Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
On 06/11/19 00:50, mad.scientist.at.la...@tutanota.com wrote: > Spam filters are pathetic, they rarely catch spam. Mine actually marks my > own post to this list as spam and puts them in the spam folder, along with > other messages sporadically. Yahoo cough cough ... I had a throwaway yahoo account. The ONLY mail that got through the spam filters was them spamming me. All the mail that I set up the account specifically to receive ended up in the spam folder. Cheers, Wol
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
Mick wrote: > On Wednesday, 6 November 2019 00:39:43 GMT Dale wrote: >> Grant Taylor wrote: >>> On 11/1/19 2:00 PM, Dale wrote: I think we came to the conclusion that one person is causing this. >>> I don't agree with that conclusion. >> The only message I noticed missing was from one person. Since they are >> coming from one person, that is the cause. If the messages was from >> more than one person, then maybe there could be another conclusion. > Correlation does not equal causation. Any one having similar email headers > could cause a message to be flagged as spam, or to be rejected by the > recipients mail server. Thankfully the M/L informs us messages from the list > to us were bounced and we can look at the online M/L archives to see what the > message might have been. Some email ISP services are not as obliging though > - > see below. > > ANECDOTAL OBSERVATIONS: > > I've noticed recently even using the same sender address, but a different > mail > client, could cause the difference between the message being accepted or > rejected by the recipient's mail server. I had to send an innocuous message > containing only plain text and a couple of URLs to a group of senders, with > their individual addresses in BCC: to ensure they remained anonymous among > themselves. > > Two of the recipients' mail servers bounced my message with a "554 Message > Rejected". I tried again, this time sending the same message body, with the > same email client (KMail) to each of the two recipients individually. Same > deal: "554 Message Rejected" from both. > > Then I used the Gmail webmail GUI to send the same message body to each > recipient and to my surprise it was accepted by their mail server and > delivered to their Inbox. Until that point they were none the wiser of my > repeated attempts to email the information they had requested. > > Using KMail configured to use smtp.gmail.com Vs using Gmail's webmail > generates slightly different headers and I surmised this is all there was to > my message being rejected in the first two attempts. But still, as far as I can tell, all the recent bounced messages were from one person. Whether it is the client that person uses, software, IP or some other reason, it was one person that was being bounced. If it was more than one person, then I could agree that it may affect others but in this case, it isn't. Barring other people having their emails bounced in the same way, I'm still in the camp that that person is the cause, for whatever reason. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
On Wednesday, 6 November 2019 00:39:43 GMT Dale wrote: > Grant Taylor wrote: > > On 11/1/19 2:00 PM, Dale wrote: > >> I think we came to the conclusion that one person is causing this. > > > > I don't agree with that conclusion. > > The only message I noticed missing was from one person. Since they are > coming from one person, that is the cause. If the messages was from > more than one person, then maybe there could be another conclusion. Correlation does not equal causation. Any one having similar email headers could cause a message to be flagged as spam, or to be rejected by the recipients mail server. Thankfully the M/L informs us messages from the list to us were bounced and we can look at the online M/L archives to see what the message might have been. Some email ISP services are not as obliging though - see below. ANECDOTAL OBSERVATIONS: I've noticed recently even using the same sender address, but a different mail client, could cause the difference between the message being accepted or rejected by the recipient's mail server. I had to send an innocuous message containing only plain text and a couple of URLs to a group of senders, with their individual addresses in BCC: to ensure they remained anonymous among themselves. Two of the recipients' mail servers bounced my message with a "554 Message Rejected". I tried again, this time sending the same message body, with the same email client (KMail) to each of the two recipients individually. Same deal: "554 Message Rejected" from both. Then I used the Gmail webmail GUI to send the same message body to each recipient and to my surprise it was accepted by their mail server and delivered to their Inbox. Until that point they were none the wiser of my repeated attempts to email the information they had requested. Using KMail configured to use smtp.gmail.com Vs using Gmail's webmail generates slightly different headers and I surmised this is all there was to my message being rejected in the first two attempts. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
A lot of the time, even with SPF, DKIM etc your messages will be marked as spam if you have a PGP signature, PDF file, or anything else and are sending from an unusual domain (ie not gmail/microsoft hosted domain). My messages do it all the time. Gregory 'Rudi' Rudolph r...@x.nightmare.haus (518) 888-6156 Verify PGP Signature via https://keybase.io/verify I am Rudi9719 This email message and attachment(s) may contain sensitive and/or proprietary information and is intended only for the person(s) to whom this email message is addressed. If you have received this email message in error, please notify the sender immediately and destroy the original message without making a copy. Please do not transmit any sensitive, proprietary, ITARS or FOUO data via e-mail without using approved encryption techniques. On 11/5/19 7:50 PM, mad.scientist.at.la...@tutanota.com wrote: > Spam filters are pathetic, they rarely catch spam. Mine actually marks my > own post to this list as spam and puts them in the spam folder, along with > other messages sporadically. If you want to stop spam use a "black list" of > open relays, that works. It also helps if you aggressively report it to all > admins in the mail chain and any one hosting them. I know I've been on the > "don't spam this guy" list, they quickly figure out that some people will > bust them hard and quick! On my other email account (different provider) > I've turned the spam filter off with no problems. It also helps if you don't > use antisocial media. > > -- “The whole world is watching! The whole world is watching!” > > > > Nov 5, 2019, 17:39 by rdalek1...@gmail.com: > Grant Taylor wrote: > On 11/1/19 2:00 PM, Dale wrote: > I think we came to the conclusion that one person is causing this. > > I don't agree with that conclusion. > > The only message I noticed missing was from one person. Since they are > coming from one person, that is the cause. If the messages was from > more than one person, then maybe there could be another conclusion. > Basically his emails trigger the spam alarm and it gets marked before > or upon receipt by gmail. It doesn't even make it to my in box. > > I don't know if spam is the proper term per say, but it's certainly in > the email hygiene category. > Now how a individual can find themselves in a place where their > emails are marked as spam like that, one can only guess. > > I don't need to guess. > > Any subscriber that posts to the list from an email domain that > employs contemporary security; i.e. SPF, and DKIM, and DMARC, all with > strict settings, will likely cause this to happen for subscribers that > have email with a provider that honors said strict security. > Thanks for the info. > > You're welcome. > > Note: I expect this larger problem to get considerably worse (across > mailing lists in general) before it gets better. Some governments > around the world are mandating that any business that partners with > the government in any way must implement the contemporary technologies > that I'm talking about. Germany and the U.S.A. come to mind. I don't > know of other examples off hand. > > > > > Based on posts from others, I suspect you are right. Sad to say but > mailing lists are not as popular it seems as they once was and one could > wonder if some of this is designed to make it harder for mailing lists > to stay active. While Alan's messages in the past were sort of > spam-ish, it's not really something that should be marked that way. > They shoulod get through and if the list maintainers think his messages > should be rejected for some reason, then they should be dealt with on > the Gentoo end of things. > > Either way, at least we know it isn't that some Gentoo server is having > a problem. That was my main concern. > > Dale > > :-) :-) > > signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
Spam filters are pathetic, they rarely catch spam. Mine actually marks my own post to this list as spam and puts them in the spam folder, along with other messages sporadically. If you want to stop spam use a "black list" of open relays, that works. It also helps if you aggressively report it to all admins in the mail chain and any one hosting them. I know I've been on the "don't spam this guy" list, they quickly figure out that some people will bust them hard and quick! On my other email account (different provider) I've turned the spam filter off with no problems. It also helps if you don't use antisocial media. -- “The whole world is watching! The whole world is watching!” Nov 5, 2019, 17:39 by rdalek1...@gmail.com: Grant Taylor wrote: On 11/1/19 2:00 PM, Dale wrote: I think we came to the conclusion that one person is causing this. I don't agree with that conclusion. The only message I noticed missing was from one person. Since they are coming from one person, that is the cause. If the messages was from more than one person, then maybe there could be another conclusion. Basically his emails trigger the spam alarm and it gets marked before or upon receipt by gmail. It doesn't even make it to my in box. I don't know if spam is the proper term per say, but it's certainly in the email hygiene category. Now how a individual can find themselves in a place where their emails are marked as spam like that, one can only guess. I don't need to guess. Any subscriber that posts to the list from an email domain that employs contemporary security; i.e. SPF, and DKIM, and DMARC, all with strict settings, will likely cause this to happen for subscribers that have email with a provider that honors said strict security. Thanks for the info. You're welcome. Note: I expect this larger problem to get considerably worse (across mailing lists in general) before it gets better. Some governments around the world are mandating that any business that partners with the government in any way must implement the contemporary technologies that I'm talking about. Germany and the U.S.A. come to mind. I don't know of other examples off hand. Based on posts from others, I suspect you are right. Sad to say but mailing lists are not as popular it seems as they once was and one could wonder if some of this is designed to make it harder for mailing lists to stay active. While Alan's messages in the past were sort of spam-ish, it's not really something that should be marked that way. They shoulod get through and if the list maintainers think his messages should be rejected for some reason, then they should be dealt with on the Gentoo end of things. Either way, at least we know it isn't that some Gentoo server is having a problem. That was my main concern. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
Grant Taylor wrote: > On 11/1/19 2:00 PM, Dale wrote: >> I think we came to the conclusion that one person is causing this. > > I don't agree with that conclusion. > The only message I noticed missing was from one person. Since they are coming from one person, that is the cause. If the messages was from more than one person, then maybe there could be another conclusion. >> Basically his emails trigger the spam alarm and it gets marked before >> or upon receipt by gmail. It doesn't even make it to my in box. > > I don't know if spam is the proper term per say, but it's certainly in > the email hygiene category. > >> Now how a individual can find themselves in a place where their >> emails are marked as spam like that, one can only guess. > > I don't need to guess. > > Any subscriber that posts to the list from an email domain that > employs contemporary security; i.e. SPF, and DKIM, and DMARC, all with > strict settings, will likely cause this to happen for subscribers that > have email with a provider that honors said strict security. > >> Thanks for the info. > > You're welcome. > > Note: I expect this larger problem to get considerably worse (across > mailing lists in general) before it gets better. Some governments > around the world are mandating that any business that partners with > the government in any way must implement the contemporary technologies > that I'm talking about. Germany and the U.S.A. come to mind. I don't > know of other examples off hand. > > > Based on posts from others, I suspect you are right. Sad to say but mailing lists are not as popular it seems as they once was and one could wonder if some of this is designed to make it harder for mailing lists to stay active. While Alan's messages in the past were sort of spam-ish, it's not really something that should be marked that way. They shoulod get through and if the list maintainers think his messages should be rejected for some reason, then they should be dealt with on the Gentoo end of things. Either way, at least we know it isn't that some Gentoo server is having a problem. That was my main concern. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
On 11/1/19 2:00 PM, Dale wrote: I think we came to the conclusion that one person is causing this. I don't agree with that conclusion. Basically his emails trigger the spam alarm and it gets marked before or upon receipt by gmail. It doesn't even make it to my in box. I don't know if spam is the proper term per say, but it's certainly in the email hygiene category. Now how a individual can find themselves in a place where their emails are marked as spam like that, one can only guess. I don't need to guess. Any subscriber that posts to the list from an email domain that employs contemporary security; i.e. SPF, and DKIM, and DMARC, all with strict settings, will likely cause this to happen for subscribers that have email with a provider that honors said strict security. Thanks for the info. You're welcome. Note: I expect this larger problem to get considerably worse (across mailing lists in general) before it gets better. Some governments around the world are mandating that any business that partners with the government in any way must implement the contemporary technologies that I'm talking about. Germany and the U.S.A. come to mind. I don't know of other examples off hand. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
Grant Taylor wrote: > On 10/31/19 9:52 AM, Dale wrote: >> Howdy, > > Hi, > >> I been getting quite a few of these lately. >> >>> Some messages to you could not be delivered. If you're seeing this >>> message it means things are back to normal, and it's merely for your >>> information. >>> >>> Here is the list of the bounced messages: >>> - 188380 > > I periodically get these too. > > My understanding is that my receiving server is correctly rejecting > specific messages in accordance with the purported sending domain's > wishes (which they publish in DNS). > > I believe this to be happening because the gentoo-user mailing list > (and others) are sending messages in a way that violates contemporary > spam filtering; e.g. SPF, DKIM, DMARC. > > I don't think there is anything that we subscribers can do. I think > it's up to the mailing list administrators to update / reconfigure > things to match contemporary spam filtering. > > > I think we came to the conclusion that one person is causing this. Basically his emails trigger the spam alarm and it gets marked before or upon receipt by gmail. It doesn't even make it to my in box. Now how a individual can find themselves in a place where their emails are marked as spam like that, one can only guess. Thanks for the info. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
On 10/31/19 9:52 AM, Dale wrote: Howdy, Hi, I been getting quite a few of these lately. Some messages to you could not be delivered. If you're seeing this message it means things are back to normal, and it's merely for your information. Here is the list of the bounced messages: - 188380 I periodically get these too. My understanding is that my receiving server is correctly rejecting specific messages in accordance with the purported sending domain's wishes (which they publish in DNS). I believe this to be happening because the gentoo-user mailing list (and others) are sending messages in a way that violates contemporary spam filtering; e.g. SPF, DKIM, DMARC. I don't think there is anything that we subscribers can do. I think it's up to the mailing list administrators to update / reconfigure things to match contemporary spam filtering. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
Jack wrote: > On 10/31/19 12:26 PM, Dale wrote: > [snip...] >> I disabled that on mine. I do my spam filtering locally on my machine. > > How did you disable spam filtering on gmail? I would love to do it, > but have not found a setting for such. > > Jack > > > I googled for it ages ago and someone had it figured out. So far, it works still. You set up a filter and it should look like this: Matches: from:(*) to:(*) subject:(*) * Do this: Never send it to Spam Basically, that disables the spam filter. I don't get a lot of it but I do get some. When I go to gmail it never shows anything in the spam bucket. It shows this: Hooray, no spam here! Reproduce that and cross your fingers. ;-) Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
On 31 October 2019 16:52:36 CET, Dale wrote: >Howdy, > >I been getting quite a few of these lately. > > >> Some messages to you could not be delivered. If you're seeing this >> message it means things are back to normal, and it's merely for your >> information. >> >> Here is the list of the bounced messages: >> - 188380 > > >I get these related to -user and -dev which throws threading out of >whack. I see replies to messages or the thread starter that doesn't >even exist. Is anyone else getting these or is it just me? If not >just >me, does someone need to file a bug so they can look into it? > >Thanks. > >Dale > >:-) :-) I used to get these as well because of badly configured spamfilters of ISPs. Ever since I run my own SMTP servers, I haven't encountered these anymore. -- Joost -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
On 10/31/19 12:26 PM, Dale wrote: [snip...] I disabled that on mine. I do my spam filtering locally on my machine. How did you disable spam filtering on gmail? I would love to do it, but have not found a setting for such. Jack
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
Mick wrote: > On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:26:32 GMT Dale wrote: >> Michael Orlitzky wrote: >>> On 10/31/19 12:01 PM, Mick wrote: I'm getting the same. On the same message(s). On user@ only. >>> Since you're both on gmail, those messages were probably rejected as >>> spam. It just happens sometimes. >>> >>> . >> I disabled that on mine. I do my spam filtering locally on my machine. >> It shouldn't do that but I guess it is a slight possibility. It might >> even be rejected before it gets to gmail too. It's a thought tho. >> >> Dale >> >> :-) :-) > What Michael suggests is Google Mail drops those messages altogether and we > do > not receive them at all. Not in our Inbox, not in our Spam folders. We do > however receive a message from Google's mail gateway mentioning that some > messages were bounced. That's what I was sort of referring to. It does it on gmail's receiving end not the sending end. That means it never gets to my spam filter since it is junked before it gets there. That makes sense. You know, it's bad when a individual has their email marked as spam that way. Thanks much. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
Mick wrote: > On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:06:15 GMT Dale wrote: >> Mick wrote: >>> I'm getting the same. On the same message(s). On user@ only. >> I sent for and got the help thingy and tried to get it to send me the >> missed messages. So far, I've yet to get anything including a error >> that I did it wrong. Have you tried to retrieve the missed messages and >> if so, did it work? Unless it takes a while to process, it seems it >> isn't working. >> >> Do we need to alert someone to this? I saw in the message source that >> there is a owner email addy or we could file a bug?? >> >> Dale >> >> :-) :-) > This is not a problem for me. I can read the original bounced message either > via responses provided to it, or if not (fully) quoted in the response, at > the > Mailing List archives - e.g. for message 188380: > > https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/message/ > 805899603d74dd747515c1d5e63f5ebe > > Incidentally, I think most frequently the bounced messages were sent from > Mr.Grimes. Oh, so I may be missing some messages but nothing important. lol I seem to recall him being the one using that script and then complaining because his script did things wrong and left him with a mess. It's the polar opposite of the other Alan that used to be on here who used scripts but had them doing something the right way. I wonder what happened to him. At least I know it isn't just me. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:26:32 GMT Dale wrote: > Michael Orlitzky wrote: > > On 10/31/19 12:01 PM, Mick wrote: > >> I'm getting the same. On the same message(s). On user@ only. > > > > Since you're both on gmail, those messages were probably rejected as > > spam. It just happens sometimes. > > > > . > > I disabled that on mine. I do my spam filtering locally on my machine. > It shouldn't do that but I guess it is a slight possibility. It might > even be rejected before it gets to gmail too. It's a thought tho. > > Dale > > :-) :-) What Michael suggests is Google Mail drops those messages altogether and we do not receive them at all. Not in our Inbox, not in our Spam folders. We do however receive a message from Google's mail gateway mentioning that some messages were bounced. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
Michael Orlitzky wrote: > On 10/31/19 12:01 PM, Mick wrote: >> >> I'm getting the same. On the same message(s). On user@ only. >> > > Since you're both on gmail, those messages were probably rejected as > spam. It just happens sometimes. > > . > I disabled that on mine. I do my spam filtering locally on my machine. It shouldn't do that but I guess it is a slight possibility. It might even be rejected before it gets to gmail too. It's a thought tho. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 16:06:15 GMT Dale wrote: > Mick wrote: > > I'm getting the same. On the same message(s). On user@ only. > > I sent for and got the help thingy and tried to get it to send me the > missed messages. So far, I've yet to get anything including a error > that I did it wrong. Have you tried to retrieve the missed messages and > if so, did it work? Unless it takes a while to process, it seems it > isn't working. > > Do we need to alert someone to this? I saw in the message source that > there is a owner email addy or we could file a bug?? > > Dale > > :-) :-) This is not a problem for me. I can read the original bounced message either via responses provided to it, or if not (fully) quoted in the response, at the Mailing List archives - e.g. for message 188380: https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-user/message/ 805899603d74dd747515c1d5e63f5ebe Incidentally, I think most frequently the bounced messages were sent from Mr.Grimes. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
Mick wrote: > On Thursday, 31 October 2019 15:52:36 GMT Dale wrote: >> Howdy, >> >> I been getting quite a few of these lately. >> >>> Some messages to you could not be delivered. If you're seeing this >>> message it means things are back to normal, and it's merely for your >>> information. >>> >>> Here is the list of the bounced messages: >>> - 188380 >> I get these related to -user and -dev which throws threading out of >> whack. I see replies to messages or the thread starter that doesn't >> even exist. Is anyone else getting these or is it just me? If not just >> me, does someone need to file a bug so they can look into it? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Dale >> >> :-) :-) > I'm getting the same. On the same message(s). On user@ only. I sent for and got the help thingy and tried to get it to send me the missed messages. So far, I've yet to get anything including a error that I did it wrong. Have you tried to retrieve the missed messages and if so, did it work? Unless it takes a while to process, it seems it isn't working. Do we need to alert someone to this? I saw in the message source that there is a owner email addy or we could file a bug?? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
Same. My guess is that it's Gmail filters doesn't accept some of the messages from the mailing list On Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 20:02 Mick wrote: > On Thursday, 31 October 2019 15:52:36 GMT Dale wrote: > > Howdy, > > > > I been getting quite a few of these lately. > > > > > Some messages to you could not be delivered. If you're seeing this > > > message it means things are back to normal, and it's merely for your > > > information. > > > > > > Here is the list of the bounced messages: > > > - 188380 > > > > I get these related to -user and -dev which throws threading out of > > whack. I see replies to messages or the thread starter that doesn't > > even exist. Is anyone else getting these or is it just me? If not just > > me, does someone need to file a bug so they can look into it? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Dale > > > > :-) :-) > > I'm getting the same. On the same message(s). On user@ only. > -- > Regards, > > Mick
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
On 10/31/19 12:01 PM, Mick wrote: I'm getting the same. On the same message(s). On user@ only. Since you're both on gmail, those messages were probably rejected as spam. It just happens sometimes.
Re: [gentoo-user] Bounced messages
On Thursday, 31 October 2019 15:52:36 GMT Dale wrote: > Howdy, > > I been getting quite a few of these lately. > > > Some messages to you could not be delivered. If you're seeing this > > message it means things are back to normal, and it's merely for your > > information. > > > > Here is the list of the bounced messages: > > - 188380 > > I get these related to -user and -dev which throws threading out of > whack. I see replies to messages or the thread starter that doesn't > even exist. Is anyone else getting these or is it just me? If not just > me, does someone need to file a bug so they can look into it? > > Thanks. > > Dale > > :-) :-) I'm getting the same. On the same message(s). On user@ only. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[gentoo-user] Bounced messages
Howdy, I been getting quite a few of these lately. > Some messages to you could not be delivered. If you're seeing this > message it means things are back to normal, and it's merely for your > information. > > Here is the list of the bounced messages: > - 188380 I get these related to -user and -dev which throws threading out of whack. I see replies to messages or the thread starter that doesn't even exist. Is anyone else getting these or is it just me? If not just me, does someone need to file a bug so they can look into it? Thanks. Dale :-) :-)
