Re: [FRIAM] well we did finance
Marcus, Thanks for acknowledging that there at least might be some process behind the buzz words being used in the pop culture discussion of events. The so called 'sub-prime crisis' is referred to using a stereotype for ancient and long discredited people and practices. I think it's inadequate as a label for our whole society's double mass hysterias in switching from perceiving the potential value of real-estate as near infinite to being near zero. That's a bigger process than a single stereotype explains. From our present hind sight the stereotype of a greedy lender fooling a foolish borrower is so crystal clear, and covered with so much of our own chagrin for it not having seen it clearly before, it's a wonder no one asks why it wasn't. What I think would bring the larger process to people's attention is recognizing who profited from it (who offering the addict their drug) and then ask why the same people pulled their funds out of risk when the wealth hysteria they fed seemed in the process of collapse. NOW the same people want to use those profits to come back into the market and be white nights and buy up all the devalued assets at a bargain. What adds even further to the irony, of course, is that, not seeing how it was done, the same people plan on using the same method to just do the same thing all over again the next time they get a chance, and everyone approves! If offering opportunity for mischief isn't a direct physical cause in this very one sided kind of case, then tell me why it's so extremely profitable. If I can't interest anyone in effective methods for investigating how these kinds of whole system phenomena operate, and why they run into consequential physical self-conflict, how about suggesting an appropriate stereotype for any of the damn fool players in the larger tragedy? Phil Phil wrote: By 'things', of course I mean physical systems rather than theoretical ones, and by 'multiplying' I mean allowing them to operate only if they produce a surplus you can use to expand them by %'s. Given the subprime mortgage crisis, I kind of wish that were the case! Credit worthiness, not consistent surplus, is what keeps families, companies, and our government running. Investment is commonly done on credit (in various forms). Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] well we did finance
Phil Henshaw wrote: If offering opportunity for mischief isn't a direct physical cause in this very one sided kind of case, then tell me why it's so extremely profitable. Funny how AIGFP could have been allowed to insure $300 billion in debt in private, but the whole company (300 times larger than this division) couldn't manage to post $15 billion collateral on this division's screwups (which we had to loan them), all while giving the ~400 people at AIGFP _all_ million dollar salaries. Talk about dumb risk models. Meanwhile, they've had their credit rating downgraded twice since 2005 before they went crying to the Federal Reserve. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] well we did finance
Yes, it goes to the 'many world's' feature of social and economic systems. Each world may be living in what seems to be an entirely different world. You can see them at a distance, but moving from one to another is particularly different. Then you get things like the world of the press, which is largely it's own fabrication of favorite discussion topics that only describe the subjects we'd be interested like sweat left in the boxing ring after the fighters are gone. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marcus G. Daniels Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 1:24 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] well we did finance Phil Henshaw wrote: If offering opportunity for mischief isn't a direct physical cause in this very one sided kind of case, then tell me why it's so extremely profitable. Funny how AIGFP could have been allowed to insure $300 billion in debt in private, but the whole company (300 times larger than this division) couldn't manage to post $15 billion collateral on this division's screwups (which we had to loan them), all while giving the ~400 people at AIGFP _all_ million dollar salaries. Talk about dumb risk models. Meanwhile, they've had their credit rating downgraded twice since 2005 before they went crying to the Federal Reserve. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] well we did finance
Phil wrote: By 'things', of course I mean physical systems rather than theoretical ones, and by 'multiplying' I mean allowing them to operate only if they produce a surplus you can use to expand them by %'s. Given the subprime mortgage crisis, I kind of wish that were the case! Credit worthiness, not consistent surplus, is what keeps families, companies, and our government running. Investment is commonly done on credit (in various forms). Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] well we did finance....
As a question then, does trying the multiply things without limit cause them to be limited by failure? By 'things', of course I mean physical systems rather than theoretical ones, and by 'multiplying' I mean allowing them to operate only if they produce a surplus you can use to expand them by %'s. Phil -Original Message- From: Carl Tollander [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 1:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] well we did finance Doubtless, but since ignoring it we are, knowing of it we do not. Evidence alone won't find it (no matter how well or variously or repetitively presented). You have to ask a right question. Punctuation may help too; maybe some hyphens. Phil Henshaw wrote: Is there anything else around we can ignore the pump it till it quits problem for? pfh - --- FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
[FRIAM] well we did finance....
Is there anything else around we can ignore the pump it till it quits problem for? pfh FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] well we did finance....
? On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Phil Henshaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there anything else around we can ignore the pump it till it quits problem for? pfh FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -- Doug Roberts, RTI International [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] well we did finance....
! On Sep 22, 2008, at 7:30 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: ? On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Phil Henshaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there anything else around we can ignore the pump it till it quits problem for? pfh FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -- Doug Roberts, RTI International [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] well we did finance....
Doubtless, but since ignoring it we are, knowing of it we do not. Evidence alone won't find it (no matter how well or variously or repetitively presented). You have to ask a right question. Punctuation may help too; maybe some hyphens. Phil Henshaw wrote: Is there anything else around we can ignore the pump it till it quits problem for? pfh FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
