not just some obscure 3rd party Chinese
> knock-off... :(

> And I think this is a prime example where we are shooting ourselves in
> the foot by being so insistent on using OSS stuff, instead of using 
> something like OAKCDROM.SYS, which is freely available (though not Open
> Source) for decades and JUST WORKS!

a) UDVD2 works on  99+% of existing machines, otherwise we
would know it. we simply don't know if OAKCDROM.SYS also works on 99+%
of machines, or - more impotantly - on more machines then UDVD2

b) being open source, Jack or others could at least in theory fix
UDVD2. probably unfeasable for OAKCDROM (should it fail)

c) running
   DEVLOAD OAKCDROM.SYS  some arguments
   should fix your problems


d) unfortunately errorprocessing in config.sys is not possible.
   it still might be possible to

   devload UDVD2.SYS blablabla
   if exist CDROM\NUL goto success
   devload OAKCDROM.SYS blablabla
   if exist CDROM\NUL goto success
   echo SORRY


> But beside this issue, please don't ignore my suggestion to replace the
> currently used FDISK 1.2.1 with the latest 1.3.4 ASAP...
+1

Tom



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Re: [Freedos-user] FDISK 1.3.3

[Ralf Quint]

On 3/4/2021 5:21 AM, Eric Auer wrote:

Hi Jerome,

just wondering, does your ISO use the newest UDVD2 driver
from http://mercurycoding.com/downloads.html#DOS ? Note
that the readme in those downloads might need some double-
checking, but as far as I remember, the binaries are fresh.


All the same, there is no "newest". The binary is all the same, only 
obscure changes to the fluff around it...


Ralf



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Re: [Freedos-user] num lock

[Ray Davison]

Eric Auer wrote:



Did you try to google for "freedos numlock"?


... duckduckgo does not find that page.


Better get a barge pole, because DuckDuckNoGo won't find jack **t...


To join that little off-topic: Is there ANY search
engine remaining which RESPECTS my search keywords?


This is at the top of Bing > "freedos numlock".  And there are more 
FreeDOS hits.


https://sourceforge.net/projects/active-caps-num-lock/

Ray



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Re: [Freedos-user] 1.3RC3 Installation woes (was Re: FDISK 1.3.3)

[Ralf Quint]

Sorry for a late reply, but I am off and on busy with RL stuff right 
now, so I have only a few minutes here and there...


When actually trying to use the LiveCD feature, the boot process craps 
out with

ERROR: Unable to initialize CD-ROM drive

after trying to load UDVD2 (3-05-2015).

This is on a Dell Latitude, so not just some obscure 3rd party Chinese 
knock-off... :(


And I think this is a prime example where we are shooting ourselves in 
the foot by being so insistent on using OSS stuff, instead of using 
something like OAKCDROM.SYS, which is freely available (though not Open 
Source) for decades and JUST WORKS!


But beside this issue, please don't ignore my suggestion to replace the 
currently used FDISK 1.2.1 with the latest 1.3.4 ASAP...



thanks,

Ralf



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[Freedos-user] FreeDOS and audio CDs

[Michał Dec]

Hello everyone,

I have this peculiar setup:

Lite-On LTR-52327S

Yamaha YMF724F

They're connected together with a CD cable. I've found that software 
that normally plays a CDDA soundtrack when it finds a CD with such 
tracks, just doesn't do it. The software I have:


GTA1

Redneck Rampage

Quake

I can also test with Rayman, but I really fear this game in particular 
as it's known to cause severe filesystem damage when it doesn't get what 
it wants.


The CDROM is initialized with SHSUCDX 3.07 with the FDC0001 driver and 
there's just no audio whatsoever. Redneck Rampage gives me a better idea 
by greying out its integrated 8-track player - a give-away sign that no 
CDDA tracks have been detected at all.


Has anyone run into this issue? I'm running on FreeDOS 1.2.

Best regards,

Michał



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Re: [Freedos-user] FDISK 1.3.3

[Jerome Shidel]

Hi Eric,

> On Mar 4, 2021, at 8:50 AM, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
>> I just wish we had some OSS CD/DVD driver alternatives. 
> 
> But our drivers already are OSS?
> 
> Eric

I should have been more clear. I know that the drivers we have are OSS.
But, I’d like to see some additional driver choices for the CD-ROM support.

Now, this is interesting… While doing some tests on my 486, I discovered that
UDVD2 is now working with that DVD drive. That machine has a
3COM 3C509B NIC (the other machine has a 3C905B… confusing) and has
had all it packages updated directly from the repository. That leaves me to 
wonder if UDVD2 now has support for it.  Or, it might have been some issue 
other than that driver. Or, maybe with me messing around with jumpers on the 
VLB card I fixed a conflict. No idea. That machine was in a closet for decades. 
It could have the hardware being slow to wake back up. After all, it boots and 
runs fine. But when docked, I can’t reboot it without leaving it off for a 
while. 
It could be a thermal issue. But as long as I don’t shut it off or reboot it, 
it will 
run fine indefinitely. Could be a config conflict, and must wait for all the 
caps 
to drain. IDK and really don’t feel like taking the time to figure it out.

:-)

Jerome

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Re: [Freedos-user] Command line

[Jim Hall]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 10:05 AM Jose Senna  wrote:
>
>  Did anyone else look at this ?
>   https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00263-0
>  Command line is still (much) alive.
>
>


Interesting article, thanks for sharing. This article is geared for
Unix (Linux or Mac) but the concepts apply to FreeDOS. You can still
do a lot at the command line.

Like others, this article reminds me of using the Unix command line.
And it reminds me of an article I wrote for CloudSavvyIT Linux some
months ago, about how to check spelling "the old school" Unix way:

https://www.cloudsavvyit.com/5439/how-to-check-spelling-the-old-school-unix-way/

$cat document | tr A-Z a-z | tr -d ',.:;()?!' | tr ' ' '\n' | sort |
uniq | comm -2 -3 - words


That Unix command line converts a text file into lowercase, then
deletes all punctuation and special characters, splits lines at
spaces, sorts the result, looks for unique words .. then compares that
list of words to the system dictionary (called "words"). The command
outputs a list of misspelled words (words that appear in the original
document that do not appear in the system dictionary).


Jim


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Re: [Freedos-user] Command line

[dmccunney]

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 11:05 AM Jose Senna  wrote:
>
>  Did anyone else look at this ?
>   https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00263-0
>  Command line is still (much) alive.

Those who think it isn't need to get out more.

I had a Unix system at home before I got an XT clone running MSDOS. (I
still have it.)  Mine was an early machine intended to be a single
user Unix workstation.  The bigger ones I administered for a living
were multi-user systems that assumed you would access them remotely,
and would log in as a terminal to a command line.  Mine had a
well-crafted GUI, but I still used a command line for things that
weren't well suited to a GUI.

These days, I run Win10 Pro on my desktop, but installed an open
source tabbed console emulator called ConEmu, that lets me have
multiple command lines in a single tabbed interface, and what is on
those command lines may differ.  Here, the default if it's installed
is JPSoftware's TCC-LE, a freeware limited version of their commercial
Take Command GUI interface.  TCC-LE looks an  awful lot like (and its
design is based on) the popular 4DOS command.com replacement for DOS
PCs.  Bit I can also run MS's PowerShell, Windows CMD-EXE, and Win32
ports of things like the *nix bash and zsh shells, or DOS character
mode applications run using the vDOS Plus fork of the popular DOS
emulator designed to let you run old DOS games on things that aren't
MSDOS PCs.  (A have a few DOS programs on an Android tablet using an
Android port of DOSbox.)

Most of what current users do is best done through a GUI, but there
are things like commands run in pipelines that need a command line to
be able to do that.Most folks simply don't need a command line, but
you can get one if you do.

Another issue is the shift to mobile devices for computing.  While you
can *get* a command line on something like a smartphone or tablet,
trying to use it can be actively painful if you don't have an external
keyboard you can attach.
__
Dennis


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Re: [Freedos-user] Command line

[Eric Auer]

>  Did anyone else look at this ?
>   https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00263-0
>  Command line is still (much) alive.

"Five reasons why researchers should learn to love the command line
The text interface is intimidating, but can save researchers from
mundane computing tasks. Just be sure you know what you’re doing."

Reminds me of when we once needed some statistical
analysis and the SPSS package produced 3 pages of
comments for every datasets :-p We then manually
put the formula into a generic maths programming
language to get only the actual results. Much later,
I have seen a presentation about R which actually
seems to have a syntax like compact(yourtest(data))
which would combine the best of both worlds? :-)

Cheers, Eric



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[Freedos-user] Command line

[Jose Senna]

 Did anyone else look at this ?
  https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00263-0
 Command line is still (much) alive.



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Re: [Freedos-user] FDISK 1.3.3

[Eric Auer]

> I just wish we had some OSS CD/DVD driver alternatives. 

But our drivers already are OSS?

Eric


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Re: [Freedos-user] FDISK 1.3.3

[Jerome Shidel]

> On Mar 4, 2021, at 8:24 AM, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Jerome,
> 
> just wondering, does your ISO use the newest UDVD2 driver
> from http://mercurycoding.com/downloads.html#DOS ? Note
> that the readme in those downloads might need some double-
> checking, but as far as I remember, the binaries are fresh.

Not at my computer right now. Don’t know off-hand. However, the latest version 
is up on the repo. Might just be able to check RC3 release date and compare it 
to page time on repo. Anyway, release is built by pulling packages from the 
repo. So, it will automatically included on the next install media. 

> 
> Note that when you BOOT FROM VIRTUAL FLOPPY, you do NOT
> need UDVD2! Instead, you can and probably should provide
> the option to use the ELTORITO.SYS driver which uses BIOS
> assisted CD/DVD access :-) That only works for the CD/DVD
> from which you have just booted, so the system installed
> on C: afterwards cannot use the El Torito driver.
> 
> Cheers, Eric

I’ll probably try doing some experimenting with that driver. Maybe later today. 
That long email gave me brain drain. :)

I just wish we had some OSS CD/DVD driver alternatives. 

:-)

Jerome 




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Re: [Freedos-user] FDISK 1.3.3

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jerome,

just wondering, does your ISO use the newest UDVD2 driver
from http://mercurycoding.com/downloads.html#DOS ? Note
that the readme in those downloads might need some double-
checking, but as far as I remember, the binaries are fresh.

Note that when you BOOT FROM VIRTUAL FLOPPY, you do NOT
need UDVD2! Instead, you can and probably should provide
the option to use the ELTORITO.SYS driver which uses BIOS
assisted CD/DVD access :-) That only works for the CD/DVD
from which you have just booted, so the system installed
on C: afterwards cannot use the El Torito driver.

Cheers, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] FDISK 1.3.3

[Jerome Shidel]

Hi Ralf, 

I’m sorry to hear you are having problems installing 1.3-RC3.

Comparing 1.2-FINAL to 1.3-RC3, very little has changed with the CD boot 
process or installer. Most of the changes between those versions are the 
packages that get installed and the addition of a Live environment on the 
LiveCD. There have only been a few “tweaks” to the actual installer. 

Based on the information you have provided, the CD/DVD driver (UDVD2.SYS) was 
unable to provide support for your CD/DVD drive during the boot process. 
Although the version of UDVD2 that is provided has been updated since the 
previous FreeDOS release, I don’t think the update to the driver is causing the 
issue.

A little information on the boot discs and installer. (Greatly simplified)

The installer itself is identical across all media (except the Floppy only 
edition). The primary differences in the media are the BOOT process and some 
minor variations in the config files (FDAUTO.BAT & FDCONFIG.SYS) and utilities. 

The Legacy CD version uses the old EL TORITO specification. The BIOS simply 
loads a floppy image from the CD and uses that image to emulate a floppy disk 
to boot. The emulated floppy then boots FreeDOS and loads drivers to support 
access to the remainder of the CD-ROM. The Normal / LiveCD does something 
similar. However, it uses SYSLINUX / MEMDISK to emulate the floppy disk. This 
is why you see some files but no packages.

Regardless of which method or disc is used to boot, a minimal version of 
FreeDOS is provided. That minimal version contains some drivers, utilities and 
programs. That set of programs provides the user with at least the ability to 
partition and format the hard drive then run the installer. Space on the 
emulated floppy is precious and there are only a handful of extra things that 
are not required  to support the install process are provided on it.

The installer is a large and fairly complex set of batch file logic.  At 
startup, the “system” is in an unknown state with unknown capabilities and 
nearly nothing is known by the installer. Through batch logic and external 
utilities it attempts to remedy the situation. It figures out what drive 
contains the installer and attempts to create a RAM disk. If a RAM disk is 
successfully created, the installer gets a little smarter with the ability to 
perform I/O redirection. Otherwise, it falls back to "really dumb" mode until a 
hard drive is formatted and temporary space can be provided by that drive. 
However even with out I/O redirection, step by step, the installer gets to a 
“known” state — eventually.

This is why on first boot, you are prompted for your choice of language. Then, 
asked of you wish to partition the drive. But on second boot, after being asked 
for your language, it skips partitioning. And when a previous version is 
installed and it can run in less-dumb mode, it may be able to import your 
language choice then skip straight to install after the welcome screen. 

At this point in time, I can’t really justify the added overhead (and disk 
space required) to attempt to determine if it can locate the install packages 
before the system is in a “known” state and has the ability to perform I/O 
redirection. 

Once a hard drive is partitioned and formatted, I/O redirection is guaranteed 
and everything becomes much simpler and streamlined. A search for the install 
packages is then performed. If it is unable to locate them, the installer is 
pretty much out of options. As a last resort, it offers to reboot the system. 
There is only a very very very slim chance a reboot will help.  

Without access to the DATA region of the CD, none of the FreeDOS packages can 
be found by the installer or other programs like FDIMPLES. They just aren’t 
available. 

Now back to problem of installing 1.3-RC3.

You are not alone. In my personal opinion, the three biggest problems FreeDOS 
faces are UEFI only systems, sound drivers (like AC97) and more universal 
CD/DVD support. Networking is also an issue. But, it’s more of a “really want” 
and not a “really need” kind of problem.

I face all of these in my own home.

I’ve got a cool little Intel Compute Stick that is x86 compatible that I’d love 
to run FreeDOS on. However, it is UEFI only. :-(

My old Pentium Pro has a slightly flakey Creative Labs DVD drive. Sometimes I 
need to reboot a couple times to get it to read discs. Also, that drive 
occasionally stops working without reason. And frequently, only portions of a 
disc are readable with it. Otherwise, that machine boots the LiveCD and fully 
supports the Live Environment and works like a champ. (still need to try and 
get networking and sound functional on it).

On the other hand, my 486DX2-66 notebook (plus VLB docking station) does not 
support booting from any CD/DVD. To make matters worse, the TDK DVD drive in 
the docking station is not supported by the CD/DVD driver on the install media. 
I installed FreeDOS via the Floppy only edition.