Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Marc Joliet]

Am Freitag, 14. Juli 2017, 00:34:33 CEST schrieb Mick:
> Interestingly, selecting Plasma to run with Wayland won't launch either.  It
> drops me back into the LoginDM screen.

I recall from the announcement of Plasma 5.10 that that is the first version 
for which 
the developers consider Wayland support good enough for *testing*.  AFAIK, it's 
not 
recommended for daily usage yet.

HTH
-- 
Marc Joliet
--
"People who think they know everything really annoy those of us who know we
don't" - Bjarne Stroustrup



signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Mick]

On Thursday 13 Jul 2017 21:58:10 Mart Raudsepp wrote:
> Ühel kenal päeval, K, 12.07.2017 kell 09:33, kirjutas Mick:
> > On Tuesday 11 Jul 2017 23:14:16 Mick wrote:
> > > On Wednesday 12 Jul 2017 01:10:00 Mart Raudsepp wrote:
> > > > > I copied /usr/share/xsessions/enlightenment.desktop to
> > > > > /usr/share/wayland-
> > > > > sessions/ and tried to select it in LightDM.  Unfortunately
> > > > > LightDM
> > > > > returns me
> > > > > back to the login page.  I don't know if this is a result of
> > > > > LightDM
> > > > > not being
> > > > > compatible with Wayland and friends, or if I need to install
> > > > > some
> > > > > other
> > > > > package in addition to what has been emerged already.
> > > > 
> > > > The desktop manager needs to be using wayland to be able to
> > > > launch
> > > > wayland desktop sessions. LightDM is not such a desktop manager
> > > > to my
> > > > knowledge and you won't be able to launch any wayland sessions
> > > > with it.
> > > > 
> > > > Mart
> > > 
> > > Thanks Mart, what other DM or means do I have to launch
> > > enlightenment with
> > > wayland?  I'm guessing the time honoured startx from a console
> > > won't cut it.
> > 
> > Oh dear!  I noticed this:
> > 
> > https://git.enlightenment.org/core/enlightenment.git/tree/README.wayl
> > and
> > 
> > which states that efl *must* be built with --enable-systemd
> > option.  I am 
> > running openrc ... so I don't know if the above just requires this as
> > a build 
> > time dependency, or is needs systemd to be running.  Anyway, from
> > that write 
> > up and the Known Issues at the bottom it seems Wayland is not ready
> > for prime 
> > time yet.
> 
> That README.wayland looks rather outdated. There are issues mentioned
> in the end that have been fixed since mid-2016 with xorg-server
> releases out since then with the fixes (Xwayland comes from xorg-
> server[wayland]).

Yes, this is encouraging and things are moving fast in e_git code.


> Regarding systemd, wayland sessions usually require logind seat
> interfaces. If you want to stick with OpenRC, you might need to look
> into elogind then, which is now in Gentoo and integrated for some
> Plasma wayland usages, but EFL stuff might need some ebuild changes too
> to use that instead of systemd provided logind.
> 
> 
> Mart

It'll take a dev interested in getting EFL to get this to run on openrc or 
with elogind.  I'll keep an eye out for developments in this area.  The 
direction of travel appears to be towards Wayland, but the ETA is of course 
unknown.

Interestingly, selecting Plasma to run with Wayland won't launch either.  It 
drops me back into the LoginDM screen.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Mart Raudsepp]

Ühel kenal päeval, K, 12.07.2017 kell 09:33, kirjutas Mick:
> On Tuesday 11 Jul 2017 23:14:16 Mick wrote:
> > On Wednesday 12 Jul 2017 01:10:00 Mart Raudsepp wrote:
> > > > I copied /usr/share/xsessions/enlightenment.desktop to
> > > > /usr/share/wayland-
> > > > sessions/ and tried to select it in LightDM.  Unfortunately
> > > > LightDM
> > > > returns me
> > > > back to the login page.  I don't know if this is a result of
> > > > LightDM
> > > > not being
> > > > compatible with Wayland and friends, or if I need to install
> > > > some
> > > > other
> > > > package in addition to what has been emerged already.
> > > 
> > > The desktop manager needs to be using wayland to be able to
> > > launch
> > > wayland desktop sessions. LightDM is not such a desktop manager
> > > to my
> > > knowledge and you won't be able to launch any wayland sessions
> > > with it.
> > > 
> > > Mart
> > 
> > Thanks Mart, what other DM or means do I have to launch
> > enlightenment with
> > wayland?  I'm guessing the time honoured startx from a console
> > won't cut it.
> 
> Oh dear!  I noticed this:
> 
> https://git.enlightenment.org/core/enlightenment.git/tree/README.wayl
> and
> 
> which states that efl *must* be built with --enable-systemd
> option.  I am 
> running openrc ... so I don't know if the above just requires this as
> a build 
> time dependency, or is needs systemd to be running.  Anyway, from
> that write 
> up and the Known Issues at the bottom it seems Wayland is not ready
> for prime 
> time yet.

That README.wayland looks rather outdated. There are issues mentioned
in the end that have been fixed since mid-2016 with xorg-server
releases out since then with the fixes (Xwayland comes from xorg-
server[wayland]).

Regarding systemd, wayland sessions usually require logind seat
interfaces. If you want to stick with OpenRC, you might need to look
into elogind then, which is now in Gentoo and integrated for some
Plasma wayland usages, but EFL stuff might need some ebuild changes too
to use that instead of systemd provided logind.


Mart

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Mart Raudsepp]

Ühel kenal päeval, T, 11.07.2017 kell 18:16, kirjutas R0b0t1:
> In any case if you are asking the question that OP did, I would
> suggest Wayland might not be for you. You may not receive any benefit
> from using it unless, for some reason, the differing underlying
> implementation fixes a bug - but I see this as being a bit of a
> stretch, because if you don't go out of your way to run Wayland only
> programs, you will still be running X11 on top of Wayland.

There are no grabs in Wayland, and thus the bug he had, related to
tooltips or context menus, might very well be related to the switch, as
tooltips and context menus are done completely differently.

> Most programs written for Wayland still seem to be at early
> experimental stages, and are things like tiling window managers.

Most programs don't need to be written for Wayland, they just use a
toolkit while avoiding to make their own libX11/XCB/etc calls.
This means most GTK3 programs and Qt programs run natively on wayland
out of the box without doing anything.
Running things needing X11, and thus going through Xwayland, can still
be smoother as well.


Mart

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Mart Raudsepp]

Ühel kenal päeval, T, 11.07.2017 kell 23:14, kirjutas Mick:
> On Wednesday 12 Jul 2017 01:10:00 Mart Raudsepp wrote:
> > > I copied /usr/share/xsessions/enlightenment.desktop to
> > > /usr/share/wayland-
> > > sessions/ and tried to select it in LightDM.  Unfortunately
> > > LightDM
> > > returns me 
> > > back to the login page.  I don't know if this is a result of
> > > LightDM
> > > not being 
> > > compatible with Wayland and friends, or if I need to install some
> > > other 
> > > package in addition to what has been emerged already.  
> > 
> > The desktop manager needs to be using wayland to be able to launch
> > wayland desktop sessions. LightDM is not such a desktop manager to
> > my
> > knowledge and you won't be able to launch any wayland sessions with
> > it.
> > 
> > Mart
> 
> Thanks Mart, what other DM or means do I have to launch enlightenment
> with 
> wayland?  I'm guessing the time honoured startx from a console won't
> cut it.

Someone else was trying Sway with LightDM and got it to work. LightDM
wiki page also says it supports Wayland. But maybe our packaging
doesn't, I need to check back with him. Did you check with LightDM as-
is? It ought to show stuff from /usr/share/wayland-sessions/ as choices
(maybe enlightenment doesn't have an entry there?).

Command line launching should be possible, but I don't know the details
to get everything going correctly.


Mart

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Mick]

On Tuesday 11 Jul 2017 23:14:16 Mick wrote:
> On Wednesday 12 Jul 2017 01:10:00 Mart Raudsepp wrote:
> > > I copied /usr/share/xsessions/enlightenment.desktop to
> > > /usr/share/wayland-
> > > sessions/ and tried to select it in LightDM.  Unfortunately LightDM
> > > returns me
> > > back to the login page.  I don't know if this is a result of LightDM
> > > not being
> > > compatible with Wayland and friends, or if I need to install some
> > > other
> > > package in addition to what has been emerged already.
> > 
> > The desktop manager needs to be using wayland to be able to launch
> > wayland desktop sessions. LightDM is not such a desktop manager to my
> > knowledge and you won't be able to launch any wayland sessions with it.
> > 
> > Mart
> 
> Thanks Mart, what other DM or means do I have to launch enlightenment with
> wayland?  I'm guessing the time honoured startx from a console won't cut it.

Oh dear!  I noticed this:

https://git.enlightenment.org/core/enlightenment.git/tree/README.wayland

which states that efl *must* be built with --enable-systemd option.  I am 
running openrc ... so I don't know if the above just requires this as a build 
time dependency, or is needs systemd to be running.  Anyway, from that write 
up and the Known Issues at the bottom it seems Wayland is not ready for prime 
time yet.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[R0b0t1]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 10:25 AM, Rich Freeman  wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Ian Zimmerman  wrote:
>> On 2017-07-11 09:02, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>
>>> > I use GNOME with Wayland for some time and I actually didn't notice
>>> > that I switched until I tried to get synergy working ( mouse sharing
>>> > software, which only works on X ), seems like GDM automatically
>>> > chose Wayland since some upgrade. XWayland works pretty seamlessly
>>> > as well, so I'll just stay with Wayland for now, but it might be
>>> > more annoying to use it with other DEs/WMs.
>>
>>> > However, I have less screen tearing with fullscreen applications
>>> > with Wayland than I had with X ( with radeon + mesa ).
>>
>>> My sense is that this is probably what people would see.  It will
>>> probably work fine for any of the major DEs, but you'll find these
>>> little cases of tools that aren't ported.  One BIG area that will be
>>> affected is X11 forwarding.  I'm not sure if that works over ssh or
>>> not with wayland, but wayland in general doesn't support network
>>> sockets.
>>
>> What about "3rd party" window managers like openbox?  From my limited
>> understanding of wayland, that functionality just goes out of the window
>> (OOPS, sorry); window management becomes a responsibility of the toolkit
>> and there is no way to plug in a different one.
>
> I'm going out on a limb a bit here, but my understanding is not so
> much that it is impossible for arbitrary applications to talk to
> wayland (that seems silly - it is just an API).  Rather, the major
> toolkits simply have already done all the hard work so that if you use
> one of those toolkits then your application will work.
>

I don't think it's been mentioned explicitly yet, but Wayland pretends
to be X11 in the same way your terminal emulator can pretend to be a
VT100.

This choice was made because otherwise applications would have to be
explicitly rewritten for Wayland before most people would switch, and
that's a barrier to entry that would be very hard to overcome.

> I'm sure there is no reason an application that doesn't use qt/gtk/etc
> couldn't just make direct calls to wayland.  However, it will require
> a lot more porting work on the part of upstream, and so it probably
> won't happen quickly.
>
> In the same way an application written to use QT probably can be made
> to work on OSX or Windows with very little additional work, because
> the toolkits provide a single API across all the platforms.  You could
> write an application that works on all these platforms without using a
> toolkit, but then the developer needs to maintain all the API
> abstraction.
>
> Getting back to openbox/etc, I suspect that you have a couple of extremes 
> here:
>
> * Full-fledged DEs like Gnome/KDE.  They have a ton of functionality
> that would be impacted by Wayland, but they also use toolkits that
> have probably already taken care of this.
> * Very minimal window managers (think fvwm/twm/etc).  They may not use
> a toolkit that was ported, but on the other hand their functionality
> is minimal and porting might not be so hard.  Also, there seems to be
> some effort to port more minimal toolkits like motif to wayland.
> * In-between environments (think xfce, openstep, etc).  They don't
> benefit from the toolkit but still have a lot of functionality to
> port.  I heard that xfce is being ported to gtk for just this reason.
>
> I suspect that Wayland is going to drive adoption of gtk/qt much more
> widely.  For the effort of directly porting to Wayland you could just
> port to gtk and then get coverage on other platforms as well.
>
>>
>> Or does xwayland help with that?  I'll be grateful for an explanation of
>> this area, as I'm worried about the future of the X server but I'm also
>> married to openbox.
>>
>
> I suspect that xwayland would cover some of this, but I haven't messed
> with either.
>

Ah, looks like someone was going to mention it then.


In any case if you are asking the question that OP did, I would
suggest Wayland might not be for you. You may not receive any benefit
from using it unless, for some reason, the differing underlying
implementation fixes a bug - but I see this as being a bit of a
stretch, because if you don't go out of your way to run Wayland only
programs, you will still be running X11 on top of Wayland.

Most programs written for Wayland still seem to be at early
experimental stages, and are things like tiling window managers.

R0b0t1.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Mick]

On Wednesday 12 Jul 2017 01:10:00 Mart Raudsepp wrote:
> > I copied /usr/share/xsessions/enlightenment.desktop to
> > /usr/share/wayland-
> > sessions/ and tried to select it in LightDM.  Unfortunately LightDM
> > returns me 
> > back to the login page.  I don't know if this is a result of LightDM
> > not being 
> > compatible with Wayland and friends, or if I need to install some
> > other 
> > package in addition to what has been emerged already.  
> 
> The desktop manager needs to be using wayland to be able to launch
> wayland desktop sessions. LightDM is not such a desktop manager to my
> knowledge and you won't be able to launch any wayland sessions with it.
> 
> Mart

Thanks Mart, what other DM or means do I have to launch enlightenment with 
wayland?  I'm guessing the time honoured startx from a console won't cut it.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Mart Raudsepp]

> I copied /usr/share/xsessions/enlightenment.desktop to
> /usr/share/wayland-
> sessions/ and tried to select it in LightDM.  Unfortunately LightDM
> returns me 
> back to the login page.  I don't know if this is a result of LightDM
> not being 
> compatible with Wayland and friends, or if I need to install some
> other 
> package in addition to what has been emerged already.  

The desktop manager needs to be using wayland to be able to launch
wayland desktop sessions. LightDM is not such a desktop manager to my
knowledge and you won't be able to launch any wayland sessions with it.

Mart

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Mick]

On Tuesday 11 Jul 2017 22:27:03 Mart Raudsepp wrote:
> Random information dump on the subject.
> 
> Wayland is no program, it is a protocol, that's it. dev-libs/wayland is
> essentially a helper library to speak that IPC protocol.
> 
> The window manager has to be the compositor and other things as well
> and do the input handling, window drawing, screenshot support, screen
> capture support, etc etc.
> Random programs can not take screenshots, listen to keys (think global
> keys, e.g outside desktop shortcuts/push2talk voip) without some
> protocol between the WM and the program. The Xorg programs for that
> essentially make use of Xorg design security issues to do stuff like
> take screenshots (random program can see your whole desktop screen with
> Xorg), listen to input (keyloggers are trivial with Xorg), etc.
> There are some standardization efforts going on between the desktop in
> various areas of this, to define wayland protocols to more securely
> support these things for applications. In some areas things are still
> lacking.
> 
> To detect native wayland vs Xwayland or Xorg I like to use xprop.
> Running that command and clicking it on a window will give information
> about that window IFF it's using Xwayland or your whole session is in
> Xorg.
> But if you are still using Xorg, then you'll have a /usr/bin/X running.
> There is no X running with a wayland WM, just Xwayland at most for
> programs that don't support wayland natively.
> Xwayland is a rootless X server to run on top of a wayland supporting
> compositor. It's conceptually the same like Xquartz or Xming to run X11
> clients in some other environment.
> 
> Wayland strives towards the "every frame is perfect" mantra. It is very
> hard for toolkits and other things to draw things halfway on monitor
> scan-out, so things like tearing are rather hard to accomplish, albeit
> possible still in certain situations.
> 
> With wayland your programs need to do all the drawing themselves, which
> actually means often pure software rendering, but thanks to the
> smoothness of "every frame is perfect", it'll feel faster on your
> common system. You don't have RENDER extension to do some acceleration
> like you do in Xorg with many toolkits knowing about X RENDER (cairo in
> the gtk+ world). To get hardware acceleration, the toolkit itself needs
> to be able to use OpenGL (full or GLES), Vulkan, or similar. GTK+ 4
> will be able to do both. Games typically already use OpenGL or Vulkan
> and if they run natively on Wayland, they are still accelerated, often
> with some things out of the way compared to Xorg. Programs that don't
> run natively and end up using Xwayland are also accelerated via RENDER,
> as Xwayland makes use of GLAMOR, which implements RENDER in the
> (Xwayland rootless) X server on top of OpenGL. But as said, in practice
> things are fast and smooth already as-is, even if software rendering.
> 
> One caveat of Wayland is that if the WM/compositor crashes, your whole
> graphical session dies, while with Xorg the WM typically just restarts
> and for the session to die, Xorg itself would have to die (and that's
> been ironed out over the decades to very rarely do).
> 
> GNOME is indeed one of the leaders in adoption and implementing various
> extra features on top of it (even middle-click PRIMARY paste,
> seriously). EFL is probably another, and I think plasma is getting
> there. And then you have the dedicated wayland compositors like Sway (a
> i3-compatible approach). I bet there are something similar openbox-like
> out there as well, but openbox itself definitely won't work, as it'd
> have to be the compositor and not talk libX11..
> 
> 
> HTH,
> but probably you should have just googled ;)
> 
> 
> Mart

Thank you very much for a comprehensive information chapter on Wayland!  :-)

Clearly I run Xorg:

 4418 ?SLsl   0:00 /usr/sbin/lightdm
 4427 tty7 Ssl+   1:00  \_ /usr/bin/X :0 -seat seat0 -auth 
/var/run/lightdm/root/:0 -nolisten tcp vt7 -novtswitch

xprop does not reveal wayland anywhere either.

I copied /usr/share/xsessions/enlightenment.desktop to /usr/share/wayland-
sessions/ and tried to select it in LightDM.  Unfortunately LightDM returns me 
back to the login page.  I don't know if this is a result of LightDM not being 
compatible with Wayland and friends, or if I need to install some other 
package in addition to what has been emerged already.  
-- 
Regards,
Mick

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Mart Raudsepp]

Random information dump on the subject.

Wayland is no program, it is a protocol, that's it. dev-libs/wayland is
essentially a helper library to speak that IPC protocol.

The window manager has to be the compositor and other things as well
and do the input handling, window drawing, screenshot support, screen
capture support, etc etc.
Random programs can not take screenshots, listen to keys (think global
keys, e.g outside desktop shortcuts/push2talk voip) without some
protocol between the WM and the program. The Xorg programs for that
essentially make use of Xorg design security issues to do stuff like
take screenshots (random program can see your whole desktop screen with
Xorg), listen to input (keyloggers are trivial with Xorg), etc.
There are some standardization efforts going on between the desktop in
various areas of this, to define wayland protocols to more securely
support these things for applications. In some areas things are still
lacking.

To detect native wayland vs Xwayland or Xorg I like to use xprop.
Running that command and clicking it on a window will give information
about that window IFF it's using Xwayland or your whole session is in
Xorg.
But if you are still using Xorg, then you'll have a /usr/bin/X running.
There is no X running with a wayland WM, just Xwayland at most for
programs that don't support wayland natively.
Xwayland is a rootless X server to run on top of a wayland supporting
compositor. It's conceptually the same like Xquartz or Xming to run X11
clients in some other environment.

Wayland strives towards the "every frame is perfect" mantra. It is very
hard for toolkits and other things to draw things halfway on monitor
scan-out, so things like tearing are rather hard to accomplish, albeit
possible still in certain situations.

With wayland your programs need to do all the drawing themselves, which
actually means often pure software rendering, but thanks to the
smoothness of "every frame is perfect", it'll feel faster on your
common system. You don't have RENDER extension to do some acceleration
like you do in Xorg with many toolkits knowing about X RENDER (cairo in
the gtk+ world). To get hardware acceleration, the toolkit itself needs
to be able to use OpenGL (full or GLES), Vulkan, or similar. GTK+ 4
will be able to do both. Games typically already use OpenGL or Vulkan
and if they run natively on Wayland, they are still accelerated, often
with some things out of the way compared to Xorg. Programs that don't
run natively and end up using Xwayland are also accelerated via RENDER,
as Xwayland makes use of GLAMOR, which implements RENDER in the
(Xwayland rootless) X server on top of OpenGL. But as said, in practice
things are fast and smooth already as-is, even if software rendering.

One caveat of Wayland is that if the WM/compositor crashes, your whole
graphical session dies, while with Xorg the WM typically just restarts
and for the session to die, Xorg itself would have to die (and that's
been ironed out over the decades to very rarely do).

GNOME is indeed one of the leaders in adoption and implementing various
extra features on top of it (even middle-click PRIMARY paste,
seriously). EFL is probably another, and I think plasma is getting
there. And then you have the dedicated wayland compositors like Sway (a
i3-compatible approach). I bet there are something similar openbox-like 
out there as well, but openbox itself definitely won't work, as it'd
have to be the compositor and not talk libX11..


HTH,
but probably you should have just googled ;)


Mart

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Rasmus Thomsen]

Hello,
> How do I know if wayland is running and if it has a hand in all this 
> goodness? I don't see any running process called wayland ...
that's because wayland is just the API, you have to look for the compositor you 
use. You can test if you run wayland via "echo $WAYLAND_DISPLAY" ( not too sure 
if all compositors export it though, but I guess they do )
Regards,
Rasmus

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Mick]

On Tuesday 11 Jul 2017 17:51:03 Franz Fellner wrote:
> > Additional question:  will keyboard selection keybindings for different
> > languages be read off /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-evdev.conf?  In particular,
> > 
> >  Option "XkbLayout"
> >  Option "XkbOptions"
> > 
> > which help me toggle the keyboard between different languages.  Or is a
> > different mechanism required for (X)Wayland?
> 
> You have to go a different route: Either it is directly configurable via WM
> (AFAIK enlightenment has a keybord module) or you have to set
> XKB_DEFAULT_LAYOUT envvar.

OKie dOKie, I set USE=wayland globally and just installed dev-libs/efl- 
and x11-wm/enlightenment- from bar overlay.  I had to disable opengl and 
sdl, enable egl gles and a number of packages were emerged/re-emerged.

I am now running the newly compiled enlightenment and it is more stable than 
before.  Nothing has crashed so far and I have not been able to reproduce the 
previous mesa/dri problems with application tooltips freezing the whole 
desktop.

Also, fonts look clearer, rendering seems faster, compositing smoother.  
Switching languages in line with my settings in 10-evdev.conf is working as it 
should.  However, perhaps it is a silly question:  

How do I know if wayland is running and if it has a hand in all this goodness?

I don't see any running process called wayland ... 

These are the two enlightenment desktop related packages emerged from overlay 
with their flags:

# emerge -1aDv @enlightenment

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild   R   *] dev-libs/efl-:0/::bar  USE="X bmp eet egl fontconfig 
fribidi gif gles ico nls pdf physics png postscript ppm psd pulseaudio sndfile 
ssl svg tga tiff v4l2 wayland webp -avahi -cxx-bindings -debug -doc -drm -
fbcon -glib -gnutls -gstreamer -harfbuzz -ibus -jpeg2k -libuv -opengl (-
pixman) -raw -scim -sdl -static-libs -system-lz4 -systemd {-test} -tslib -xim 
-xine -xpm" ABI_X86="(64) -32 (-x32)" 0 KiB
[ebuild   R   ~] x11-terms/terminology-1.0.0::gentoo  USE="nls -doc" 0 KiB
[ebuild   R   ~] x11-wm/enlightenment-:0.17/::bar  USE="eeze nls pam 
ukit wayland -doc -egl -pm-utils -static-libs -systemd" 
ENLIGHTENMENT_MODULES="appmenu backlight battery bluez4 clock conf-
applications conf-bindings conf-dialogs conf-display conf-interaction conf-
intl conf-menus conf-paths conf-performance conf-randr conf-shelves conf-theme 
conf-window-manipulation conf-window-remembers connman contact cpufreq 
everything fileman fileman-opinfo gadman ibar ibox lokker mixer msgbus music-
control notification pager pager16 quickaccess shot start syscon systray tasks 
teamwork temperature tiling winlist wizard xkbswitch -access -packagkit -wl-
desktop-shell -wl-drm -wl-fb -wl-x11" 0 KiB

Total: 3 packages (3 reinstalls), Size of downloads: 0 KiB

2nd question:

What are the following enlightenment modules for?

wl-desktop-shell
wl-drm
wl-fb
wl-x11

Do I need these to run wayland, or is the wayland USE flang alone sufficient?

-- 
Regards,
Mick

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Franz Fellner]

>
> Additional question:  will keyboard selection keybindings for different
> languages be read off /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-evdev.conf?  In particular,
>
>  Option "XkbLayout"
>  Option "XkbOptions"
>
> which help me toggle the keyboard between different languages.  Or is a
> different mechanism required for (X)Wayland?
>

You have to go a different route: Either it is directly configurable via WM
(AFAIK enlightenment has a keybord module) or you have to set
XKB_DEFAULT_LAYOUT envvar.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Franz Fellner]

Just porting to a toolkit that "supports" Wayland won't be much help to
window managers. A WM has to implement the wayland server side (compositor)
while applications are clients. The toolkits abstract away the X/wayland
client API calls (E.G. Qt platform plugins) so you simply create your
widgets, setup your (toolkit native) callbacks and are done. But as soon as
you call X-specific functions in your applications things will get harder.
Qt now also implements a wayland-compostior which HELPS creating a wayland
server. But still you need to do quite some work. Porting to gtk3 (xfce...
) will have a similar impact: It won't allow XFCE to automatically run on X
and Wayland. Probably it makes some things easier but in the end there is
not so much the toolkit can abstract away in terms of creating a
compositor/server/WM.

Personally I tried to get running Plasma on wayland several times and while
I finally got it started there were so many crashes (e.g. some applications
esp. those having to run on XWayland, but also systemsettings) and issues
with managing windows that I gave up on it for the moment. Gnome might be a
different thing as they go wayland exclusively and have a working
implementation for a longer time than kde. I also tried enlightenment with
wayland which didn't run more stable than with X :(

2017-07-11 17:25 GMT+02:00 Rich Freeman :

> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Ian Zimmerman 
> wrote:
> > On 2017-07-11 09:02, Rich Freeman wrote:
> >
> >> > I use GNOME with Wayland for some time and I actually didn't notice
> >> > that I switched until I tried to get synergy working ( mouse sharing
> >> > software, which only works on X ), seems like GDM automatically
> >> > chose Wayland since some upgrade. XWayland works pretty seamlessly
> >> > as well, so I'll just stay with Wayland for now, but it might be
> >> > more annoying to use it with other DEs/WMs.
> >
> >> > However, I have less screen tearing with fullscreen applications
> >> > with Wayland than I had with X ( with radeon + mesa ).
> >
> >> My sense is that this is probably what people would see.  It will
> >> probably work fine for any of the major DEs, but you'll find these
> >> little cases of tools that aren't ported.  One BIG area that will be
> >> affected is X11 forwarding.  I'm not sure if that works over ssh or
> >> not with wayland, but wayland in general doesn't support network
> >> sockets.
> >
> > What about "3rd party" window managers like openbox?  From my limited
> > understanding of wayland, that functionality just goes out of the window
> > (OOPS, sorry); window management becomes a responsibility of the toolkit
> > and there is no way to plug in a different one.
>
> I'm going out on a limb a bit here, but my understanding is not so
> much that it is impossible for arbitrary applications to talk to
> wayland (that seems silly - it is just an API).  Rather, the major
> toolkits simply have already done all the hard work so that if you use
> one of those toolkits then your application will work.
>
> I'm sure there is no reason an application that doesn't use qt/gtk/etc
> couldn't just make direct calls to wayland.  However, it will require
> a lot more porting work on the part of upstream, and so it probably
> won't happen quickly.
>
> In the same way an application written to use QT probably can be made
> to work on OSX or Windows with very little additional work, because
> the toolkits provide a single API across all the platforms.  You could
> write an application that works on all these platforms without using a
> toolkit, but then the developer needs to maintain all the API
> abstraction.
>
> Getting back to openbox/etc, I suspect that you have a couple of extremes
> here:
>
> * Full-fledged DEs like Gnome/KDE.  They have a ton of functionality
> that would be impacted by Wayland, but they also use toolkits that
> have probably already taken care of this.
> * Very minimal window managers (think fvwm/twm/etc).  They may not use
> a toolkit that was ported, but on the other hand their functionality
> is minimal and porting might not be so hard.  Also, there seems to be
> some effort to port more minimal toolkits like motif to wayland.
> * In-between environments (think xfce, openstep, etc).  They don't
> benefit from the toolkit but still have a lot of functionality to
> port.  I heard that xfce is being ported to gtk for just this reason.
>
> I suspect that Wayland is going to drive adoption of gtk/qt much more
> widely.  For the effort of directly porting to Wayland you could just
> port to gtk and then get coverage on other platforms as well.
>
> >
> > Or does xwayland help with that?  I'll be grateful for an explanation of
> > this area, as I'm worried about the future of the X server but I'm also
> > married to openbox.
> >
>
> I suspect that xwayland would cover some of this, but I haven't messed
> with either.
>
> --
> Rich
>
>

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Mick]

On Tuesday 11 Jul 2017 07:51:19 Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> On 2017-07-11 09:02, Rich Freeman wrote:
> > > I use GNOME with Wayland for some time and I actually didn't notice
> > > that I switched until I tried to get synergy working ( mouse sharing
> > > software, which only works on X ), seems like GDM automatically
> > > chose Wayland since some upgrade. XWayland works pretty seamlessly
> > > as well, so I'll just stay with Wayland for now, but it might be
> > > more annoying to use it with other DEs/WMs.
> > > 
> > > However, I have less screen tearing with fullscreen applications
> > > with Wayland than I had with X ( with radeon + mesa ).
> > 
> > My sense is that this is probably what people would see.  It will
> > probably work fine for any of the major DEs, but you'll find these
> > little cases of tools that aren't ported.  One BIG area that will be
> > affected is X11 forwarding.  I'm not sure if that works over ssh or
> > not with wayland, but wayland in general doesn't support network
> > sockets.
> 
> What about "3rd party" window managers like openbox?  From my limited
> understanding of wayland, that functionality just goes out of the window
> (OOPS, sorry); window management becomes a responsibility of the toolkit
> and there is no way to plug in a different one.
> 
> Or does xwayland help with that?  I'll be grateful for an explanation of
> this area, as I'm worried about the future of the X server but I'm also
> married to openbox.

Additional question:  will keyboard selection keybindings for different 
languages be read off /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-evdev.conf?  In particular,

 Option "XkbLayout" 
 Option "XkbOptions"

which help me toggle the keyboard between different languages.  Or is a 
different mechanism required for (X)Wayland?

-- 
Regards,
Mick

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Ian Zimmerman  wrote:
> On 2017-07-11 09:02, Rich Freeman wrote:
>
>> > I use GNOME with Wayland for some time and I actually didn't notice
>> > that I switched until I tried to get synergy working ( mouse sharing
>> > software, which only works on X ), seems like GDM automatically
>> > chose Wayland since some upgrade. XWayland works pretty seamlessly
>> > as well, so I'll just stay with Wayland for now, but it might be
>> > more annoying to use it with other DEs/WMs.
>
>> > However, I have less screen tearing with fullscreen applications
>> > with Wayland than I had with X ( with radeon + mesa ).
>
>> My sense is that this is probably what people would see.  It will
>> probably work fine for any of the major DEs, but you'll find these
>> little cases of tools that aren't ported.  One BIG area that will be
>> affected is X11 forwarding.  I'm not sure if that works over ssh or
>> not with wayland, but wayland in general doesn't support network
>> sockets.
>
> What about "3rd party" window managers like openbox?  From my limited
> understanding of wayland, that functionality just goes out of the window
> (OOPS, sorry); window management becomes a responsibility of the toolkit
> and there is no way to plug in a different one.

I'm going out on a limb a bit here, but my understanding is not so
much that it is impossible for arbitrary applications to talk to
wayland (that seems silly - it is just an API).  Rather, the major
toolkits simply have already done all the hard work so that if you use
one of those toolkits then your application will work.

I'm sure there is no reason an application that doesn't use qt/gtk/etc
couldn't just make direct calls to wayland.  However, it will require
a lot more porting work on the part of upstream, and so it probably
won't happen quickly.

In the same way an application written to use QT probably can be made
to work on OSX or Windows with very little additional work, because
the toolkits provide a single API across all the platforms.  You could
write an application that works on all these platforms without using a
toolkit, but then the developer needs to maintain all the API
abstraction.

Getting back to openbox/etc, I suspect that you have a couple of extremes here:

* Full-fledged DEs like Gnome/KDE.  They have a ton of functionality
that would be impacted by Wayland, but they also use toolkits that
have probably already taken care of this.
* Very minimal window managers (think fvwm/twm/etc).  They may not use
a toolkit that was ported, but on the other hand their functionality
is minimal and porting might not be so hard.  Also, there seems to be
some effort to port more minimal toolkits like motif to wayland.
* In-between environments (think xfce, openstep, etc).  They don't
benefit from the toolkit but still have a lot of functionality to
port.  I heard that xfce is being ported to gtk for just this reason.

I suspect that Wayland is going to drive adoption of gtk/qt much more
widely.  For the effort of directly porting to Wayland you could just
port to gtk and then get coverage on other platforms as well.

>
> Or does xwayland help with that?  I'll be grateful for an explanation of
> this area, as I'm worried about the future of the X server but I'm also
> married to openbox.
>

I suspect that xwayland would cover some of this, but I haven't messed
with either.

-- 
Rich

[gentoo-user] Re: Wayland - too early to try?

[Ian Zimmerman]

On 2017-07-11 09:02, Rich Freeman wrote:

> > I use GNOME with Wayland for some time and I actually didn't notice
> > that I switched until I tried to get synergy working ( mouse sharing
> > software, which only works on X ), seems like GDM automatically
> > chose Wayland since some upgrade. XWayland works pretty seamlessly
> > as well, so I'll just stay with Wayland for now, but it might be
> > more annoying to use it with other DEs/WMs.

> > However, I have less screen tearing with fullscreen applications
> > with Wayland than I had with X ( with radeon + mesa ).

> My sense is that this is probably what people would see.  It will
> probably work fine for any of the major DEs, but you'll find these
> little cases of tools that aren't ported.  One BIG area that will be
> affected is X11 forwarding.  I'm not sure if that works over ssh or
> not with wayland, but wayland in general doesn't support network
> sockets.

What about "3rd party" window managers like openbox?  From my limited
understanding of wayland, that functionality just goes out of the window
(OOPS, sorry); window management becomes a responsibility of the toolkit
and there is no way to plug in a different one.

Or does xwayland help with that?  I'll be grateful for an explanation of
this area, as I'm worried about the future of the X server but I'm also
married to openbox.

-- 
Please don't Cc: me privately on mailing lists and Usenet,
if you also post the followup to the list or newsgroup.
Do obvious transformation on domain to reply privately _only_ on Usenet.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: wayland

[Jens Reinemuth]

On Tuesday 22 July 2014 00:32:59 Volker Armin Hemmann wrote:
  Most Desktops will be a while before interacting with Wayland,
  let alone supporting it natively, imho. Bloatware like gnome
  and KDE will be the last to get QT5, Wayland and a myriad
  of new, super_fast, secure desktop toys, imho.
 
 who told you that 'bloated' buzz word? The same people who told you
 about 'the cloud' or 'web 2.0'?

i think the same people that told him, that desktop environments are security 
risks...

-- 
jens reinemuth 
leonhard-eckel-siedlung 4a
d-67483 edesheim
mobil:  +49.176.63613420
mail:   j...@reinemuth.info
jabber: j...@jabber.reinemuth.info
--

Recursion is the root of computation since it trades description for time.

[gentoo-user] Re: wayland

[James]

Stefan G. Weichinger lists at xunil.at writes:


 Anyone playing with wayland already?

Not yet.
Closely related, is the QT5 approach to start experimenting.

 Maybe even using it as daily driver ?
 I did some steps to compile and use it on my systems ... so far I wasn't
 able to start up gnome 3.12 (~ gnome-shell) with gdm here.
 Is it possible already?

This might help [1] 

 Stefan


[1] http://qt-project.org/wiki/QtWayland

hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: wayland

[Stefan G. Weichinger]

Am 21.07.2014 15:54, schrieb James:
 Stefan G. Weichinger lists at xunil.at writes:
 
 
 Anyone playing with wayland already?
 
 Not yet.
 Closely related, is the QT5 approach to start experimenting.
 
 Maybe even using it as daily driver ?
 I did some steps to compile and use it on my systems ... so far I wasn't
 able to start up gnome 3.12 (~ gnome-shell) with gdm here.
 Is it possible already?
 
 This might help [1] 
 
 Stefan
 
 
 [1] http://qt-project.org/wiki/QtWayland

hmm, thanks ... I am not sure how to apply this ;-)

You suggest that by running QtWayland I might be able to run gnome with
wayland?

S

[gentoo-user] Re: wayland

[James]

Stefan G. Weichinger lists at xunil.at writes:


  Anyone playing with wayland already?

  Not yet.
  Closely related, is the QT5 approach to start experimenting.

  This might help [1] 

  [1] http://qt-project.org/wiki/QtWayland

 hmm, thanks ... I am not sure how to apply this 

Most Desktops will be a while before interacting with Wayland,
let alone supporting it natively, imho. Bloatware like gnome
and KDE will be the last to get QT5, Wayland and a myriad
of new, super_fast, secure desktop toys, imho.

 You suggest that by running QtWayland I might be able to run gnome with
 wayland?

I don't 'gnome' or 'kde' anything anymore. Those bloated, security risks
will be the last ones to support Wayland, imho.

LXQT(5) is way ahead on Wayland, as they already have testing version
of lxqt running on qt5 (grep this list archives for discussions).

LXQt Got Full Support For Qt5. Wayland Support Will Be Soon Added


http://linuxg.net/lxqt-got-full-support-for-qt5-wayland-support-will-be-soon-added/


Best to the site for help, as I'm not on the razor's edge
with LXQT. I'm working on other stuff for a few more weeks..
Skinny (LXQT5) is the new PHAT. Join the revolution. LXQT is up to
13 devs now. Project is 'on fire', so pull up a seat, and get
roasted! 

hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: wayland

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 21.07.2014 23:40, schrieb James:
 Stefan G. Weichinger lists at xunil.at writes:


 Anyone playing with wayland already?
 Not yet.
 Closely related, is the QT5 approach to start experimenting.
 This might help [1] 
 [1] http://qt-project.org/wiki/QtWayland
 hmm, thanks ... I am not sure how to apply this 
 Most Desktops will be a while before interacting with Wayland,
 let alone supporting it natively, imho. Bloatware like gnome
 and KDE will be the last to get QT5, Wayland and a myriad
 of new, super_fast, secure desktop toys, imho.

 You suggest that by running QtWayland I might be able to run gnome with
 wayland?
 I don't 'gnome' or 'kde' anything anymore. Those bloated, security risks
 will be the last ones to support Wayland, imho.

 LXQT(5) is way ahead on Wayland, as they already have testing version
 of lxqt running on qt5 (grep this list archives for discussions).

 LXQt Got Full Support For Qt5. Wayland Support Will Be Soon Added


 http://linuxg.net/lxqt-got-full-support-for-qt5-wayland-support-will-be-soon-added/


 Best to the site for help, as I'm not on the razor's edge
 with LXQT. I'm working on other stuff for a few more weeks..
 Skinny (LXQT5) is the new PHAT. Join the revolution. LXQT is up to
 13 devs now. Project is 'on fire', so pull up a seat, and get
 roasted! 

 hth,
 James



who told you that 'bloated' buzz word? The same people who told you
about 'the cloud' or 'web 2.0'?

[gentoo-user] Re: wayland

[James]

Volker Armin Hemmann volkerarmin at googlemail.com writes:


 who told you that 'bloated' buzz word? The same people who told you
 about 'the cloud' or 'web 2.0'?


Nobody, common sense from practicle experience. Here's what you
*should* do to experince just how bloated  most desktops have become.

Build up a minimize workstation and compile some big codes under
gnome_bloat or KDE_lead_sinker and then compile the same code
on a light weight workstation of equal resources.  BLOAT is
ok if you got all day. Becoming aquaited with tons of ram
that is not being suck_dry by the desktop, is a mind altering
experince..  try it, you might like it...

Anyway, I'm moving to a 3 monitor setup (3 27 samsungs) as soon
as I fine a triple monitor mount for 27. Then I'll have 2
worksations under them, so I might put up a bloatware desktop,
just to remind me how sluggish they are
hahahahahahaha...


peace,
James