Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:01:33 +, Mick wrote: Nevertheless, I support moving away from a RHL sponsored monolithic binary and hopefully if not today it will happen eventually. systemd isn't monolithic so I can only assume you are referring to the Linux kernel here :) From the discussions I had on the IRC #debianfork channel, it seems that it is structured but it forms a quasi monolitic phalanx. Jörg -- EMail:jo...@schily.net(home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin joerg.schill...@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/ URL: http://cdrecord.org/private/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/schilytools/files/'
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
Am , schrieb Bill Kenworthy: I read Veteran Unix Admins collective as a category that old style admin types fall into - the background being that systemd is essentially the old guard, do things based on experience and good practice vs the new guard whose use case is throw away vm's that are not expected to hang around, we don't care amateurs. I am a native English speaker, maybe that's why you missed it? Yes, it is a category and no, I didn't miss that point. The point though is that the way this fork was being announced is quite simple the worst way to do it. The announcement was not signed by any name and just made by someone named Majordomo Debianfork. Not that's why I do call a bad way to start such a project and building trust. Then they are already asking for donations. Yes, of course such a project has the need for donations, true. But would you spend someone money where you've got no clue whom you are giving it? I won't. So until they are going to publish a list of names about who's behind this project I for myself am just going to think about it as a more or less nice reminder to the Debian community about that a nother fork with the implicit goal to eliminate Systemd would quite quickly gain much momentum and speed. The goal of such a prank? To make the people think about it and change their opinion that this would not happen. Well, we are for sure going to see sooner or later, what's the real deal about Devuan.
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
141130 Marc Stürmer wrote: The point though is that the way this fork was being announced is quite simple the worst way to do it. The announcement was not signed by any name and just made by someone named Majordomo Debianfork. Not that's why I do call a bad way to start such a project and building trust. Then they are already asking for donations. Yes, of course such a project has the need for donations, true. But would you send someone money where you've got no clue whom you are giving it? I won't. So until they are going to publish a list of names about who's behind this project I for myself am just going to think about it as a more or less nice reminder to the Debian community about that a nother fork with the implicit goal to eliminate Systemd would quite quickly gain much momentum and speed. The goal of such a prank? To make the people think about it and change their opinion that this would not happen. A rather shrewd analysis ; the name 'Devuan' adds to my suspicions. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Cities Centre, University of Toronto TRANSIT`-O--O---' purslowatchassdotutorontodotca
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
On 30/11/14 12:35, Andrew Savchenko wrote: On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 22:32:18 -0500 Rich Freeman wrote: On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 9:01 PM, Bill Kenworthy bi...@iinet.net.au wrote: I am already really annoyed that by default systemd and apps designed to work with it leave traces on openrc based systems. You're getting worked up about text files and filenames. I suppose you'll be really upset that bash completion files are now being installed by default, and packages install logrotate configs and cron scripts even if you don't use logrotate or cron. We have INSTALL_MASK for such cases. While it should be used with care (as improper use will broke system), INSTALL_MASK=*/systemd/* keeps my systems clean from this filthy abomination. Sure, we could add a million more layers of conditionals to everything and you might save a few dozen inodes on your 10GB install, at the cost of lots of hassle/bugs/etc. In general Gentoo tends to take the pragmatic approach. If you're a purist of just about any kind you're going to have to hold your nose. However, this cuts both ways - the purists who don't want YOU to be able to make the choices YOU want to make also have to hold their noses. :) Best regards, Andrew Savchenko Yes I am using install masking ... but I believe there was a comment that this could break things as some programs expected to see the files in the systemd directories. Hence my comment. And about being a purist and holding my nose ... no I am not ... but I do not like useless cruft just because it was the easy way out which was my impression of the conversation on the email list - hence INSTASL_MASLK. BillK
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
Am 30.11.2014 um 12:44 schrieb Philip Webb: A rather shrewd analysis ; the name 'Devuan' adds to my suspicions. Well, the people behind it claim to be mostly from Italy and this should be pronounced like DevOne. People so far who have published their names do include: - Franco Lanza (who fixed a misconfiguration at the nginx setup of devuan.org he claimed) and - Teodoro Santoni, who claimed to be a junior-jack-of-all-trades in the original VUA group, going to be a maintainer of whatever is going to be needed. Source: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html#20141127.212941.f55acc3a This still leaves quite in the dark who's the initiator behind it, which kind of leadership there's at the moment - or is there none? And, of course, the possible other people being involved so far.
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
On Sunday 30 Nov 2014 12:29:07 Marc Stürmer wrote: Am 30.11.2014 um 12:44 schrieb Philip Webb: A rather shrewd analysis ; the name 'Devuan' adds to my suspicions. Well, the people behind it claim to be mostly from Italy and this should be pronounced like DevOne. People so far who have published their names do include: - Franco Lanza (who fixed a misconfiguration at the nginx setup of devuan.org he claimed) and - Teodoro Santoni, who claimed to be a junior-jack-of-all-trades in the original VUA group, going to be a maintainer of whatever is going to be needed. Source: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html#20141 127.212941.f55acc3a This still leaves quite in the dark who's the initiator behind it, which kind of leadership there's at the moment - or is there none? And, of course, the possible other people being involved so far. The request for funding when not much code has been written yet makes me suspicious. Nevertheless, I support moving away from a RHL sponsored monolithic binary and hopefully if not today it will happen eventually. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:01:33 +, Mick wrote: Nevertheless, I support moving away from a RHL sponsored monolithic binary and hopefully if not today it will happen eventually. systemd isn't monolithic so I can only assume you are referring to the Linux kernel here :) Red Hat open source everything, so while they can pay for the development of the code, they can never own it. Yes, their money gives them control of what is and is not developed by those they are paying, but it gives them neither exclusive rights to code nor the right to exclude code. -- Neil Bothwick Never sleep with anyone crazier than yourself. pgpuvBt0l5ziy.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
On Sunday 30 Nov 2014 13:13:02 Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 13:01:33 +, Mick wrote: Nevertheless, I support moving away from a RHL sponsored monolithic binary and hopefully if not today it will happen eventually. systemd isn't monolithic so I can only assume you are referring to the Linux kernel here :) I was actually referring to the systemd takeover. I know currently the incursion is in userspace, but soon enough I would expect them to try it on the kernel too. ;-) Red Hat open source everything, so while they can pay for the development of the code, they can never own it. Yes, their money gives them control of what is and is not developed by those they are paying, but it gives them neither exclusive rights to code nor the right to exclude code. Sure, but by applying Microsoft's monopolistic lessons they can have us all in a stranglehold before you know it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish :-p -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
On 11/30/2014 05:13 AM, Neil Bothwick wrote: systemd isn't monolithic so I can only assume you are referring to the Linux kernel here :) systemd most certainly is monolithic as well as modular. You can't run journald without systemd and you most certainly can't replace journald with a third party binary. Dan
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
Am 30.11.2014 um 17:39 schrieb Daniel Frey: systemd most certainly is monolithic as well as modular. You can't run journald without systemd and you most certainly can't replace journald with a third party binary. IMHO this type of discussion leads to nowhere. Of course you can view it like that or the other way around and both sides will be always right, and if saying it's monolithic, well, so is X11 which is also not quite unixy to speak of. But it is accepted. Even if you view systemd as modular as possible, it will not solve the other problems for you, if you've got them with that kind of software, and for most people that's Lennart Poettering, his track record of software, his ego and GNOME attitude (my way or the high way). YMMV.
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
On Sun, 30 Nov 2014 16:33:23 +, Mick wrote: Red Hat open source everything, so while they can pay for the development of the code, they can never own it. Yes, their money gives them control of what is and is not developed by those they are paying, but it gives them neither exclusive rights to code nor the right to exclude code. Sure, but by applying Microsoft's monopolistic lessons they can have us all in a stranglehold before you know it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish The very title of this thread shows that that need not happen... Red Hat can only control what goes in Red Hat, not Linux at large. That's why, even though they are the largest contributor to the kernel, their distro's kernel is heavily patched. -- Neil Bothwick I've got a mind like a... a... what's that thing called? pgp8fq7IoX73S.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
So, I just found out that some Debian Developers decided to fork Debian, because they can no longer stand this abomination called 'systemd': https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html What do you think, people? Shouldn't we offer them our eudev project to assist? Rgds, --
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 10:11:20 +, Pandu Poluan wrote: So, I just found out that some Debian Developers decided to fork Debian, because they can no longer stand this abomination called 'systemd': https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html What do you think, people? Shouldn't we offer them our eudev project to assist? I think it's a great example of the power of open source. At last some systemd haters are doing something more pro-active than name-calling. No one needs to offer eudev to them, the code is already out there, but openrc may be more useful. It has a few of the advantages of systemd. -- Neil Bothwick - How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb? - Two: one to hold the giraffe, the other to fill the bathtub with lots of brightly colored machine tools. pgpoMmCQG19rj.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 29/11/14 13:11, Pandu Poluan wrote: So, I just found out that some Debian Developers decided to fork Debian, because they can no longer stand this abomination called 'systemd': https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html Thanks for spreading the news. I hope this project will develop and prosper! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJUebjiAAoJEK64IL1uI2habj0H/0R2u9UImnDod/19S/+YJTul DS1pmb1MSq5Dr1uaaegxPnaEJB/o7KmkNh9U9RmyY+4H/61rosBS6Dp6H38wCZNY MrQW5XO0nnnbsQuSFoODQKISJjJ1W23zkLsK68LhZNx7LgukDuybj5Fcxd9bjvSj aOy9P1JYv8+kSIJ6qs8iLjL4q1Np8fsSTbQ6rHRn2T6zOe0uq+wNJxLRuRPL+M46 C8ToRogNOD7YDeiYMr2BX3tVUmaFUVjU+zr6S9DWO2ZtHoza/YyzoYlAiFd0KPpg NfIpGJQtnW2Q+Rx+3oTzTqRMVxcRA3q1NQI1iVI9sx243KSLQDUdt0gRvj+BNbE= =wj3z -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
Am 29.11.2014 um 11:11 schrieb Pandu Poluan: What do you think, people? Shouldn't we offer them our eudev project to assist? Since Eudev has always been opensource under the GPLv2, like udev too, there's no need to /offer/ it. If they choose to use it, they can use it, no offer/questions necessary. Simple.
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
Am 29.11.2014 um 11:11 schrieb Pandu Poluan: What do you think, people? Shouldn't we offer them our eudev project to assist? After studying their home pages so far I came to the conclusion, that I cannot take Devuan serious. It still feels more like a prank to me than a serious thing. First the name Veteran Unix Admins collective sounds strange. Nobody ever heared of them before, they don't have any kind of information on the web before that announcement of the fork showed up. Second: they are already asking for donations. Third, but most important reason: no names on their f***ing pages. Why? If I would fork a project I would mention popular names right from the beginning to gain a serious momentum! This has not happened here at all. Who are those people? Whose behind this so called fork? That's a thing that's still lurking somewhere in the shadows. Especially the fact, that they don't mention any names at all on their project pages is something that's really strange to say at last. So unless those people behind the shadows are coming out of the dark and going to solidify it's just something many people would like to happen, of course - but without any substance at all. That's why I am skeptical about all of this created buzz around it and seriously doubt if they are going to be able to deliver.
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 6:30 PM, Marc Stuermer m...@marc-stuermer.de wrote: That's why I am skeptical about all of this created buzz around it and seriously doubt if they are going to be able to deliver. Systemd = buzz these days. There was a slashdot post about some kernel bug and it seemed like 1/3rd of the posts were talking about whether systemd is to blame. You can't go three days without some kind of flamewar, and I'm sure the slashdot marketing team is milking it for every ad dollar they can get before they go bankrupt... :) -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
On 30/11/14 07:30, Marc Stuermer wrote: Am 29.11.2014 um 11:11 schrieb Pandu Poluan: What do you think, people? Shouldn't we offer them our eudev project to assist? After studying their home pages so far I came to the conclusion, that I cannot take Devuan serious. It still feels more like a prank to me than a serious thing. First the name Veteran Unix Admins collective sounds strange. Nobody ever heared of them before, they don't have any kind of information on the web before that announcement of the fork showed up. Second: they are already asking for donations. Third, but most important reason: no names on their f***ing pages. Why? If I would fork a project I would mention popular names right from the beginning to gain a serious momentum! This has not happened here at all. Who are those people? Whose behind this so called fork? That's a thing that's still lurking somewhere in the shadows. Especially the fact, that they don't mention any names at all on their project pages is something that's really strange to say at last. So unless those people behind the shadows are coming out of the dark and going to solidify it's just something many people would like to happen, of course - but without any substance at all. That's why I am skeptical about all of this created buzz around it and seriously doubt if they are going to be able to deliver. maybe, maybe not. I read Veteran Unix Admins collective as a category that old style admin types fall into - the background being that systemd is essentially the old guard, do things based on experience and good practice vs the new guard whose use case is throw away vm's that are not expected to hang around, we don't care amateurs. I am a native English speaker, maybe that's why you missed it? They do make the point that they didn't really have a long term plan to fork ... they tried to work within the system but have just now decided that its not going to work so fork. I think its a case of watch this space as they are just getting organised and have a lot to attend to at very short notice. Implications? - will gentoo fork if push comes to shove? - using this example I hope so ... I am already really annoyed that by default systemd and apps designed to work with it leave traces on openrc based systems. BillK
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 9:01 PM, Bill Kenworthy bi...@iinet.net.au wrote: I am already really annoyed that by default systemd and apps designed to work with it leave traces on openrc based systems. You're getting worked up about text files and filenames. I suppose you'll be really upset that bash completion files are now being installed by default, and packages install logrotate configs and cron scripts even if you don't use logrotate or cron. Sure, we could add a million more layers of conditionals to everything and you might save a few dozen inodes on your 10GB install, at the cost of lots of hassle/bugs/etc. In general Gentoo tends to take the pragmatic approach. If you're a purist of just about any kind you're going to have to hold your nose. However, this cuts both ways - the purists who don't want YOU to be able to make the choices YOU want to make also have to hold their noses. :) -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 22:32:18 -0500 Rich Freeman wrote: On Sat, Nov 29, 2014 at 9:01 PM, Bill Kenworthy bi...@iinet.net.au wrote: I am already really annoyed that by default systemd and apps designed to work with it leave traces on openrc based systems. You're getting worked up about text files and filenames. I suppose you'll be really upset that bash completion files are now being installed by default, and packages install logrotate configs and cron scripts even if you don't use logrotate or cron. We have INSTALL_MASK for such cases. While it should be used with care (as improper use will broke system), INSTALL_MASK=*/systemd/* keeps my systems clean from this filthy abomination. Sure, we could add a million more layers of conditionals to everything and you might save a few dozen inodes on your 10GB install, at the cost of lots of hassle/bugs/etc. In general Gentoo tends to take the pragmatic approach. If you're a purist of just about any kind you're going to have to hold your nose. However, this cuts both ways - the purists who don't want YOU to be able to make the choices YOU want to make also have to hold their noses. :) Best regards, Andrew Savchenko pgpl14gaxAGpX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Debian forked, because of systemd brouhaha
On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 17:32:08 +0100 Marc Stürmer wrote: Am 29.11.2014 um 11:11 schrieb Pandu Poluan: What do you think, people? Shouldn't we offer them our eudev project to assist? Since Eudev has always been opensource under the GPLv2, like udev too, there's no need to /offer/ it. If they choose to use it, they can use it, no offer/questions necessary. Simple. As far as I understand, Pandu meant we can recommend them to use, but not some offer in commercial or proprietary terms. Don't forget that most people on the list are not native speakers, so IMHO superfluous verbalism is inappropriate here. Best regards, Andrew Savchenko pgpEVGBDFymZu.pgp Description: PGP signature
