Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[james]

On 08/10/2016 10:20 AM, Michael Mol wrote:

On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 10:13:29 AM james wrote:

On 08/10/2016 07:45 AM, Michael Mol wrote:

On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 05:22:22 PM james wrote:




I did a quick test with games-arcade/xgalaga. It's an old, quirky game
with sporadic lag variations. On a workstation with 32G ram and (8) 4GHz
64bit cores, very lightly loaded, there is no reason for in game lag.
Your previous settings made it much better and quicker the vast majority
of the time; but not optimal (always responsive). Experiences tell me if
I can tweak a system so that that game stays responsive whilst the
application(s) mix is concurrently running then the  quick
test+parameter settings is reasonably well behaved. So thats becomes a
baseline for further automated tests and fine tuning for a system under
study.


What kind of storage are you running on? What filesystem? If you're still
hitting swap, are you using a swap file or a swap partition?


The system I mostly referenced, rarely hits swap in days of uptime. It's
the keyboard latency, while playing the game, that I try to tune away,
while other codes are running. I try very hard to keep codes from
swapping out, cause ultimately I'm most interested in clusters that keep
everything running (in memory). AkA ultimate utilization of Apache-Spark
and other "in-memory" techniques.


Gotcha. dirty_bytes and dirty_background_bytes won't apply to anything that
doesn't call mmap() with a file backing or perform some other file I/O. If
you're not doing those things, they should have little to no impact.


Background needed:: I'm one of those (idealists?) that deeply believes 
the holy grail of computing will soon emerge (nice pun huh). That is
that clusters, local clusters will run all workloads that multicore 
systems currently do. So a bunch of old crap can become a beautiful
computational system, whilst I sit back and sip exotic beverages and 
enjoy my day; video training to go to the gym and dominate the young 
studs on the court New hardware (aka new computers and cosmetic 
surgery) will do the rest.


So an incredible variety of memory, storage and file systems will 
ultimately need to be tested. I try to stay simple and focused (believe 
it  or not). Initially the thought is to run a primitive desktop, like
lxde or lxqt and use those under utilized resources as 
node-computational contributors, whist still remaining responsive at the 
keyboard (xgalaga is a quick and dirty test for this). So, you now have 
a wonderful cover story is the boss catches you noodling around with 
swords and sorcery to, you can tell'm you looking for subtle latency 
issues.. The game speeds up and slows down, with zero swapping, due 
to my I suspect mostly as VM issues and MM issues.
An 8 core never goes above 0.2 on the load and only rarely saturates one 
core, for a transient instance. Even if xgalaga is a single thread game, 
it does not explain this transient keyboard lag. I'm open to other forms 
of quick at-the-keyboard graphical tests as a quick and dirty 
measurement of overall system attentiveness to pending addtional 
input/workload demands. After that is happy, with a given set of running 
codes (test-vectors) I can get a very quick feedback of performance this 
way.


For deeper studies, I like trace-cmd/Ftrace/KernelShark, but those are 
like zabbix on utilization and analytical studies. I use xgalaga as a 
quick and dirty; but am surely open to new codes for that sort of quick 
and easy feedback.





Ideal values for dirty_bytes and dirty_background_bytes will depend heavily on
the nature of your underlying storage. Dozens of other things might be tweaked
depending on what filesystem you're using. Which is why I was asking about
those things.


A myriad of combinations exist. So picking some common combinations, 
will allow for others to test my work, when it is package up for sharing 
and testing. For me eventually automating a collection of 'test vectors' 
is what's important, not the first few test-vectors themselvs. Then the 
pathway forward for other collections of running processes can become 
yet another collection of 'test vectors'. No limit on these collectives. 
Eventually a customer will step forward and define the collective of 
'test vectors', so I do hope to work with/for one of the more 
progressive vendors, eventually, in these efforts. Certainly sharing the 
work, openly, is far more important to me. For now, I start with things 
I like, know and have some familiarity with; no magic on these choices.




Combined codes running simultaneously never hits the HD (no swappiness)
but still there is keyboard lag.


Where are you measuring this lag? How much lag are we talking about?


Remember, I'm an EE and complex fluids computational kind of guy, so I 
have no problem drudging down the sparse or full matrix types of 
mentally inebriating adventuresome calculations, like computational 
chemistry. But, since this approach is 

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Michael Mol]

On Wednesday, August 10, 2016 10:13:29 AM james wrote:
> On 08/10/2016 07:45 AM, Michael Mol wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 05:22:22 PM james wrote:

> >> 
> >> I did a quick test with games-arcade/xgalaga. It's an old, quirky game
> >> with sporadic lag variations. On a workstation with 32G ram and (8) 4GHz
> >> 64bit cores, very lightly loaded, there is no reason for in game lag.
> >> Your previous settings made it much better and quicker the vast majority
> >> of the time; but not optimal (always responsive). Experiences tell me if
> >> I can tweak a system so that that game stays responsive whilst the
> >> application(s) mix is concurrently running then the  quick
> >> test+parameter settings is reasonably well behaved. So thats becomes a
> >> baseline for further automated tests and fine tuning for a system under
> >> study.
> > 
> > What kind of storage are you running on? What filesystem? If you're still
> > hitting swap, are you using a swap file or a swap partition?
> 
> The system I mostly referenced, rarely hits swap in days of uptime. It's
> the keyboard latency, while playing the game, that I try to tune away,
> while other codes are running. I try very hard to keep codes from
> swapping out, cause ultimately I'm most interested in clusters that keep
> everything running (in memory). AkA ultimate utilization of Apache-Spark
> and other "in-memory" techniques.

Gotcha. dirty_bytes and dirty_background_bytes won't apply to anything that 
doesn't call mmap() with a file backing or perform some other file I/O. If 
you're not doing those things, they should have little to no impact.

Ideal values for dirty_bytes and dirty_background_bytes will depend heavily on 
the nature of your underlying storage. Dozens of other things might be tweaked 
depending on what filesystem you're using. Which is why I was asking about 
those things.

> 
> 
> Combined codes running simultaneously never hits the HD (no swappiness)
> but still there is keyboard lag.

Where are you measuring this lag? How much lag are we talking about?

> Not that it is actually affecting the
> running codes to any appreciable degree, but it is a test I run so that
> the cluster nodes will benefit from still being (low latency) quickly
> attentive to interactions with the cluster master processes, regardless
> of workloads on the nodes. Sure its  not totally accurate, but so far
> this semantical approach, is pretty darn close. It's not part of this
> conversation (on VM etc) but ultimately getting this right solves one of
> the biggest problems for building any cluster; that is workload
> invocation, shedding and management to optimize resource utilization,
> regardless of the orchestration(s) used to manage the nodes. Swapping to
> disc is verbotim, in my (ultimate) goals and target scenarios.
> 
> No worries, you have given me enough info and ideas to move forward with
> testing and tuning. I'm going to evolve these  into more precisely
> controlled and monitored experiments, noting exact hardware differences;
> that should complete the tuning of the Memory Management tasks, within
> acceptable confine  . Then automate it for later checking on cluster
> test runs with various hardware setups. Eventually these test will be
> extended to a variety of  memory and storage hardware, once the
> techniques are automated. No worries, I now have enough ideas and
> details (thanks to you) to move forward.

You've got me curious, now you're going to go run off and play with your 
thought problems and not share! Tease!

> 
> >> Perhaps Zabbix +TSdB can get me further down the pathway.  Time
> >> sequenced and analyzed data is over kill for this (xgalaga) test, but
> >> those coalesced test-vectors  will be most useful for me as I seek a
> >> gentoo centric pathway for low latency clusters (on bare metal).
> > 
> > If you're looking to avoid Zabbix interfering with your performance,
> > you'll
> > want the Zabbix server and web interface on a machine separate from the
> > machines you're trying to optimize.
> 
> agreed.
> 
> Thanks Mike,
> James

np
-- 
:wq

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Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[james]

On 08/10/2016 07:45 AM, Michael Mol wrote:

On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 05:22:22 PM james wrote:

On 08/09/2016 01:41 PM, Michael Mol wrote:

On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 01:23:57 PM james wrote:



The exception is my storage cluster, which has dirty_bytes much higher, as
it's very solidly battery backed, so I can use its oodles of memory as a
write cache, giving its kernel time to reorder writes and flush data to
disk efficiently, and letting clients very rapidly return from write
requests.

Are these TSdB (time series data) by chance?


No; my TS data is stored in a MySQL VM whose storage is host-local.



OK, so have your systematically experimented with these parameter
settings, collected and correlated the data, domain (needs) specific ?


Not with these particular settings; what they *do* is fairly straightforward,
so establishing configuration constraints is a function of knowing the capacity
and behavior of the underlying hardware; there's little need to guess.

For hypothetical example, let's say you're using a single spinning rust disk
with an enabled write cache of 64MiB. (Common enough, although you should
ensure the write cache is disabled if you find yourself at risk of poweroff. You
should be able to script that with nut, or even acpid, though.) That means the
disk could queue up 64MiB of data to be be written, and efficiently reorder
writes to flush them to disk faster. So, in that circumstance, perhaps you'd
set dirty_background_bytes to 64MiB, so that the kernel will try to feed it a
full cache's worth of data at once, giving the drive a chance to optimize its
write ordering.

For another hypothetical example, let's say you're using a parity RAID array
with three data disks and two parity disks, with a strip length of 1MiB. Now,
with parity RAID, if you modify a small bit of data, when that data gets
committed to disk, the parity bits need to get updated as well. That means
that small write requires first reading the relevant portions of all three data
disks, holding them in memory, adjusting the portion you wrote to, calculating
the parity, and writing the result out to all five disks. But if you make a
*large* write that replaces all of the data in the stripe (so, a well-placed
3MiB write, in this case), you don't have to read the disks to find out what
data was already there, and can simply write out your data and parity. In this
case, perhaps you want to set dirty_background_bytes to 3MiB (or some multiple
thereof), so that the kernel doesn't try flushing data to disk until it has a
full stripe's worth of material, and can forgo a time-consuming initial read.

For a final hypothetical example, consider SSDs. SSDs share one interesting
thing in common with parity RAID arrays...they have an optimum write size
that's a lot larger than 4KiB. When you write a small amount of data to an
SSD, it has to read an entire block of NAND flash, modify it in its own RAM,
and write that entire block back out to NAND flash. (All of this happens
internally to the SSD.) So, for efficiency, you want to give the SSD an entire
block's worth of data to write at a time, if you can. So you might set
dirty_background_bytes to the size of the SSD's block, because the fewer the
write cycles, the longer it will last. (Different model SSDs will have different
block sizes, ranging anywhere from 512KiB to 8MiB, currently.)



Ok, after reading some of the docs and postings, several time, I see how 
to focus in on the exact hardware on a specific system. The nice thing 
about clusters is they are largely identical systems, or groups of 
identical systems, in quantity so that helps with scaling issues 
testing specific hardware, individually, should lead to near-optimal 
default settings so they can bee deployed as cluster nodes, later.




As unikernels collide with my work on building up  minimized and
optimized linux clusters, my pathway forward is to use several small
clusters, where the codes/frameworks can be changed, even the
tweaked-tuned kernels and DFS and note the performance differences for
very specific domain solutions. My examples are quite similar to that
aforementioned  flight sim above, but the ordinary and uncommon
workloads of regular admin (dev/ops) work is only a different domain.

Ideas on automating the exploration of these settings
(scripts/traces/keystores) are keenly of interest to me, just so you know.


I think I missed some context, despite rereading what was already discussed.


Yea, I was thinking out loud here. just ignore this...


I use OpenRC, just so you know. I also have a motherboard with IOMMU
that is currently has questionable settings in the kernel config file. I
cannot find consensus if/how IOMMU that affects IO with the Sata HD
devices versus mm mapped peripherals in the context of 4.x kernel
options. I'm trying very hard here to avoid a deep dive on these issues,
so trendy strategies are most welcome, as workstation and cluster node
optimizations are all I'm 

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Michael Mol]

On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 05:22:22 PM james wrote:
> On 08/09/2016 01:41 PM, Michael Mol wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 01:23:57 PM james wrote:

> > The exception is my storage cluster, which has dirty_bytes much higher, as
> > it's very solidly battery backed, so I can use its oodles of memory as a
> > write cache, giving its kernel time to reorder writes and flush data to
> > disk efficiently, and letting clients very rapidly return from write
> > requests.
> Are these TSdB (time series data) by chance?

No; my TS data is stored in a MySQL VM whose storage is host-local.

> 
> OK, so have your systematically experimented with these parameter
> settings, collected and correlated the data, domain (needs) specific ?

Not with these particular settings; what they *do* is fairly straightforward, 
so establishing configuration constraints is a function of knowing the capacity 
and behavior of the underlying hardware; there's little need to guess.

For hypothetical example, let's say you're using a single spinning rust disk 
with an enabled write cache of 64MiB. (Common enough, although you should 
ensure the write cache is disabled if you find yourself at risk of poweroff. 
You 
should be able to script that with nut, or even acpid, though.) That means the 
disk could queue up 64MiB of data to be be written, and efficiently reorder 
writes to flush them to disk faster. So, in that circumstance, perhaps you'd 
set dirty_background_bytes to 64MiB, so that the kernel will try to feed it a 
full cache's worth of data at once, giving the drive a chance to optimize its 
write ordering.

For another hypothetical example, let's say you're using a parity RAID array 
with three data disks and two parity disks, with a strip length of 1MiB. Now, 
with parity RAID, if you modify a small bit of data, when that data gets 
committed to disk, the parity bits need to get updated as well. That means 
that small write requires first reading the relevant portions of all three data 
disks, holding them in memory, adjusting the portion you wrote to, calculating 
the parity, and writing the result out to all five disks. But if you make a 
*large* write that replaces all of the data in the stripe (so, a well-placed 
3MiB write, in this case), you don't have to read the disks to find out what 
data was already there, and can simply write out your data and parity. In this 
case, perhaps you want to set dirty_background_bytes to 3MiB (or some multiple 
thereof), so that the kernel doesn't try flushing data to disk until it has a 
full stripe's worth of material, and can forgo a time-consuming initial read.

For a final hypothetical example, consider SSDs. SSDs share one interesting 
thing in common with parity RAID arrays...they have an optimum write size 
that's a lot larger than 4KiB. When you write a small amount of data to an 
SSD, it has to read an entire block of NAND flash, modify it in its own RAM, 
and write that entire block back out to NAND flash. (All of this happens 
internally to the SSD.) So, for efficiency, you want to give the SSD an entire 
block's worth of data to write at a time, if you can. So you might set 
dirty_background_bytes to the size of the SSD's block, because the fewer the 
write cycles, the longer it will last. (Different model SSDs will have 
different 
block sizes, ranging anywhere from 512KiB to 8MiB, currently.)

> 
> As unikernels collide with my work on building up  minimized and
> optimized linux clusters, my pathway forward is to use several small
> clusters, where the codes/frameworks can be changed, even the
> tweaked-tuned kernels and DFS and note the performance differences for
> very specific domain solutions. My examples are quite similar to that
> aforementioned  flight sim above, but the ordinary and uncommon
> workloads of regular admin (dev/ops) work is only a different domain.
> 
> Ideas on automating the exploration of these settings
> (scripts/traces/keystores) are keenly of interest to me, just so you know.

I think I missed some context, despite rereading what was already discussed.

> 
> >> I use OpenRC, just so you know. I also have a motherboard with IOMMU
> >> that is currently has questionable settings in the kernel config file. I
> >> cannot find consensus if/how IOMMU that affects IO with the Sata HD
> >> devices versus mm mapped peripherals in the context of 4.x kernel
> >> options. I'm trying very hard here to avoid a deep dive on these issues,
> >> so trendy strategies are most welcome, as workstation and cluster node
> >> optimizations are all I'm really working on atm.
> > 
> > Honestly, I'd suggest you deep dive. An image once, with clarity, will
> > last
> > you a lot longer than ongoing fuzzy and trendy images from people whose
> > hardware and workflow is likely to be different from yours.
> > 
> > The settings I provided should be absolutely fine for most use cases. Only
> > exception would be mobile devices with spinning rust, but those are
> > 

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[james]

On 08/09/2016 01:41 PM, Michael Mol wrote:

On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 01:23:57 PM james wrote:

On 08/09/2016 09:17 AM, Michael Mol wrote:

On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 09:13:31 AM james wrote:

On 08/09/2016 07:42 AM, Michael Mol wrote:

On Monday, August 08, 2016 10:45:09 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:

On 08/08/2016 19:20, Michael Mol wrote:

On Monday, August 08, 2016 06:52:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:

On 08/08/2016 17:02, Michael Mol wrote:



I use Zabbix extensively at work, and have the Zabbix agent on my
workstation reporting back various supported metrics. There's a great
deal you can use (and--my favorite--abuse) Zabbix for, especially once
you understand how it thinks.


Congradualtions! Of the net-analyzer crowd, you've manage to find one I
have not spent time with


Oh, man, are you in for a treat. I recently had a conversation with a guy I
happened to sit next to while traveling about how, were I in his position, I'd
improve his cash crop and hydroponics operations (he periodically tests soil
and sunlight properties) continually using a combination of cheap, custom
probes and SBCs, feeding the data into Zabbix for monitoring and trend
analysis / prediction. Zabbix will do time-series graphing and analysis of
arbitrary input data; it may have been designed for watching interface
counters, but there's no reason it need be limited to that...


Not sure of your tendencies, but yea, I tend to be more hardware and EE 
oriented, than CS. Yep, I spent too many years with time-sequenced data 
(turds) to not be totally excited about what we can now do with 
clusters, analog (16 bit+) IO  and enough processors and memory to keep
a simulation going and in RT(color).  You sure know how to instigate an 
itch.


Besides, as I transcend  retirement, I'm looking for greener  pastures
and methodologies to enhance da(tm) dream state  ..
(thx)



Any specific kernel tweaks?


Most of my tweaks for KDE revolved around tuning mysqld itself. But for
sysctls improving workstation responsiveness as it relates to memory
interactions with I/O, these are my go-tos:



vm.dirty_background_bytes = 1048576
vm.dirty_bytes = 10485760
vm.swappiness = 0


Mine are::
cat dirty_bytes
0
cat dirty_background_bytes
0


So, that means you have vm.dirty_bytes_ratio and vm.dirty_background_ratio
set, instead. I forget what those default to, but I think
dirty_bacgkround_ratio defaults to something like 10, which means *10%* of
your memory may get used for buffering disk I/O before it starts writing data
to disk. dirty_bytes_ratio will necessarily be higher, which means that if
you're performing seriously write-intensive activities on a system with 32GiB
of RAM, you may find yourself with a system that will halt until it finishes
flushing 3+GiB of data to disk.


cat swappiness
60


Yeah, you want that set to lower than that.




vm.dirty_background_bytes ensures that any data (i.e. from mmap or
fwrite, not from swapping) waiting to be written to disk *starts*
getting written to disk once you've got at least the configured amount
(1MB) of data waiting. (If you've got a disk controller with
battery-backed or flash-backed write cache, you might consider
increasing this to some significant fraction of your write cache. I.e.
if you've got a 1GB FBWC with 768MB of that dedicated to write cache,
you might set this to 512MB or so. Depending on your workload. I/O
tuning is for those of us who enjoy the dark arts.)


vm.dirty_bytes says that once you've got the configured amount (10MB) of
data waiting to be disk, then no more asynchronous I/O is permitted
until you have no more data waiting; all outstanding writes must be
finished first. (My rule of thumb is to have this between 2-10 times the
value of vm.dirty_background_bytes. Though I'm really trying to avoid it
being high enough that it could take more than 50ms to transfer to disk;
that way, any stalls that do happen are almost imperceptible.)



You want vm.dirty_background_bytes to be high enough that your hardware
doesn't spend its time powered on if it doesn't have to be, and so that
your hardware can transfer data in large, efficient, streamable chunks.



You want vm.dirty_bytes enough higher than your first number so that
your hardware has enough time to spin up and transfer data before you
put the hammer down and say, "all right, nobody else gets to queue
writes until all the waiting data has reached disk."

You want vm.dirty_bytes *low* enough that when you *do* have to put that
hammer down, it doesn't interfere with your perceptions of a responsive
system. (And in a server context, you want it low enough that things
can't time out--or be pushed into timing out--waiting for it. Call your
user attention a matter of timing out expecting things to respond to
you, and the same principle applies...)

Now, vm.swappiness? That's a weighting factor for how quickly the kernel
should try moving memory to swap to be able to speedily respond to new
allocations. Me, I prefer the 

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Michael Mol]

On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 09:09:53 AM Daniel Frey wrote:
> On 08/09/2016 05:42 AM, Michael Mol wrote:
> > I used Thunderbird for years, but I eventually had to stop when it would,
> > averaging once a month (though sometimes not for a couple months,
> > sometimes a couple times a week) explode in memory consumption and drive
> > the entire system unresponsively into swap.
> 
> I've been using thunderbird exclusively on my PC and haven't seen this
> particular issue. When was the last time you tried it?

I think I gave up on Thunderbird around February or March? Dunno. It was 
earlier this year.

> 
> I've probably got between 8k and 10k messages in it right now. Memory
> consumption is 3.3% of 8GB and I do see every 30 seconds or so
> thunderbird wakes up and does something for a few seconds, using 8-10%
> of CPU while it does. But I've never noticed it actually doing anything
> (like slowing the system to a crawl.)

I've got a few hundred thousand messages. Not interested in asking the thing 
for an exact count, as that takes a while. ;)

Thing is, I'd go for weeks, just fine, only 700MB or so of memory consumed. 
Then, abruptly, its memory consumed would climb to fill all 8GB of my physical 
memory. And if it happened over night, it'd be to about 1.4GB of swap before 
the Zabbix agent stopped sending telemetry to my collector...

-- 
:wq

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Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Alan McKinnon]

On 09/08/2016 18:09, Daniel Frey wrote:
> On 08/09/2016 05:42 AM, Michael Mol wrote:
>> I used Thunderbird for years, but I eventually had to stop when it would, 
>> averaging once a month (though sometimes not for a couple months, sometimes 
>> a 
>> couple times a week) explode in memory consumption and drive the entire 
>> system 
>> unresponsively into swap.
>>
> 
> I've been using thunderbird exclusively on my PC and haven't seen this
> particular issue. When was the last time you tried it?
> 
> I've probably got between 8k and 10k messages in it right now. Memory
> consumption is 3.3% of 8GB and I do see every 30 seconds or so
> thunderbird wakes up and does something for a few seconds, using 8-10%
> of CPU while it does. But I've never noticed it actually doing anything
> (like slowing the system to a crawl.)
> 
> Dan
> 
> 


Every time I've seen Thunderbird stuuter and stall, it's been network
related. Usually I'm trying to access a large IMAP store remotely (that
tends to stall all IMAP clients to some degree depending on how well the
system deals with blocking).

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Michael Mol]

On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 01:23:57 PM james wrote:
> On 08/09/2016 09:17 AM, Michael Mol wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 09:13:31 AM james wrote:
> >> On 08/09/2016 07:42 AM, Michael Mol wrote:
> >> > On Monday, August 08, 2016 10:45:09 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >> >> On 08/08/2016 19:20, Michael Mol wrote:
> >> >>> On Monday, August 08, 2016 06:52:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >>  On 08/08/2016 17:02, Michael Mol wrote:

> > I use Zabbix extensively at work, and have the Zabbix agent on my
> > workstation reporting back various supported metrics. There's a great
> > deal you can use (and--my favorite--abuse) Zabbix for, especially once
> > you understand how it thinks.
> 
> Congradualtions! Of the net-analyzer crowd, you've manage to find one I
> have not spent time with

Oh, man, are you in for a treat. I recently had a conversation with a guy I 
happened to sit next to while traveling about how, were I in his position, I'd 
improve his cash crop and hydroponics operations (he periodically tests soil 
and sunlight properties) continually using a combination of cheap, custom 
probes and SBCs, feeding the data into Zabbix for monitoring and trend 
analysis / prediction. Zabbix will do time-series graphing and analysis of 
arbitrary input data; it may have been designed for watching interface 
counters, but there's no reason it need be limited to that...

> 
> >> Any specific kernel tweaks?
> > 
> > Most of my tweaks for KDE revolved around tuning mysqld itself. But for
> > sysctls improving workstation responsiveness as it relates to memory
> > interactions with I/O, these are my go-tos:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > vm.dirty_background_bytes = 1048576
> > vm.dirty_bytes = 10485760
> > vm.swappiness = 0
> 
> Mine are::
> cat dirty_bytes
> 0
> cat dirty_background_bytes
> 0

So, that means you have vm.dirty_bytes_ratio and vm.dirty_background_ratio 
set, instead. I forget what those default to, but I think 
dirty_bacgkround_ratio defaults to something like 10, which means *10%* of 
your memory may get used for buffering disk I/O before it starts writing data 
to disk. dirty_bytes_ratio will necessarily be higher, which means that if 
you're performing seriously write-intensive activities on a system with 32GiB 
of RAM, you may find yourself with a system that will halt until it finishes 
flushing 3+GiB of data to disk.

> cat swappiness
> 60

Yeah, you want that set to lower than that.

> 
> > vm.dirty_background_bytes ensures that any data (i.e. from mmap or
> > fwrite, not from swapping) waiting to be written to disk *starts*
> > getting written to disk once you've got at least the configured amount
> > (1MB) of data waiting. (If you've got a disk controller with
> > battery-backed or flash-backed write cache, you might consider
> > increasing this to some significant fraction of your write cache. I.e.
> > if you've got a 1GB FBWC with 768MB of that dedicated to write cache,
> > you might set this to 512MB or so. Depending on your workload. I/O
> > tuning is for those of us who enjoy the dark arts.)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > vm.dirty_bytes says that once you've got the configured amount (10MB) of
> > data waiting to be disk, then no more asynchronous I/O is permitted
> > until you have no more data waiting; all outstanding writes must be
> > finished first. (My rule of thumb is to have this between 2-10 times the
> > value of vm.dirty_background_bytes. Though I'm really trying to avoid it
> > being high enough that it could take more than 50ms to transfer to disk;
> > that way, any stalls that do happen are almost imperceptible.)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > You want vm.dirty_background_bytes to be high enough that your hardware
> > doesn't spend its time powered on if it doesn't have to be, and so that
> > your hardware can transfer data in large, efficient, streamable chunks.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > You want vm.dirty_bytes enough higher than your first number so that
> > your hardware has enough time to spin up and transfer data before you
> > put the hammer down and say, "all right, nobody else gets to queue
> > writes until all the waiting data has reached disk."
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > You want vm.dirty_bytes *low* enough that when you *do* have to put that
> > hammer down, it doesn't interfere with your perceptions of a responsive
> > system. (And in a server context, you want it low enough that things
> > can't time out--or be pushed into timing out--waiting for it. Call your
> > user attention a matter of timing out expecting things to respond to
> > you, and the same principle applies...)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Now, vm.swappiness? That's a weighting factor for how quickly the kernel
> > should try moving memory to swap to be able to speedily respond to new
> > allocations. Me, I prefer the kernel to not preemptively move
> > lesser-used data to swap, because that's going to be a few hundred
> > megabytes worth of data all associated with one application, and it'll
> > be a real drag when I switch back to the 

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[james]

On 08/09/2016 09:17 AM, Michael Mol wrote:

On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 09:13:31 AM james wrote:


On 08/09/2016 07:42 AM, Michael Mol wrote:



> On Monday, August 08, 2016 10:45:09 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:



>> On 08/08/2016 19:20, Michael Mol wrote:



>>> On Monday, August 08, 2016 06:52:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:



 On 08/08/2016 17:02, Michael Mol wrote:



>>> snip <<<



>>



>> KMail is the lost child of KDE for many months now, I reckon this



>> situation is just going to get worse and worse. I know for myself my



>> mail problems ceased the day I dumped KMail4 for claws and/or

thunderbird


>



> That's really, really sad.



>



> I used Thunderbird for years, but I eventually had to stop when it

would,


> averaging once a month (though sometimes not for a couple months,



> sometimes a couple times a week) explode in memory consumption and drive



> the entire system unresponsively into swap.



>



> I've tried claws from time to time due to other annoyances with



> Thunderbird, but I kept switching back. Not because I liked Tbird, but



> (IIRC) because of stability issues I had with claws.



>



> Even with the bugs it has, Kontact and Akonadi has been the most

reliable


> mail client I've used in the last year. When it gives me problems, I

know


> why, and I can address it. (Running a heavily tuned MySQLd instance



> behind Akonadi, for example...)



>



> I wish someone would pay me to fix this stuff; I'd be able to spend the



> time on it.







Perhaps an experiment. Locate some folks that know about how to promote



'crowd funding'. The propose a project like this, targeted at business



and user, to all pitch in. In fact, quite a few beloved open source



projects could benefit, if the idea of crowd funding took hold



on open source soft. Perhaps one of the foundations deeply involved in



the open source movement would get behind the idea?







KDE is very popular, so the concept or something similar might just have



legs, even if it only funds a series of grad-students or young



programmers to maintain good FOSS projects?




A wonderful thought. I rather expect KDE is already doing this, but if
not, they ought to. (I'm sure someone who commits code to KDE reads this
list...)



Certainly wouldn't cover someone like me who has a family to support,
but still.








AS a side note, I put 32G of ram on my system and still at times it is



laggy with little processor load and htop shows little <30% ram usage.



What tools do you use to track down mem. management issues?




I use Zabbix extensively at work, and have the Zabbix agent on my
workstation reporting back various supported metrics. There's a great
deal you can use (and--my favorite--abuse) Zabbix for, especially once
you understand how it thinks.


Congradualtions! Of the net-analyzer crowd, you've manage to find one I 
have not spent time with









Any specific kernel tweaks?




Most of my tweaks for KDE revolved around tuning mysqld itself. But for
sysctls improving workstation responsiveness as it relates to memory
interactions with I/O, these are my go-tos:



vm.dirty_background_bytes = 1048576
vm.dirty_bytes = 10485760
vm.swappiness = 0


Mine are::
cat dirty_bytes
0
cat dirty_background_bytes
0
cat swappiness
60




vm.dirty_background_bytes ensures that any data (i.e. from mmap or
fwrite, not from swapping) waiting to be written to disk *starts*
getting written to disk once you've got at least the configured amount
(1MB) of data waiting. (If you've got a disk controller with
battery-backed or flash-backed write cache, you might consider
increasing this to some significant fraction of your write cache. I.e.
if you've got a 1GB FBWC with 768MB of that dedicated to write cache,
you might set this to 512MB or so. Depending on your workload. I/O
tuning is for those of us who enjoy the dark arts.)



vm.dirty_bytes says that once you've got the configured amount (10MB) of
data waiting to be disk, then no more asynchronous I/O is permitted
until you have no more data waiting; all outstanding writes must be
finished first. (My rule of thumb is to have this between 2-10 times the
value of vm.dirty_background_bytes. Though I'm really trying to avoid it
being high enough that it could take more than 50ms to transfer to disk;
that way, any stalls that do happen are almost imperceptible.)



You want vm.dirty_background_bytes to be high enough that your hardware
doesn't spend its time powered on if it doesn't have to be, and so that
your hardware can transfer data in large, efficient, streamable chunks.



You want vm.dirty_bytes enough higher than your first number so that
your hardware has enough time to spin up and transfer data before you
put the hammer down and say, "all right, nobody else gets to queue
writes until all the waiting data has reached disk."



You want vm.dirty_bytes *low* enough that when you *do* have to put that
hammer down, it doesn't interfere 

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[james]

On 08/09/2016 09:06 AM, J. Roeleveld wrote:

On August 9, 2016 4:13:31 PM GMT+02:00, james  wrote:



AS a side note, I put 32G of ram on my system and still at times it is
laggy with little processor load and htop shows little <30% ram usage.
What tools do you use to track down mem. management issues?

Any specific kernel tweaks?



Try iotop


OK, so the gentoo wikis says the only kernel modes for iotop are


General setup
-> CPU/Task time and stats accounting
   [*] Enable extended accounting over taskstats
   [*] Enable per-task storage I/O accounting


Do you add any others? Do you build a specific kernel for these sorts of 
low level account and debug codes to work, as reading about, some
can cause noticable performance degredations. So do you have a special 
kernel to track these problem and then return to a production kernel,

or leave them in all the time?

curiously,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Daniel Frey]

On 08/09/2016 05:42 AM, Michael Mol wrote:
> I used Thunderbird for years, but I eventually had to stop when it would, 
> averaging once a month (though sometimes not for a couple months, sometimes a 
> couple times a week) explode in memory consumption and drive the entire 
> system 
> unresponsively into swap.
> 

I've been using thunderbird exclusively on my PC and haven't seen this
particular issue. When was the last time you tried it?

I've probably got between 8k and 10k messages in it right now. Memory
consumption is 3.3% of 8GB and I do see every 30 seconds or so
thunderbird wakes up and does something for a few seconds, using 8-10%
of CPU while it does. But I've never noticed it actually doing anything
(like slowing the system to a crawl.)

Dan

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Michael Mol]

On Tuesday, August 09, 2016 09:13:31 AM james wrote:
> On 08/09/2016 07:42 AM, Michael Mol wrote:
> > On Monday, August 08, 2016 10:45:09 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >> On 08/08/2016 19:20, Michael Mol wrote:
> >>> On Monday, August 08, 2016 06:52:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
>  On 08/08/2016 17:02, Michael Mol wrote:
> >>> snip <<<
> >>
> >> KMail is the lost child of KDE for many months now, I reckon this
> >> situation is just going to get worse and worse. I know for myself my
> >> mail problems ceased the day I dumped KMail4 for claws and/or thunderbird
> >
> > That's really, really sad.
> >
> > I used Thunderbird for years, but I eventually had to stop when it would,
> > averaging once a month (though sometimes not for a couple months,
> > sometimes a couple times a week) explode in memory consumption and drive
> > the entire system unresponsively into swap.
> >
> > I've tried claws from time to time due to other annoyances with
> > Thunderbird, but I kept switching back. Not because I liked Tbird, but
> > (IIRC) because of stability issues I had with claws.
> >
> > Even with the bugs it has, Kontact and Akonadi has been the most reliable
> > mail client I've used in the last year. When it gives me problems, I know
> > why, and I can address it. (Running a heavily tuned MySQLd instance
> > behind Akonadi, for example...)
> >
> > I wish someone would pay me to fix this stuff; I'd be able to spend the
> > time on it.
>
> Perhaps an experiment. Locate some folks that know about how to promote
> 'crowd funding'. The propose a project like this, targeted at business
> and user, to all pitch in. In fact, quite a few beloved open source
> projects could benefit, if the idea of crowd funding took hold
> on open source soft. Perhaps one of the foundations deeply involved in
> the open source movement would get behind the idea?
>
> KDE is very popular, so the concept or something similar might just have
> legs, even if it only funds a series of grad-students or young
> programmers to maintain good FOSS projects?

A wonderful thought. I rather expect KDE is already doing this, but if not, 
they ought to. (I'm
sure someone who commits code to KDE reads this list...)

Certainly wouldn't cover someone like me who has a family to support, but still.

>
> AS a side note, I put 32G of ram on my system and still at times it is
> laggy with little processor load and htop shows little <30% ram usage.
> What tools do you use to track down mem. management issues?

I use Zabbix extensively at work, and have the Zabbix agent on my workstation 
reporting
back various supported metrics. There's a great deal you can use (and--my 
favorite--
abuse) Zabbix for, especially once you understand how it thinks.

>
> Any specific kernel tweaks?

Most of my tweaks for KDE revolved around tuning mysqld itself. But for sysctls 
improving
workstation responsiveness as it relates to memory interactions with I/O, these 
are my go-
tos:

vm.*dirty*_background_bytes = 1048576
vm.*dirty*_bytes = 10485760
vm.*swap*piness = 0

vm.dirty_background_bytes ensures that any data (i.e. from mmap or fwrite, not 
from
swapping) waiting to be written to disk *starts* getting written to disk once 
you've got at
least the configured amount (1MB) of data waiting. (If you've got a disk 
controller with
battery-backed or flash-backed write cache, you might consider increasing this 
to some
significant fraction of your write cache. I.e. if you've got a 1GB FBWC with 
768MB of that
dedicated to write cache, you might set this to 512MB or so. Depending on your 
workload.
I/O tuning is for those of us who enjoy the dark arts.)

vm.dirty_bytes says that once you've got the configured amount (10MB) of data 
waiting to
be disk, then no more asynchronous I/O is permitted until you have no more data 
waiting;
all outstanding writes must be finished first. (My rule of thumb is to have 
this between 2-10
times the value of vm.dirty_background_bytes. Though I'm really trying to avoid 
it being
high enough that it could take more than 50ms to transfer to disk; that way, 
any stalls that
do happen are almost imperceptible.)

You want vm.dirty_background_bytes to be high enough that your hardware doesn't 
spend
its time powered on if it doesn't have to be, and so that your hardware can 
transfer data in
large, efficient, streamable chunks.

You want vm.dirty_bytes enough higher than your first number so that your 
hardware has
enough time to spin up and transfer data before you put the hammer down and 
say, "all
right, nobody else gets to queue writes until all the waiting data has reached 
disk."

You want vm.dirty_bytes *low* enough that when you *do* have to put that hammer 
down,
it doesn't interfere with your perceptions of a responsive system. (And in a 
server context,
you want it low enough that things can't time out--or be pushed into timing 
out--waiting for
it. Call your user attention a matter of timing out expecting things to respond 
to you, and
the same 

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[J. Roeleveld]

On August 9, 2016 4:13:31 PM GMT+02:00, james  wrote:
>On 08/09/2016 07:42 AM, Michael Mol wrote:
>> On Monday, August 08, 2016 10:45:09 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>> On 08/08/2016 19:20, Michael Mol wrote:
 On Monday, August 08, 2016 06:52:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 08/08/2016 17:02, Michael Mol wrote:
>
 snip <<<
>>> KMail is the lost child of KDE for many months now, I reckon this
>>> situation is just going to get worse and worse. I know for myself my
>>> mail problems ceased the day I dumped KMail4 for claws and/or
>thunderbird
>>
>> That's really, really sad.
>>
>> I used Thunderbird for years, but I eventually had to stop when it
>would,
>> averaging once a month (though sometimes not for a couple months,
>sometimes a
>> couple times a week) explode in memory consumption and drive the
>entire system
>> unresponsively into swap.
>>
>> I've tried claws from time to time due to other annoyances with
>Thunderbird,
>> but I kept switching back. Not because I liked Tbird, but (IIRC)
>because of
>> stability issues I had with claws.
>>
>> Even with the bugs it has, Kontact and Akonadi has been the most
>reliable mail
>> client I've used in the last year. When it gives me problems, I know
>why, and
>> I can address it. (Running a heavily tuned MySQLd instance behind
>Akonadi, for
>> example...)
>>
>> I wish someone would pay me to fix this stuff; I'd be able to spend
>the time on
>> it.
>
>Perhaps an experiment. Locate some folks that know about how to promote
>
>'crowd funding'. The propose a project like this, targeted at business 
>and user, to all pitch in. In fact, quite a few beloved open source 
>projects could benefit, if the idea of crowd funding took hold
>on open source soft. Perhaps one of the foundations deeply involved in 
>the open source movement would get behind the idea?
>
>KDE is very popular, so the concept or something similar might just
>have 
>legs, even if it only funds a series of grad-students or young 
>programmers to maintain good FOSS projects?
>
>AS a side note, I put 32G of ram on my system and still at times it is 
>laggy with little processor load and htop shows little <30% ram usage.
>What tools do you use to track down mem. management issues?
>
>Any specific kernel tweaks?
>
>
>hth,
>James
>
>
>
>hth,
>James

Try iotop

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[james]

On 08/09/2016 07:42 AM, Michael Mol wrote:

On Monday, August 08, 2016 10:45:09 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:

On 08/08/2016 19:20, Michael Mol wrote:

On Monday, August 08, 2016 06:52:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:

On 08/08/2016 17:02, Michael Mol wrote:



snip <<<

KMail is the lost child of KDE for many months now, I reckon this
situation is just going to get worse and worse. I know for myself my
mail problems ceased the day I dumped KMail4 for claws and/or thunderbird


That's really, really sad.

I used Thunderbird for years, but I eventually had to stop when it would,
averaging once a month (though sometimes not for a couple months, sometimes a
couple times a week) explode in memory consumption and drive the entire system
unresponsively into swap.

I've tried claws from time to time due to other annoyances with Thunderbird,
but I kept switching back. Not because I liked Tbird, but (IIRC) because of
stability issues I had with claws.

Even with the bugs it has, Kontact and Akonadi has been the most reliable mail
client I've used in the last year. When it gives me problems, I know why, and
I can address it. (Running a heavily tuned MySQLd instance behind Akonadi, for
example...)

I wish someone would pay me to fix this stuff; I'd be able to spend the time on
it.


Perhaps an experiment. Locate some folks that know about how to promote 
'crowd funding'. The propose a project like this, targeted at business 
and user, to all pitch in. In fact, quite a few beloved open source 
projects could benefit, if the idea of crowd funding took hold
on open source soft. Perhaps one of the foundations deeply involved in 
the open source movement would get behind the idea?


KDE is very popular, so the concept or something similar might just have 
legs, even if it only funds a series of grad-students or young 
programmers to maintain good FOSS projects?


AS a side note, I put 32G of ram on my system and still at times it is 
laggy with little processor load and htop shows little <30% ram usage.

What tools do you use to track down mem. management issues?

Any specific kernel tweaks?


hth,
James



hth,
James

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Michael Mol]

On Monday, August 08, 2016 10:45:09 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 08/08/2016 19:20, Michael Mol wrote:
> > On Monday, August 08, 2016 06:52:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >> On 08/08/2016 17:02, Michael Mol wrote:

[snip]

> > 
> > [nomerge   ] kde-apps/kde-apps-meta-16.04.3
> > 
> > [nomerge   ] kde-apps/kdepim-meta-4.14.11_pre20160211
> > 
> > [ebuild  NS]  kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3 [4.14.3-r1] USE="-debug
> > -handbook" L10N="-ar -bg -bs -ca -ca-valencia -cs -da -de -el -en-GB -eo
> > -es -et -eu -fa -fi -fr -ga -gl -he -hi -hr -hu -ia -id -is -it -ja -kk
> > -km -ko -lt -lv -mr -nb -nds -nl -nn -pa -pl -pt -pt-BR -ro -ru -sk -sl
> > -sr -sv -tr -ug -uk -wa -zh-CN -zh-TW"
> > 
> > [blocks b  ]   kde-apps/kdepim-l10n:4 ("kde-apps/kdepim-l10n:4" is
> > blocking kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3)
> > 
> > [uninstall ]kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-4.14.3-r1
> > 
> > [blocks B  ]  > (" 
> It wants to pull in kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3
> 
> Any reason it refuses  kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-16.04.3 other than it's
> unstable?

Good catch. I thought I had most of kde-apps unmasked for unstable to keep 
with the rolling. Missed that one.

> 
> 
> KMail is the lost child of KDE for many months now, I reckon this
> situation is just going to get worse and worse. I know for myself my
> mail problems ceased the day I dumped KMail4 for claws and/or thunderbird

That's really, really sad.

I used Thunderbird for years, but I eventually had to stop when it would, 
averaging once a month (though sometimes not for a couple months, sometimes a 
couple times a week) explode in memory consumption and drive the entire system 
unresponsively into swap.

I've tried claws from time to time due to other annoyances with Thunderbird, 
but I kept switching back. Not because I liked Tbird, but (IIRC) because of 
stability issues I had with claws.

Even with the bugs it has, Kontact and Akonadi has been the most reliable mail 
client I've used in the last year. When it gives me problems, I know why, and 
I can address it. (Running a heavily tuned MySQLd instance behind Akonadi, for 
example...)

I wish someone would pay me to fix this stuff; I'd be able to spend the time on 
it.

-- 
:wq

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 10:50:21 +0200
Alan McKinnon  wrote:

> On 09/08/2016 09:52, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > On Monday 08 Aug 2016 22:45:09 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >   
> >> KMail is the lost child of KDE for many months now, I reckon this
> >> situation is just going to get worse and worse. I know for myself my
> >> mail problems ceased the day I dumped KMail4 for claws and/or
> >> thunderbird  
> > 
> > Not wishing to hijack the thread, but have you found a way to convert
> > KMail archives to Claws format? Google shows me some dodgy-looking
> > tricks, but is there a proper way?
> >   
> 
> 
> install a local IMAP server and move your mails to it
> 

Interesting idea. But the script Neil mentioned worked quickly, easily and
apparently flawlessly. I'm now writing this in Claws.

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Alan McKinnon]

On 09/08/2016 09:52, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Monday 08 Aug 2016 22:45:09 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
>> KMail is the lost child of KDE for many months now, I reckon this
>> situation is just going to get worse and worse. I know for myself my
>> mail problems ceased the day I dumped KMail4 for claws and/or thunderbird
> 
> Not wishing to hijack the thread, but have you found a way to convert KMail 
> archives to Claws format? Google shows me some dodgy-looking tricks, but is 
> there a proper way?
> 


install a local IMAP server and move your mails to it

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 09 Aug 2016 09:03:11 Neil Bothwick wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Aug 2016 08:52:29 +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > Not wishing to hijack the thread, but have you found a way to convert
> > KMail archives to Claws format? Google shows me some dodgy-looking
> > tricks, but is there a proper way?
> 
> There's a conversion script on the Claws web site:
> 
> http://www.claws-mail.org/tools.php?section=downloads

Thanks Neil. I'll definitely give that a go.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 09 Aug 2016 08:52:29 +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote:

> Not wishing to hijack the thread, but have you found a way to convert
> KMail archives to Claws format? Google shows me some dodgy-looking
> tricks, but is there a proper way?

There's a conversion script on the Claws web site:

http://www.claws-mail.org/tools.php?section=downloads


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Top Oxymorons Number 10: Computer security


pgphbS3m2IDcg.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Peter Humphrey]

On Monday 08 Aug 2016 22:45:09 Alan McKinnon wrote:

> KMail is the lost child of KDE for many months now, I reckon this
> situation is just going to get worse and worse. I know for myself my
> mail problems ceased the day I dumped KMail4 for claws and/or thunderbird

Not wishing to hijack the thread, but have you found a way to convert KMail 
archives to Claws format? Google shows me some dodgy-looking tricks, but is 
there a proper way?

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Alan McKinnon]

On 08/08/2016 19:20, Michael Mol wrote:
>  
> 
>  
> 
> On Monday, August 08, 2016 06:52:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
>> On 08/08/2016 17:02, Michael Mol wrote:
> 
>> > Been getting this in my email every morning for several days now. Rather
> 
>> > expected it to clear by now, but since it hasn't, and googling doesn't
> 
>> > seem to indicate anyone has noted the issue...
> 
>> >
> 
>> > * Error: The above package list contains packages which cannot be
> 
>> > * installed at the same time on the same system.
> 
>> >
> 
>> > (kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo, installed) pulled in by
> 
>> >
> 
>> > >=kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3 required by (kde-apps/kde4-
> 
>> >
> 
>> > l10n-16.04.3:4/4::gentoo, installed)
> 
>> >
> 
>> > >=kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3 required by (kde-apps/kde-apps-
> 
>> >
> 
>> > meta-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo, installed)
> 
>> >
> 
>> > (kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge)
> 
>> >
> 
>> > pulled in by
> 
>> >
> 
>> > >=kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-4.14.3 required by (kde-apps/kdepim-
> 
>> >
> 
>> > meta-4.14.11_pre20160211:4/4::gentoo, installed)
> 
>> >
> 
>> >
> 
>> > Now, it's not clear, if I'd like to continue using both KMail and non-
> 
>> > deprecated kde-apps, what to do here. Just hope that kdepim gets updated
> 
>> > to
> 
>> > qt5 soon? I'd pitch in, but I don't have the time.
> 
>>
> 
>> please post the portion of the output/mail that shows the blockers.
> 
>  
> 
> [nomerge   ] kde-apps/kde-apps-meta-16.04.3 
> 
> [nomerge   ] kde-apps/kdepim-meta-4.14.11_pre20160211 
> 
> [ebuild  NS]  kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3 [4.14.3-r1] USE="-debug
> -handbook" L10N="-ar -bg -bs -ca -ca-valencia -cs -da -de -el -en-GB -eo
> -es -et -eu -fa -fi -fr -ga -gl -he -hi -hr -hu -ia -id -is -it -ja -kk
> -km -ko -lt -lv -mr -nb -nds -nl -nn -pa -pl -pt -pt-BR -ro -ru -sk -sl
> -sr -sv -tr -ug -uk -wa -zh-CN -zh-TW" 
> 
> [blocks b  ]   kde-apps/kdepim-l10n:4 ("kde-apps/kdepim-l10n:4" is
> blocking kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3)
> 
> [uninstall ]kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-4.14.3-r1 
> 
> [blocks B  ]  (" 
>  
> 
> -- 
> 
> :wq
> 

It wants to pull in kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3

Any reason it refuses  kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-16.04.3 other than it's
unstable?


KMail is the lost child of KDE for many months now, I reckon this
situation is just going to get worse and worse. I know for myself my
mail problems ceased the day I dumped KMail4 for claws and/or thunderbird


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Michael Mol]

On Monday, August 08, 2016 06:52:15 PM Alan McKinnon wrote:
> On 08/08/2016 17:02, Michael Mol wrote:
> > Been getting this in my email every morning for several days now. Rather
> > expected it to clear by now, but since it hasn't, and googling doesn't
> > seem to indicate anyone has noted the issue...
> >
> >  * Error: The above package list contains packages which cannot be
> >  * installed at the same time on the same system.
> >
> >   (kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo, installed) pulled in by
> >
> > >=kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3 required by (kde-apps/kde4-
> >
> > l10n-16.04.3:4/4::gentoo, installed)
> >
> > >=kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3 required by (kde-apps/kde-apps-
> >
> > meta-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo, installed)
> >
> >   (kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge)
> >
> > pulled in by
> >
> > >=kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-4.14.3 required by (kde-apps/kdepim-
> >
> > meta-4.14.11_pre20160211:4/4::gentoo, installed)
> >
> >
> > Now, it's not clear, if I'd like to continue using both KMail and non-
> > deprecated kde-apps, what to do here. Just hope that kdepim gets updated
> > to
> > qt5 soon? I'd pitch in, but I don't have the time.
>
> please post the portion of the output/mail that shows the blockers.

[nomerge   ] kde-apps/kde-apps-meta-16.04.3
[nomerge   ] kde-apps/kdepim-meta-4.14.11_pre20160211
[ebuild  NS]  kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3 [4.14.3-r1] USE="-debug 
-handbook"
L10N="-ar -bg -bs -ca -ca-valencia -cs -da -de -el -en-GB -eo -es -et -eu -fa 
-fi -fr -ga -gl -
he -hi -hr -hu -ia -id -is -it -ja -kk -km -ko -lt -lv -mr -nb -nds -nl -nn -pa 
-pl -pt -pt-BR -ro -ru
-sk -sl -sr -sv -tr -ug -uk -wa -zh-CN -zh-TW"
[blocks b  ]   kde-apps/kdepim-l10n:4 ("kde-apps/kdepim-l10n:4" is blocking 
kde-
apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3)
[uninstall ]kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-4.14.3-r1
[blocks B  ] 

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Re: [gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Alan McKinnon]

On 08/08/2016 17:02, Michael Mol wrote:
> Been getting this in my email every morning for several days now. Rather 
> expected it to clear by now, but since it hasn't, and googling doesn't seem 
> to 
> indicate anyone has noted the issue...
> 
>  * Error: The above package list contains packages which cannot be
>  * installed at the same time on the same system.
> 
>   (kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo, installed) pulled in by
> >=kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3 required by (kde-apps/kde4-
> l10n-16.04.3:4/4::gentoo, installed)
> >=kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3 required by (kde-apps/kde-apps-
> meta-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo, installed)
> 
>   (kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) 
> pulled in by
> >=kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-4.14.3 required by (kde-apps/kdepim-
> meta-4.14.11_pre20160211:4/4::gentoo, installed)
> 
> 
> Now, it's not clear, if I'd like to continue using both KMail and non-
> deprecated kde-apps, what to do here. Just hope that kdepim gets updated to 
> qt5 soon? I'd pitch in, but I don't have the time.
> 


please post the portion of the output/mail that shows the blockers.

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

[gentoo-user] kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo conflicting with kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo

[Michael Mol]

Been getting this in my email every morning for several days now. Rather 
expected it to clear by now, but since it hasn't, and googling doesn't seem to 
indicate anyone has noted the issue...

 * Error: The above package list contains packages which cannot be
 * installed at the same time on the same system.

  (kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo, installed) pulled in by
>=kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3 required by (kde-apps/kde4-
l10n-16.04.3:4/4::gentoo, installed)
>=kde-apps/kde-l10n-16.04.3 required by (kde-apps/kde-apps-
meta-16.04.3:5/5::gentoo, installed)

  (kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-15.12.3:5/5::gentoo, ebuild scheduled for merge) 
pulled in by
>=kde-apps/kdepim-l10n-4.14.3 required by (kde-apps/kdepim-
meta-4.14.11_pre20160211:4/4::gentoo, installed)


Now, it's not clear, if I'd like to continue using both KMail and non-
deprecated kde-apps, what to do here. Just hope that kdepim gets updated to 
qt5 soon? I'd pitch in, but I don't have the time.

-- 
:wq

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