Re: [Freedos-user] Freedos 1.3 RC2...
Hi, On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 5:46 PM Eric Auer wrote: > > what are the pros and cons of Links2, Dillo, Dillo Plus? Links2 is much newer, so presumably (main version, not "lite") has better SSL and graphics mode support. Probably much faster, too. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Freedos 1.3 RC2...
Hi :-) Rugxulo: what are the pros and cons of Links2, Dillo, Dillo Plus? > DOSLFN [TSR] is probably your best bet (although there are other > alternatives). But LFNs don't work by default (except for DJGPP > stuff), so not everything supports it. Michael and others: For which tools would you like to have support? I think DIR with LFN already is nice, as are some other FreeCOM functions. Not sure about ZIP / UNZIP. Imagine some old game, would it make a difference whether you can say (the game does not really exist) bunnyhop "c:\forest level\" or whether you are forced to either give the level directory a short file name or run the game as bunnyhop c:\fores~1\ instead? I could imagine some TSR automatically handling cases like the latter by having a list what understands LFN and what not and translating options for the latter. >> If all the filesystem tools work with Fat32, >> that would be a massive improvement. Which filesystem tools do you have in mind? And which ones do not yet support FAT32? About the graphics: VGA BIOS often only offers 4:3 VESA modes, but a graphical browser should at least support those. And maybe some BIOS tuning TSR could be used to add higher resolution modes. Such TSR already exist, but I am not informed whether any of them like newer cards. > If VESA 2.0 supports it, it could be done. Try SVGAtextmode > (carefully), at least for text, and see what happens. Actually even MODE has some very limited support for some more safe higher resolution text modes. More exotic tricks are deliberately left to other tools. When things fail, you always have that reset button to reach out for ;-) Or if none exists, the three-second-power-button-press. Eric ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Freedos 1.3 RC2...
Hi, On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 6:44 AM wrote: > > I found a free packet driver and I'm testing both gopherus and Dillo. Very > nice programs. FreeDOS includes some others, but I forget the full list. There's quite a lot out there in the wild (maybe too much for us few volunteers!). If only * http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/repos/pkg-html/group-net.html That Curl is hopelessly outdated, and I haven't found a copy of newest yet (Mik's server is always down). I did privately mirror 7.64, though, need to vet it one of these days (too much to do): * https://sites.google.com/site/rugxulo/curlexe.zip?attredirects=0 Here's Curl 7.64 and Wget (I forget what version, but it's newer than FD package), with full sources (20 MB??): * https://sites.google.com/site/rugxulo/curlwget.zip?attredirects=0 You know, Curl officially points to Mik's server (dunno why, it's always down)! We should really host it on iBiblio for FreeDOS, but I've not struggled to rebuild it for us because it's probably a pain in the neck (like most things). I almost need to assist Jim in a blog or two to show exactly the hurdles we have to jump through just to support such things. (No, I've not emailed them, nor joined their Curl mailing lists. Also, news://comp.os.msdos.djgpp is usually fairly low volume, they're too busy with other things. Sorry, it's just harder than it sounds to rebuild stuff, even when it shouldn't be.) * https://curl.haxx.se/download.html "DOS 7.68.0 binary Michael Kostylev" * http://mik.dyndns.pro/dos-stuff/bin/ I recommend Links2 over Dillo (hmmm, even there we only have a 2.19 "package" while 2.20 is latest DJGPP binary): * http://links.twibright.com/download/binaries/dos/ > Would be nice to be able to raise the resolution for Dillo. I think I'm > limited to 640x480 vga. > > Dillo doesn't seem to work with my rainloop server ;-( That is Georg's port of Dillo, right? * https://sourceforge.net/projects/fltk-dos/files/Applications/Binary%20versions%20of%20FLTK%20applications/ * https://code.google.com/archive/p/nanox-microwindows-nxlib-fltk-for-dos/downloads Not Dillo-Plus? Even though they shared some code?? Dillo-Plus is probably too old, but maybe you could try that, too: * http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/board_entry.php?id=13346#p13346 * http://dplus-browser.sourceforge.net/ > I don't think long file names are supported out of the box, which would be > nice to have since many Fat32 volumes are created under Windows > and other systems and they have long filenames. Recall that the support is > spotty at best historically. DOSLFN [TSR] is probably your best bet (although there are other alternatives). But LFNs don't work by default (except for DJGPP stuff), so not everything supports it. If you meant native kernel support, we all wish, but that's too much for too few volunteers. Maybe "one day"! > If all the filesystem tools work with Fat32, that would be a massive > improvement. That's a different ball of wax and not a quick fix. Some tools work (e.g. DOSFSCK for FAT32/LFN) but others still don't. We don't have a lot of developers or volunteers. > My graphics card on the EVOC is an Intel Extreme and is capable of driving my > screen to 1920x1080 resolution. > This resolution isn't a dos era resolution for certain, but it would be nice > to be able to run at the higher resolution. If VESA 2.0 supports it, it could be done. Try SVGAtextmode (carefully), at least for text, and see what happens. > I want to test Freedos as a replacement for MSDOS 6.22 in an embedded system. > For two reasons I want to do this: > 1) Freedos is not encumbered by licensing restrictions like MS-DOS is. The whole point of FD is to be "free/libre" (as much as possible), but some people are (too) stubborn or just too busy, so we're only partially there. I'm no engineer, so my skills are limited. Still, I try (it's fun). :-) > 2) Freedos is actively supported and works better on modern hardware than > MS-DOS. "Active" might be a stretch, but some people are still diligent in fixing things. "Modern" is an even bigger stretch. FreeDOS does no miracles, but some few things barely work. (Not trying to be pessimistic, it's just ultra complicated. I heavily appreciate FreeDOS for what it does. I wish I could do more, but even when I know what to do, some things are just extremely tedious and time-consuming. "Modern??? Just use Linux [DOSEMU2 + FreeDOS]!!") ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Freedos 1.3 RC2...
Hi, On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 7:41 AM Eric Auer wrote: > > > One request, MS-DOS 6.22 has a tool called MSD. I like that the tool > > shows resources and memory and other useful debugging information. > > If someone can clone that clone that tool I'd be very appreciative. > > https://www.uwe-sieber.de/util.html recommends "informer" and "nssi" I don't know if it's been updated lately, but for vintage computers, NSSI (2010?) is pretty good. * https://www.navsoft.cz/products.htm * https://www.sac.sk/download/utildiag/nssi060.zip (Man, have we jumped the shark in modern computers! Everything is way overcomplicated! But it's a great time to be alive in tech.) ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Freedos 1.3 RC2...
Hi Michael, > One request, MS-DOS 6.22 has a tool called MSD. I like that the tool > shows resources and memory and other useful debugging information. > If someone can clone that clone that tool I'd be very appreciative. I think MSD had very mixed features, which specifically do you want? Quarterdeck Manifest (MFT) is freeware now, I believe? How about HWiNFO for DOS? https://www.hwinfo.com/download/ https://www.uwe-sieber.de/util.html recommends "informer" and "nssi" Regards, Eric ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
[Freedos-user] Freedos 1.3 RC2...
I found a free packet driver and I'm testing both gopherus and Dillo. Very nice programs. Would be nice to be able to raise the resolution for Dillo. I think I'm limited to 640x480 vga. Dillo doesn't seem to work with my rainloop server ;-( I can report that fdnpkg works though! I don't think long file names are supported out of the box, which would be nice to have since many Fat32 volumes are created under Windows and other systems and they have long filenames. Recall that the support is spotty at best historically. If all the filesystem tools work with Fat32, that would be a massive improvement. My graphics card on the EVOC is an Intel Extreme and is capable of driving my screen to 1920x1080 resolution. This resolution isn't a dos era resolution for certain, but it would be nice to be able to run at the higher resolution. I want to test Freedos as a replacement for MSDOS 6.22 in an embedded system. For two reasons I want to do this: 1) Freedos is not encumbered by licensing restrictions like MS-DOS is. 2) Freedos is actively supported and works better on modern hardware than MS-DOS. One request, MS-DOS 6.22 has a tool called MSD. I like that the tool shows resources and memory and other useful debugging information. If someone can clone that clone that tool I'd be very appreciative. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.3 RC2 is available for download
Hi Jerome, > Instead of copying the ISO, they could just copy the package > directories directly to the HDD. True, but not everybody who lacks optical drives has the infrastructure to extract files from ISOs or diskimages installed. Of course some readme / howto would help :-) > But off the top of my head as a rough guide, without > sources the installed BASE is around 12MB and FULL is > somewhere around 250MB. Installing FULL with sources > requires nearly 500MB. Installing all the EXTRAS > requires an additional 500 or 700MB. The size of extras is impressive :-o > some systems boot the USB media in a read-only mode. While unexpected, it at least is sort of a safety thing... Regards, Eric ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.3 RC2 is available for download
Hi Eric, > Hi Jerome, thanks for your answers! :-) > It would be cool if it included the drivers for that > and a readme. Only so much fits on a floppy. With the basic tools required to partition and format, run the installer and perform some essential recovery tasks. It is getting kind of cramped as it is. > Doing it automatically would be too > complicated, because you do not know what exactly > users would like to use as strategy, but I think it > is common that people are able to drop an ISO on a > FAT drive as part of the preparations for installing > a FreeDOS system on a computer without CD/DVD drive. Instead of copying the ISO, they could just copy the package directories directly to the HDD. To copy them correctly, the user just needs to make sure all of the required directories are present. In fact, they should be able to just XCOPY the entire contents of the CD to the HDD root directory. I used to have support in the installer (FDI) to also look for the package directory structure under a PACKAGES\ directory. I don’t think I have removed or broken support for that. I know FDIMPLES still supports it. After copying the packages, boot installer (FDI) from floppy. It will locate and use those packages to perform an installation. FDI does not permit installing FreeDOS to the same drive where the installer is running. This is mostly a design decision. There is no restriction on the location of the packages. > How about having the "lite" choice of packages pre-installed > in the "live" part of the CD / DVD, while having the "full" > set of packages zipped? It would make the download a bit > larger but use less RAMDISK space for actually using DOS? That is more or less how the new LiveCD is setup. Generally speaking, the new live CD functions like this… SYSLINUX/MEMDISK boots a floppy image on the CD. The floppy contains only the bare minimum programs to make the rest of this happen. This is roughly 1/2 the of that on the normal install boot floppy. The floppy loads some drivers and it does some platform detection prevent some compatibility issues. On most platforms, it will attempt to create a ram disk between 16MB and 384MB. If successful, it will extract a “LIVE” set of packages onto that drive. With less than 64MB of RAM the entire set will not be extracted and the user will be warned. After package extraction, the running system is reconfigured to use the RAM drive as the OS drive. In a system with 16MB of RAM or less, it will attempt to create a RAM drive between 1MB and 8MB to use for I/O redirection and temporary files. If that fails, it will switch RAM drivers and attempt to create one between 512K and 8MB for the same purpose. If it could not create a RAM drive 16MB or larger, it will switch over using the pre extracted BASE packages on the LiveCD for the OS. On some platforms (QEMU), it skips the initial RAM driver and falls back to the smaller RAM disk and driver. Thats an over simplification of the boot process. Far more happens. But, it should have covered your question. > >> In 1.2, the lite USB included both the BASE and FULL install package >> sets. However, It did not include all of the EXTRA and uninstalled >> packages that came on the big USB and CD media. > > So how large were BASE, FULL and EXTRA, respectively, both > in compressed and in installed form? And what are the top, > say, 5 largest FULL packages in 1.3, how much space would > be needed to install FULL when skipping those? I have not figured out the exact numbers. But off the top of my head as a rough guide, without sources the installed BASE is around 12MB and FULL is somewhere around 250MB. Installing FULL with sources requires nearly 500MB. Installing all the EXTRAS requires an additional 500 or 700MB. Maybe I’ll add some code to the build environment to automatically figure out those numbers. Possibly even have it embed them automatically in the README doc. > >> The USB images rely strictly on the BIOS to be able to use >> a attached USB drive to emulate an internal drive and boot >> them as a hard disk. > > I think there was some variation on how well BIOSes worked > with that? Some might work better with ZIP DRIVE geometry, > for example? Of course if you can use more LBA and less CHS > in the boot process and in DOS, things might be more stable > and exotic kernel and boot sector config options might help > with that, configurable via special SYS options ;-) It’s even worse than you mention. During the testing phase of 1.2, it was discovered that some systems boot the USB media in a read-only mode. Any attempt whatsoever to test for writability to the USB drive would result in loud beeps and sometimes the system would go completely insane. However, the majority of machines that could boot it just treated it like a regular internal drive. Ugh. > > Regards, Eric > :-) Jerome ___ Freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.3 RC2 is available for download
Hi Jerome, thanks for your answers! Of course it would be cool if a live USB image would be automatically treated correctly by virtual computers, but I do not know how much or little a VMDK is needed. Pity that boot BIOS bugs are so different that one needs at least two boot style images to cover the ISO domain! > The floppy will not emulate a CD-ROM drive and > mount an ISO as a disc. It would be cool if it included the drivers for that and a readme. Doing it automatically would be too complicated, because you do not know what exactly users would like to use as strategy, but I think it is common that people are able to drop an ISO on a FAT drive as part of the preparations for installing a FreeDOS system on a computer without CD/DVD drive. > At present, the floppy loads UDVD2 to be able to access > any present CD/DVD drives. The floppy is limited to supporting > drives that UDVD2 supports in it’s default configuration. While UDVD2 is versatile in drive support, I hope you also add UHDD for fast caching? This would of course also be good to have on the ISO and USB images :-) Users with different tastes can still use lbacache, cdrcache and tickle after installation if they like. > The installer program (FDI) is identical across all media > ... For a batch based program, FDI is fairly flexible :-) > To my knowledge, there has been no demand for a lite CD version. How about having the "lite" choice of packages pre-installed in the "live" part of the CD / DVD, while having the "full" set of packages zipped? It would make the download a bit larger but use less RAMDISK space for actually using DOS? > In 1.2, the lite USB included both the BASE and FULL install package > sets. However, It did not include all of the EXTRA and uninstalled > packages that came on the big USB and CD media. So how large were BASE, FULL and EXTRA, respectively, both in compressed and in installed form? And what are the top, say, 5 largest FULL packages in 1.3, how much space would be needed to install FULL when skipping those? > The USB images rely strictly on the BIOS to be able to use > a attached USB drive to emulate an internal drive and boot > them as a hard disk. I think there was some variation on how well BIOSes worked with that? Some might work better with ZIP DRIVE geometry, for example? Of course if you can use more LBA and less CHS in the boot process and in DOS, things might be more stable and exotic kernel and boot sector config options might help with that, configurable via special SYS options ;-) Regards, Eric ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.3 RC2 is available for download
Hi Eric, Some good questions in there. I know you already know most of the things I cover in this message. But, I felt I should simplify a lot of the details and go over it for those who may not know some of this stuff. > On Dec 9, 2019, at 7:42 PM, Eric Auer wrote: > > > Hi! > > Thanks for the announcements... I have some questions :-) > > If legacy avoids syslinux / memdisk, which computers can > boot from CD but can not use syslinux / memdisk? And which > computers can use syslinux / memdisk but can not boot from > el torito (did you mean boot floppy image?) bootable CD? All computers with BIOS support should be able to boot from a CD-ROM drive “SHOULD” be able to boot a disc that follows the original El Torito boot specification. The El Torito spec is ancient and most bootable discs have moved on to the more common practice of loading a binary image from the media and running it. The binary image method of booting has also been around a really long time. There is only a narrow window of real hardware that can boot the original El Torito spec and not a binary image. I speculate that since El Torito is not common for modern boot discs, it’s BIOS level support is rarely tested. So, it more or less comes down to this. On real hardware, the older the machine is the more likely support for the original El Torito specification is to function properly. On newer hardware and Virtual Machine platforms, it becomes increasingly more likely that it does not and the binary image will be required. > > Would it be useful to ship the ISOs with VMDK files, too? Why? Virtual Machines have direct support for using ISOs without the need for a VMDK file. Actually, I been thinking we should just drop the VMDK file from the USB images. It is far easier to just install from the CD ISO than use one of the VMDKs. Using one to the VMDKs, requires shuffling stuff around and other stuff. > Can the boot floppy either mount the ISO from a file or use > actual CD/DVD/... drives and if yes, which requirements have > to be met for which of the two options? If I understand you correctly…. No. The floppy will not emulate a CD-ROM drive and mount an ISO as a disc. Yes. At present, the floppy loads UDVD2 to be able to access any present CD/DVD drives. The floppy is limited to supporting drives that UDVD2 supports in it’s default configuration. The installer program (FDI) is identical across all media. There are some differences in the boot process in fdauto and fdconfig. And a couple options may be passed to the installer from the boot process. But, the FDI is the same. For a batch based program, FDI is fairly flexible and extensible. It can install FreeDOS from a variety of sources. Basically... When FDI reaches the “gathering some information” screen, it is locating the installation packages. These packages can be on the same drive as the installer or elsewhere. The first valid set of install packages it finds are used. Those packages could be on a CD-ROM, USB drive or local hard drive. > > Do the lite and full USB versions also have the "live" (no > install needed) functionality? Not at present. > Would a lite CD be useful or > is everybody happy with lite USB? To my knowledge, there has been no demand for a lite CD version. Don’t know if anyone is happy with the new lite USB. In 1.2, the lite USB included both the BASE and FULL install package sets. However, It did not include all of the EXTRA and uninstalled packages that came on the big USB and CD media. This is different in 1.3. With the dramatic increase in packages that are automatically installed during a FULL install, the space requirements for the FULL package set have greatly increased. This made including them on a lite USB version impractical. So starting with 1.3, only a the BASE install and related packages are provided on the lite USB. To preform a FULL install or have ready access to an EXTRA package, the full USB or CD media will be required. > Which boot style do the > USB downloads use, direct USB drive boot or rather again > something with memdisk and a Linux style loader for that? Neither. The USB images rely strictly on the BIOS to be able to use a attached USB drive to emulate an internal drive and boot them as a hard disk. > Regarding the size requirements, which filesystem type and > cluster sizes do those assume? I know it could be a bit > tricky to extrapolate those, but it would still be good > to know at least the FAT16 "bad" case (32k clusters) and > the FAT32 default case (4k clusters, drives 1/2 to 8 GB). > As FAT12 is only used for drives up to 16 MB (max cluster > size 4k) there is no need to consider that at the moment. Basically, they are just the defaults for the appropriate sizes. The release build process looks up settings defined in FDI to determine the capacity of the USB images. Currently, 32MB for lite and 1024MB for FULL. The build process then creates disk images and uses
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.3 RC2 is available for download
My reply is at the bottom. Please put your reply there too. On Mon, 9 Dec 2019, Jim Hall wrote: We are still moving toward the FreeDOS 1.3 release. FreeDOS 1.3 Release Candidate 2 is now available for download. Please help us test this new version! A big feature in FreeDOS 1.3 will be booting into a LiveCD version of FreeDOS. You can test this by downloading FD13-LiveCD.zip, which contains FD13LIVE.ISO. About the LiveCD, from the readme: This media is similar to the LegacyCD. However instead of relying on the BIOS floppy disk emulation, it uses SYSLINUX and MEMDISK to boot an emulated floppy disk. Along side support to perform a Plain and Full installation FreeDOS, this media is also able to run FreeDOS live from RAM or CD (depending on computer system and hardware) without installation to an internal hard disk drive. You can also download FreeDOS 1.3 RC2 in "Full" and "Lite" versions, and a "Legacy" CDROM version that is set up to let the CDROM boot on older hardware. Most users should try the LiveCD version. You can download the new FreeDOS 1.3 RC2 from the FreeDOS file archive at ibiblio: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.3/p reviews/1.3-rc2/ Thanks to Jerome for doing the hard work on the LiveCD! Jim Could we get Frotz 2.50 in there? http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.2/repos/pkg-html/frotz.html still lists version 2.43, which has a several memory allocation problems that were fixed in 2.50. It's available as an executable in http://ifarchive.org/if-archive/infocom/interpreters/frotz/frotz250.zip -- David Griffith d...@661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.3 RC2 is available for download
Hi! Thanks for the announcements... I have some questions :-) If legacy avoids syslinux / memdisk, which computers can boot from CD but can not use syslinux / memdisk? And which computers can use syslinux / memdisk but can not boot from el torito (did you mean boot floppy image?) bootable CD? Would it be useful to ship the ISOs with VMDK files, too? Can the boot floppy either mount the ISO from a file or use actual CD/DVD/... drives and if yes, which requirements have to be met for which of the two options? Do the lite and full USB versions also have the "live" (no install needed) functionality? Would a lite CD be useful or is everybody happy with lite USB? Which boot style do the USB downloads use, direct USB drive boot or rather again something with memdisk and a Linux style loader for that? Regarding the size requirements, which filesystem type and cluster sizes do those assume? I know it could be a bit tricky to extrapolate those, but it would still be good to know at least the FAT16 "bad" case (32k clusters) and the FAT32 default case (4k clusters, drives 1/2 to 8 GB). As FAT12 is only used for drives up to 16 MB (max cluster size 4k) there is no need to consider that at the moment. Thanks to everybody who helped with 1.3rc2 indeed :-) Eric PS: Interesting that MS has given some exFAT patents to OIN and re-licensed the exFAT specs after 10+ years this year! > https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/fileio/exfat-specification ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
[Freedos-user] FreeDOS 1.3 RC2 is available for download
We are still moving toward the FreeDOS 1.3 release. FreeDOS 1.3 Release Candidate 2 is now available for download. Please help us test this new version! A big feature in FreeDOS 1.3 will be booting into a LiveCD version of FreeDOS. You can test this by downloading FD13-LiveCD.zip, which contains FD13LIVE.ISO. About the LiveCD, from the readme: > *This media is similar to the LegacyCD. However instead of relying on the > BIOS floppy disk emulation, it uses SYSLINUX and MEMDISK to boot an > emulated floppy disk. Along side support to perform a Plain and Full > installation FreeDOS, this media is also able to run FreeDOS live from RAM > or CD (depending on computer system and hardware) without installation to > an internal hard disk drive.* You can also download FreeDOS 1.3 RC2 in "Full" and "Lite" versions, and a "Legacy" CDROM version that is set up to let the CDROM boot on older hardware. Most users should try the LiveCD version. You can download the new FreeDOS 1.3 RC2 from the FreeDOS file archive at ibiblio: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/distributions/1.3/previews/1.3-rc2/ Thanks to Jerome for doing the hard work on the LiveCD! Jim ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
