Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
On Thu, 16 May 2024 at 15:27, Michał Dec via Freedos-user wrote: > > Absolutely. Think of all the yachts and summer homes they're losing by > not donating a scrap of 8086 assembly to the general public. Think of > all those poor shareholders and millionaires. Exactly. This is why I do not accept the claims of my younger and (IMHO) more gullible colleagues that MS is a different company today from how it used to be, and now it is a friend and ally of FOSS. I know for a fact that one of the major Linux vendors is entirely based on Microsoft Office 365 internally and uses it for all communications, scheduling etc. I challenged them on it and they said that they had a contract that said MS would not look at any confidential info! In writing! So it was 100% safe and secure. I told them of the companies whose IP and code MS had stolen: STAC, Central Point, and others. I told them of MS faking Win3.1 crashing on DR-DOS, for which it was found guilty in court: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code https://www.geoffchappell.com/notes/windows/archive/aard/index.htm I told them that Bill Gates personally lied to Paul Brainerd of Aldus and got Aldus to cancel its new Windows word processor -- then went back to the office and ordered WinWord as a rush job, which is why WinWord 1.x was junk. I told them of MS stealing Quicktime code for Video for Windows and having to pay Apple damages, which the marketing lizards spun as an "investment" in Apple. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Canyon_Company https://www.zdnet.com/article/stop-the-lies-the-day-that-microsoft-saved-apple/ No no no. That was the _old_ MS. I do not see Microsoft ever releasing Windows NT source code: NT is still in use. Win11 is NT. Ditto MS Office. If ReactOS ever reaches good compatibility with even Windows 2000 or XP, I think MS will stomp it. But it could release all versions of DOS (excluding non-MS code) and all of Windows 2, 3.x and 9x without helping anyone with cloning NT. WINE has already cloned more of the Win32 API than Win9x managed to run. It's over. Then I'd believe it a little tiny bit that MS means it when it says it loves FOSS. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven : (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
Absolutely. Think of all the yachts and summer homes they're losing by not donating a scrap of 8086 assembly to the general public. Think of all those poor shareholders and millionaires. Michał W dniu 15.05.2024 o 22:29, Roger via Freedos-user pisze: Microsoft is not willing to go to even the minimal effort of searching its own archives for the other versions to release them, but if someone else finds the code, it will permit the release under a permissive licence. Excuse #1, there's no money being acquired for going over code for releasing as open source. Roger ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
On Thu, 16 May 2024 at 10:07, tom ehlert via Freedos-user wrote: > > there is no need for Microsoft to search its own archives. > MSDOS 6.22 source leaked to the internet some 22 years ago, and a plenty of > people have it. Then MS would need to check this over, check it was correct and without Trojans etc. That at a minimum means finding its own copies and doing a file-by-file compare. That's effort and as we have discussed this is something it's unwilling to spend. > I don't understand how this would permit the "release under a permissive > licence". *If* the code was verified as unmodified MS code and _then_ *if* MS wrent to the extra work of removing all 3rd party code or obtaining clearance, it would then _and only then_ be able to relicence the resulting code. MS cannot relicense code it did not write. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven M: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
On Wed, 15 May 2024 at 21:31, Roger via Freedos-user wrote: > > Excuse #1, there's no money being acquired for going over code for > releasing as open source. Agreed. It is willing to release stuff it happens to find or others happen to find in order to sweeten the FOSS fanatics a bit, but it is not willing to go to any actual work in order to find things to release. Now, true, there is a difference here between DOS 4, 5 and 6. 4 contains only MS and IBM code (AFAIK). 5 is more useful as it contains memory management code to give ~620kB free base memory. 6 contains multiple pieces of code from other companies: * MEMMAKER (Helix Software) https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/31894 * Antivirus/Backup/Defrag (Central Point Software) * DoubleSpace (Vertisoft/STAC Electronics) * DriveSpace (Vertisoft) They'd either need to remove these, or trace the copyright holders and get rights from them. Much too much work! -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven oM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
> I think, applying Hanlon's Razor here, that this was a chance > discovery by someone else, and led to the release. Microsoft is not > willing to go to even the minimal effort of searching its own archives > for the other versions to release them, but if someone else finds the > code, it will permit the release under a permissive licence. there is no need for Microsoft to search its own archives. MSDOS 6.22 source leaked to the internet some 22 years ago, and a plenty of people have it. I don't understand how this would permit the "release under a permissive licence". Tom ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
>Microsoft is not willing to go to even the minimal effort of searching >its own archives for the other versions to release them, but if someone >else finds the code, it will permit the release under a permissive > licence. Excuse #1, there's no money being acquired for going over code for releasing as open source. Roger signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
On Tue, 14 May 2024 at 05:01, Jerome Shidel via Freedos-user wrote: > > Those aren’t even the good versions of MS-DOS. Agreed! > I think if they were serious, they would release 3.3, 5.0 and 6.22. It feels > like they are only placating to the open source community. Agreed on all counts. However, DOS 4 is a little more than a token effort. Together with 386Max or something, it could still be useful today, more so than DOS 3.3, perhaps. But only a very little more. I think, applying Hanlon's Razor here, that this was a chance discovery by someone else, and led to the release. Microsoft is not willing to go to even the minimal effort of searching its own archives for the other versions to release them, but if someone else finds the code, it will permit the release under a permissive licence. It's not much but it's better than nothing. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
That attitude toward the MS-DOS source code seems rather limiting and short-sighted. My recent device driver worked well enough on later versions of DOS (and FreeDOS) but I was having a devil of a time trying to figure out why DOS 2.x would not honor the device driver telling it that the media had been changed. Having the source code available allowed me to find a bug in DOS 2.x, and also cleared up several documentation questions (more like outright problems). Being compatible with all flavors of DOS should matter to anybody writing user code, device drivers, or even FreeDOS developers trying to improve the appeal of FreeDOS. MS has no need to placate the open source community, especially with old versions of DOS. This is somebody's passion project. I look forward to when the source code to DOS 3.3 or DOS 5.0 are released. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
Personally, I have zero interest in any on the versions of DOS that Microsoft has open sourced. Versions 1.25, 2.0 and 4.0. Really? Those aren’t even the good versions of MS-DOS. I think if they were serious, they would release 3.3, 5.0 and 6.22. It feels like they are only placating to the open source community. But, maybe I’m wrong. Maybe they don’t own all the code in those versions. Or, maybe they’ve lost the sources. Even I have programs I wrote from back in that era to which I no longer have the sources. Even when it comes to the “good” versions, I have no interest in how they did things. Sure, I own a copy of MS-DOS 6.22 the last version of MS-DOS. I even own PC-DOS 7.01 (with the upgraded files for 7.10). But, I really only use those for compatibility testing of software. Oh, and maybe a little nostalgia. But as for the actual code they used, I don’t care. The FreeDOS kernel and FreeCOM make for a far more capable Operating System. With the support for more RAM, larger drives and partitions it is a much more useful DOS than either MS or PC. If I were interested in kernel development, I would study the FreeDOS kernel. I would spend my time figuring out how it could be improved. As for FreeCOM, I have my own ideas on what a modern command line shell should be like. But generally, FreeCOM is fine. Any bugs should work themselves out eventually. :-) Jerome ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
..okay. My only surprise was your use of the word *all* where Microsoft is concerned. Speaking personally, their having released say 6.22, would have drawn a bit of a buzz I imagine. On Sun, 12 May 2024, Travis Siegel wrote: Microsoft itself has only released source for dos versions 1.25, 2.0 and 4.0. There are some commercial dos systems that released source for their versions of dos, such as opendos which was caldera dos, they released their version of dos 7.0, which I do have, as well as PTS dos, which released their last version of dos in source form as well, which I have as well. I can't find any license stuff on the PTS dos source, so I have no idea whether their source can be used in anything other than strictly personal environments, but I did have the opendos sources when they were released, and they were under a standard opensource license back when they were released, but then that decision was reversed for some reason, and further releases of that particular dos (of which I think there was only 1) were no longer opensource, but that doesn't really matter, since the opensource version is still available. That means, on a good day, folks can see at least three ways of doing things in dos (legally), though there were versions of MS-DOS version 6.0 that escaped into the wild in source form, which I did have a copy of at one point, though that hd died many many years ago, and I no longer have those sources. I do recall answering a question on a mud one time about the time/date field in dos, since there was some argument about how large the integer was representing the time field. Looking at ms-dos and opendos sources (I didn't have PTS dos sources at the time), there was a difference in the size of the variable used for that field, though I don't remember which dos had the larger variable type, though I did find it interesting that they used different integer types. On 5/12/2024 3:48 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote: Hi Travis, Does that mean the MS Dos code for 7 or so is has been releaced now as well? Sorry you lost your DOS machines in a move. Karen On Sun, 12 May 2024, Travis Siegel via Freedos-user wrote: > Since there was a discussion here recently on multitasking with dos, I'd > like to mention that the github versions of ms-dos has a directory > called v4.0-ozzie > > That directory has some interesting stuff in it, one of them is a couple > of dissk images (I need to move them to a linux machine and see if > they'll mount, I don't have anything on windows that can identify them), > but they also have some documentation (in pdf format) about how their > session manager works, and how to make dos applications multitask. The > session manager program is present as well, so folks could probably mess > around with that to see how well (or not) it works. It might be > something worth experimenting with for those who actually want multiple > dos programs running. > > I'm highly disappointed I lost my dos machines when we moved about 2.5 > years ago, I'd have had a lot of fun playing with this. > > > Also, interestingly enough, just for reference, all of the ms-dos source > code has been released under a MIT license. I find that particularly > interesting. Apparently, Microsoft was serious when they said they're > releasing the code for experimenting, and to see how early operating > systems worked. > > > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
Microsoft itself has only released source for dos versions 1.25, 2.0 and 4.0. There are some commercial dos systems that released source for their versions of dos, such as opendos which was caldera dos, they released their version of dos 7.0, which I do have, as well as PTS dos, which released their last version of dos in source form as well, which I have as well. I can't find any license stuff on the PTS dos source, so I have no idea whether their source can be used in anything other than strictly personal environments, but I did have the opendos sources when they were released, and they were under a standard opensource license back when they were released, but then that decision was reversed for some reason, and further releases of that particular dos (of which I think there was only 1) were no longer opensource, but that doesn't really matter, since the opensource version is still available. That means, on a good day, folks can see at least three ways of doing things in dos (legally), though there were versions of MS-DOS version 6.0 that escaped into the wild in source form, which I did have a copy of at one point, though that hd died many many years ago, and I no longer have those sources. I do recall answering a question on a mud one time about the time/date field in dos, since there was some argument about how large the integer was representing the time field. Looking at ms-dos and opendos sources (I didn't have PTS dos sources at the time), there was a difference in the size of the variable used for that field, though I don't remember which dos had the larger variable type, though I did find it interesting that they used different integer types. On 5/12/2024 3:48 AM, Karen Lewellen wrote: Hi Travis, Does that mean the MS Dos code for 7 or so is has been releaced now as well? Sorry you lost your DOS machines in a move. Karen On Sun, 12 May 2024, Travis Siegel via Freedos-user wrote: Since there was a discussion here recently on multitasking with dos, I'd like to mention that the github versions of ms-dos has a directory called v4.0-ozzie That directory has some interesting stuff in it, one of them is a couple of dissk images (I need to move them to a linux machine and see if they'll mount, I don't have anything on windows that can identify them), but they also have some documentation (in pdf format) about how their session manager works, and how to make dos applications multitask. The session manager program is present as well, so folks could probably mess around with that to see how well (or not) it works. It might be something worth experimenting with for those who actually want multiple dos programs running. I'm highly disappointed I lost my dos machines when we moved about 2.5 years ago, I'd have had a lot of fun playing with this. Also, interestingly enough, just for reference, all of the ms-dos source code has been released under a MIT license. I find that particularly interesting. Apparently, Microsoft was serious when they said they're releasing the code for experimenting, and to see how early operating systems worked. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
I thankfully never had dos 4.00, though I did have pcdos 4.01, which was a big improvement. over the .00 release. Not sure how/why the 4.00 versions were released, but even then, for some reason, the pc versions of dos were considered to be worlds better than the ms versions. Don't know why, because I never used the same versions of dos crossing pc/ms boundaries, I always had one or the other. On 5/12/2024 3:22 AM, Brandon Taylor wrote: It could be interesting (even though MS-DOS 4.0 was complete and utter GARBAGE according to anybody who had the misfortune to use it) to see what it can unlock as far as possibilities for FreeDOS 1.4. On a side note, when will "bare-metal" networking (e.g. for 86Box) be available once again? Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> *From:* Travis Siegel via Freedos-user *Sent:* Saturday, May 11, 2024 9:30:59 PM *To:* Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS. *Cc:* Travis Siegel *Subject:* [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code Since there was a discussion here recently on multitasking with dos, I'd like to mention that the github versions of ms-dos has a directory called v4.0-ozzie That directory has some interesting stuff in it, one of them is a couple of dissk images (I need to move them to a linux machine and see if they'll mount, I don't have anything on windows that can identify them), but they also have some documentation (in pdf format) about how their session manager works, and how to make dos applications multitask. The session manager program is present as well, so folks could probably mess around with that to see how well (or not) it works. It might be something worth experimenting with for those who actually want multiple dos programs running. I'm highly disappointed I lost my dos machines when we moved about 2.5 years ago, I'd have had a lot of fun playing with this. Also, interestingly enough, just for reference, all of the ms-dos source code has been released under a MIT license. I find that particularly interesting. Apparently, Microsoft was serious when they said they're releasing the code for experimenting, and to see how early operating systems worked. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
Thanks Jim, Was wondering given Travis said all, in his post smiles. Karen On Sat, 11 May 2024, Jim Hall via Freedos-user wrote: On Sat, May 11, 2024, 10:49???PM Karen Lewellen via Freedos-user < freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: Hi Travis, Does that mean the MS Dos code for 7 or so is has been releaced now as well? No, Microsoft has only released MS-DOS versions 1.25, 2.0 and 4.00 so far. Nothing beyond that. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
On Sat, May 11, 2024, 10:49 PM Karen Lewellen via Freedos-user < freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > Hi Travis, > Does that mean the MS Dos code for 7 or so is has been releaced now as > well? > No, Microsoft has only released MS-DOS versions 1.25, 2.0 and 4.00 so far. Nothing beyond that. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
Hi Travis, Does that mean the MS Dos code for 7 or so is has been releaced now as well? Sorry you lost your DOS machines in a move. Karen On Sun, 12 May 2024, Travis Siegel via Freedos-user wrote: Since there was a discussion here recently on multitasking with dos, I'd like to mention that the github versions of ms-dos has a directory called v4.0-ozzie That directory has some interesting stuff in it, one of them is a couple of dissk images (I need to move them to a linux machine and see if they'll mount, I don't have anything on windows that can identify them), but they also have some documentation (in pdf format) about how their session manager works, and how to make dos applications multitask. The session manager program is present as well, so folks could probably mess around with that to see how well (or not) it works. It might be something worth experimenting with for those who actually want multiple dos programs running. I'm highly disappointed I lost my dos machines when we moved about 2.5 years ago, I'd have had a lot of fun playing with this. Also, interestingly enough, just for reference, all of the ms-dos source code has been released under a MIT license. I find that particularly interesting. Apparently, Microsoft was serious when they said they're releasing the code for experimenting, and to see how early operating systems worked. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
It could be interesting (even though MS-DOS 4.0 was complete and utter GARBAGE according to anybody who had the misfortune to use it) to see what it can unlock as far as possibilities for FreeDOS 1.4. On a side note, when will "bare-metal" networking (e.g. for 86Box) be available once again? Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg> From: Travis Siegel via Freedos-user Sent: Saturday, May 11, 2024 9:30:59 PM To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS. Cc: Travis Siegel Subject: [Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code Since there was a discussion here recently on multitasking with dos, I'd like to mention that the github versions of ms-dos has a directory called v4.0-ozzie That directory has some interesting stuff in it, one of them is a couple of dissk images (I need to move them to a linux machine and see if they'll mount, I don't have anything on windows that can identify them), but they also have some documentation (in pdf format) about how their session manager works, and how to make dos applications multitask. The session manager program is present as well, so folks could probably mess around with that to see how well (or not) it works. It might be something worth experimenting with for those who actually want multiple dos programs running. I'm highly disappointed I lost my dos machines when we moved about 2.5 years ago, I'd have had a lot of fun playing with this. Also, interestingly enough, just for reference, all of the ms-dos source code has been released under a MIT license. I find that particularly interesting. Apparently, Microsoft was serious when they said they're releasing the code for experimenting, and to see how early operating systems worked. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
[Freedos-user] the msdos 4.0 sources has some multitasking code
Since there was a discussion here recently on multitasking with dos, I'd like to mention that the github versions of ms-dos has a directory called v4.0-ozzie That directory has some interesting stuff in it, one of them is a couple of dissk images (I need to move them to a linux machine and see if they'll mount, I don't have anything on windows that can identify them), but they also have some documentation (in pdf format) about how their session manager works, and how to make dos applications multitask. The session manager program is present as well, so folks could probably mess around with that to see how well (or not) it works. It might be something worth experimenting with for those who actually want multiple dos programs running. I'm highly disappointed I lost my dos machines when we moved about 2.5 years ago, I'd have had a lot of fun playing with this. Also, interestingly enough, just for reference, all of the ms-dos source code has been released under a MIT license. I find that particularly interesting. Apparently, Microsoft was serious when they said they're releasing the code for experimenting, and to see how early operating systems worked. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
