Re: [gentoo-user] Recommend a good replacement for XFCE?

[Carlos Hendson]

On Sat, 2016-09-24 at 01:52 -0400, waltd...@waltdnes.org wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 11:45:26PM +, Grant Edwards wrote
> 
> > Would anybody care to make a recommendation?
> 
>   How about ditching "Desktop Environment" altogether and using a
> "Window Manager" instead?  I use ICEWM.  It has to be configured with
> a
> text editor, but you can then set it and forget it.

If using a Window Manager fits, awesome is worth a mention.

https://awesomewm.org/

* Very stable, fast and small codebase and footprint;
* First window manager using asynchronous XCB library instead of the
old synchronous Xlib: make awesome less subject to latency than many
window managers;
* Very well documented source code and API;
* No mouse needed: everything can be performed with keyboard;
* Real multihead support (XRandR, Xinerama or Zaphod mode) with per
screen desktops (tags);
* Implement many Freedesktop standards: EWMH, XDG Base Directory,
XEmbed, Desktop Notification, System Tray;
* Doesn't distinguish between layers: there is no floating or tiled
layer;
* Use tags instead of workspaces: allow to place clients on several
tags, and display several tags at the same time;
* A lot of Lua extensions to add features: dynamic tagging, widget
feeding, tabs, layouts;
* D-Bus support;
And more.

Regards,
Carlos

Re: [gentoo-user] Recommend a good replacement for XFCE?

[waltdnes]

On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 11:45:26PM +, Grant Edwards wrote

> Would anybody care to make a recommendation?

  How about ditching "Desktop Environment" altogether and using a
"Window Manager" instead?  I use ICEWM.  It has to be configured with a
text editor, but you can then set it and forget it.

> The requirements are:
> 
>   * simple and lightweight

  Yup.


>   * support for multiple displays[1]

  Can be done by xrandr / xorg.conf See...
  https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/multihead


>   * support for multiple virtual desktops on each display (I
> currently run 4 virtual desktops on each of 3 displays)

  I run 11 virtual desktops on one screen.

>   * must have focus-follows mouse and must be able disable
> "raise-on-click"

  You probably want to select the "PointerFocus" option listed at
  http://www.icewm.org/FAQ/IceWM-FAQ-5.html

>   * some sort of easily modifiable root-window menu that I can use to
> start apps
> 
>   * some sort of task-bar (auto-hide required)
> 
>   * some sort toolbar OK (as long as it's auto-hide)

  Got it all.  But you have to edit the config file with a text
  editor.  ICEWM allows you to make ~/.icewm/menu (the root menu) a
  symlink to ~/.icewm/toolbar if you wish.  Their content will then
  be identical.


>   * GTK-based strongly preferred -- I typically don't have Qt or any
> KDE stuff installed, and have some custom-written GTK apps on
> which I'm rather dependent.

  Does not pull in either GTK or QT.  It's a WM (Window Manager) not
  a DE (Desktop Environment).

>   * I don't want a file manager, terminal emulator, or any other
> bundled apps, so it would be nice if they were all optional,
> separate ebuilds

  An advantage of a WM

> I don't want any storage auto-mounter, network manager, modem manager,
> or any of that sort of thing.  Anything with "manager" in the name is
> probably right out.

  An advantage of a WM

> All I want is something to run urxvt terminals and xemacs windows --
> with maybe an instance of firefox, chrome, or wireshark.  I also
> occasionally run libreoffice or xfreerdp, but only under duress.

  I run mostly web browsers, gnumeric, and some xterms

> I don't want any icons or folders or shortcuts or whatnot on the
> desktop.

  An advantage of a WM

> I don't even need the ability to use an image as my desktop
> "wallpaper": all I want is a user-configurable sold color.

  Available, but not mandatory.

> No fancy animation or translucency silliness.

  Available, but not mandatory.

-- 
Walter Dnes 
I don't run "desktop environments"; I run useful applications

Re: [gentoo-user] Recommend a good replacement for XFCE?

[David Haller]

Hello,

On Fri, 23 Sep 2016, Grant Edwards wrote:
>Would anybody care to make a recommendation?

Ever checked out WindowMaker (x11-wm/windowmaker)? The default config
is quite clunky though, but there's many themes and stuff.

>The requirements are:
>
>  * simple and lightweight

Check. Without big bg-images probably < 5MB even on 64bit including
libs.

>  * support for multiple displays[1]

No idea about that. But, from 'man wmaker':

OPTIONS
   -display host:display.screen
  specify display to use. On multiheaded machines, Window
  Maker will automatically manage all screens. If you want
  Window Maker to manage only a specific screen, you must
  supply the screen number you want to have managed with
  the -display command line argument. For example, if you
  want Window Maker to manage only screen 1, start it as:
  wmaker -display :0.1

Never tried that though.

>  * support for multiple virtual desktops on each display (I
>currently run 4 virtual desktops on each of 3 displays)
>  * must have focus-follows mouse and must be able disable
>"raise-on-click"

Check, check.

>  * some sort of easily modifiable root-window menu that I can use to
>start apps

Check. If I understand right, it's the right-click (configurable) menu
anywhere on the desktop itself. Or use a keyboard combo (easily
configurable), as you use xemacs, that should be no problem. If you
move the menu (or any sub-menu), you can "pull the (sub-)menu off" so
it becomes a window in its own right which stays open until you close
it (while you can open other (sub-)menus or whatnot).

>  * some sort of task-bar (auto-hide required)

Just middle-click (configurable) menu anywhere (or use a key-combo)
shows open windows. Autohide is implicit as it's a menu, but again,
it can be pulled off so it'll stay open if you want.

There's also the "App icons" (somewhat like a minified taskbar), I
think they can be disabled in the "Expert User Preferences" of the
config-tool.

>  * some sort toolbar OK (as long as it's auto-hide)

I guess that'd be the "Dock"...

The Dock has a "check" for "start when Window Maker is started", so I
guess ... I guess the Icons can be switched off too if you prefer a
panel/toolbar. But no auto-hide.

wmaker has '--no-clip' and '--no-dock' options, so you'd just get the
root-window plus the menus. Adding (auto-hiding) panel-apps / taskbars
should then be no problem.

But I'm not sure what you mean by root-window menu / task-bar /
toolbar.

>  * GTK-based strongly preferred -- I typically don't have Qt or any
>KDE stuff installed, and have some custom-written GTK apps on
>which I'm rather dependent.

Just plain X plus a couple smallish own libs:

$ ls -lh /usr/lib64/{libWINGs,libWUtil,libwraster}.so.?.?.? 
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 495K Jul  6 04:27 /usr/lib64/libWINGs.so.3.1.0
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 144K Jul  6 04:27 /usr/lib64/libWUtil.so.5.0.0
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 143K Jul  6 04:27 /usr/lib64/libwraster.so.5.0.0

And those libs are unstripped, though that isn't much (439, 124, and
132kB, I just stripped copies in /tmp ;)

>  * I don't want a file manager, terminal emulator, or any other
>bundled apps, so it would be nice if they were all optional,
>separate ebuilds

Just the actual window manager, a config-tool and some small helpers
(e.g. wmclip, wmdock, wmsetbg).

>I don't want any storage auto-mounter, network manager, modem manager,
>or any of that sort of thing.  Anything with "manager" in the name is
>probably right out.

Neither do I :) As well as most anything with "Kit".

>All I want is something to run urxvt terminals and xemacs windows --

Same here (with (u)xterms ;).

>with maybe an instance of firefox, chrome, or wireshark.  I also
>occasionally run libreoffice or xfreerdp, but only under duress.
>
>I don't want any icons or folders or shortcuts or whatnot on the
>desktop.

Then WMaker seems fitting ;)

>I don't even need the ability to use an image as my desktop
>"wallpaper": all I want is a user-configurable sold color.

Easy to configure via the config tool.

>When I'm moving/resizing a window, all I want to see is a wireframe --
>I don't need a window's contents being re-rendered constantly as I
>move or resize it.

Got that. "Window Handling Preferences" -> "Opaque Move" (on/off)
plus "Miscellaneous Ergonomic Preferences" -> "Size
Display"/"Position Display" ...

>No fancy animation or translucency silliness.

You got that. IIRC the default has some frills you'd need to turn off.

But no fear, you need to do that only once, I did that in IIRC 2002 or
so with WMaker 0.65 and never touched that config ever again. I think
there was once some feature renamed or so, but you get that with
xemacs/mutt/tin as well.

So, IMO it's should be worth a look. But _do_ have a look through the
config-tool at the options (like the focus and moving stuff) and
ignore the UI-look, that can be tuned a lot, the 

Re: [gentoo-user] Recommend a good replacement for XFCE?

[Alecks Gates]

On 09/23/2016 06:45 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> I've been running XFCE for many, many years, and I was perfectly happy
> with it until 4.11 came out.  Support for multiple displays[1] was
> broken in xfdesktop by a commit made in 2013. It's been broken ever
> since, and there doesn't appear to be any intention of fixing it.
> 
> About a year ago, when 4.12 went stable, I had to block it to avoid
> this bug.  I've been running 4.10 ever since, but the ebuild for 4.10
> just got pruned, so it's probably time to start thinking about
> switching to a different desktop.
> 
> Would anybody care to make a recommendation?
> 
> The requirements are:
> 
>   * simple and lightweight
> 
>   * support for multiple displays[1]
> 
>   * support for multiple virtual desktops on each display (I
> currently run 4 virtual desktops on each of 3 displays)
> 
>   * must have focus-follows mouse and must be able disable
> "raise-on-click"
> 
>   * some sort of easily modifiable root-window menu that I can use to
> start apps
> 
>   * some sort of task-bar (auto-hide required)
> 
>   * some sort toolbar OK (as long as it's auto-hide)
> 
>   * GTK-based strongly preferred -- I typically don't have Qt or any
> KDE stuff installed, and have some custom-written GTK apps on
> which I'm rather dependent.
> 
>   * I don't want a file manager, terminal emulator, or any other
> bundled apps, so it would be nice if they were all optional,
> separate ebuilds
> 
> I don't want any storage auto-mounter, network manager, modem manager,
> or any of that sort of thing.  Anything with "manager" in the name is
> probably right out.
> 
> All I want is something to run urxvt terminals and xemacs windows --
> with maybe an instance of firefox, chrome, or wireshark.  I also
> occasionally run libreoffice or xfreerdp, but only under duress.
> 
> I don't want any icons or folders or shortcuts or whatnot on the
> desktop.
> 
> I don't even need the ability to use an image as my desktop
> "wallpaper": all I want is a user-configurable sold color.
> 
> When I'm moving/resizing a window, all I want to see is a wireframe --
> I don't need a window's contents being re-rendered constantly as I
> move or resize it.
> 
> No fancy animation or translucency silliness.
> 
> [1] I'm referring to separate X11 displays/desktops, not a single
> logical display spread across multiple physical monitors.
> 

Have you considered MATE?  It's a pretty darn good replacement for XFCE;
very 'minimal' -- though not quite as minimal as what you suggest -- and
GTK+ based.  I'm not extremely familiar with all of its features or lack
thereof, but I was pleasantly surprised by it.

-- 
Alecks Gates


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[gentoo-user] Recommend a good replacement for XFCE?

[Grant Edwards]

I've been running XFCE for many, many years, and I was perfectly happy
with it until 4.11 came out.  Support for multiple displays[1] was
broken in xfdesktop by a commit made in 2013. It's been broken ever
since, and there doesn't appear to be any intention of fixing it.

About a year ago, when 4.12 went stable, I had to block it to avoid
this bug.  I've been running 4.10 ever since, but the ebuild for 4.10
just got pruned, so it's probably time to start thinking about
switching to a different desktop.

Would anybody care to make a recommendation?

The requirements are:

  * simple and lightweight

  * support for multiple displays[1]

  * support for multiple virtual desktops on each display (I
currently run 4 virtual desktops on each of 3 displays)

  * must have focus-follows mouse and must be able disable
"raise-on-click"

  * some sort of easily modifiable root-window menu that I can use to
start apps

  * some sort of task-bar (auto-hide required)

  * some sort toolbar OK (as long as it's auto-hide)

  * GTK-based strongly preferred -- I typically don't have Qt or any
KDE stuff installed, and have some custom-written GTK apps on
which I'm rather dependent.

  * I don't want a file manager, terminal emulator, or any other
bundled apps, so it would be nice if they were all optional,
separate ebuilds

I don't want any storage auto-mounter, network manager, modem manager,
or any of that sort of thing.  Anything with "manager" in the name is
probably right out.

All I want is something to run urxvt terminals and xemacs windows --
with maybe an instance of firefox, chrome, or wireshark.  I also
occasionally run libreoffice or xfreerdp, but only under duress.

I don't want any icons or folders or shortcuts or whatnot on the
desktop.

I don't even need the ability to use an image as my desktop
"wallpaper": all I want is a user-configurable sold color.

When I'm moving/resizing a window, all I want to see is a wireframe --
I don't need a window's contents being re-rendered constantly as I
move or resize it.

No fancy animation or translucency silliness.

[1] I'm referring to separate X11 displays/desktops, not a single
logical display spread across multiple physical monitors.

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! FROZEN ENTREES may
  at   be flung by members of
  gmail.comopposing SWANSON SECTS ...