Re: [gentoo-user] which keymap and keyboard setup
Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de writes: Hello, Lee. On Fri, Jun 05, 2015 at 11:33:47PM +0200, lee wrote: Hi, which keymap are we supposed to use for a keyboard that has 122 keys? I think you might have to roll your own. As a warning, this can't be done in a single hour. It seems so --- I looked at the provided keymaps and found that they are an awful mess of including many maps into another to somehow finally get a desired result. The problem I currently have is that the function keys F12--F24 (and some others) send two key presses rather than their own keycodes. So first I need to get the keyboard itself out of the mode it's in. And I found that the keyboard works fine when going into the BIOS and doesn't work at all when booting, already at the stage when grub shows it's menu. When that happens, I need to unplug the keyboard, and it works when I plug it back in. When I don't enter the BIOS before booting, the keyboard works fine. Other than that, I switched to the US layout, and what the keys do now basically matches their labels. As a matter of interest, what are all the extra keys for? What legend is embossed upon them, and where are they, physically, relative to the qwerty part of the keyboard? There's a bunch of keys on the left side of the keyboard, in two rows: |--+---| | SysRq| ScrLk | | Esc | | | Attr | | |--+---| | Print| Pause | | Screen | Clear | | SysRq| Break | |--+---| | Print| Help | |--+---| | Record | Play | |--+---| | [window] | Menu | |--+---| There are 24 function keys, and the layout of the cursor keys is like a plus sign because there's a Home key in the middle of the arrows. The keys above that are kinda weird because there's a backspace and what looks like an Enter key, with Drop/Insert/Zoom and Delete in the middle and PgUp and PgDown on the left. The end key is part of the keypad. That will take a while to get used to. I like having extra keys so I can put something onto them, like switching to particular windows, starting applications and emacs-functions I frequently use. I'm using a lot of virtual desktops, all the windows usually fullscreen, so it's much easier and faster to press, for example, F24 to switch to or between emacs frames than it is to go through the window list or to find an empty desktop to look at the pager to figure out where the window is I want to switch to. Just use something like: DestroyFunc WarpToEmacs AddToFunc WarpToEmacs + I Next (Emacs) WarpToWindow 50 50 and bind that to a key. Since F13--F24 are usually not used by anything, they'd be perfect for things like this. That these stupid Windoze-keys don't get in the way of the Ctrl and Alt keys is a big advantage --- I hate those, yet now I can actually make use of them because they are located conveniently. Other than that, Unicomp keyboards are hard to get here as you need to import them, which involves more or less unforeseeable costs (shipping and taxes). Fortunately, there was a good offer on ebay, and they not only handle the international shipping at bearable rates and customs but even tell you exactly what it will cost. So you pay that and get it shipped to your door without any further ado, just like anything else you order online. Without that, I would have to pay as much or even more for shipping alone as I pay for the keyboard itself. My comments from this point on are about the console keyboard. I don't know much about X keyboards, though I do have a little utility, xfce4-xkb-plugin, in my XFCE which swaps from British to German layout at the click of a mouse. My console keyboard is an extensively enhanced version of a British layout, with the seven German letters on AltGra/o/u/s, and many extra key combinations that are needed in Emacs, together with combinations for Ctrlarrow-keys, etc. That sounds as if you could use a keyboard that has more keys :) With some, if not most, keyboards that feature an US layout, you simply do not have the keys for some of the letters needed for German. And without having the physical keys, you can adjust your layout all you want, it will still suck :) So I made sure to get a keyboard that does have these keys. Of course, they have different labels, but I don't mind. And I have a Model M at hand, so I guess I could even switch out the keycaps to get the correct labels if I wanted to. And which keyboard type are we supposed to specify? There's pc_102, pc_105 and whatnot; is there such a thing as pc_122, too? I doubt it. Probably, you'll be just fine with pc_105. Try it! (Where is this set, by the way? I set mine to pc_105, but forgotton where I did it). It's in a (snippet) of xorg.conf, see http://www.x.org/archive/X11R7.5/doc/input/XKB-Config.html You can also switch layouts by pressing a key combination. So far, I plugged the keyboard in (it's USB) and
Re: [gentoo-user] which keymap and keyboard setup
On 07/06/2015 15:00, lee wrote: Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de writes: Hello, Peter On Sat, Jun 06, 2015 at 02:25:17PM +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote: On Saturday 06 June 2015 11:22:45 Alan Mackenzie wrote: :-) I have a Filco mechanical keyboard, which works well. Does your new keyboard need more desk space than a standard one? That would be a negative feature for me. I wonder how much better these are than my 105-key Cherry with its mechanical key switches. It isn't quiet, but it doesn't need to be since I'm the only one here. I deliberately went for a proper keyboard rather than those nasty rubber-sheet jobs. My Filco has Cherry keys in it. I seem to remember from researching it a few years back, Cherry keys come in several weights of action, and some of them have an audible click, some don't. An audible click would drive me crazy. Buckling springs buckle and rattle, they don't click --- I do like that sound :) My trusty Model M, using which this very mail was typed, still buckles and rattles after god-only-knows how many years use[1]. I can use it as a stand-in cricket bat, or a weapon to fend off thieves in the night, and it will still buckle, rattle and type. I call that a quality keyboard. [1] And every legend on the keys is still perfect! I wonder if the legends are moulded all the way through. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] which keymap and keyboard setup
Alan Mackenzie a...@muc.de writes: Hello, Peter On Sat, Jun 06, 2015 at 02:25:17PM +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote: On Saturday 06 June 2015 11:22:45 Alan Mackenzie wrote: :-) I have a Filco mechanical keyboard, which works well. Does your new keyboard need more desk space than a standard one? That would be a negative feature for me. I wonder how much better these are than my 105-key Cherry with its mechanical key switches. It isn't quiet, but it doesn't need to be since I'm the only one here. I deliberately went for a proper keyboard rather than those nasty rubber-sheet jobs. My Filco has Cherry keys in it. I seem to remember from researching it a few years back, Cherry keys come in several weights of action, and some of them have an audible click, some don't. An audible click would drive me crazy. Buckling springs buckle and rattle, they don't click --- I do like that sound :) MX blues don't klick, so I guess what sound you get depends on the rest of the keyboard. The one I have sounds like plastic, which it is, and I don't like that sound. If they were clicking, that probably would only make it worse ... -- Again we must be afraid of speaking of daemons for fear that daemons might swallow us. Finally, this fear has become reasonable.
Re: [gentoo-user] which keymap and keyboard setup
Peter Humphrey pe...@prh.myzen.co.uk writes: On Saturday 06 June 2015 11:22:45 Alan Mackenzie wrote: On Fri, Jun 05, 2015 at 11:33:47PM +0200, lee wrote: BTW, this keyboard is awesome. It's just as if you had a Model M, but still new, and there isn't anything better available new. I've been using those for about 20 years now and wanted a new one since quite a while, now finally managed to get a Unicomp ... Get one if you can; live is too short for bad keyboards. : :-) I have a Filco mechanical keyboard, which works well. Does your new keyboard need more desk space than a standard one? That would be a negative feature for me. I wonder how much better these are than my 105-key Cherry with its mechanical key switches. It isn't quiet, but it doesn't need to be since I'm the only one here. I deliberately went for a proper keyboard rather than those nasty rubber-sheet jobs. They are better than the rubber junk. They are worlds away from buckling springs. I have a keyboard here with MX blue switches. They are supposed to give tactile feedback, yet all they do is quietly click, and there isn't really any such feedback. They are too easy to press, too, and they don't feel as sturdy but rather wobbly. I cannot type at all on that keyboard because I constantly mistype. The keys must be arranged somehow subtly different, so I do not blame the switches for that. I guess it's too small. With buckling springs, I just know exactly whether I pressed a key or not. The MX switches leave me to guessing. It all comes down to personal preference and what works for one. If you think about replacing a Model M or a Unicomp that has buckling springs with a keyboard has MX switches, think twice about it. Best get one first and try it out for a couple days to see if you like it. For me, there is no way that I could replace a buckling spring keyboard with an MX one. It's simply not a replacement, and, of course, not intended to be one. I could probably use an MX keyboard just fine, provided that the keys are decently arranged unlike on the one I have. But I have no reason to other than that buckling spring keyboards are hard to come by, and I don't want to. And where is a decent keyboard for an acceptable price (which AFAIK excludes Filco) that has MX switches and isn't designed for gamers so that all keys work? I might have bought one from Corsair (Aluminium is sure nice), and I didn't because not all keys will work. -- Again we must be afraid of speaking of daemons for fear that daemons might swallow us. Finally, this fear has become reasonable.
Re: [gentoo-user] which keymap and keyboard setup
On Saturday 06 June 2015 11:22:45 Alan Mackenzie wrote: On Fri, Jun 05, 2015 at 11:33:47PM +0200, lee wrote: BTW, this keyboard is awesome. It's just as if you had a Model M, but still new, and there isn't anything better available new. I've been using those for about 20 years now and wanted a new one since quite a while, now finally managed to get a Unicomp ... Get one if you can; live is too short for bad keyboards. : :-) I have a Filco mechanical keyboard, which works well. Does your new keyboard need more desk space than a standard one? That would be a negative feature for me. I wonder how much better these are than my 105-key Cherry with its mechanical key switches. It isn't quiet, but it doesn't need to be since I'm the only one here. I deliberately went for a proper keyboard rather than those nasty rubber-sheet jobs. -- Rgds Peter
Re: [gentoo-user] which keymap and keyboard setup
Hello, Lee. On Fri, Jun 05, 2015 at 11:33:47PM +0200, lee wrote: Hi, which keymap are we supposed to use for a keyboard that has 122 keys? I think you might have to roll your own. As a warning, this can't be done in a single hour. As a matter of interest, what are all the extra keys for? What legend is embossed upon them, and where are they, physically, relative to the qwerty part of the keyboard? My comments from this point on are about the console keyboard. I don't know much about X keyboards, though I do have a little utility, xfce4-xkb-plugin, in my XFCE which swaps from British to German layout at the click of a mouse. My console keyboard is an extensively enhanced version of a British layout, with the seven German letters on AltGra/o/u/s, and many extra key combinations that are needed in Emacs, together with combinations for Ctrlarrow-keys, etc. And which keyboard type are we supposed to specify? There's pc_102, pc_105 and whatnot; is there such a thing as pc_122, too? I doubt it. Probably, you'll be just fine with pc_105. Try it! (Where is this set, by the way? I set mine to pc_105, but forgotton where I did it). So far, I plugged the keyboard in (it's USB) and it has a layout I can expect (which is kinda amazing), so I'm typing on it now. What I want is a keyboard configuration that corresponds to the labels on the keys (which is an US layout) as a starting point, and a way to switch between the US layout and a layout adapted to German. Most of what I type is in English, and the US layout is much better suited for programming, so for the few cases I do need the extra keys required for German, I want to be able to switch layouts by pressing a key. That goes for both console and X11 --- my experience is that you first have to get the keyboard set up correctly for the console before you have a chance to get it to fully work with X11. I don't know of any way of switching the console keyboard as easily as you probably want. To switch layouts you need loadkeys (a utility program very close to the kernel). As I said, my workaround here is to put the German letters on AltGr combinations. It surprised me just how seldomly ä,ö,ü,ß are actually used in German text. You could put the string loadkeys /home/lee/kbd-d.map.gzCR (and a similar one for kbd-e.map.gz) on some difficult-to-type-accidentally key combination, with which you'd be able to change layouts from a bash command line. Just beware that the the same key layout is used by all the virtual terminals - there's no way of setting a key layout for just one VT. I would recommend you to start by copying a standard keyboard layout from /usr/share/keymaps/... (or dumping your current one with dumpkeys), then enhancing it. Read the man pages for loadkeys, dumpkeys, keymaps, etc. They are in package sys-apps/kbd. To find out what the keycodes are for obscure keys, use showkey. If you'd like a copy of my keyboard layout to help you on your way, just drop me a personal email. The keyboard shows up as: Unicomp Inc. Surf Ruffian USB 122 Keyboard v 2.50. Xev shows that the function keys F13--F24 yield the same scan codes as F1--F12. I still have a 105 key PS/2 keyboard plugged in, and nothing is prepared for the 122 key keyboard, so that might limit what scan codes are being seen. BTW, this keyboard is awesome. It's just as if you had a Model M, but still new, and there isn't anything better available new. I've been using those for about 20 years now and wanted a new one since quite a while, now finally managed to get a Unicomp ... Get one if you can; live is too short for bad keyboards. :-) I have a Filco mechanical keyboard, which works well. Does your new keyboard need more desk space than a standard one? That would be a negative feature for me. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
Re: [gentoo-user] which keymap and keyboard setup
Hello, Peter On Sat, Jun 06, 2015 at 02:25:17PM +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote: On Saturday 06 June 2015 11:22:45 Alan Mackenzie wrote: :-) I have a Filco mechanical keyboard, which works well. Does your new keyboard need more desk space than a standard one? That would be a negative feature for me. I wonder how much better these are than my 105-key Cherry with its mechanical key switches. It isn't quiet, but it doesn't need to be since I'm the only one here. I deliberately went for a proper keyboard rather than those nasty rubber-sheet jobs. My Filco has Cherry keys in it. I seem to remember from researching it a few years back, Cherry keys come in several weights of action, and some of them have an audible click, some don't. An audible click would drive me crazy. -- Rgds Peter -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
Re: [gentoo-user] which keymap and keyboard setup
On Saturday 06 June 2015 14:57:15 Alan Mackenzie wrote: Hello, Peter On Sat, Jun 06, 2015 at 02:25:17PM +0100, Peter Humphrey wrote: On Saturday 06 June 2015 11:22:45 Alan Mackenzie wrote: :-) I have a Filco mechanical keyboard, which works well. Does your :new keyboard need more desk space than a standard one? That would be a negative feature for me. I wonder how much better these are than my 105-key Cherry with its mechanical key switches. It isn't quiet, but it doesn't need to be since I'm the only one here. I deliberately went for a proper keyboard rather than those nasty rubber-sheet jobs. My Filco has Cherry keys in it. I seem to remember from researching it a few years back, Cherry keys come in several weights of action, and some of them have an audible click, some don't. An audible click would drive me crazy. Hmm. I wonder whether I'm prone to it too... -- Rgds Peter
[gentoo-user] which keymap and keyboard setup
Hi, which keymap are we supposed to use for a keyboard that has 122 keys? And which keyboard type are we supposed to specify? There's pc_102, pc_105 and whatnot; is there such a thing as pc_122, too? So far, I plugged the keyboard in (it's USB) and it has a layout I can expect (which is kinda amazing), so I'm typing on it now. What I want is a keyboard configuration that corresponds to the labels on the keys (which is an US layout) as a starting point, and a way to switch between the US layout and a layout adapted to German. Most of what I type is in English, and the US layout is much better suited for programming, so for the few cases I do need the extra keys required for German, I want to be able to switch layouts by pressing a key. That goes for both console and X11 --- my experience is that you first have to get the keyboard set up correctly for the console before you have a chance to get it to fully work with X11. The keyboard shows up as: Unicomp Inc. Surf Ruffian USB 122 Keyboard v 2.50. Xev shows that the function keys F13--F24 yield the same scan codes as F1--F12. I still have a 105 key PS/2 keyboard plugged in, and nothing is prepared for the 122 key keyboard, so that might limit what scan codes are being seen. BTW, this keyboard is awesome. It's just as if you had a Model M, but still new, and there isn't anything better available new. I've been using those for about 20 years now and wanted a new one since quite a while, now finally managed to get a Unicomp ... Get one if you can; live is too short for bad keyboards. -- Again we must be afraid of speaking of daemons for fear that daemons might swallow us. Finally, this fear has become reasonable.
