Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
Hi, I compiled the latest version of FreeCAD and OpenCASCADE on my machine (with NVidia 8600 195.36.15, Debian 5.0.6). The compile worked reasonable and FreeCAD starts, but when I try to model something, e.g. cut a sphere out of a cube or chamfer and fillet the cube the screen-output is rubbish. Otherwise your general path appears reasonable to me. As it's only free as in beer, I don't fully suggest it, but gCAD3D seems to produce stable results - How about forging the script in a way to have the 3D-CAD program select the model it likes and really emit only XYRS, the footprint and ev. provide a table that correlates the footprint with a (choice of) 3D-model(s)? BTW. gCAD3D can read/write IGES, STEP and it's own documented ascii-format. Matthew Wilkins wrote: If it was me, I think I'd make a script for some 3D modelling package like FreeCAD to generate a 3D model using PCB's XY place file output. The process would be: 1. make FreeCAD 3D models for each of the components 2. generate an XY place file, board outline file and drill file in PCB 3. run a python script in FreeCAD that generates a model of the board based on the outline gerber file. Make holes using data from the drill file. 4. Run a script that makes an assembly by placing components based on the XY place file. At this point you should have a 3D model of the board, right in a 3D CAD program that can be used to model enclosures and other parts. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
Matthew Wilkins wrote: 1. make FreeCAD 3D models for each of the components 2. generate an XY place file, board outline file and drill file in PCB 3. run a python script in FreeCAD that generates a model of the board based on the outline gerber file. Make holes using data from the drill file. 4. Run a script that makes an assembly by placing components based on the XY place file. This is exactly, what I had in mind, when I opened the subject A different approach to 3D modeling :-) At this point you should have a 3D model of the board, right in a 3D CAD program that can be used to model enclosures and other parts. And a path to create high quality rendered images or even animations with blender. Imagine a low-level flight through your populated board... ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
On 11/19/10 12:21 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~pcjc2/geda/pcb+gl_3d/pcb+gl_3d_packages_mockup3.png http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~pcjc2/geda/pcb+gl_3d/pcb+gl_3d_packages_mockup4.png Perhaps pixel shaders and bump mapping is a little overkill for a few resistors, but it has kept me amused for a while. I'm working on a VRML importer at the moment, as this will give us access to models people have created for KiCad. (And hopefully the converse too, when PCB+GL+3D lands and users start creating models). WOW that is gorgeous! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
On 11/21/2010 11:49 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: Perhaps pixel shaders and bump mapping is a little overkill for a few resistors, but it has kept me amused for a while. Looks fab! Will actually be useful. Why not have processors churn for us? Overkill? There are so many ways to kill the problem of not-fully-designed circuits...and enclosures... How could one have overkill? The more ammo the better! Thanks, John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
John Griessen wrote: How could one have overkill? Inefficient use of developer cycles. Traditionally, the most valuable resource open source projects. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
On Sun, 2010-11-21 at 22:45 +0100, kai-martin knaak wrote: John Griessen wrote: How could one have overkill? Inefficient use of developer cycles. Traditionally, the most valuable resource open source projects. Developers having fun are happy developers, and might even find time for some more boring work. I've almost been tempted to set myself the goal of merging the PCB+GL (non-3D) bits this week ;) -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
If it was me, I think I'd make a script for some 3D modelling package like FreeCAD to generate a 3D model using PCB's XY place file output. The process would be: 1. make FreeCAD 3D models for each of the components 2. generate an XY place file, board outline file and drill file in PCB 3. run a python script in FreeCAD that generates a model of the board based on the outline gerber file. Make holes using data from the drill file. 4. Run a script that makes an assembly by placing components based on the XY place file. At this point you should have a 3D model of the board, right in a 3D CAD program that can be used to model enclosures and other parts. - Original Message From: John Griessen j...@ecosensory.com To: gEDA user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org Sent: Sun, November 21, 2010 1:29:38 PM Subject: Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn On 11/21/2010 11:49 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: Perhaps pixel shaders and bump mapping is a little overkill for a few resistors, but it has kept me amused for a while. Looks fab! Will actually be useful. Why not have processors churn for us? Overkill? There are so many ways to kill the problem of not-fully-designed circuits...and enclosures... How could one have overkill? The more ammo the better! Thanks, John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 11:24:56 +0900 timecop time...@gmail.com wrote: 3D renderings of through-hole components is great and all, but this IS 2010, anyone still using through-hole stuff can just use Fritzing or something. How about adding relevant features to PCB, like boolean operations on copper pours that aren't a hack or ... hey, who am I kidding. You still don't get the point - this discussion isn't about what *else* could be used instead of PCB. It's about what can be integrated into PCB to achieve the desired effect - to compete with the other products out there if you like. Whether an external tool would do the job or not, apparently you are unaware of the immense quantity of through-hole components in use today, right now, in mass-production modern-day devices. Power supplies and audio equipment make excellent examples, and I am not talking about wall warts and iPods either. Don't forget your average modern PC mainboard: The PCI/PCIx slots, memory slots, many of the connectors on the back panel, the various pin headers for USB ports, LEDs, fans, switches, etc., the ATX power connectors, and probably the CPU socket as well. Anything that has to be hand-soldered the first time through (i.e. a run of prototypes) is often easier done with through hole parts unless you have the hands of a high-precision robot. Sometimes there's just no advantage to surface mount parts. If your product run is limited, they make things more expensive, as was the case with a product I helped design recently. When it was ready to go into production, it turned out that the SMT stencils and machine time for just one side of the board cost slightly more than just using through hole parts since we only intended to make a few hundred units. For both sides - forget about it. Last minute changes were made to switch entirely to through-hole parts before it went into production. This being 2010 does not mean that we can't make use of technology that's been around a while, if it still does the job properly. Not everything has to be (or indeed, can be) built with SMT parts. -- There are some things in life worth obsessing over. Most things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves. http://starbase.globalpc.net/~ezekowitz Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
kai-martin knaak wrote: I am playing with writing a VRML importer - which should be able to read files exported by Wings32 (like KiCad), but I can't for the life of me figure out how to drive Wings32 to create a new model! I'd strongly prefer to do 3D models with a full fledged 3D CAD application. Preferably with the CAD app I use for the rest of my construction work. That's the benefit if pcb would communicate the full information of the layout to a free 3D CAD app. This app would shoulder the tedious import/export to the complex formats of the real 3D CAD world -- IGES, STEP, DWG, ... Did I mention, that mesh formats are a one way road, when it comes to construction? +1 (Please tell me, that I don't need to make that point over and over again ;-) I knew that ;-) - no need to convice me. Still if pcb is to display 3D models with OpenGL, a tessellation of the scene is required. Personally, I'd prefer something like the winged-edge data structure of BRL-CAD (not it's UI) to handle intersections of BREPs. Many years ago I started to define something like that myself, but never got enough motivation to to complete it - still, I can help you (and my own demo ;-) with that. You might have a look at http://gts.sourceforge.net/ . ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 03:58 -0600, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: Whether an external tool would do the job or not, apparently you are unaware of the immense quantity of through-hole components in use today, right now, in mass-production modern-day devices. Power supplies and audio equipment make excellent examples, and I am not talking about wall warts and iPods either. Coming from a power-electronics background, through hole is still the norm for me. Gate driver boards, controllers and such are usually SMD though, but for small volume runs, through hole has huge benefits as you say. The board in the image I posted was an interface board for various sensors on an off-shore marine renewables generation rig. It had a total production run of 5 units. (Plus 2 more for our lab since the rig sank!) Using through hole tech meant all the boards were able to be assembled in-house by existing staff, rather than go out to contract assembly with a long lead-time. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 10:59 +0100, Armin Faltl wrote: You might have a look at http://gts.sourceforge.net/ . PCB already uses that for the topological auto-router ;) I had a thought in the back of my mind that it might also be useful for rendering models, but I've not got that far yet. I've written a parser for a subset of VRML (as used by KiCad), and am plodding along trying to think what internal data-structures we will need to make it all work. I'm hoping to define the internal representation of the 3D models in such a way that multiple import formats can utilise the same data-structure, and that I will be able to port my hard-coded resistor model to use it too. (There is still some advantage in keeping some things like a generic resistor model built-in, as it can work out the appropriate banding without me having to duplicate hundreds of different models into the library, but with different textures attached). -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 17:21 +, Peter Clifton wrote: http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~pcjc2/geda/pcb+gl_3d/pcb+gl_3d_packages_mockup3.png http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~pcjc2/geda/pcb+gl_3d/pcb+gl_3d_packages_mockup4.png Wow, they look amazing! Perhaps pixel shaders and bump mapping is a little overkill for a few resistors, but it has kept me amused for a while. I'm sure one day we'll be able to export the whole thing to a format which can be used in blender for those times you need super realistic renderings ;) Richard signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 17:30 +, Richard Barlow wrote: On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 17:21 +, Peter Clifton wrote: http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~pcjc2/geda/pcb+gl_3d/pcb+gl_3d_packages_mockup3.png http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~pcjc2/geda/pcb+gl_3d/pcb+gl_3d_packages_mockup4.png Wow, they look amazing! Thanks. About 1000 lines of C code to produce though ;) Perhaps pixel shaders and bump mapping is a little overkill for a few resistors, but it has kept me amused for a while. I'm sure one day we'll be able to export the whole thing to a format which can be used in blender for those times you need super realistic renderings ;) I wish I knew blender or some other 3D modelling package. I am playing with writing a VRML importer - which should be able to read files exported by Wings32 (like KiCad), but I can't for the life of me figure out how to drive Wings32 to create a new model! Best wishes, -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
Peter Clifton wrote: I'm sure one day we'll be able to export the whole thing to a format which can be used in blender for those times you need super realistic renderings ;) VRML is already such a format :-) I wish I knew blender This close-up of a laser diode package shows what blender is very good at -- render shapes as in a super natural way. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Laserdiode_housing.png?uselang=de The shape was done with varicad and exported to blender as STL. Note the artifacts on the supposedly smooth surfaces. There are filters to get rid of these artifacts in the renders image. However, in this case, the image looks better as it is. When it comes to 3D construction, mesh formats like STL or VRML won't help you much, though. I am playing with writing a VRML importer - which should be able to read files exported by Wings32 (like KiCad), but I can't for the life of me figure out how to drive Wings32 to create a new model! I'd strongly prefer to do 3D models with a full fledged 3D CAD application. Preferably with the CAD app I use for the rest of my construction work. That's the benefit if pcb would communicate the full information of the layout to a free 3D CAD app. This app would shoulder the tedious import/export to the complex formats of the real 3D CAD world -- IGES, STEP, DWG, ... Did I mention, that mesh formats are a one way road, when it comes to construction? (Please tell me, that I don't need to make that point over and over again ;-) ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 02:39 +0100, kai-martin knaak wrote: Did I mention, that mesh formats are a one way road, when it comes to construction? (Please tell me, that I don't need to make that point over and over again ;-) Got it ;) -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
Peter Clifton wrote: when PCB+GL+3D lands and users start creating models). ^ I'd love to see PCB+GL enter the main repo rather than wait until 3D is mature enough, too. ---)kaimartin( -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 03:00 +0100, kai-martin knaak wrote: Peter Clifton wrote: when PCB+GL+3D lands and users start creating models). ^ I'd love to see PCB+GL enter the main repo rather than wait until 3D is mature enough, too. I've been slowly tinkering with stabilising the code and heading in that direction. One of the big jobs I've been putting off is cleaning up the polygon rasterisation code I stole from cairo, moving it into its own namespace and fixing up some gross API kludges I made. The other nuisance is that the nice fast pixel shader based rendering I've been using and enjoying recently will not necessarily work for everyone. I have to write some tests to check what functionality is available - and (if I feel charitable!), write some fall-backs ;). -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: PCB+GL resistor p0rn
3D renderings of through-hole components is great and all, but this IS 2010, anyone still using through-hole stuff can just use Fritzing or something. How about adding relevant features to PCB, like boolean operations on copper pours that aren't a hack or ... hey, who am I kidding. -tc On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 03:00 +0100, kai-martin knaak wrote: Peter Clifton wrote: when PCB+GL+3D lands and users start creating models). ^ I'd love to see PCB+GL enter the main repo rather than wait until 3D is mature enough, too. I've been slowly tinkering with stabilising the code and heading in that direction. One of the big jobs I've been putting off is cleaning up the polygon rasterisation code I stole from cairo, moving it into its own namespace and fixing up some gross API kludges I made. The other nuisance is that the nice fast pixel shader based rendering I've been using and enjoying recently will not necessarily work for everyone. I have to write some tests to check what functionality is available - and (if I feel charitable!), write some fall-backs ;). -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
