Re: [gentoo-user]ask for installation help!
Op vrijdag, november 21, 2014 14:57:57 schreef Giant Y: Hello, I am a Debian user and now want to try gentoo. Firstly, I install gentoo in Virtual box for practice. I follow the quick install guide on http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-quickinstall.xml. Unluckily, this guide cannot help me install gentoo successfully. The problem is Grub2 cannot boot correct. The following picture show all items in /boot directory. When the system starts, it enters the grub2 console. I tried to boot manually, but failed. Please help me! - posted by *Giant Y* You should follow the grub setup from the handbook, the quick install guide describes legacy grub. I'm running Gentoo inside Virtualbox. I had to add GRUB_PLATFORMS=pc to /etc/portage/make.conf to make grub2-install work. Cheers, Paul
Re: [gentoo-user]ask for installation help!
On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 02:57:57PM +0800, Giant Y wrote: Firstly, I install gentoo in Virtual box for practice. I follow the quick install guide onA http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-quickinstall.xml. Unluckily, I would actually recommend going through the handbook for your first install of Gentoo anyway, since it does provide a nice introduction to the key mechanics of Gentoo. There's also some very useful information about Gentoo (introduction to portage, for example) in part two of the handbook. That being said, I don't think it caters to VirtualBox environments specifically, so Paul's note on setting GRUB_PLATFORMS should be used too. Cheers; -- wraeth wra...@wraeth.id.au GnuPG Key: B2D9F759 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user]ask for installation help!
Thank you. The problem solved. - posted by *Giant Y* On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 6:34 PM, wraeth wra...@wraeth.id.au wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 02:57:57PM +0800, Giant Y wrote: Firstly, I install gentoo in Virtual box for practice. I follow the quick install guide onA http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-quickinstall.xml. Unluckily, I would actually recommend going through the handbook for your first install of Gentoo anyway, since it does provide a nice introduction to the key mechanics of Gentoo. There's also some very useful information about Gentoo (introduction to portage, for example) in part two of the handbook. That being said, I don't think it caters to VirtualBox environments specifically, so Paul's note on setting GRUB_PLATFORMS should be used too. Cheers; -- wraeth wra...@wraeth.id.au GnuPG Key: B2D9F759
Re: [gentoo-user] The future of linux, and Gentoo specifically now
On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 2:32 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: It's actually a great thing for a lot of use cases. But it doesn't seem that Gentoo will change defaults soon, although systemd works great with it. My (personal) sense is that in the medium-term we may end up moving to not having any default at all, just as with bootloaders, kernels, syslog, crontab, mail, etc. That is pretty-much the Gentoo way everywhere else when there are options. As you already pointed out, as long as somebody cares to maintain openrc and write init scripts for it, there will be support for it. Many init scripts and systemd units are contributed by outside users already, and policy is that maintainers cannot block them from being added to packages (though they do not have to write/maintain them personally). Gentoo doesn't really tend to exclude anything, and inclusion is a matter of whether somebody wants to put in the work. -- Rich
[gentoo-user] headphone does not work in windows After logging to linux
Hi. My problem is that when I log off from gentoo and login to windows, my headphone does not work in windows. Has anyone encountered the same problem?
Re: [gentoo-user] headphone does not work in windows After logging to linux
On Nov 21, 2014, at 14:08, behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. My problem is that when I log off from gentoo and login to windows, my headphone does not work in windows. Has anyone encountered the same problem? Do you reboot in the between or are you running somekind of virtual machine? Usb headphones or what? What sound driver? I've had problems with NIC between reboots. They were cleared by removing power cord for multiple minutes while rebooting. I got rid of the problem when i updated NIC's driver (bug in driver). -- -Matti
Re: [gentoo-user] headphone does not work in windows After logging to linux
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 21/11/14 16:07, Matti Nykyri wrote: Do you reboot in the between or are you running somekind of virtual machine? Usb headphones or what? What sound driver? I've had problems with NIC between reboots. They were cleared by removing power cord for multiple minutes while rebooting. I got rid of the problem when i updated NIC's driver (bug in driver). Hmm, I have a similar problem with my SiS 190 ethernet adapter. It works fine under gentoo, but after reboot from windows it stops working. Pulling the plug and waiting helps. Very peculiar imo. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJUbzqXAAoJEK64IL1uI2haX6UIAIrCPnbhgQIkbnFhPfckEmt8 rPTg7upzjLnwpFOdQWbiLjrD01QCvcuCsxU6j2s/tT1uRnKGOQFKLhGcdLQIUUfn jCzZVJdDLG89nO/iMEB3x5nBNaDH9KIorkMXOSfWVi4EYGhc/IHQJKrqDHtOEvAj E5MOijKVLnH6vKXfI80YtaUcYSgAziDk3cOFANU68HqBaaNAV8vWghFl0e0FwAtH pUubqD3XtqEMDFtKsBOiFxz02ZSQ8Lnb/MLDxvegWYxNWVqurv/O3BCTt+8DmJTD a5v8ClnWWMFFW1y3s50m5ifqgxVkUzaNtG/zT7i24unP+8chQQSVUDGcT+neXiU= =EQtE -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user]ask for installation help!
On Friday, November 21, 2014 09:34:30 PM wraeth wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 02:57:57PM +0800, Giant Y wrote: Firstly, I install gentoo in Virtual box for practice. I follow the quick install guide onA http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-quickinstall.xml. Unluckily, I would actually recommend going through the handbook for your first install of Gentoo anyway, since it does provide a nice introduction to the key mechanics of Gentoo. Actually, I wouldn't use the quickinstall guide in its current state. The end-result is different from the recommended options in the current install-guide. To do it quick, I would skip the text and just follow the commands. For a first-time install, do read the entire manual, it explains why certain commands are run. There's also some very useful information about Gentoo (introduction to portage, for example) in part two of the handbook. +1 That being said, I don't think it caters to VirtualBox environments specifically, so Paul's note on setting GRUB_PLATFORMS should be used too. I use VirtualBox on my laptop for testing and haven't had to add anything to GRUB_PLATFORMS ever. -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] headphone does not work in windows After logging to linux
Do you reboot in the between or are you running somekind of virtual machine? Usb headphones or what? What sound driver? I've had problems with NIC between reboots. They were cleared by removing power cord for multiple minutes while rebooting. I got rid of the problem when i updated NIC's driver (bug in driver). -- -Matti No. It happen every time I boot into linux. Gentoo or Arch. removing power helps but is annoying. its not usb, but I dont know what is called! the ordinary type! Its a realtek chip . The bug that you mentioned is related to linux driver or windows driver?
Re: [gentoo-user]ask for installation help!
Op vrijdag, november 21, 2014 14:06:24 schreef J. Roeleveld: I use VirtualBox on my laptop for testing and haven't had to add anything to GRUB_PLATFORMS ever. Strange, I couldn't get grub2-install to run without diving into GRUB_PLATFORMS. I installed not too long ago and I've had to re-emerge grub a few times with different settings until it finally agreed to install itself. Come to think of it, I may have started out with my desktop copy of make.conf, which is configured for EFI boot. I might have a go without GRUB_PLATFORMS altogether and see what happens. Paul
Re: [gentoo-user] headphone does not work in windows After logging to linux
On Nov 21, 2014, at 16:15, behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com wrote: Do you reboot in the between or are you running somekind of virtual machine? Usb headphones or what? What sound driver? I've had problems with NIC between reboots. They were cleared by removing power cord for multiple minutes while rebooting. I got rid of the problem when i updated NIC's driver (bug in driver). -- -Matti No. It happen every time I boot into linux. Gentoo or Arch. removing power helps but is annoying. its not usb, but I dont know what is called! the ordinary type! Its a realtek chip . The bug that you mentioned is related to linux driver or windows driver? I have realtek R6168/6111/6169 NIC. It works in Linux with realtek's driver not with the one included in kernel. Windows fails to initialize the NIC properly when I reboot from linux to windows. When NIC is reset by recycling power windows will be able to initialize it. Downgrading windows (7 64bit) dirver to an ancient one fixed the problem. The up-to-date realtek driver didn't work correctly. lspci -v You can check what driver kernel uses for you audio. Also the bug can be in alsa. The ways of alsa quite complicated... You are using alsa right? What error message does alsa give when you try to play audio?
Re: [gentoo-user] headphone does not work in windows After logging to linux
On Nov 21, 2014 6:23 PM, Matti Nykyri matti.nyk...@iki.fi wrote: On Nov 21, 2014, at 16:15, behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com wrote: Do you reboot in the between or are you running somekind of virtual machine? Usb headphones or what? What sound driver? I've had problems with NIC between reboots. They were cleared by removing power cord for multiple minutes while rebooting. I got rid of the problem when i updated NIC's driver (bug in driver). -- -Matti No. It happen every time I boot into linux. Gentoo or Arch. removing power helps but is annoying. its not usb, but I dont know what is called! the ordinary type! Its a realtek chip . The bug that you mentioned is related to linux driver or windows driver? I have realtek R6168/6111/6169 NIC. It works in Linux with realtek's driver not with the one included in kernel. Windows fails to initialize the NIC properly when I reboot from linux to windows. When NIC is reset by recycling power windows will be able to initialize it. Downgrading windows (7 64bit) dirver to an ancient one fixed the problem. The up-to-date realtek driver didn't work correctly. lspci -v You can check what driver kernel uses for you audio. Also the bug can be in alsa. The ways of alsa quite complicated... You are using alsa right? What error message does alsa give when you try to play audio? Well I have no problem with it in linux. It always works in linux but I think there is a problem with alsa or some other linux related part. Because I have enabled the after post sound in bios. When I power in on the headphone work. Then I login to linux and when I reboot to login to windows, the bios post sound does not come from headphone. It seems something is wrong in the linux part!
Re: [gentoo-user] headphone does not work in windows After logging to linux
On Fri, 2014-11-21 at 18:38 +0330, behrouz khosravi wrote: Well I have no problem with it in linux. It always works in linux but I think there is a problem with alsa or some other linux related part. Because I have enabled the after post sound in bios. When I power in on the headphone work. Then I login to linux and when I reboot to login to windows, the bios post sound does not come from headphone. So the question is about BIOS beep after some sort of self test, and not the audio in general? Out of curiosity. Once it is working, is it still work if you reboot several(2) times to Windows? Ivan
Re: [gentoo-user] headphone does not work in windows After logging to linux
On 21/11/2014 17:08, behrouz khosravi wrote: On Nov 21, 2014 6:23 PM, Matti Nykyri matti.nyk...@iki.fi mailto:matti.nyk...@iki.fi wrote: On Nov 21, 2014, at 16:15, behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com mailto:bz.khosr...@gmail.com wrote: Do you reboot in the between or are you running somekind of virtual machine? Usb headphones or what? What sound driver? I've had problems with NIC between reboots. They were cleared by removing power cord for multiple minutes while rebooting. I got rid of the problem when i updated NIC's driver (bug in driver). -- -Matti No. It happen every time I boot into linux. Gentoo or Arch. removing power helps but is annoying. its not usb, but I dont know what is called! the ordinary type! Its a realtek chip . The bug that you mentioned is related to linux driver or windows driver? I have realtek R6168/6111/6169 NIC. It works in Linux with realtek's driver not with the one included in kernel. Windows fails to initialize the NIC properly when I reboot from linux to windows. When NIC is reset by recycling power windows will be able to initialize it. Downgrading windows (7 64bit) dirver to an ancient one fixed the problem. The up-to-date realtek driver didn't work correctly. lspci -v You can check what driver kernel uses for you audio. Also the bug can be in alsa. The ways of alsa quite complicated... You are using alsa right? What error message does alsa give when you try to play audio? Well I have no problem with it in linux. It always works in linux but I think there is a problem with alsa or some other linux related part. Because I have enabled the after post sound in bios. When I power in on the headphone work. Then I login to linux and when I reboot to login to windows, the bios post sound does not come from headphone. It seems something is wrong in the linux part! This kind of thing is quite common actually, more so in days gone past. Speaking conceptually, what happens is something like this: Consider a driver for a hardware on any OS. That driver knows how it shuts down the hardware. It expects the hardware to be in the same state (registers, sleep state, etc) when powered back up; if so then all is good. There are supposed to be standards for these things and drivers are supposed to obey them to avoid these problems when booting other OSes (or even upgrading a driver that needs a reboot). One of your drivers (Windows or Linux) or the hardware itself is not obeying the standard, so Windows doesn't find the hardware in the state it expects and doesn't properly initialize the hardware. There are 3 ways this can go wrong: 1. The Linux driver is buggy (not 100% per spec) and doesn't shut down/power up the device properly. 2. Same with the Windows driver. 3. The hardware might not be per standard (the Windows driver will have been coded to work around it if this is the case). Usually, the Linux driver is coded per spec. Hardware often doesn't do what the spec says and Windows drivers are often shocking. It's not always true, but I find it's a good assumption to start from. You need to find a combination of various drivers in both OSes that work nice together and with the hardware. It's a trial and error process so unless someone has already solved this for you, expect to try lots of combinations. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] headphone does not work in windows After logging to linux
On Nov 21, 2014 6:50 PM, Ivan T. Ivanov iiva...@mm-sol.com wrote: On Fri, 2014-11-21 at 18:38 +0330, behrouz khosravi wrote: Well I have no problem with it in linux. It always works in linux but I think there is a problem with alsa or some other linux related part. Because I have enabled the after post sound in bios. When I power in on the headphone work. Then I login to linux and when I reboot to login to windows, the bios post sound does not come from headphone. So the question is about BIOS beep after some sort of self test, and not the audio in general? Out of curiosity. Once it is working, is it still work if you reboot several(2) times to Windows? Ivan Actually I wanted to point out that something is happening in linux and the windows is a victim this time! Booting several times into windows is ok and no sign of that problem.
Re: [gentoo-user] Iron penguin on usb?
On 11/20/14 14:40, David Abbott wrote: On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 2:21 PM, thegeezer thegee...@thegeezer.net wrote: On 19/11/14 22:15, James wrote: Hello, Ok the latest release of livedvd is here: https://www.gentoo.org/news/20140826-livedvd.xml So my understanding is you can put this on a usb stick. Run gentoo live, download packages, set flags, install packages and save them to the USB stick? So it's a portable gentoo workstation on a usb stick? https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/LiveUSB/HOWTO Likewhoa just put this together for the LiveDVD media, he is the one who builds them; https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/LiveDVD-Persistence-Mode So adding all [3] links together yields a usb gentoo image that can have additional codes installed on the usb (via persistence) and saved out as a portable demo gentoo workstation? If these 3 links are not sufficient for that, then what is missing? If so, we now have a great/easy recruiting tool for (new) folks to test out gentoo. Another questions is has anyone seen reliable/valid benchmarks on usb sticks to see which is faster? Is usb3 the fastest and they are all the same? If a workstation has abundant ram, does it make sense to boost performance via an additional ram_drive ; if so how would one go about adding that feature? Bad idea? curiously, James
Re: [gentoo-user] OT: new thinkpad with Gentoo
On 11/20/14 15:20, Daniel Frey wrote: On 11/20/2014 11:16 AM, thegeezer wrote: yeah at first it's odd, but then when you start getting used to navigating without removing hands from keyboard it does become almost a prerequisite. does anyone know if you can get usb keyboards that have the trackpoint style mini-joystick in the middle of them ? The trackball is still one of my favorite features on laptops of all time. It's a shame they do not license that trackball to other manufactures. the other big thing with the thinkpads used to be the keyboards. the x201 had a great almost totally full size keyboard, but they are increasingly becoming a thing of a bygone era with apple style calculator buttons that have nothing like the tactile response they used to have. as lenovo are moving away from these big-key style keyboards, does anyone have any recommendations of a laptop supplier that is starting to use them ? I've been looking around too and it seems like everyone's doing the chicklet keyboards. I haven't looked that hard, but almost every laptop I've found seems to have the goofy keyboards. I not sure how to categorize keyboards, but I purchased an Asus ZenBook a year ago, and it has the nicest feel I have ever experienced of any keyboard. Very thing and reliable. And Asus has a direct warranty support for one year, without any additional costs. It is simple a very wonderful lappy. ymmv. Also, take a look at aarch64 (arm) based tablets with keyboards as removable half of the device. Very cool, but make sure you get the ports you want/need. This segment of the market has new entries everyday so you'll have to google for a good and reliable model. Sven company should be adding that new 64 bit arm (amd and others) architecture support to the gentoo (handbook) docs soon. LXQT has requested arm flags in BGO, so all that new arm_stuffage should be permeating the gentoo very soon. Lastly, gentroid is a new player in this space, depending on how divergent you are willing to go. [1] hth, James [1] https://code.google.com/p/gentroid/ [2] http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/gentoo/embedded/287663
Re: [gentoo-user] The future of linux, and Gentoo specifically now
On 11/21/14 07:00, Rich Freeman wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 2:32 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: It's actually a great thing for a lot of use cases. But it doesn't seem that Gentoo will change defaults soon, although systemd works great with it. My (personal) sense is that in the medium-term we may end up moving to not having any default at all, just as with bootloaders, kernels, syslog, crontab, mail, etc. That is pretty-much the Gentoo way everywhere else when there are options. As you already pointed out, as long as somebody cares to maintain openrc and write init scripts for it, there will be support for it. Many init scripts and systemd units are contributed by outside users already, and policy is that maintainers cannot block them from being added to packages (though they do not have to write/maintain them personally). Gentoo doesn't really tend to exclude anything, and inclusion is a matter of whether somebody wants to put in the work. Rich Very wall expressed and neutral. This is an 800 lb gorilla that nobody seems to be talking about; that is embedded linux. Embedded linux now accounts for at least 20 times the number of deployments of linux than workstations and servers combined; some argue it is far more, others a bit less. Regardless, embedded linux is a force that is driving the semiconductor markets. There's not much margin on 32bit or less. etc etc. The main point of embedded linux is take what Rich has articulated above and multiply it by a billion. There is no such thing as standard embedded linux. If Systemd is successful, with very large embedded systems (dozens to hundreds of cores) then it has a future. If it fails in that space, it may survive, but not likely. It will old serve to isolate those distros that go down that path, exclusively, *imho*. Regardless, the smaller, cheaper embedded linux crowd is very unlikely to ever embrace systemd. Why? Glad you asks. Thousands of reasons, but, here are a few: It is very common in embedded (anything) to run multiple and often different rtos (real time operating system) on different embedded systems products, often to circumvent licenses, royalties, duplication, security and a plethora of other reasons. Furthermore, many embedded systems run simultaneous codes on a single core and systemd does not fit into that scheme of things, at all. So, even if gentoo becomes stupid and decides to abandon openrc. Many folks will just move to embedded (gentoo) linux and play follow the leaders with bootstrapping there cores. Rest easy as the devs fight this one out. I hope systemd survives and prospers. I can tell you one area of massive failure and that is clustering/cloud computing. Sure the big dogs with big buck are claiming to use systemd, but they only roll out binary offerings. When others try to use one of the commercial brands of linux and build a cluster/cloud from the source-codes up, there are all sorts of problems. Hmm. Very strange, batman. Very strange. What is going on, is wildly variant. YMMV. But, should I be a sporting man, my money is on the embedded folks deciding if something other than systemd survives. Why do I bet on embedded folks? Easy. I personally know of dozens of folks that code in machine, assembler all the way through any language they choose. They routinely build entire systems, custom on a wide bit of processors. Only a few of those folks are necessary to keep alternatives to systemd alive, prosperous and clearly documented. There are most likely tens of thousands of the folks around the world. Do the math. Each time one of these experts build an embedded (linux) system, it is usually optimized and so wonderful, that companies clone them in counts of thousands to millions of deployed linux systems. The fact that the majority rare require human tinkering, is both a testament to how well they run and the wisdon of these brilliant developers to keep the rank and file humanoids using winblows and OXlooser operating systems. A forking of the linux kernel would be the best thing to happen to opensource, in a very, very long time. The kernel development has become a good ole boys club imho. Embedded linux runs everywhere; so rest easy! peace, James
Re: [gentoo-user]ask for installation help!
On Fri, November 21, 2014 15:35, Paul Klos wrote: Op vrijdag, november 21, 2014 14:06:24 schreef J. Roeleveld: I use VirtualBox on my laptop for testing and haven't had to add anything to GRUB_PLATFORMS ever. Strange, I couldn't get grub2-install to run without diving into GRUB_PLATFORMS. I installed not too long ago and I've had to re-emerge grub a few times with different settings until it finally agreed to install itself. Come to think of it, I may have started out with my desktop copy of make.conf, which is configured for EFI boot. I might have a go without GRUB_PLATFORMS altogether and see what happens. Paul Unless specifically mentioned, VirtualBox does not use EFI. That could easily be the difference we are seeing. -- Joost
[gentoo-user] Re: OT: new thinkpad with Gentoo
On 2014-11-20, Stefan G. Weichinger li...@xunil.at wrote: Am 20.11.2014 um 15:37 schrieb Sid S: In a similar vein, I would suggest https://system76.com/laptops. I found them after I purchased my laptop. Had I known, I likely would have gone with them and purchased their most expensive model. For the most part, what you want is relatively hard to get with a typical consumer computer. They've gone for minimization to the point where they can't offer (or don't want to offer) the options that the majority of people would expect to exist. Interesting. I ask for thinkpads and get two answers pointing to other brands ;-) You did not ask for/about thinkpads. You said you were currently running thinkpads. You did not say that you wanted to replace them with new thinkpads, just how much you were thinking of spending on replacements. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! LBJ, LBJ, how many at JOKES did you tell today??! gmail.com
[gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
Here's one, very, very interesting proposals, under serious consideration: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Distributed_Gentoo I'd be curious what the fine and wonderful folks at gentoo_user think of this proposal. Old farts are welcome to comment, even encourage to constructively rant excellent topic, nowz ur chance to be heard! hth, James :- I'm not sure if Tequila and Rum make me a better dancer, or just makes me think that 'taking a risk or 2 on the dance floor' is a good thing. Therefore, I need, yet another Caribbean Vacation so I can collect more data, and learn of new ways to analyze that data---3
Re: [gentoo-user] The future of linux, and Gentoo specifically now
141121 Rich Freeman wrote: My personal sense is that in the medium-term we may end up moving to not having any default at all, just as with bootloaders, kernels, syslog, crontab, mail etc. That is pretty-much the Gentoo way everywhere else when there are options. As you already pointed out, as long as somebody cares to maintain openrc and write init scripts for it, there will be support for it. Many init scripts and systemd units are contributed by outside users already and policy is that maintainers cannot block them from being added to pkgs, though they do not have to write/maintain them personally. Gentoo doesn't really tend to exclude anything and inclusion is a matter of whether somebody wants to put in the work. Adoption of Systemd by other major distros sb good for Gentoo. Disgruntled Debians, Fedoras, Archies (IIRC they've also adopted it) will have a choice of giving in or moving to Slackware or Gentoo. Many of them may decide the moderate amount of extra work with Gentoo is well worth the freedom to use a more traditional init system as serious programmers, many wb able to offer help to Gentoo development. Time will tell, but probably fairly soon. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto TRANSIT`-O--O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
Re: [gentoo-user]ask for installation help!
141121 Giant Y wrote: Hello, I am a Debian user and now want to try Gentoo. The first of many, hopefully (grin) ! Others have quickly helped you solve your problem, as is typical here, but there is also the long-standing Lilo, which continues to suit me. I don't know whether it has any difficulties with Virtual Box. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto TRANSIT`-O--O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
I may be misunderstanding, but isn't this cutting back the centralized development and a pushing for more extensive use of overlays? To me overlays cause a problem with packages overlapping each other too much because its the way their maintainers' ebuilds are written. If anything, I'd suggest continued gentoo centralized development with an AUR type system that is accessible to gentoo unstable users over the top if we are just throwing ideas around. On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 11:34 AM, James wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Here's one, very, very interesting proposals, under serious consideration: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Distributed_Gentoo I'd be curious what the fine and wonderful folks at gentoo_user think of this proposal. Old farts are welcome to comment, even encourage to constructively rant excellent topic, nowz ur chance to be heard! hth, James :- I'm not sure if Tequila and Rum make me a better dancer, or just makes me think that 'taking a risk or 2 on the dance floor' is a good thing. Therefore, I need, yet another Caribbean Vacation so I can collect more data, and learn of new ways to analyze that data---3
[gentoo-user] I shoot into my own feet: dhcpd installed...
Hi, (still struggling with my Arietta board...;) I did something really stupid: I emerged dhcpd on my Arietta G25 board (which runs Gentoo of course :) and rebooted...without configuring it (or anything else). BEFORE this [CENSORED] action /etc/conf.d/net was set to assign a static IP to usb0, which works. Now the boards still boots fine ... but I cannot access it, because the usb0 gets no IP. First thing I want to get back is the static IP settings I had before I installed dhcpd. I grepped through /etc to find any hint, where the decision is made to start dhcpd, I renamed different 'dhcpd*.*'-files to disable the start of dhcpd...but now I only get 'lo' running...no usb0 at all. Where can I disable dhcpd so the static IP settings get reactivated (since the system is not accessable, I cannot unemerge dhcpd)? Thank you very much in advance for any help! Best regards, mcc
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:34 PM, James wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Here's one, very, very interesting proposals, under serious consideration: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Distributed_Gentoo I'd be curious what the fine and wonderful folks at gentoo_user think of this proposal. Old farts are welcome to comment, even encourage to constructively rant Honestly, I think it is a bit optimistic, though something I'd love to see. I'm more of a fan of getting the new working before dismantling the old, and I'm not keen on proposals that start out with gutting what we already have before there is anything new to replace it. Burning bridges usually isn't wise. The optimistic bit is that the proposal is that the only part of Gentoo that would actually be developed centrally are the parts that almost nobody is working on today. That basically amounts to just having all the developers quit, and hoping that they all move on to work on overlays instead of moving on to something else. There are a lot of technical challenges in such an approach - supporting overlays isn't all that unlike trying to provide kernel internal API stability. I think it could be done better, but it would be a big change. IMHO it makes far more sense to make those changes and use them for our own internal benefit in the main repository, and THEN think about whether the main repository is still needed. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] The future of linux, and Gentoo specifically now
On 11/21/14 07:31, Marc Stürmer wrote: Am 21.11.2014 um 08:17 schrieb Paige Thompson: I just read an article that says systemd is taking over linux and linux is not linux anymore: http://blog.lusis.org/blog/2014/11/20/systemd-redux/ I kinda have to agree which is partially why I'm not using it. Will Gentoo have any plans of forcing its users to move to systemd or will I always (such as its always roughly been) have the option of using init and openrc as it is now? I personally have no reasons currently to You've been on this list for surely long enough to know, that systemd will always be optional for Gentoo users with Openrc not going away too soon as the default. Being on the list hasn't done me any favors in terms of knowing architectural plans are to be made. I personally want to believe systemd will always be optional but I wouldn't rely on that since it's not my call but I understand that it would have to be fairly mutual amongst other maintainers. I was hoping this e-mail would find some of those people. I remember a time when devfs support was dropped from Gentoo in favor of udev. I don't remember why but it seems udev is on everything now.. sound familiar? It wasn't that big of a switch for me.. I think there might have been maybe one or two packages that it affected that I cared about. On the other hand, today I am a bit more saavy than back then and I don't really feel like systemd offers anything that I want and it seems to be followed by a lot of security problems that I don't need. I don't want to perpetuate ignorance, so correct me if I'm wrong. It seems like for me specifically to switch to systemd would mean to take on a lot more complexity than I need if I'm already happy with what I've got? Asides from where systemd is useful outside of cgroups for virtualization I fail to understand how process accounting is useful in any other context except for multi-user environments--public shell servers? I guess I'll have to do some more reading to understand. It's just nice to know what I have to look forward to in advance. I have a friend who seems certain that systemd is inevitable despite being satisfied with openrc. Not trying to troll or force ignorant/zealous issues. Thanks -Paige
Re: [gentoo-user] The future of linux, and Gentoo specifically now
On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:39 PM, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Regardless, the smaller, cheaper embedded linux crowd is very unlikely to ever embrace systemd. Why? Glad you asks. Thousands of reasons, but, here are a few: It is very common in embedded (anything) to run multiple and often different rtos (real time operating system) on different embedded systems products, often to circumvent licenses, royalties, duplication, security and a plethora of other reasons. Furthermore, many embedded systems run simultaneous codes on a single core and systemd does not fit into that scheme of things, at all. Embedded is a VERY broad term. I agree that systemd isn't applicable in all of these cases, but honestly in the cases where it doesn't apply I don't see something like openrc or even sysvinit being a great solution. For the more PC-like appliance something like systemd is fairly compelling once it matures, because it is basically a standardized collection of stuff designed to work together. You could look at it a bit like busybox in that regard. This argument is also a bit like saying that since most embedded devices don't have high-res displays, X11 and Wayland are dead-end technologies. The reality is that embedded tends to do things differently - it is related to your typical desktop distro, but not really in pure competition. Look at it another way - the most popular PID 1 on Gentoo-derived systems isn't even in the main portage repository. I'm speaking of course of Chromebooks, which run Upstart. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] The future of linux, and Gentoo specifically now
On 11/21/14 07:32, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 1:17 AM, Paige Thompson erra...@yourstruly.sx wrote: I just read an article that says systemd is taking over linux and linux is not linux anymore: http://blog.lusis.org/blog/2014/11/20/systemd-redux/ I highly recommend the article John Corbet wrote for LWN a week ago: http://lwn.net/Articles/619992/ TL;DR, the sky is not falling, let's see how systemd evolves and succeds, fails, or it's replaced. I kinda have to agree which is partially why I'm not using it. Will Gentoo have any plans of forcing its users to move to systemd or will I always (such as its always roughly been) have the option of using init and openrc as it is now? As long as there are developers willing and able to support OpenRC in Gentoo (and it looks like there are), that will be the case. To make sure that this remains to be true, help them. I personally have no reasons currently to switch from one to the other. It seems like it might be a great thing if you have linux containers. It's actually a great thing for a lot of use cases. But it doesn't seem that Gentoo will change defaults soon, although systemd works great with it. Regards. Great article, I should merely point out it's ridiculous that people get so bent out of shape over computer software. It contrasted the transition of devfs to udev well which I can relate to and thought of in my previous response. I was trying to explain I don't really know enough about either systemd or openrc to say whether or not support for one or the other will ever be dropped. My deal is I have everything I want setup, it works and I want to leave it that way. I deal with security problems and updates proactively and on a case-by-case and as-per-needed basis. I'm not looking forward to migrating to systemd if I don't need to but I will if that's what it takes to get back to my real work with the peace of mind that I can still install new software if I choose to and actually be able to use it.
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
On 11/21/14 18:14, Rich Freeman wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:34 PM, James wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Here's one, very, very interesting proposals, under serious consideration: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Distributed_Gentoo I'd be curious what the fine and wonderful folks at gentoo_user think of this proposal. Old farts are welcome to comment, even encourage to constructively rant Honestly, I think it is a bit optimistic, though something I'd love to see. I'm more of a fan of getting the new working before dismantling the old, and I'm not keen on proposals that start out with gutting what we already have before there is anything new to replace it. Burning bridges usually isn't wise. The optimistic bit is that the proposal is that the only part of Gentoo that would actually be developed centrally are the parts that almost nobody is working on today. That basically amounts to just having all the developers quit, and hoping that they all move on to work on overlays instead of moving on to something else. There are a lot of technical challenges in such an approach - supporting overlays isn't all that unlike trying to provide kernel internal API stability. I think it could be done better, but it would be a big change. IMHO it makes far more sense to make those changes and use them for our own internal benefit in the main repository, and THEN think about whether the main repository is still needed. -- Rich With regards to distributed gentoo; to me this sounds like gentoo already. Overlays / layman repositories. I even have my own overlay that is listed publicly for anybody to add: https://github.com/paigeadele/netcrave Which goes to say, the obvious should be assumed since anybody can have their own publicly listed overlay, you should know what's in it before you add it--it's a fairly autonomous system but you have to ask to get publicly to get your repo publicly list and If it were any easier, it would probably get abused. Technically you can even use git to manage your entire / filesystem if you want but it would be more productive to write your .gitignore to ignore all, then conditionally un-ignore things that need to be tracked thereafter. I did this but only for /etc because I've gotten tired of hunting down HOWTOs and more often than not a simple example is more than what I need to get stuff done: https://github.com/paigeadele/laptop.paigeat.info_etc/blob/master/.gitignore Honestly though I kinda wish I had done this from the top most directory, there are things here and there outside of /etc that I'd like to keep for reference or whatever reason. You can pretty much do whatever you want with gentoo, its up to you to decide whether or not to.
Re: [gentoo-user] OT: new thinkpad with Gentoo
On Thu, 20 Nov 2014, thegeezer wrote: On 20/11/14 18:19, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote: But I like that trackpoint yeah at first it's odd, but then when you start getting used to navigating without removing hands from keyboard it does become almost a prerequisite. Just that it's pretty useless with the touchpad below that's now missing real mouse buttons to use together with the trackpoint. At least I haven't managed to configure it in a useful way for my T540p. P.
Re: [gentoo-user] The future of linux, and Gentoo specifically now
On 11/21/14 17:39, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: On 11/21/14 07:00, Rich Freeman wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 2:32 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: It's actually a great thing for a lot of use cases. But it doesn't seem that Gentoo will change defaults soon, although systemd works great with it. My (personal) sense is that in the medium-term we may end up moving to not having any default at all, just as with bootloaders, kernels, syslog, crontab, mail, etc. That is pretty-much the Gentoo way everywhere else when there are options. As you already pointed out, as long as somebody cares to maintain openrc and write init scripts for it, there will be support for it. Many init scripts and systemd units are contributed by outside users already, and policy is that maintainers cannot block them from being added to packages (though they do not have to write/maintain them personally). Gentoo doesn't really tend to exclude anything, and inclusion is a matter of whether somebody wants to put in the work. Rich Very wall expressed and neutral. This is an 800 lb gorilla that nobody seems to be talking about; that is embedded linux. Embedded linux now accounts for at least 20 times the number of deployments of linux than workstations and servers combined; some argue it is far more, others a bit less. Regardless, embedded linux is a force that is driving the semiconductor markets. There's not much margin on 32bit or less. etc etc. The main point of embedded linux is take what Rich has articulated above and multiply it by a billion. There is no such thing as standard embedded linux. If Systemd is successful, with very large embedded systems (dozens to hundreds of cores) then it has a future. If it fails in that space, it may survive, but not likely. It will old serve to isolate those distros that go down that path, exclusively, *imho*. Regardless, the smaller, cheaper embedded linux crowd is very unlikely to ever embrace systemd. Why? Glad you asks. Thousands of reasons, but, here are a few: It is very common in embedded (anything) to run multiple and often different rtos (real time operating system) on different embedded systems products, often to circumvent licenses, royalties, duplication, security and a plethora of other reasons. Furthermore, many embedded systems run simultaneous codes on a single core and systemd does not fit into that scheme of things, at all. So, even if gentoo becomes stupid and decides to abandon openrc. Many folks will just move to embedded (gentoo) linux and play follow the leaders with bootstrapping there cores. Rest easy as the devs fight this one out. I hope systemd survives and prospers. I can tell you one area of massive failure and that is clustering/cloud computing. Sure the big dogs with big buck are claiming to use systemd, but they only roll out binary offerings. When others try to use one of the commercial brands of linux and build a cluster/cloud from the source-codes up, there are all sorts of problems. Hmm. Very strange, batman. Very strange. What is going on, is wildly variant. YMMV. But, should I be a sporting man, my money is on the embedded folks deciding if something other than systemd survives. Why do I bet on embedded folks? Easy. I personally know of dozens of folks that code in machine, assembler all the way through any language they choose. They routinely build entire systems, custom on a wide bit of processors. Only a few of those folks are necessary to keep alternatives to systemd alive, prosperous and clearly documented. There are most likely tens of thousands of the folks around the world. Do the math. Each time one of these experts build an embedded (linux) system, it is usually optimized and so wonderful, that companies clone them in counts of thousands to millions of deployed linux systems. The fact that the majority rare require human tinkering, is both a testament to how well they run and the wisdon of these brilliant developers to keep the rank and file humanoids using winblows and OXlooser operating systems. A forking of the linux kernel would be the best thing to happen to opensource, in a very, very long time. The kernel development has become a good ole boys club imho. Embedded linux runs everywhere; so rest easy! peace, James I hope for this to be the case
Re: [gentoo-user] The future of linux, and Gentoo specifically now
On 11/21/14 18:20, Rich Freeman wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:39 PM, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Regardless, the smaller, cheaper embedded linux crowd is very unlikely to ever embrace systemd. Why? Glad you asks. Thousands of reasons, but, here are a few: It is very common in embedded (anything) to run multiple and often different rtos (real time operating system) on different embedded systems products, often to circumvent licenses, royalties, duplication, security and a plethora of other reasons. Furthermore, many embedded systems run simultaneous codes on a single core and systemd does not fit into that scheme of things, at all. Embedded is a VERY broad term. I agree that systemd isn't applicable in all of these cases, but honestly in the cases where it doesn't apply I don't see something like openrc or even sysvinit being a great solution. For the more PC-like appliance something like systemd is fairly compelling once it matures, because it is basically a standardized collection of stuff designed to work together. You could look at it a bit like busybox in that regard. This argument is also a bit like saying that since most embedded devices don't have high-res displays, X11 and Wayland are dead-end technologies. The reality is that embedded tends to do things differently - it is related to your typical desktop distro, but not really in pure competition. Look at it another way - the most popular PID 1 on Gentoo-derived systems isn't even in the main portage repository. I'm speaking of course of Chromebooks, which run Upstart. -- Rich I'm actually familiar with android / Qualcomm stuff and QuRT as well as OKL4. Honestly if it meant a substitute for QuRT could be made available to the public I'd say use whatever-- I'll never buy another device until then. Besides, I'm not sure at which point it became okay to buy a $400+ device use it for 6 months and then throw it in the trash and buy another but I won't be a part of that.
Re: [gentoo-user] OT: new thinkpad with Gentoo
Am 21.11.2014 um 20:06 schrieb Peter Weilbacher: On 20/11/14 18:19, Stefan G. Weichinger wrote: But I like that trackpoint yeah at first it's odd, but then when you start getting used to navigating without removing hands from keyboard it does become almost a prerequisite. Just that it's pretty useless with the touchpad below that's now missing real mouse buttons to use together with the trackpoint. At least I haven't managed to configure it in a useful way for my T540p. ah, ok, my 2 pads still have real buttons. I will consider this if I really get into buying new stuff.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: OT: new thinkpad with Gentoo
Am 21.11.2014 um 18:25 schrieb Grant Edwards: Interesting. I ask for thinkpads and get two answers pointing to other brands ;-) You did not ask for/about thinkpads. You said you were currently running thinkpads. You did not say that you wanted to replace them with new thinkpads, just how much you were thinking of spending on replacements. might be ;-) Thanks for this logical analysis ... ;-) The subject says new thinkpad ... but, anyway ;-)
Re: [gentoo-user] OT: new thinkpad with Gentoo
Am 20.11.2014 um 21:16 schrieb Daniel Frey: On 11/20/2014 11:16 AM, thegeezer wrote: yeah at first it's odd, but then when you start getting used to navigating without removing hands from keyboard it does become almost a prerequisite. does anyone know if you can get usb keyboards that have the trackpoint style mini-joystick in the middle of them ? Yep: http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/itemdetails/0B47190/460/60AC6A0372B14F5BA7B12F1FF88E33C7 I almost bought this one but I wanted a usb port on my keyboard itself for my mouse, IIRC this one didn't have that. I have used a lenovo keyboard with it, I liked it, just wish it had a USB port for the mouse. I am using a Lenovo keyboard (USB Keyboard SK-8815) for my main workstation for years now. Still working fine. It does not bring a trackpoint but has 2 USB ports and some special function keys I never managed to get working ... maybe I should take another approach as it might be supported for months and years now. Stefan
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
On 11/21/14 14:00, Paige Thompson wrote: On 11/21/14 18:14, Rich Freeman wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:34 PM, James wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Here's one, very, very interesting proposals, under serious consideration: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Distributed_Gentoo I'd be curious what the fine and wonderful folks at gentoo_user think of this proposal. Old farts are welcome to comment, even encourage to constructively rant Honestly, I think it is a bit optimistic, though something I'd love to see. I'm more of a fan of getting the new working before dismantling the old, and I'm not keen on proposals that start out with gutting what we already have before there is anything new to replace it. Burning bridges usually isn't wise. The optimistic bit is that the proposal is that the only part of Gentoo that would actually be developed centrally are the parts that almost nobody is working on today. That basically amounts to just having all the developers quit, and hoping that they all move on to work on overlays instead of moving on to something else. Interesting perspective that I had not considered... still, I think there is more at play here. It sounds as if a few chosen old guard are going to kick out more of the progressive and newer devs so that these few. control the core distro. That way they can agree and do what they want. There are a lot of technical challenges in such an approach - supporting overlays isn't all that unlike trying to provide kernel internal API stability. I think it could be done better, but it would be a big change. IMHO it makes far more sense to make those changes and use them for our own internal benefit in the main repository, and THEN think about whether the main repository is still needed. Agreeded. In fact if one reads the threads on gentoo-dev that lead to this document, one get's a bit more of the picture that is going to be a very large undertaking, and many, more robust tools will need to be developed, to support this (2 tier) system proposal. aka, actually until gentoo current is mature and stablized, it's a very, very bad idea, imho. -- Rich With regards to distributed gentoo; to me this sounds like gentoo already. Overlays / layman repositories. I even have my own overlay that is listed publicly for anybody to add: https://github.com/paigeadele/netcrave On the surface, yes. The way it will work out, no; hell no. There will be no new devs moving into the core, unless the few bless them and they will be clones of the existing dev mentalities that have been the source of gentoo limitations, imho. The question is this: Is gentoo a boys club or an open source evolving/morphing/multi-faceted jaugernaut we all know and love. This porposal has good intentions, but is barking up the wrong tree. Which goes to say, the obvious should be assumed since anybody can have their own publicly listed overlay, you should know what's in it before you add it--it's a fairly autonomous system but you have to ask to get publicly to get your repo publicly list and If it were any easier, it would probably get abused. True, very true, but trivial in the deeper context of who and how the future of gentoo is steered, imho. i.e. what you are pointing out merely today's noise. Technically you can even use git to manage your entire / filesystem if you want but it would be more productive to write your .gitignore to ignore all, then conditionally un-ignore things that need to be tracked thereafter. I did this but only for /etc because I've gotten tired of hunting down HOWTOs and more often than not a simple example is more than what I need to get stuff done: https://github.com/paigeadele/laptop.paigeat.info_etc/blob/master/.gitignore Honestly though I kinda wish I had done this from the top most directory, there are things here and there outside of /etc that I'd like to keep for reference or whatever reason. More truth, but it misses what is really at play here. You can pretty much do whatever you want with gentoo, its up to you to decide whether or not to. TRUE, but it becomes a power struggle, just like what is occurring presently with openrc vs systemd. Take the JAVA example. Java a core, fundamental technology in many linux distros, Android probably being the most visiable (my def of linux is if you use the linux kernel, it's linux, forget everthing else), ymmv. Java over the years has never risen to the level of respect and support it deserves in gentoo, because of a few core gentoo_master that hate Java. I hate oracle too, but not java. Please do not think what I'm about to say about gentoo or Java, is in any way a slight against those devs that support java or any other gentoo dev. It's just a common prejudice (lack of respect) against java for a very wide variety of reasons. So if a motivated group, comes together, we fix up java and create many, many tool and packages that are wonderful, powerful and
Re: [gentoo-user] Iron penguin on usb?
On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 11:59:13 -0500, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: If so, we now have a great/easy recruiting tool for (new) folks to test out gentoo. Another questions is has anyone seen reliable/valid benchmarks on usb sticks to see which is faster? Is usb3 the fastest and they are all the same? I did some ad hoc tests with USB3 sticks recently and found them roughly twice as fast a USB2 stick, or when connected to a USB2 port. -- Neil Bothwick Three kinds of people: those who can count and those who can't. pgpRpFUf1bkkw.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 5:40 PM, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Interesting perspective that I had not considered... still, I think there is more at play here. It sounds as if a few chosen old guard are going to kick out more of the progressive and newer devs so that these few. control the core distro. That way they can agree and do what they want. Where are you getting this stuff? People seem to talk about old guard Gentoo devs blocking contributions, but the very few times anything remotely resembling this gets pointed out the Council has stepped in to remove obstructions. There are of course a few long-running personality conflicts that flare up from time to time, and attempts at obstructionism, but they tend to get shot down which is as it should be. If somebody feels otherwise then they really need to step up and call attention to it. Simply complaining about being oppressed is really just being part of the problem. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] The future of linux, and Gentoo specifically now
Am Fri, 21 Nov 2014 01:32:16 -0600 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com: [...] I highly recommend the article John Corbet wrote for LWN a week ago: http://lwn.net/Articles/619992/ [...] Thanks for the link, it was a good read. FWIW, I found this linked in one of the comments: http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ProSystemdAntiSystemd/ Both articles echo thoughts that I have more and more with every discussion regarding systemd. My takeaway is similar to that of the lwn.net article (that is, both sides are being unnecessarily thick-headed), and find it remarkable how much I recognise from discussions here on gentoo-user (in contrast, gentoo-amd64 has been much more level-headed). However, I disagree with with the categorisation at the end, mainly because I hate it when people have to sort each other into camps, so that they know who to hate and who to like (which isn't the author's fault, I think, politicised discussions tend to go that way as they intensify), but also because I think it is too strict and doesn't account for overlap (for myself I see reasons for both being and not being in either group). Greetings -- Marc Joliet -- People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we don't - Bjarne Stroustrup signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
On 11/21/14 17:10, Rich Freeman wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 5:40 PM, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Interesting perspective that I had not considered... still, I think there is more at play here. It sounds as if a few chosen old guard are going to kick out more of the progressive and newer devs so that these few. control the core distro. That way they can agree and do what they want. Where are you getting this stuff? People seem to talk about old guard Gentoo devs blocking contributions, but the very few times anything remotely resembling this gets pointed out the Council has stepped in to remove obstructions. There are of course a few long-running personality conflicts that flare up from time to time, and attempts at obstructionism, but they tend to get shot down which is as it should be. If somebody feels otherwise then they really need to step up and call attention to it. Simply complaining about being oppressed is really just being part of the problem. -- Rich I have repetitively ask why java is treated like a second class citizen here at gentoo. Is anyone close any of those old deprecated java bugs? I just wonder why the rank and file devs do not like java? Why the devs do not celebrate Java? Here's an old rah rah from a council member that is perfect: http://dberkholz.com/2013/03/14/opportunities-for-gentoo/ But since clustering is now java centric, it seems to be unimportant? Cluster codes are put in the science project now? Apathy runs deep with anything that touches java, here at Gentoo. Sure there is sys-cluster, but it is dying on gentoo; very little activity. For me, and many others, clustering is the future not only of linux, but computing, personal devices and everything. Clouds are merely a contract cluster. A clustering is far more important that the linux kernel, imho. In a few years everyone will run on a cluster (systems they control) or on the cloud (a cluster brought to you by a global conglomerate), and the linux kernel will be but one mechanism to plug into your cluster. Winblos will have their path, as will apple, android, samsung, qualcomm, ibm, verizon, ATT etc etc. Booting will be multi-variant. Once you ethernet is live, you plug into your cluster and the cluster masters your hardware. That is how cell phones work today. What you run on your screen will be what you want, or what vendors insist you run. Most will be OS/bios/kernel agnostic. But hey, we don't do java here at Gentoo. Let's move it to an overlay and be done with it? That and let's move science to an overlay, is what I see in this proposal. It's what the end result of gentoo policy is and for me, science and java are the future for Gentoo, if it is to be robustly embraced. I could think of some things to move to overlays that would surely upset others that seem them as core. Systemd will no doubt be (eventually) very successful at collapsing many if not most linux distros, imho. I just like to wrap all of this in a conspiracy flavouring; hopefully some devs will jump into java, fix it up and let's give it a proper place in the gentoo structure? What if somebody wants to develop a PM or PMS using java on gentoo. You think that person would receive a 'warm welcome' as in lots of help, code snippets and partners among the gentoo elites? How does your council feel about that? How many council member have added java packages or closed java bugs? Sure they have work on other things they do not like, but hell no to java? How about a 'java week where the brightest java devs devote just one week to java? (gnashing of teeth?). I visible proposed just flushing several hundred of the old java bugs, because their issues, or the related codes are deprecated. I got nothing back from anyone but silence. The java leadership even admitted that there is nobody, that currently 'gives a shit' enough to close java bugs. How about authorizing a few dozen folks to close java bugs. Why do you have to be a dev to close bugs in BGO? Surely since java is not in the main stream I can close a few java bugs? Please give me one week to close java bugs, and clean up java in BGO. It'll be less than one hundred left, I promise you. Piss on that arcane crap criteria impose on this effort, by folks that care nothing about java. Just give me the torch, and I'll clear a path forward for java; but I am going to ignore most of the crap burden you have to wade through on BGO to close only java bugs.If you do not like what I close, keep a copy and bring them back? Surely one or 2 other folks care about those 5+ year old java bugs? After all, if they are valid, they get posted again, with information from as least the current decade. What do I have to do, beg? It sure looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck and I believe I hear quacking from this latest wacky (dev) idea to move most devs and most packages to second class status; as pure quackery. Medically, from a
Re: [gentoo-user] headphone does not work in windows After logging to linux
On Friday 21 Nov 2014 15:24:43 Alan McKinnon wrote: On 21/11/2014 17:08, behrouz khosravi wrote: On Nov 21, 2014 6:23 PM, Matti Nykyri matti.nyk...@iki.fi mailto:matti.nyk...@iki.fi wrote: On Nov 21, 2014, at 16:15, behrouz khosravi bz.khosr...@gmail.com mailto:bz.khosr...@gmail.com wrote: Do you reboot in the between or are you running somekind of virtual machine? Usb headphones or what? What sound driver? I've had problems with NIC between reboots. They were cleared by removing power cord for multiple minutes while rebooting. I got rid of the problem when i updated NIC's driver (bug in driver). No. It happen every time I boot into linux. Gentoo or Arch. removing power helps but is annoying. its not usb, but I dont know what is called! the ordinary type! Its a realtek chip . The bug that you mentioned is related to linux driver or windows driver? I have realtek R6168/6111/6169 NIC. It works in Linux with realtek's driver not with the one included in kernel. Windows fails to initialize the NIC properly when I reboot from linux to windows. When NIC is reset by recycling power windows will be able to initialize it. Downgrading windows (7 64bit) dirver to an ancient one fixed the problem. The up-to-date realtek driver didn't work correctly. lspci -v You can check what driver kernel uses for you audio. Also the bug can be in alsa. The ways of alsa quite complicated... You are using alsa right? What error message does alsa give when you try to play audio? Well I have no problem with it in linux. It always works in linux but I think there is a problem with alsa or some other linux related part. Because I have enabled the after post sound in bios. When I power in on the headphone work. Then I login to linux and when I reboot to login to windows, the bios post sound does not come from headphone. It seems something is wrong in the linux part! This kind of thing is quite common actually, more so in days gone past. Speaking conceptually, what happens is something like this: Consider a driver for a hardware on any OS. That driver knows how it shuts down the hardware. It expects the hardware to be in the same state (registers, sleep state, etc) when powered back up; if so then all is good. There are supposed to be standards for these things and drivers are supposed to obey them to avoid these problems when booting other OSes (or even upgrading a driver that needs a reboot). One of your drivers (Windows or Linux) or the hardware itself is not obeying the standard, so Windows doesn't find the hardware in the state it expects and doesn't properly initialize the hardware. There are 3 ways this can go wrong: 1. The Linux driver is buggy (not 100% per spec) and doesn't shut down/power up the device properly. 2. Same with the Windows driver. 3. The hardware might not be per standard (the Windows driver will have been coded to work around it if this is the case). Usually, the Linux driver is coded per spec. Hardware often doesn't do what the spec says and Windows drivers are often shocking. It's not always true, but I find it's a good assumption to start from. You need to find a combination of various drivers in both OSes that work nice together and with the hardware. It's a trial and error process so unless someone has already solved this for you, expect to try lots of combinations. On a Dell XPS laptop on occasions I used to find that there was no sound. If I booted into MSWindows the OS would reset the sound, without having to login to a desktop and all would be fine thereafter. Quite a random event, but thankfully I haven't had this problem for a few months now. Perhaps the alsa drivers got better with time. Now if this Radeon kernel regression problem were to go away too so that I can hibernate, I would be quite happy. :-p -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 7:13 PM, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: On 11/21/14 17:10, Rich Freeman wrote: On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 5:40 PM, wirel...@tampabay.rr.com wrote: Interesting perspective that I had not considered... still, I think there is more at play here. It sounds as if a few chosen old guard are going to kick out more of the progressive and newer devs so that these few. control the core distro. That way they can agree and do what they want. Where are you getting this stuff? People seem to talk about old guard Gentoo devs blocking contributions, but the very few times anything remotely resembling this gets pointed out the Council has stepped in to remove obstructions. I have repetitively ask why java is treated like a second class citizen here at gentoo. Is anyone close any of those old deprecated java bugs? I just wonder why the rank and file devs do not like java? Why the devs do not celebrate Java? If nobody is maintaining Java it is because nobody wants to maintain Java. You suggested that established developers were preventing new ones from doing some things. The problem with Java is that there simply aren't that many developers interested in it at all. Gentoo devs work on whatever they want to work on. They aren't paid employees. I just like to wrap all of this in a conspiracy flavouring; hopefully some devs will jump into java, fix it up and let's give it a proper place in the gentoo structure? What if somebody wants to develop a PM or PMS using java on gentoo. You think that person would receive a 'warm welcome' as in lots of help, code snippets and partners among the gentoo elites? If you want to write a java PM just do it. You seem to be complaining that nobody is writing one for you. I'm sure there are plenty of Gentoo devs and non-devs who would be happy to talk to you about writing one if you're willing to pay them for their time. Otherwise, this is a volunteer effort and people work on what they want to work on. That isn't some kind of evil conspiracy. Nobody is going to prevent a Gentoo developer from putting a java-based package manager in the tree as long as it doesn't contain security bugs/etc. They may or may not get any help with doing it, and that just reflects that people work on what they want to. How does your council feel about that? How many council member have added java packages or closed java bugs? Sure they have work on other things they do not like, but hell no to java? How about a 'java week where the brightest java devs devote just one week to java? (gnashing of teeth?). Well, I can speak only for myself (as a Council member). I've never worked on java packages or closed java bugs (well, maybe I've done a stable request or two as part of an arch team, but that isn't really what you're talking about). Like most other devs I work on the things that interest me or which I care about. For the most part, java is not among them, though I do maintain the android sdk which is java-based. How about authorizing a few dozen folks to close java bugs. Why do you have to be a dev to close bugs in BGO? So, first you'll need to find a few dozen folks who are interested in closing java bugs. Second, you don't have to be a dev to close bugs in BGO, but you do need to be given access, and that does mean that you'll have to work with somebody with some kind of guidelines around what you'll be doing. Arch testers have editbugs privs and they aren't devs, for example, but they follow rules like everybody else. It sure looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck and I believe I hear quacking from this latest wacky (dev) idea to move most devs and most packages to second class status; as pure quackery. Medically, from a medical dictionary that is about 50 years old, the most correct diagnostic is imbecilic. Well, go take that up with the dev proposing this. I'm not suggesting that anything should be excluded from the main tree, and so far I've only seen a single Gentoo dev suggest that. I do support making it easier to maintain stuff outside the tree. Devs are allowed to post on the lists. When one dev posts an idea that doesn't mean that the entire distribution is going to reverse directions. I think that java and clustering on gentoo are dying, because the leadership environment makes it difficult for them to proper. How many java bugs have you close, during 2014? Zero. That's about as many as I'm likely to close in 2015. Nobody in the Gentoo leadership is keeping anybody from closing Java bugs. There just aren't that many devs interested in working on them. If you want to work on them, you might consider becoming a dev, or working on them in an overlay (which is a good way to become a dev, actually). You seem to be under the impression that Gentoo devs work on things that the Gentoo leadership tells them to work on. That is hardly the case, many of our most important packages are also
