Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS website (rants)

[TJ Edmister]

On Fri, 15 Jul 2016 21:08:03 -0400, Rugxulo  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Jose Antonio Senna
>  wrote:
>>
>>   This said, I also admit browsing from DOS
>>  is going to be less and less practical.
>>  Lynx 2.8.5 supports HTTPS (and is the only
>>  tried DOS browser which does),
>
> I'm pretty sure Links2 (non-lite version) can support HTTPS also.
>
> But if you try Links2 and it doesn't work well for you, I'm pretty
> sure the developer (mikulas) would still accept your feedback. He
> seems open to suggestions.
>
>>   It shall be possible to write a browser "for DOS"
>>  from scratch (possibly using only expanded
>>  memory, so it may run even in a 8088, albeit
>>  a fast one), but it will take so much skilled
>>  effort that nobody is going to do it.
>
> Honestly, I'd err more on the side of "nobody has those skills
> anymore" rather than pretending "if only we had more xyz" (money,
> developers, time, etc).

It's not a lack of skills. DOS is lacking third party drivers that exist  
for modern OSs. However, something could still be written that ran on a  
limited selection of hardware. DOS is lacking various libraries. However,  
these libraries are still maintained, people know how they work, they  
could be reimplemented. Anything that can be developed for Windows can be  
developed for DOS, even if you have to reimplement Windows itself to get  
there (although that would be the worse case scenario...)

The problem is what it means to be "a web browser." It's 25 years of  
haphazard evolutionary design-by-commitee squared. An unmitigated  
disaster. Nobody in their right mind would try to support all this crap  
that never should have been in the first place. This is why there are very  
few "fully-featured" browsers available for ANY OS that don't borrow a ton  
of code from something else.

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS website (rants)

[Corbin Davenport]

I mostly agree with the sentiments towards HTML5 here. One of my biggest
gripes is that websites are now attempting to emulate the appearance and
functionality of native apps with useless animations and twenty JavaScript
libraries that make my Core i5 machine slow.

But I think this is just the same problem websites have had for ages -
remember all those websites with an empty HTML page and one big Flash
object for everything? Same bad design philosophy, different era. And it
goes without saying that HTML-based sites degrade for text-based browers a
lot more gracefully than Flash-based sites (aka not at all).

But one of the plus sides of the mobile web browser revolution that started
with the iPhone was full-featured mobile site. I can still use the internet
semi-usably on my old iMac G4 just by forcing my browser to load mobile
sites instead :)

Corbin 

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 9:08 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Jose Antonio Senna
>  wrote:
> >
> >   This said, I also admit browsing from DOS
> >  is going to be less and less practical.
> >  Lynx 2.8.5 supports HTTPS (and is the only
> >  tried DOS browser which does),
>
> I'm pretty sure Links2 (non-lite version) can support HTTPS also.
>
> But if you try Links2 and it doesn't work well for you, I'm pretty
> sure the developer (mikulas) would still accept your feedback. He
> seems open to suggestions.
>
> >   It shall be possible to write a browser "for DOS"
> >  from scratch (possibly using only expanded
> >  memory, so it may run even in a 8088, albeit
> >  a fast one), but it will take so much skilled
> >  effort that nobody is going to do it.
>
> Honestly, I'd err more on the side of "nobody has those skills
> anymore" rather than pretending "if only we had more xyz" (money,
> developers, time, etc).
>
>
> --
> What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and
> traffic
> patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols
> are
> consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow,
> J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity
> planning
> reports.http://sdm.link/zohodev2dev
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS website (rants)

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 7:32 PM, Jose Antonio Senna
 wrote:
>
>   This said, I also admit browsing from DOS
>  is going to be less and less practical.
>  Lynx 2.8.5 supports HTTPS (and is the only
>  tried DOS browser which does),

I'm pretty sure Links2 (non-lite version) can support HTTPS also.

But if you try Links2 and it doesn't work well for you, I'm pretty
sure the developer (mikulas) would still accept your feedback. He
seems open to suggestions.

>   It shall be possible to write a browser "for DOS"
>  from scratch (possibly using only expanded
>  memory, so it may run even in a 8088, albeit
>  a fast one), but it will take so much skilled
>  effort that nobody is going to do it.

Honestly, I'd err more on the side of "nobody has those skills
anymore" rather than pretending "if only we had more xyz" (money,
developers, time, etc).

--
What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic
patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are 
consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow, 
J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity planning
reports.http://sdm.link/zohodev2dev
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS website (rants)

[Dale E Sterner]

My bank was planning to swithch to html 5.
I told them that if I located a bank using html 4
that I would close my accounts and move to that
bank. They are still using html 4.
If everybody did that maybe this constant
upgrade crap would stop.

cheers
DS



On Sat, 16 Jul 16 00:32:09 + =?UTF-8?B?Sm9zZSBBbnRvbmlvIFNlbm5h?=
 writes:
>   On July 15 Rugxulo said:
> 
>  > Let's not pretend that it's really about DOS. 
>  > It's more about ultra-modern advancements 
>  > (which personally I think we can live without, 
>  > but nobody agrees with me).
> 
>   I,at least, agree.
>   Almost all the  "enhancements" in web pages
>  are just gimmicks to force use of the latest 
>  browsers, and offer no advantage to the user, 
>  whether on information, ease of use, or security, 
>  over plain HTML4.
> 
>   This said, I also admit browsing from DOS 
>  is going to be less and less practical. 
>  Lynx 2.8.5 supports HTTPS (and is the only 
>  tried DOS browser which does), but I cannot
>  access Wikipedia with it, because the
>  algorithms they use (or so they said).  
>  Not that they care.
>   Newer versions of Lynx may have wider
>  HTTPS capabilities, but they are really 
>  *nix programs, depending on so much extra 
>  code that they shall probably never run 
>  in a 386.
>   
>   It shall be possible to write a browser "for DOS" 
>  from scratch (possibly using only expanded 
>  memory, so it may run even in a 8088, albeit 
>  a fast one), but it will take so much skilled 
>  effort that nobody is going to do it.
> 
>  JAS
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
-
-
> What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and 
> traffic
> patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and 
> protocols are 
> consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for 
> NetFlow, 
> J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using 
> capacity planning
> reports.http://sdm.link/zohodev2dev
> ___
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> 


**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***



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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS website (rants)

[Ralf Quint]

On 7/15/2016 5:32 PM, Jose Antonio Senna wrote:
>This said, I also admit browsing from DOS
>   is going to be less and less practical.
>   Lynx 2.8.5 supports HTTPS (and is the only
>   tried DOS browser which does), but I cannot
>   access Wikipedia with it, because the
>   algorithms they use (or so they said).
>   Not that they care.
>Newer versions of Lynx may have wider
>   HTTPS capabilities, but they are really
>   *nix programs, depending on so much extra
>   code that they shall probably never run
>   in a 386.
https is only one issue, the general use/switch to HTML5 with all the 
multi-media and forms features (negating the need to have flash for a 
lot of things) is probably a much bigger hurdle.
>
>It shall be possible to write a browser "for DOS"
>   from scratch (possibly using only expanded
>   memory, so it may run even in a 8088, albeit
>   a fast one), but it will take so much skilled
>   effort that nobody is going to do it.
Good luck with that. It seems these days nobody can actually program 
anything for DOS anymore.

As much as I like DOS and I think it can still be very useful for 
example in embedded use, like on the Intel Quark based IoT boards, 
(general) web browsing on DOS is just nonsense. Just use Linux for that 
if you do  not want to use Windows and don't want to encumber yourself 
with macOS (fka OS X) either...

Ralf

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consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow, 
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reports.http://sdm.link/zohodev2dev
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