Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Armin Faltl Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 11:53 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling Patrick Doyle wrote: On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 10:01 PM, kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: Looks like there is no open 3D exchange format that fits the need of pcb: a) render a beautiful image of a populated board b) integrate pcb in a 3D work-flow to fit the board into some tight space. The existing formats are either limited to surfaces rather than objects (STL, VRML). This prevents efficient processing of the 3D geometry. Or they lack attributes for eye candy (IGES). Or they are overly complex and geared to completely different use cases (STEP) Not knowing anything of which I speak (write?), would COLLADA (https://collada.org/mediawiki/index.php/COLLADA_-_Digital_Asset_and_F X_Exchange_Schema) fit the bill? Reading https://collada.org/mediawiki/index.php/COLLADA_FAQ#What_is_COLLADA.3F I believe COLLADA is a format mainly concerned about DCC (digital content creation). It's probably very good at meshes, textures and some freeform surfaces, but I didn't see anything about geometric primitives like spheres, cylinders dimensions and layers. Don't confuse rigid body with solid geometry. Maybe my view is to pessimistic, but one needs to read the spec to prove. Just my thoughts on this matter: The COLLADA FAQ says (amongst many other things): Q: Are COLLADA documents included as part of games? A: COLLADA is not designed to be used as a final game format. COLLADA allows 3D content to be created in any 3D package, exported to COLLADA format and edited with a variety of tools from different vendors. Once the content is finalized, it is usually processed into whatever format is most efficient for the game engine and hardware platform being used. AFAICT, THE COLLADA format can transport 3D-data from A to many Bs. 3D data can either be a set of vertexes or primitives. It does not solve the primitives versus vertexes discussion for us, that is a decision the pcb dev/user community has to make, or just do both so the user has a choice. A pcb exporter (or plugin) will still have to generate this 3D data. Do you take the blue pill or the red pill, Neo ? For now I continue with the OpenSCAD route. When and if this gets to work according to my expectations, as I hope it will (there are some limitations that need be solved on the OpenSCAD side), then maybe gEDA can get some leverage in the Makerbot and Reprap communities. There seems to a variety of encasings for pcbs made with them plastruders. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4071 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3944 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3665 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3559 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3372 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3363 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2982 Printable RC filter redux (should have been done with pcb) http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2360 http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1904 Parametric QF Breakout Board (should have been done with pcb) http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1716 Just my EUR 0.02 Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On 21 November 2010 02:05, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 22:48 +, Gareth Edwards wrote: The usability of the Blender 2.5x betas is a step-change from the existing versions. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's considerably less insane. Just installed it, seems pretty good compared with 2.45. Thanks for the pointer! Also, I have a reasonable amount of Blender experience so feel free to ping me if you need any help (on- or off-list). I think that in spite of its faults, Blender is the dominant FOSS 3D application and it should be at least an option for getting models into a 3D-capable pcb. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
Patrick Doyle wrote: On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 10:01 PM, kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: Looks like there is no open 3D exchange format that fits the need of pcb: a) render a beautiful image of a populated board b) integrate pcb in a 3D work-flow to fit the board into some tight space. The existing formats are either limited to surfaces rather than objects (STL, VRML). This prevents efficient processing of the 3D geometry. Or they lack attributes for eye candy (IGES). Or they are overly complex and geared to completely different use cases (STEP) Not knowing anything of which I speak (write?), would COLLADA (https://collada.org/mediawiki/index.php/COLLADA_-_Digital_Asset_and_FX_Exchange_Schema) fit the bill? Reading https://collada.org/mediawiki/index.php/COLLADA_FAQ#What_is_COLLADA.3F I believe COLLADA is a format mainly concerned about DCC (digital content creation). It's probably very good at meshes, textures and some freeform surfaces, but I didn't see anything about geometric primitives like spheres, cylinders dimensions and layers. Don't confuse rigid body with solid geometry. Maybe my view is to pessimistic, but one needs to read the spec to prove. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On 11/19/2010 08:22 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: I suppose I've been spoilt coming from a background where the only CAD I've used is PTC's Pro-Engineer, which has a really nice parametric sketch editor you can extrude or revolve parts from. HeeksCAD lets you do that. parametric sketch, then non-parametric 3D from it. FreeCAD probably does too. John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
Armin Faltl wrote: Reading https://collada.org/mediawiki/index.php/COLLADA_FAQ#What_is_COLLADA.3F I believe COLLADA is a format mainly concerned about DCC (digital content creation). It's probably very good at meshes, textures and some freeform surfaces, but I didn't see anything about geometric primitives like spheres, cylinders dimensions and layers. Don't confuse rigid body with solid geometry. Maybe my view is to pessimistic, but one needs to read the spec to prove. So I downloaded and skimmed through collada-spec 1.5; In chapter 9 the geometry primitives are described and they include cubes, spheres and such. But I never saw any layers or dimensions mentioned. The intro of the spec mentions CAD though - probably as a transfer format DCC - CAD, not sure about CAD - CAD. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On 19 November 2010 23:03, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 14:07 -0800, Colin D Bennett wrote: It has to be mentioned that Blender is free and open source but Google Sketchup is not. I took that as known, but I don't disprove of using good commercial software to do a job. I find Blender quite challenging to work with. The usability of the Blender 2.5x betas is a step-change from the existing versions. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's considerably less insane. Gareth ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 11:53 +0100, Armin Faltl wrote: I believe COLLADA is a format mainly concerned about DCC (digital content creation). It's probably very good at meshes, textures and some freeform surfaces, but I didn't see anything about geometric primitives like spheres, cylinders dimensions and layers. Don't confuse rigid body with solid geometry. Maybe my view is to pessimistic, but one needs to read the spec to prove. I've seen claims 1.5 supports BREP. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 22:48 +, Gareth Edwards wrote: The usability of the Blender 2.5x betas is a step-change from the existing versions. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's considerably less insane. Just installed it, seems pretty good compared with 2.45. Thanks for the pointer! -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 10:01 PM, kai-martin knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: Looks like there is no open 3D exchange format that fits the need of pcb: a) render a beautiful image of a populated board b) integrate pcb in a 3D work-flow to fit the board into some tight space. The existing formats are either limited to surfaces rather than objects (STL, VRML). This prevents efficient processing of the 3D geometry. Or they lack attributes for eye candy (IGES). Or they are overly complex and geared to completely different use cases (STEP) Not knowing anything of which I speak (write?), would COLLADA (https://collada.org/mediawiki/index.php/COLLADA_-_Digital_Asset_and_FX_Exchange_Schema) fit the bill? I just happened to stumble across it last week on something totally unrelated, and then noticed your email saying I need an open 3D exchange format. --wpd ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 06:15 -0500, Patrick Doyle wrote: Not knowing anything of which I speak (write?), would COLLADA (https://collada.org/mediawiki/index.php/COLLADA_-_Digital_Asset_and_FX_Exchange_Schema) fit the bill? I just happened to stumble across it last week on something totally unrelated, and then noticed your email saying I need an open 3D exchange format. Blender imports and exports it too, which is nice. I just exported a simple cube from blender into Collada format, and it isn't too frightening, but it is not so simple as VRML. Perhaps it ranks as nice to have, especially if there is some good modelling software which only makes that format. For now, I think in the spirit of co-operation with our FOSS bretheren / competitors, VRML is the way forward. In the short term, we benefit from pre-existing models from KiCad, in the long term, we both benefit from more users generating models. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 17:43 +, Peter Clifton wrote: On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 06:15 -0500, Patrick Doyle wrote: Not knowing anything of which I speak (write?), would COLLADA (https://collada.org/mediawiki/index.php/COLLADA_-_Digital_Asset_and_FX_Exchange_Schema) fit the bill? I just happened to stumble across it last week on something totally unrelated, and then noticed your email saying I need an open 3D exchange format. Blender imports and exports it too, which is nice. I just exported a simple cube from blender into Collada format, and it isn't too frightening, but it is not so simple as VRML. Perhaps it ranks as nice to have, especially if there is some good modelling software which only makes that format. By which I mean Google Sketchup, of course.. I've not used it myself, as it dies under Wine for me (setting up GL), but apparently it is good. Unfortunately only the Pro (pay-for) version supports export to VRML. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 17:43 +, Peter Clifton wrote: On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 06:15 -0500, Patrick Doyle wrote: Not knowing anything of which I speak (write?), would COLLADA (https://collada.org/mediawiki/index.php/COLLADA_-_Digital_Asset_and_FX_Exchange_Schema) fit the bill? I just happened to stumble across it last week on something totally unrelated, and then noticed your email saying I need an open 3D exchange format. Blender imports and exports it too, which is nice. I just exported a simple cube from blender into Collada format, and it isn't too frightening, but it is not so simple as VRML. Perhaps it ranks as nice to have, especially if there is some good modelling software which only makes that format. By which I mean Google Sketchup, of course.. I've not used it myself, as it dies under Wine for me (setting up GL), but apparently it is good. Unfortunately only the Pro (pay-for) version supports export to VRML. So then why not use COLLADA and blender? (I'm not trying to push for this, or to pick a fight, I'm just curious and trying to learn something totally new to me.) --wpd ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:24:05 -0500 Patrick Doyle wpds...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 17:43 +, Peter Clifton wrote: Perhaps it ranks as nice to have, especially if there is some good modelling software which only makes that format. By which I mean Google Sketchup, of course.. I've not used it myself, as it dies under Wine for me (setting up GL), but apparently it is good. Unfortunately only the Pro (pay-for) version supports export to VRML. So then why not use COLLADA and blender? (I'm not trying to push for this, or to pick a fight, I'm just curious and trying to learn something totally new to me.) It has to be mentioned that Blender is free and open source but Google Sketchup is not. Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 15:24 -0500, Patrick Doyle wrote: So then why not use COLLADA and blender? (I'm not trying to push for this, or to pick a fight, I'm just curious and trying to learn something totally new to me.) 1. KiCad 2. VRML is easier to implement perhaps? 3. Blender can also save VRML (+lots of other formats) I'm trying to design the data-structures with both VRML, Collada and additional internally generated models in mind. I've got a Collada file open right now. It is completely understandable, but will probably take a bit more work extracting data from it reliably as there is a lot more referencing which is done by name within the DOM, rather than implied by the structure of the file. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 14:07 -0800, Colin D Bennett wrote: It has to be mentioned that Blender is free and open source but Google Sketchup is not. I took that as known, but I don't disprove of using good commercial software to do a job. I find Blender quite challenging to work with. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
Am 19.11.2010 23:07, schrieb Colin D Bennett: It has to be mentioned that Blender is free and open source but Google Sketchup is not. Let's not forget other free software, like wings3d, which may be less powerful compared to blender, but is much more newbie-friendly, and quite good for modelling (which it focuses on more than blender). AFAIK it has wuite a number of export plugins though, which should make supporting it easier. Philipp ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
Hi: El 19/11/10 23:07, Colin D Bennett escribió: On Fri, 19 Nov 2010 15:24:05 -0500 Patrick Doylewpds...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Peter Cliftonpc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 17:43 +, Peter Clifton wrote: Perhaps it ranks as nice to have, especially if there is some good modelling software which only makes that format. By which I mean Google Sketchup, of course.. I've not used it myself, as it dies under Wine for me (setting up GL), but apparently it is good. Unfortunately only the Pro (pay-for) version supports export to VRML. So then why not use COLLADA and blender? (I'm not trying to push for this, or to pick a fight, I'm just curious and trying to learn something totally new to me.) It has to be mentioned that Blender is free and open source but Google Sketchup is not. And runs on non x86 platforms. Sketchup, and wine, doesn't. Please remember non x86 platforms (like PowerPC users how me) in yours decisions, there are solutions that aren't fully compatible in others platforms. Regards, Colin Best regards. Salud y Revolución. Lobo. -- Libertad es poder elegir en cualquier momento. Ahora yo elijo GNU/Linux, para no atar mis manos con las cadenas del soft propietario. - Desde El Ejido, en Almería, usuario registrado Linux #294013 http://www.counter.li.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
Bert Timmerman wrote: http://openscad.org/ And the beginning of an OpenSCAD exporter for pcb, on top of a recent (current) clone of the pcb git repository: https://github.com/bert/pcb-openscad Please give me your thoughts and opinions on both. I see a nice way to produce 3D models non-interactively. The models can be exported as a mesh in STL format. This allows for import to blender for super naturalistic rendering. Goal number one achieved :-) I don't see a work flow to 3D construction apps. There is DXF output. But this is 2D, only. So goal number two seems out of reach. Is there a STEP export in the pipeline? ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On Fri, 2010-11-19 at 23:43 +0100, Philipp Klaus Krause wrote: Let's not forget other free software, like wings3d, which may be less powerful compared to blender, but is much more newbie-friendly, and quite good for modelling (which it focuses on more than blender). AFAIK it has wuite a number of export plugins though, which should make supporting it easier. Wings3D can export to most if not all the formats I'm interested in, but now you make me feel stupid.. I couldn't figure out how to get started with it other than opening existing models. Since you say it is newbie friendly, I'll go back and try again. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
On Sat, 2010-11-20 at 02:05 +, Peter Clifton wrote: Wings3D can export to most if not all the formats I'm interested in, but now you make me feel stupid.. I couldn't figure out how to get started with it other than opening existing models. Since you say it is newbie friendly, I'll go back and try again. Ok.. so you right click on the canvas to insert and manipulate objects. I've been using CAD apps deprived of useful mouse context menus for too long (looks at gEDA and PCB ;)). I could still go insane quite fast trying to draw a complex model in Wings3D. I managed a cylinder and something touching it, but found myself wanting to hurl the computer very readily. I suppose I've been spoilt coming from a background where the only CAD I've used is PTC's Pro-Engineer, which has a really nice parametric sketch editor you can extrude or revolve parts from. Any real CAD beats tools for graphic designers for objects where you want to get dimensions accurate I guess. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling
Hi Kai-Martin, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of kai-martin knaak Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 4:01 AM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: gEDA-user: a different approach to 3D modeling Looks like there is no open 3D exchange format that fits the need of pcb: a) render a beautiful image of a populated board b) integrate pcb in a 3D work-flow to fit the board into some tight space. The existing formats are either limited to surfaces rather than objects (STL, VRML). This prevents efficient processing of the 3D geometry. Or they lack attributes for eye candy (IGES). Or they are overly complex and geared to completely different use cases (STEP) It might be easier to do 3D in a different way: Teach the 3D CAD application how to read pcb files. Then, let the CAD app retrieve 3D models that correspond to the footprints mentioned in the layout. Use the 3D engine to render images, or do mechanical engineering. Also teach the CAD app to export pcb layout data from 2D shapes. The pcb file format contains all information needed to reproduce the geometry of the board in a concise form. Given the ability of general python scripting within the 3D CAD, it shouldn't be that hard to write a *.pcb parser. Once the geometry is known to the CAD app, it can export it to whatever format its engine supports. If the CAD app can be driven completely by scripting, the conversion could be triggered from within a pcb menu. Benefits: * no need to write import/export functions for general 3D data exchange formats. * only deal with well known file formats (*.pcb) * efficient file transfer to a 3D CAD which keeps names objects rather anonymous shapes Drawbacks: * no fancy 3D images in a stand-alone binary of pcb * beautiful images might need blender as a third major component. * ties to a specific 3D CAD app, which may not be everybodies favorite choice Just an idea from my way home... ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 Have a look at: http://openscad.org/ And the beginning of an OpenSCAD exporter for pcb, on top of a recent (current) clone of the pcb git repository: https://github.com/bert/pcb-openscad Please give me your thoughts and opinions on both. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
