Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 10:18:13 -0500, Dale wrote: > >> When I say deeper, I mean it will find more packages that may not be > >> found otherwise. > > And -e finds even more - but more is not always better. -U was > > introduced because -N was causing too many packages to be rebuilt > > unnecessarily. > Before those options came along, I would run emerge -e world to fix > problems. Sometimes revdep-rebuild would catch things but sometimes it > wouldn't. Thing is, since I started using the current options, I have > few problems with package upgrades. Sure, they have a known bug on > occasion but recompiling won't help that. I'm just talking about > problems with one package not matching up with some other package and > recompile fixes it. > > To me, the fact it works so much better tells me I'm doing something > right. Other people may get different results but as long as what I'm > doing works, I don't plan to change anything. -N works, it just creates extra work. If you are happy with that, there's no need to change. -- Neil Bothwick There are two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things and off-by-one errors. pgp3tqCYjPe6V.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
Neil Bothwick wrote: > On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 06:30:47 -0500, Dale wrote: > >>> -U: if a package doesn't need to be updated on your system today, >>> it'll be left until it does. >>> >>> -N: if any USE flag at all has changed in a package, it'll be >>> recompiled, whether it needs to be on your system or not. >>> >> >> When I say deeper, I mean it will find more packages that may not be >> found otherwise. > And -e finds even more - but more is not always better. -U was introduced > because -N was causing too many packages to be rebuilt unnecessarily. > > Before those options came along, I would run emerge -e world to fix problems. Sometimes revdep-rebuild would catch things but sometimes it wouldn't. Thing is, since I started using the current options, I have few problems with package upgrades. Sure, they have a known bug on occasion but recompiling won't help that. I'm just talking about problems with one package not matching up with some other package and recompile fixes it. To me, the fact it works so much better tells me I'm doing something right. Other people may get different results but as long as what I'm doing works, I don't plan to change anything. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
On Tue, 11 Apr 2023 06:30:47 -0500, Dale wrote: > > -U: if a package doesn't need to be updated on your system today, > > it'll be left until it does. > > > > -N: if any USE flag at all has changed in a package, it'll be > > recompiled, whether it needs to be on your system or not. > > > > > When I say deeper, I mean it will find more packages that may not be > found otherwise. And -e finds even more - but more is not always better. -U was introduced because -N was causing too many packages to be rebuilt unnecessarily. -- Neil Bothwick "Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere." (Albert Einstein) pgpqMA91uTQ4P.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
Neil, On Tuesday, 2023-04-11 08:19:10 +0100, you wrote: > ... > So now we kn ow, ChatGPT is case-insensitive, it gave you answers for -u > and -n. You aren't really flabbergasted, are you? After all Microsoft is known for having a particularly soft spot for case-insensitiveness :-) Sincerely, Rainer
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
Peter Humphrey wrote: > On Tuesday, 11 April 2023 11:33:38 BST Dale wrote: > >> The info from the man page is correct. > Of course it is. There'd be uproar if it weren't. > >> They do two different things. The -N will mean more recompiles of packages >> but it also means that when a USE flag change is made, it also changes any >> packages that relates to that. In other words, it goes deeper. > I don't know why you think it goes deeper, Dale. It's a question of candidate > selection, not depth of analysis. > > -U: if a package doesn't need to be updated on your system today, it'll be > left until it does. > > -N: if any USE flag at all has changed in a package, it'll be recompiled, > whether it needs to be on your system or not. > When I say deeper, I mean it will find more packages that may not be found otherwise. The deeper the hole I dig, the more dirt I have. That sort of thing. Maybe it should be phrased another way??? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
On Tuesday, 11 April 2023 11:33:38 BST Dale wrote: > The info from the man page is correct. Of course it is. There'd be uproar if it weren't. > They do two different things. The -N will mean more recompiles of packages > but it also means that when a USE flag change is made, it also changes any > packages that relates to that. In other words, it goes deeper. I don't know why you think it goes deeper, Dale. It's a question of candidate selection, not depth of analysis. -U: if a package doesn't need to be updated on your system today, it'll be left until it does. -N: if any USE flag at all has changed in a package, it'll be recompiled, whether it needs to be on your system or not. -- Regards, Peter.
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
jul...@jroy.ca wrote: > On Mon, 2023-04-10 at 22:10 -0600, the...@sys-concept.com wrote: >> On 4/10/23 18:53, Dale wrote: >> >> >> I've asked ChatGPT for explanation and here is what I got: >> >> Here are the differences between emerge -U and emerge -N: >> >> emerge -U: This option upgrades the specified package(s) to the >> latest available version. It will first download the new version, >> then build and install it. If a dependency of the package being >> upgraded also needs to be upgraded, it will also be upgraded. >> >> emerge -N: This option installs the specified package(s) without >> upgrading any dependencies. It will only download and install the >> package(s) if they are not already installed. If any dependencies of >> the package(s) are not already installed, the command will fail. >> >> In other words, emerge -U upgrades packages and their dependencies, >> while emerge -N only installs packages without upgrading any >> dependencies. >> > This is a good example of why ChatGPT cannot be trusted. > When ChatGPT doesn't know the answer to something, rather than saying > it doesn't know the answer, it just makes it up. > > The difference between -U and -N as explained by ChatGPT is wrong; in > fact, it has nothing to do with dependencies. > > To have a truthful answer, let's not ask ChatGPT and instead look at > `man 5 emerge`: > > --newuse, -N > Tells emerge to include installed packages where USE > flags have changed since compilation. This option also > implies the --selective option. USE flag changes > include: > > A USE flag was added to a package. A USE flag was > removed from a package. A USE flag was > turned on for > a package. A USE flag was turned off for a package. > > --changed-use, -U > Tells emerge to include installed packages where USE > flags have changed since installation. This option > also implies the --selective option. Unlike --newuse, > the --changed-use option does not trigger > reinstallation when flags that the user has not > enabled are added orremoved. > > In a nutshell, `--newuse` or `-N` rebuilds packages when USE flags have > changed, regardless of whether the changed USE flags affect the outcome > Where as `--changed-use` or `-U` rebuilds packages when the USE flags > have changed, AND the changed USE flags affect the outcome. > > For example, suppose you are on an openRC system, and a package > introduces a new `systemd` USE flag; > With `-N`: this package will be rebuilt with `-systemd` > With `-U`: this package will not be rebuilt > The info from the man page is correct. They do two different things. The -N will mean more recompiles of packages but it also means that when a USE flag change is made, it also changes any packages that relates to that. In other words, it goes deeper. What all this comes down to, how stable and how consistent do you want your system to be? On some systems, it may get away with doing it the quick and fast way. In some cases it may not. It seemed to me that for my system, going a bit deeper worked better for me. I'd rather rebuild more packages and have a more stable system than take a quicker way and have problems every once in a while. If one wants to try the shorter way, see if it works for them, then that can be done. If it works, great. If not, switching to a method that takes longer and sorts through more packages may be needed. It's all up to the person sitting in the chair. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 22:10:32 -0600, the...@sys-concept.com wrote: > !'ve asked ChatGPT for explanation and here is what I got: > > Here are the differences between emerge -U and emerge -N: > > emerge -U: This option upgrades the specified package(s) to the latest > available version. It will first download the new version, then build > and install it. If a dependency of the package being upgraded also > needs to be upgraded, it will also be upgraded. > > emerge -N: This option installs the specified package(s) without > upgrading any dependencies. It will only download and install the > package(s) if they are not already installed. If any dependencies of > the package(s) are not already installed, the command will fail. So now we kn ow, ChatGPT is case-insensitive, it gave you answers for -u and -n. It's probably easier to read the man page than ask a bot to make a guess :( -- Neil Bothwick Hyperbole is absolutely the worst mistake you can possibly make pgppjQANgv7wq.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
On Mon, 2023-04-10 at 22:10 -0600, the...@sys-concept.com wrote: > On 4/10/23 18:53, Dale wrote: > > > I've asked ChatGPT for explanation and here is what I got: > > Here are the differences between emerge -U and emerge -N: > > emerge -U: This option upgrades the specified package(s) to the > latest available version. It will first download the new version, > then build and install it. If a dependency of the package being > upgraded also needs to be upgraded, it will also be upgraded. > > emerge -N: This option installs the specified package(s) without > upgrading any dependencies. It will only download and install the > package(s) if they are not already installed. If any dependencies of > the package(s) are not already installed, the command will fail. > > In other words, emerge -U upgrades packages and their dependencies, > while emerge -N only installs packages without upgrading any > dependencies. > This is a good example of why ChatGPT cannot be trusted. When ChatGPT doesn't know the answer to something, rather than saying it doesn't know the answer, it just makes it up. The difference between -U and -N as explained by ChatGPT is wrong; in fact, it has nothing to do with dependencies. To have a truthful answer, let's not ask ChatGPT and instead look at `man 5 emerge`: --newuse, -N Tells emerge to include installed packages where USE flags have changed since compilation. This option also implies the --selective option. USE flag changes include: A USE flag was added to a package. A USE flag was removed from a package. A USE flag was turned on for a package. A USE flag was turned off for a package. --changed-use, -U Tells emerge to include installed packages where USE flags have changed since installation. This option also implies the --selective option. Unlike --newuse, the --changed-use option does not trigger reinstallation when flags that the user has not enabled are added orremoved. In a nutshell, `--newuse` or `-N` rebuilds packages when USE flags have changed, regardless of whether the changed USE flags affect the outcome Where as `--changed-use` or `-U` rebuilds packages when the USE flags have changed, AND the changed USE flags affect the outcome. For example, suppose you are on an openRC system, and a package introduces a new `systemd` USE flag; With `-N`: this package will be rebuilt with `-systemd` With `-U`: this package will not be rebuilt -- Julien signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
On 4/10/23 18:53, Dale wrote: the...@sys-concept.com wrote: Is it better to us emerge -U or emerge -N I've always done -N but it didn't go very smoothly it seems to me -U might be better option but it takes longer. Right now I'm doing -U and it is compiling 549-packages. . I always do both except I use the lower case 'u'. I started using Gentoo back in 2003. Over the years, I added/changed options to emerge until I got a good sane system that works as expected and is stable. My command is emerge -auDN world and it has worked for years. One difference, I update once a week and on occasion two weeks if I have something going on and need to wait. I'd think tho, if one goes a long time between updates, my way would result in a longer compile time but also a system that is more stable or clean. Everyone has their own way. If what a person does is working, by all means do it that way. I picked my way because of problems I ran into. The solutions to those problems resulted in the command I use. If one waits a long time between updates, more packages will have updated and result in more updates regardless of the options. In that case, any USE changes would apply to those packages anyway. If one updates often, as I do, then the way I do it may have benefits and result in a more stable system, even tho it requires more packages to compile. Hope that helps. Dale :-) :-) I've asked ChatGPT for explanation and here is what I got: Here are the differences between emerge -U and emerge -N: emerge -U: This option upgrades the specified package(s) to the latest available version. It will first download the new version, then build and install it. If a dependency of the package being upgraded also needs to be upgraded, it will also be upgraded. emerge -N: This option installs the specified package(s) without upgrading any dependencies. It will only download and install the package(s) if they are not already installed. If any dependencies of the package(s) are not already installed, the command will fail. In other words, emerge -U upgrades packages and their dependencies, while emerge -N only installs packages without upgrading any dependencies.
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
the...@sys-concept.com wrote: > Is it better to us emerge -U or emerge -N > > I've always done -N but it didn't go very smoothly it seems to me -U > might be better option but it takes longer. > Right now I'm doing -U and it is compiling 549-packages. > > . > I always do both except I use the lower case 'u'. I started using Gentoo back in 2003. Over the years, I added/changed options to emerge until I got a good sane system that works as expected and is stable. My command is emerge -auDN world and it has worked for years. One difference, I update once a week and on occasion two weeks if I have something going on and need to wait. I'd think tho, if one goes a long time between updates, my way would result in a longer compile time but also a system that is more stable or clean. Everyone has their own way. If what a person does is working, by all means do it that way. I picked my way because of problems I ran into. The solutions to those problems resulted in the command I use. If one waits a long time between updates, more packages will have updated and result in more updates regardless of the options. In that case, any USE changes would apply to those packages anyway. If one updates often, as I do, then the way I do it may have benefits and result in a more stable system, even tho it requires more packages to compile. Hope that helps. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
On 4/10/23 11:11, hitachi303 wrote: Am 10.04.23 um 18:44 schrieb the...@sys-concept.com: Is it better to us emerge -U or emerge -N I've always done -N but it didn't go very smoothly it seems to me -U might be better option but it takes longer. Right now I'm doing -U and it is compiling 549-packages. Just out of curiosity: Is that your update process for world or in which context do you use it? If this is your update process, with which other options do you combine it? 549-packages is quit a lot. emerege -uDUavq @world Haven't done done any updates since Dec. I think that is why. -U came up with 549-packages -N came up with 592-packages
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
Am 10.04.23 um 18:44 schrieb the...@sys-concept.com: Is it better to us emerge -U or emerge -N I've always done -N but it didn't go very smoothly it seems to me -U might be better option but it takes longer. Right now I'm doing -U and it is compiling 549-packages. Just out of curiosity: Is that your update process for world or in which context do you use it? If this is your update process, with which other options do you combine it? 549-packages is quit a lot.
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
On Mon, 2023-04-10 at 10:44 -0600, the...@sys-concept.com wrote: > Is it better to us emerge -U or emerge -N > > I've always done -N but it didn't go very smoothly it seems to me -U might be > better option but it takes longer. > Right now I'm doing -U and it is compiling 549-packages. > Since I learned the difference, I've always only done -U (--changed- use) unless I need to change the value of some new flags. The lynchpin is this: "Unlike --newuse, the --changed-use option does not trigger reinstallation when flags that the user has not en‐abled are added or removed." As far as "better"? Use the option that fits your need or desire. If you don't care to rebuild a package when a new use flag is added, you need not use --newuse.
[gentoo-user] emerge -U or emerge -N
Is it better to us emerge -U or emerge -N I've always done -N but it didn't go very smoothly it seems to me -U might be better option but it takes longer. Right now I'm doing -U and it is compiling 549-packages.
