Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 28.07.2013 10:22, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: William Hubbs closed bug #409385[1] as fixed, introducing virtual/service-manager and adding it to the @system set, and dropping OpenRC from baselayout's post dependencies. Therefore, as of today, anyone can have a Gentoo machine with only systemd, with no OpenRC installed. Since that was the raison d'être of the gentoo-systemd-only overlay[2], I'm deprecating it soon. If you install dracut you will also pull sysvinit (it's needed for killall5, IIRC), Seems like the bin/pidof - ../sbin/killall5 dependency is removed in git: https://git.kernel.org/cgit/boot/dracut/dracut.git/commit/?id=45ef8eb7234dbad60e39ce1e7791c8e9ad7d920b and installing baselayout (instead of systemd-baselayout) will make orphans of some systemd configuration files (like /etc/vconsole.conf and /etc/machine-info); but I consider those only minor problems, and I would strongly recommend to *anyone* using my gentoo-systemd-only overlay to drop it and use the official mechanism in the tree to install only systemd, replacing completely OpenRC. Also, without OpenRC we don't have /etc/init.d/functions.sh , but you can use the alternatives provided in my overlay or in bug #373219[3]. I'm pretty sure someone will close that bug pretty soon. Basically, systemd is now a first class citizen in Gentoo (on par with OpenRC), and therefore there is no need at all for using my overlay. Thanks to all the people who helped me with pull requests and comments; the deprecation of the overlay is great news, since now it's officially possible in Gentoo to ditch OpenRC and switch completely to systemd. Regards. [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=409385 [2] https://github.com/canek-pelaez/gentoo-systemd-only [3] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=373219
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 01/08/2013 00:25, Stroller wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 22:43, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Are we OK on this for now, or is there more to discuss? Yes, that's great. I'm glad we can be open and honest when we've got these kinds of problems. On other occasions I've worried that you might have driven away someone who was seeking help here, but I've felt like it wasn't my place to intervene. The only advice I can perhaps give you is to read the question twice and hesitate before replying. If you wait an hour before hitting reply, maybe you'll be less likely to do so with your initial certainty. You'll notice I post significantly less in the last 18 months or so. Most of that is when I did think twice, some still slips through though. Oh well. Shit happens I suppose I get to just deal with it :-) -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 02:00:23AM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:24 AM, Daniel Campbell li...@sporkbox.us wrote: You need an OpenRC use flag to install OpenRC init scripts? That's simply a lie. An apology to Daniel might be in order. I start my USE flag with -*. During a recent install, I found out the hard way that eudev (and udev) do not install their init scripts without the openrc flag. As you can see from the ebuild fragments below, they require the openrc flag to pull in sys-fs/udev-init-scripts From sys-fs/udev/udev-197-r8.ebuild === PDEPEND==virtual/udev-197-r1 hwdb? ( =sys-apps/hwids-20130114[udev] ) openrc? ( =sys-fs/udev-init-scripts-19-r1 ) From sys-fs/eudev/eudev-1_beta4-r1.ebuild = PDEPEND==virtual/udev-180 openrc? ( =sys-fs/udev-init-scripts-18 ) -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 06:11:02PM +0530, Yohan Pereira wrote On 31/07/13 at 08:30am, Tanstaafl wrote: So, how should this be used to 'opt out of systemd completely'? from main make.conf Use this variable if you want to selectively prevent certain files from being copied into your file system tree. .. You can use it to prevent ebuilds from installing unit files or open-rc scripts from doing so (based on what you want to opt-out of). From the man page... INSTALL_MASK = [space delimited list of file names] I do not want to input umpteen files names, or even extensions. The man page says nothing about masking out directories. Here's what I had on my system a few minutes ago before executing rm -rf /usr/lib/systemd/ [i660][waltdnes][/usr/lib] ll -ogR /usr/lib/systemd /usr/lib/systemd: total 56 drwxr-xr-x 3 4096 May 12 20:42 . drwxr-xr-x 53 45056 Jul 28 03:18 .. drwxr-xr-x 4 4096 Jun 14 02:45 system /usr/lib/systemd/system: total 44 drwxr-xr-x 4 4096 Jun 14 02:45 . drwxr-xr-x 3 4096 May 12 20:42 .. -rw-r--r-- 1 155 Jun 14 02:45 acpid.service -rw-r--r-- 1 119 Jun 14 02:45 acpid.socket -rw-r--r-- 1 220 Jun 14 02:45 alsa-restore.service -rw-r--r-- 1 168 Jun 14 02:45 alsa-store.service drwxr-xr-x 2 4096 Jun 14 02:45 basic.target.wants drwxr-xr-x 2 4096 Jun 14 02:45 shutdown.target.wants -rw-r--r-- 1 242 May 12 19:27 sshd.service -rw-r--r-- 1 136 May 12 19:27 sshd.socket -rw-r--r-- 1 176 May 12 19:27 sshd@.service /usr/lib/systemd/system/basic.target.wants: total 8 drwxr-xr-x 2 4096 Jun 14 02:45 . drwxr-xr-x 4 4096 Jun 14 02:45 .. lrwxrwxrwx 1 23 Jun 14 02:45 alsa-restore.service - ../alsa-restore.service /usr/lib/systemd/system/shutdown.target.wants: total 8 drwxr-xr-x 2 4096 Jun 14 02:45 . drwxr-xr-x 4 4096 Jun 14 02:45 .. lrwxrwxrwx 1 21 Jun 14 02:45 alsa-store.service - ../alsa-store.service Maybe I should simply make a wrapper script that throws in... rm -rf /usr/lib/systemd/ at the end of an emerge. -- Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org I don't run desktop environments; I run useful applications
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Thu, 1 Aug 2013 06:24:17 -0400, Walter Dnes wrote: You can use it to prevent ebuilds from installing unit files or open-rc scripts from doing so (based on what you want to opt-out of). From the man page... INSTALL_MASK = [space delimited list of file names] I do not want to input umpteen files names, or even extensions. The man page says nothing about masking out directories. Everything is a file, nor does the man page say anything about not using it to mask out directories. Bearing in mind that this is the means chosen by the devs, it is reasonable to assume that it is practicable. Maybe I should simply make a wrapper script that throws in... rm -rf /usr/lib/systemd/ at the end of an emerge. Or you could simply try INSTALL_MASK=/usr/lib/systemd/ in make.conf. It's not like your computer is going to explode if it fails to mask the service files. -- Neil Bothwick Women live longer than men because they have so many clothes that they wouldn't be caught dead in. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 4:43 AM, Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 02:00:23AM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:24 AM, Daniel Campbell li...@sporkbox.us wrote: You need an OpenRC use flag to install OpenRC init scripts? That's simply a lie. An apology to Daniel might be in order. I start my USE flag with -*. During a recent install, I found out the hard way that eudev (and udev) do not install their init scripts without the openrc flag. As you can see from the ebuild fragments below, they require the openrc flag to pull in sys-fs/udev-init-scripts From sys-fs/udev/udev-197-r8.ebuild === PDEPEND==virtual/udev-197-r1 hwdb? ( =sys-apps/hwids-20130114[udev] ) openrc? ( =sys-fs/udev-init-scripts-19-r1 ) From sys-fs/eudev/eudev-1_beta4-r1.ebuild = PDEPEND==virtual/udev-180 openrc? ( =sys-fs/udev-init-scripts-18 ) udev/eudev are special cases: the first is systemd with systemd removed at make install time; the second is a fork of systemd with systemd exorcised. The systemd package also uses the openrc USE flag to install OpenRC init scripts; I hope you agree that it is also an special case (systemd, which is a whole init system, provides init scripts for another init system). The package sys-apps/kmod also uses the openrc USE flag to install an init script, which Create[s] [a] list of required static device nodes for the current kernel. I have no idea why this is necessary, but kmod is a dependency of systemd, and the developers of both projects collaborate a lot between them. No other package in the tree uses an openrc USE flag (or at least they don't appear in /usr/portage/profiles/use.local.desc), except for plymouth, and that it's to install a plugin for OpenRC, not to install its OpenRC scripts. So no package in the tree uses an openrc USE flag to install init scripts, except for one somewhat related to systemd, two forks and/or special handling of systemd, and systemd itself. In *ALL* the other packages in the tree, the OpenRC init scripts are installed unconditionally, as the systemd unit files are. And that's how it should be. Lastly, the ebuilds for udev/eudev should work out of the box in a sane configuration. You have been told several times, both by users and developers, that USE=-* is not really supported; you broke your system by using it, you get to keep the pieces. Gentoo is about choice (or so I keep hearing); that doesn't mean it shouldn't strive to have sane defaults that keep the majority happy: http://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2013/07/23/keeping-the-majority-happy/ Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 4:43 AM, Walter Dnes waltd...@waltdnes.org wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 02:00:23AM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:24 AM, Daniel Campbell li...@sporkbox.us wrote: You need an OpenRC use flag to install OpenRC init scripts? That's simply a lie. An apology to Daniel might be in order. I start my USE flag with -*. During a recent install, I found out the hard way that eudev (and udev) do not install their init scripts without the openrc flag. As you can see from the ebuild fragments below, they require the openrc flag to pull in sys-fs/udev-init-scripts From sys-fs/udev/udev-197-r8.ebuild === PDEPEND==virtual/udev-197-r1 hwdb? ( =sys-apps/hwids-20130114[udev] ) openrc? ( =sys-fs/udev-init-scripts-19-r1 ) From sys-fs/eudev/eudev-1_beta4-r1.ebuild = PDEPEND==virtual/udev-180 openrc? ( =sys-fs/udev-init-scripts-18 ) udev/eudev are special cases: the first is systemd with systemd removed at make install time; the second is a fork of systemd with systemd exorcised. The systemd package also uses the openrc USE flag to install OpenRC init scripts; I hope you agree that it is also an special case (systemd, which is a whole init system, provides init scripts for another init system). The package sys-apps/kmod also uses the openrc USE flag to install an init script, which Create[s] [a] list of required static device nodes for the current kernel. I have no idea why this is necessary, but kmod is a dependency of systemd, and the developers of both projects collaborate a lot between them. No other package in the tree uses an openrc USE flag (or at least they don't appear in /usr/portage/profiles/use.local.desc), except for plymouth, and that it's to install a plugin for OpenRC, not to install its OpenRC scripts. So no package in the tree uses an openrc USE flag to install init scripts, except for one somewhat related to systemd, two forks and/or special handling of systemd, and systemd itself. In *ALL* the other packages in the tree, the OpenRC init scripts are installed unconditionally, as the systemd unit files are. And that's how it should be. Lastly, the ebuilds for udev/eudev should work out of the box in a sane configuration. You have been told several times, both by users and developers, that USE=-* is not really supported; you broke your system by using it, you get to keep the pieces. Gentoo is about choice (or so I keep hearing); that doesn't mean it shouldn't strive to have sane defaults that keep the majority happy: http://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2013/07/23/keeping-the-majority-happy/ So, I hope the package maintainers will create or install systemd units and init.d files so we can have the choice and not spend tons of time maintaining the system -- it gets to the point of being rediculous after a while. Systemd sounds nice, but its frustrating because of this. -- Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: How do you spend it? John Covici cov...@ccs.covici.com
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 07/30/2013 05:40 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: There is going to be resistance. Two months ago there was a huge thread in gentoo-dev, because a package maintaner complained that his co-maintainer added a systemd unit to the package: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/85792 In the end, the maintainer rage-quit: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/2551 However, this is the extreme behaviour: most developers (and rational people) agree to adding systemd unit files to all packages, and we have much better coverage now that some months ago. If users cooperate opening bugs adding systemd unit files (after testing them in their machines), the coverage is going to grow even faster. Regards. On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, cov...@ccs.covici.com wrote: Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:53 PM, cov...@ccs.covici.com wrote: Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 28 July 2013 03:22:02 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Therefore, as of today, anyone can have a Gentoo machine with only systemd, with no OpenRC installed. Really? Bug 373219 is still open. Sorry, I missed your explanation at the end about that one. Ok, thanks for what you've done :) Mmmh, and I missed this last reply of you. Anyway, dealing with /etc/init.d/functions.sh is basically trivial. But still, we have lots of packages with no systemd units -- shouldn't they all have a systemd use flag and units to go with it -- basically anything which has something in /etc/init.d . I was looking for a sendmail unit and could find nothing, for one example. Yeah, we are not even near 100% coverage. However, one of the many advantages of systemd is that a service unit from a distribution usually works as-is or with minimal changes in any other. For many basic unit files, you can go to https://github.com/vonSchlotzkow/systemd-gentoo-units It has a unit file for postfix, for example. If the one you are looking for is not there, you can search in other distributions. If you download the RPM from http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/4/idpl/21317874/dir/fedora_19/com/sendmail-8.14.7-1.fc19.i686.rpm.html, and extract the files with rpm2tarbz2, then you can get the sendmail.service file. It will probably need some changes to work with Gentoo, but it should not be difficult. When is working, you can send your unit to the package maintainer in Gentoo, and at some point it could be included in the package (like the OpenRC init script). That's how we will get 100% coverage, eventually. OK, I will check those -- thanks. I hope package maintainers now start putting those service units in, now that systemd is required by gnome. -- Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: How do you spend it? John Covici cov...@ccs.covici.com What's irrational about that guy's reasons for being against the systemd unit files? I remember that thread, and he made some decent technical points. Unfortunately, the council rejected a systemd USE flag, so the best route was shot in the head before it had a chance. Yet OpenRC needs a USE flag to enable it... rather fishy.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:24 AM, Daniel Campbell li...@sporkbox.us wrote: On 07/30/2013 05:40 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: There is going to be resistance. Two months ago there was a huge thread in gentoo-dev, because a package maintaner complained that his co-maintainer added a systemd unit to the package: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/85792 In the end, the maintainer rage-quit: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/2551 However, this is the extreme behaviour: most developers (and rational people) agree to adding systemd unit files to all packages, and we have much better coverage now that some months ago. If users cooperate opening bugs adding systemd unit files (after testing them in their machines), the coverage is going to grow even faster. Regards. On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, cov...@ccs.covici.com wrote: Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:53 PM, cov...@ccs.covici.com wrote: Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 28 July 2013 03:22:02 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Therefore, as of today, anyone can have a Gentoo machine with only systemd, with no OpenRC installed. Really? Bug 373219 is still open. Sorry, I missed your explanation at the end about that one. Ok, thanks for what you've done :) Mmmh, and I missed this last reply of you. Anyway, dealing with /etc/init.d/functions.sh is basically trivial. But still, we have lots of packages with no systemd units -- shouldn't they all have a systemd use flag and units to go with it -- basically anything which has something in /etc/init.d . I was looking for a sendmail unit and could find nothing, for one example. Yeah, we are not even near 100% coverage. However, one of the many advantages of systemd is that a service unit from a distribution usually works as-is or with minimal changes in any other. For many basic unit files, you can go to https://github.com/vonSchlotzkow/systemd-gentoo-units It has a unit file for postfix, for example. If the one you are looking for is not there, you can search in other distributions. If you download the RPM from http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/4/idpl/21317874/dir/fedora_19/com/sendmail-8.14.7-1.fc19.i686.rpm.html, and extract the files with rpm2tarbz2, then you can get the sendmail.service file. It will probably need some changes to work with Gentoo, but it should not be difficult. When is working, you can send your unit to the package maintainer in Gentoo, and at some point it could be included in the package (like the OpenRC init script). That's how we will get 100% coverage, eventually. OK, I will check those -- thanks. I hope package maintainers now start putting those service units in, now that systemd is required by gnome. -- Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: How do you spend it? John Covici cov...@ccs.covici.com What's irrational about that guy's reasons for being against the systemd unit files? I remember that thread, and he made some decent technical points. Unfortunately, the council rejected a systemd USE flag, so the best route was shot in the head before it had a chance. Yet OpenRC needs a USE flag to enable it... rather fishy. You need an OpenRC use flag to install OpenRC init scripts? That's simply a lie. If you don't want OpenRC scripts in /etc/init.d, you need to set INSTALL_MASK accordingly. The same with systemd if you don't want unit files in /usr/lib/systemd/system. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
Top-posting because my question is about something in the linked threads... In one comment was said the following: Can I ask the systemd people to design a working solution for opting out? I can't support this initiative without such a solution and I would be happy to work with the systemd people to reach it, ie I'll test. This already went before the Council, and the decision was that INSTALL_MASK IS the working solution for opting out. If somebody wants to come up with a better one and propose it they're of course welcome to, but in the meantime, INSTALL_MASK is the official solution. Where is this 'INSTALL_MASK' option for opting out of systemd completely documented? Googling only finds references to this discussion? Thanks, Charles On 2013-07-30 6:40 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: There is going to be resistance. Two months ago there was a huge thread in gentoo-dev, because a package maintaner complained that his co-maintainer added a systemd unit to the package: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/85792 In the end, the maintainer rage-quit: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/2551 However, this is the extreme behaviour: most developers (and rational people) agree to adding systemd unit files to all packages, and we have much better coverage now that some months ago. If users cooperate opening bugs adding systemd unit files (after testing them in their machines), the coverage is going to grow even faster.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 07:34:22 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote: Where is this 'INSTALL_MASK' option for opting out of systemd completely documented? man make.conf -- Neil Bothwick If at first you don't succeed, redefine success. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 2013-07-31 8:22 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 07:34:22 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote: Where is this 'INSTALL_MASK' option for opting out of systemd completely documented? man make.conf Thanks but... I didn't see one word mention of systemd. So, how should this be used to 'opt out of systemd completely'?
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31/07/13 at 08:30am, Tanstaafl wrote: So, how should this be used to 'opt out of systemd completely'? from main make.conf Use this variable if you want to selectively prevent certain files from being copied into your file system tree. .. You can use it to prevent ebuilds from installing unit files or open-rc scripts from doing so (based on what you want to opt-out of). -- - Yohan Pereira The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and a seal. -- Mark Twain
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 7:30 AM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: On 2013-07-31 8:22 AM, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 07:34:22 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote: Where is this 'INSTALL_MASK' option for opting out of systemd completely documented? man make.conf Thanks but... I didn't see one word mention of systemd. So, how should this be used to 'opt out of systemd completely'? If you don't use the systemd USE flag (and never install anything that depends on systemd), you will not get systemd installed, but many packages will install systemd unit files in /urs/lib/systemd/system. This unit files are little non-executable files which do nothing in your system, but some people feel really strongly about having anything in their machines with *systemd* in its path. If you want to exorcise those unit files, add /usr/lib/systemd/system to INSTALL_MASK. It's the exact same situation with OpenRC: those of us who install systemd don't want nor need the files in /etc/init.d, but they get installed anyway. If we want to exorcise OpenRC init scripts from our systems, we need to add /etc/init.d to INSTALL_MASK. For the record, I now think it's a waste of time trying to stop the installation of tiny files that basically do nothing, either in /usr/lib/systemd/system or in /etc/init.d, but you have the option if you so desire. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 2013-07-31 8:41 AM, Yohan Pereira yohan.pere...@gmail.com wrote: On 31/07/13 at 08:30am, Tanstaafl wrote: So, how should this be used to 'opt out of systemd completely'? from main make.conf Use this variable if you want to selectively prevent certain files from being copied into your file system tree. .. You can use it to prevent ebuilds from installing unit files or open-rc scripts from doing so (based on what you want to opt-out of). Well, no offense, but that is gobbledy-greek to non programmers. I would have no idea *how* to 'prevent ebuilds from installing unit files...'. If this really is 'the one true way' to 'totally opt out of systemd', then in my opinion there should be a very thorough example of *how* to 'opt out of systemd' included in the man page. Side-question... I'm wondering if one of the reasons that the dev who was making such a big deal of this was mainly concerned about the 'slipper slope' factor, and saw some writing on the wall that the systemd devs were just playing nice just to get their foot in the door, then were going to pull some tricks to force changes that would eventually result in *everyone* (even those using eudev) to *have* to switch to systemd some time in the future? Not saying this is how it is, but I'm more than a bit concerned about this.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 2013-07-31 11:20 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: If you don't use the systemd USE flag (and never install anything that depends on systemd), you will not get systemd installed, but many packages will install systemd unit files in /urs/lib/systemd/system. This unit files are little non-executable files which do nothing in your system, but some people feel really strongly about having anything in their machines with *systemd* in its path. If you want to exorcise those unit files, add /usr/lib/systemd/system to INSTALL_MASK. Ok, thanks Canek... but my last question remains... if this really is going to be the only and one true way to opt out of systemd, shouldn't this be well documented in the man page, as opposed to just generic references to masking 'files'...? It's the exact same situation with OpenRC: those of us who install systemd don't want nor need the files in /etc/init.d, but they get installed anyway. If we want to exorcise OpenRC init scripts from our systems, we need to add /etc/init.d to INSTALL_MASK. And so *both* should be fully documented in the man page... For the record, I now think it's a waste of time trying to stop the installation of tiny files that basically do nothing, either in /usr/lib/systemd/system or in /etc/init.d, but you have the option if you so desire. Ok, and thanks again...
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Tanstaafl tansta...@libertytrek.org wrote: On 2013-07-31 11:20 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: If you don't use the systemd USE flag (and never install anything that depends on systemd), you will not get systemd installed, but many packages will install systemd unit files in /urs/lib/systemd/system. This unit files are little non-executable files which do nothing in your system, but some people feel really strongly about having anything in their machines with *systemd* in its path. If you want to exorcise those unit files, add /usr/lib/systemd/system to INSTALL_MASK. Ok, thanks Canek... but my last question remains... if this really is going to be the only and one true way to opt out of systemd, shouldn't this be well documented in the man page, as opposed to just generic references to masking 'files'...? No, because the *exact same* situation occurs for Bash completion scripts... and logrotate scripts... and cron jobs... and... The devs decided (and I agree with them) that the important thing is to cover the necessities of the majority of users and to have reasonable default settings. Therefore, having USE flags for bash_complete, and logrotate, and crond, and systemd, and OpenRC, and whatever else you want to throw in the mix is overkill and a maintenance nightmare. Not to mention that they will require a full rebuild every time you changed one of those flags. And the packages (in general) will not care about those tiny files; they will work fine with all of them installed, no matter if you don't use Bash completion, nor logrotate, nor crond, nor systemd nor OpenRC. So, those files are installed unconditionally. And that's the smart thing to do, since most users will not even care about any of them. There is no need to document nothing special about any of them (bash_complete, logrotate, crond, systemd, OpenRC, etc.), since that option is for really special cases (think embedded devices with really small disk space), or for really picky users (like myself some weeks ago, before I reached the conclusion that masking files in /etc/init.d is not worth it). It's the exact same situation with OpenRC: those of us who install systemd don't want nor need the files in /etc/init.d, but they get installed anyway. If we want to exorcise OpenRC init scripts from our systems, we need to add /etc/init.d to INSTALL_MASK. And so *both* should be fully documented in the man page... No, see above. For the record, I now think it's a waste of time trying to stop the installation of tiny files that basically do nothing, either in /usr/lib/systemd/system or in /etc/init.d, but you have the option if you so desire. Ok, and thanks again... Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31/07/13 at 11:26am, Tanstaafl wrote: On 2013-07-31 11:20 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: If you don't use the systemd USE flag (and never install anything that depends on systemd), you will not get systemd installed, but many packages will install systemd unit files in /urs/lib/systemd/system. This unit files are little non-executable files which do nothing in your system, but some people feel really strongly about having anything in their machines with *systemd* in its path. If you want to exorcise those unit files, add /usr/lib/systemd/system to INSTALL_MASK. Ok, thanks Canek... but my last question remains... if this really is going to be the only and one true way to opt out of systemd, shouldn't this be well documented in the man page, as opposed to just generic references to masking 'files'...? The one true way is to set -systemd in your useflags. However anything that hard depends on systemd will pull it in like AFAIR gnome. Trying to opt-out of systemd in these cases is not supported and probably not trivial. The install_mask is just for preventing certain tiny files that certain packages install that let them be used by a init sytstem like the scripts in init.d in the case of openrc and unit files in the case of systemd. ALl this will do is help you save few kbs of disk space. It wont help you get rid of systemd in cases where its required like in the case of gnome. -- - Yohan Pereira The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and a seal. -- Mark Twain
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 07/31/2013 11:20 AM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: For the record, I now think it's a waste of time trying to stop the installation of tiny files that basically do nothing, either in /usr/lib/systemd/system or in /etc/init.d, but you have the option if you so desire. The nice thing about the systemd service files is that they're distribution independent. That means the service file can go upstream, and the daemon's authors can make sure that it's correct. No more duplication of effort for each distro maintainer. Of course, you don't get that benefit unless you use systemd. But it's tempting, right? So there's been some talk about getting openrc, upstart, etc. to parse the systemd service files. That way, we'd get the benefit without having to run systemd. Should that dream ever become reality, you may one day get an unexpected surprise if you INSTALL_MASK the service files. In any case, masking them would be just one more make.conf setting you have to worry about. If it makes the situation more palatable, note that the service files come from the package authors, and not from the systemd people.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 2013-07-31 11:45 AM, Yohan Pereira yohan.pere...@gmail.com wrote: The one true way is to set -systemd in your useflags. However anything that hard depends on systemd will pull it in like AFAIR gnome. Trying to opt-out of systemd in these cases is not supported and probably not trivial. Ok, I misread some things in those discussions (was reading quickly)... I could have sworn I saw mention a -systemd USE flag was explicitly rejected by the devs... now I see it was only a USE flag for the inclusion of the unit files. Sorry for the noise...
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31/07/2013 17:36, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: No, because the *exact same* situation occurs for Bash completion scripts... and logrotate scripts... and cron jobs... and... The devs decided (and I agree with them) that the important thing is to cover the necessities of the majority of users and to have reasonable default settings. Therefore, having USE flags for bash_complete, and logrotate, and crond, and systemd, and OpenRC, and whatever else you want to throw in the mix is overkill and a maintenance nightmare. Not to mention that they will require a full rebuild every time you changed one of those flags. And the packages (in general) will not care about those tiny files; they will work fine with all of them installed, no matter if you don't use Bash completion, nor logrotate, nor crond, nor systemd nor OpenRC. So, those files are installed unconditionally. And that's the smart thing to do, since most users will not even care about any of them. Folk will get MUCH larger savings if they mask html help/doc files from being installed. Those things get to be huge. Whinging about systemd binaries being installed is valid, but whinging about some data files is not. Anyone who does is letting their OCD show in ways they really should be keeping private. Unless the system is embedded in which case a lot more than units are going to be masked out -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31 July 2013, at 18:23, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Whinging about systemd binaries being installed is valid, but whinging about some data files is not. Anyone who does is letting their OCD show in ways they really should be keeping private. Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Stroller strol...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 18:23, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Whinging about systemd binaries being installed is valid, but whinging about some data files is not. Anyone who does is letting their OCD show in ways they really should be keeping private. Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. If you use systemd, all the files installed in /etc/init.d (except functions.sh) don't actually do nothing. If you use OpenRC, all the files installed in /urs/lib/systemd/system don't actually do nothing. Whichever you use (OpenRC or systemd), you will have files in both locations (actually, a bunch of them), and therefore one of those locations will have files that don't actually do nothing. Unless you use INSTALL_MASK, which is of course what this is all about. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31/07/2013 19:56, Stroller wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 18:23, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Whinging about systemd binaries being installed is valid, but whinging about some data files is not. Anyone who does is letting their OCD show in ways they really should be keeping private. Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. Stroller. You are understanding it wrong. The scene being worked towards is: ebuilds for services will install openrc scripts in /etc/init.d ebuilds for services will install unit files somewhere else. Only one of those sets of teeny weeny files can be used at a time, the set in user depends on the service manager. There's an idea floating around that openrc could use systemd unit files but it's still just an idea. If it becomes more than an idea, the files in /etc/init.d may or may not be dispensed with. Either way it doesn't matter. Unit files are unlikely to number more than 100 total, and are likely to be smaller than 1 fs allocation unit in size. bash's man page is considerably larger than all that all by itself. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31/07/13 at 06:56pm, Stroller wrote: Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. If your refering to what I think your refering to then I think Canek was talking about packages installing systemd unit files as well ask openrc init scripts regardless of the init system in use. There fore systemd users will have scripts in init.d which they do not use and vice versa. -- - Yohan Pereira The difference between a Miracle and a Fact is exactly the difference between a mermaid and a seal. -- Mark Twain
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 01:09:03PM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. If you use systemd, all the files installed in /etc/init.d (except functions.sh) don't actually do nothing. If you use OpenRC, all the files installed in /urs/lib/systemd/system don't actually do nothing. Whichever you use (OpenRC or systemd), you will have files in both locations (actually, a bunch of them), and therefore one of those locations will have files that don't actually do nothing. Unless you use INSTALL_MASK, which is of course what this is all about. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México In English don't actually do nothing means do something; i.e. don't actually do anything != don't actually do nothing. -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On 31/07/2013 19:56, Stroller wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 18:23, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Whinging about systemd binaries being installed is valid, but whinging about some data files is not. Anyone who does is letting their OCD show in ways they really should be keeping private. Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. Stroller. You are understanding it wrong. The scene being worked towards is: ebuilds for services will install openrc scripts in /etc/init.d ebuilds for services will install unit files somewhere else. Only one of those sets of teeny weeny files can be used at a time, the set in user depends on the service manager. There's an idea floating around that openrc could use systemd unit files but it's still just an idea. If it becomes more than an idea, the files in /etc/init.d may or may not be dispensed with. Either way it doesn't matter. Unit files are unlikely to number more than 100 total, and are likely to be smaller than 1 fs allocation unit in size. 160 files in my laptop, using 652K, 122 files in a LAMP server, using 492K. bash's man page is considerably larger than all that all by itself. bash's man page is 62K in my laptop (compressed with bzip2), 277K uncompressed. So, not quite exactly like you say, but the point remains true. The man pages in my laptop use more than 20 times the space used in /usr/lib/systemd (and that includes binaries like systemd itself and systemd-udev). acero ~ # du -sh /usr/share/man 82M /usr/share/man acero ~ # du -sh /usr/lib/systemd/ 3.6M /usr/lib/systemd/ And /usr/share/doc is 2.5G in my laptop. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 01:09:03PM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. If you use systemd, all the files installed in /etc/init.d (except functions.sh) don't actually do nothing. If you use OpenRC, all the files installed in /urs/lib/systemd/system don't actually do nothing. Whichever you use (OpenRC or systemd), you will have files in both locations (actually, a bunch of them), and therefore one of those locations will have files that don't actually do nothing. Unless you use INSTALL_MASK, which is of course what this is all about. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México In English don't actually do nothing means do something; i.e. don't actually do anything != don't actually do nothing. I was using (on purpose) the exact same sentence that Stroller used. I believe he's German; I'm Mexican. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: On 31/07/2013 19:56, Stroller wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 18:23, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Whinging about systemd binaries being installed is valid, but whinging about some data files is not. Anyone who does is letting their OCD show in ways they really should be keeping private. Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. Stroller. You are understanding it wrong. The scene being worked towards is: ebuilds for services will install openrc scripts in /etc/init.d ebuilds for services will install unit files somewhere else. Only one of those sets of teeny weeny files can be used at a time, the set in user depends on the service manager. There's an idea floating around that openrc could use systemd unit files but it's still just an idea. If it becomes more than an idea, the files in /etc/init.d may or may not be dispensed with. Either way it doesn't matter. Unit files are unlikely to number more than 100 total, and are likely to be smaller than 1 fs allocation unit in size. 160 files in my laptop, using 652K, 122 files in a LAMP server, using 492K. bash's man page is considerably larger than all that all by itself. bash's man page is 62K in my laptop (compressed with bzip2), 277K uncompressed. So, not quite exactly like you say, but the point remains true. The man pages in my laptop use more than 20 times the space used in /usr/lib/systemd (and that includes binaries like systemd itself and systemd-udev). Oh, I just noticed that systemd-udev is a link to /sbin/udev. So add 205K more for it. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31 July 2013, at 19:09, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Stroller strol...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 18:23, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Whinging about systemd binaries being installed is valid, but whinging about some data files is not. Anyone who does is letting their OCD show in ways they really should be keeping private. Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. If you use systemd, all the files installed in /etc/init.d (except functions.sh) don't actually do nothing. Right, which is a bit freakin' odd, because on most every previous distro and other *nix system, that's where the system administrator goes to start and stop services. If they're not used, in this case, I don't think they should be installed. /etc/init.d is wholly different from /usr/share/package-name/examples There are many other directories on the system where it's no problem to have some idle, unused, wasted files, but /etc/init.d has long been an important directory. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31 July 2013, at 19:09, Alan McKinnon wrote: On 31/07/2013 19:56, Stroller wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 18:23, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Whinging about systemd binaries being installed is valid, but whinging about some data files is not. Anyone who does is letting their OCD show in ways they really should be keeping private. Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. You are understanding it wrong. No. According to Canek, I'm not. Only one of those sets of teeny weeny files can be used at a time, Heck! Even according to yourself, in the same email, I'm not understanding it wrong! I've asked you this before - would you stop wrongly telling people they're wrong, please? Would you please just stop and think could it be me who is misunderstanding this? Could you please just rephrase yourself I think you may be mistaken. Whenever it is *you* who is mistaken, you are always assertively and authoritatively so. This makes it harder for people to question or challenge you, and it ensures those you misadvise will waste their time with greater determination. Well, Alan knows what he's on about, and he said this definitely - there was no doubt in his statement. Not only that, it's just plain annoying to be told one is wrong when one is not. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31 July 2013, at 19:24, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: ... If you use systemd, all the files installed in /etc/init.d (except functions.sh) don't actually do nothing. In English don't actually do nothing means do something; i.e. don't actually do anything != don't actually do nothing. I was using (on purpose) the exact same sentence that Stroller used. I believe he's German; I'm Mexican. I'm English. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:59 PM, Stroller strol...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 19:24, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: ... If you use systemd, all the files installed in /etc/init.d (except functions.sh) don't actually do nothing. In English don't actually do nothing means do something; i.e. don't actually do anything != don't actually do nothing. I was using (on purpose) the exact same sentence that Stroller used. I believe he's German; I'm Mexican. I'm English. Oh, sorry; I thought I saw your email host ending with .de. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Stroller strol...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 19:09, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Stroller strol...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 18:23, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Whinging about systemd binaries being installed is valid, but whinging about some data files is not. Anyone who does is letting their OCD show in ways they really should be keeping private. Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. If you use systemd, all the files installed in /etc/init.d (except functions.sh) don't actually do nothing. Right, which is a bit freakin' odd, because on most every previous distro and other *nix system, that's where the system administrator goes to start and stop services. If they're not used, in this case, I don't think they should be installed. /etc/init.d is wholly different from /usr/share/package-name/examples There are many other directories on the system where it's no problem to have some idle, unused, wasted files, but /etc/init.d has long been an important directory. That was one of the reasons I started the gentoo-systemd-only overlay; if you used systemd, and tried to run /etc/init.d/whatever start, the results would vary from annoying to catastrophic. Nowadays you get the following warning: * You are attempting to run an openrc service on a * system which openrc did not boot. * You may be inside a chroot or you may have used * another initialization system to boot this system. * In this situation, you will get unpredictable results! * If you really want to do this, issue the following command: * touch /run/openrc/softlevel So it's pretty harmless. I believe the same applies for the files in /etc/init.d (or /usr/lib/systemd/system) that for the files in /etc/cron.daily, or /etc/bash_completion.d. They should be installed unconditionally. If you don't like it, INSTALL_MASK'd them. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31 July 2013, at 20:03, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:59 PM, Stroller strol...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 19:24, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: ... If you use systemd, all the files installed in /etc/init.d (except functions.sh) don't actually do nothing. In English don't actually do nothing means do something; i.e. don't actually do anything != don't actually do nothing. I was using (on purpose) the exact same sentence that Stroller used. I believe he's German; I'm Mexican. I'm English. Oh, sorry; I thought I saw your email host ending with .de. It's no problem. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31/07/2013 20:54, Stroller wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 19:09, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Stroller strol...@stellar.eclipse.co.uk wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 18:23, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Whinging about systemd binaries being installed is valid, but whinging about some data files is not. Anyone who does is letting their OCD show in ways they really should be keeping private. Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. If you use systemd, all the files installed in /etc/init.d (except functions.sh) don't actually do nothing. Right, which is a bit freakin' odd, because on most every previous distro and other *nix system, that's where the system administrator goes to start and stop services. If they're not used, in this case, I don't think they should be installed. /etc/init.d is wholly different from /usr/share/package-name/examples There are many other directories on the system where it's no problem to have some idle, unused, wasted files, but /etc/init.d has long been an important directory. True, but this one is an oddity. The ebuild for the daemon installs those files, and the ebuild doesn't know when you change your mind about a service manager. If you omitted the init scripts, you get to remerge all your daemon packages just to get them. Yuck. And that's just crappy design. You *could* have them stored in /usr/share somewhere and eselect service-manager copies them around when changes are made, but that's just extra brittle layers of complexity for no good reason. A much better solution is something like a service daemon start|stop|reload wrapper which RH/Fedora/Ubuntu et al have been doing for like ages. It's not really any different to using rc-update instead of fiddling with classic SysV init symlinks. A presumably the sysadmin knows what service manager he is using so knows whether to use classic init scripts or not. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, 31 Jul 2013 19:54:54 +0100, Stroller wrote: If you use systemd, all the files installed in /etc/init.d (except functions.sh) don't actually do nothing. Right, which is a bit freakin' odd, because on most every previous distro and other *nix system, that's where the system administrator goes to start and stop services. And that is why it is possible to have systemd and openrc installed at the same time, because they keep their service files in completely different locations. If they're not used, in this case, I don't think they should be installed. Which is where this thread started, should every daemon package have a couple of extra USE flags just to decide which, or both, of the service manager files to install. Then you'd probably need some eclass code to determine that you have at least one of those USE flags enabled, and maybe some code to forbid both on packages that don't work with both service managers installed. Or you could allow each server's ebuild to install one redundant small file, bearing in mind that a different file may be redundant for the next user. So let the ebuild install both files and those of use with excessive OCD tendencies, or very limited storage, can use INSTALL_MASK t exclude not only the redundant service files but a lot more besides. -- Neil Bothwick Octal: (n.) a base-8 counting system designed so that one hand may count upon the fingers of the other. Thumbs are not used, and the index finger is reserved for the 'carry.' signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31 July 2013, at 20:09, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: … if you used systemd, and tried to run /etc/init.d/whatever start, … Nowadays you get the following warning: * You are attempting to run an openrc service on a * system which openrc did not boot. *... So it's pretty harmless. Oh, nice. That's very acceptable, then - a clean migration path. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31/07/2013 20:54, Stroller wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 19:09, Alan McKinnon wrote: On 31/07/2013 19:56, Stroller wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 18:23, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Whinging about systemd binaries being installed is valid, but whinging about some data files is not. Anyone who does is letting their OCD show in ways they really should be keeping private. Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. You are understanding it wrong. No. According to Canek, I'm not. Only one of those sets of teeny weeny files can be used at a time, Heck! Even according to yourself, in the same email, I'm not understanding it wrong! I've asked you this before - would you stop wrongly telling people they're wrong, please? Would you please just stop and think could it be me who is misunderstanding this? Could you please just rephrase yourself I think you may be mistaken. Whenever it is *you* who is mistaken, you are always assertively and authoritatively so. This makes it harder for people to question or challenge you, and it ensures those you misadvise will waste their time with greater determination. Well, Alan knows what he's on about, and he said this definitely - there was no doubt in his statement. Not only that, it's just plain annoying to be told one is wrong when one is not. Stroller. Sure, I can do that. I read that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything different to what you intended. English can be very ambiguous. If we take You are understanding it wrong. out of my mail is the rest OK? -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 01:24:29PM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Bruce Hill da...@happypenguincomputers.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 01:09:03PM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Hmmmn, it's a bit freaking weird - if I'm understanding correctly some of the statements made here about systemd - that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything. If you use systemd, all the files installed in /etc/init.d (except functions.sh) don't actually do nothing. If you use OpenRC, all the files installed in /urs/lib/systemd/system don't actually do nothing. Whichever you use (OpenRC or systemd), you will have files in both locations (actually, a bunch of them), and therefore one of those locations will have files that don't actually do nothing. Unless you use INSTALL_MASK, which is of course what this is all about. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México In English don't actually do nothing means do something; i.e. don't actually do anything != don't actually do nothing. I was using (on purpose) the exact same sentence that Stroller used. I believe he's German; I'm Mexican. Well, don't actually do anything is proper English; don't actually do nothing is not. -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Wed, Jul 31, 2013 at 01:22:21PM -0500, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: acero ~ # du -sh /usr/share/man 82M /usr/share/man acero ~ # du -sh /usr/lib/systemd/ 3.6M /usr/lib/systemd/ And /usr/share/doc is 2.5G in my laptop. That's due to USE=doc rather than USE=-doc -- Happy Penguin Computers ') 126 Fenco Drive ( \ Tupelo, MS 38801 ^^ supp...@happypenguincomputers.com 662-269-2706 662-205-6424 http://happypenguincomputers.com/ A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Don't top-post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post#Top-posting
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31 July 2013, at 20:38, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Heck! Even according to yourself, in the same email, I'm not understanding it wrong! I've asked you this before - would you stop wrongly telling people they're wrong, please? Would you please just stop and think could it be me who is misunderstanding this? Could you please just rephrase yourself I think you may be mistaken. Whenever it is *you* who is mistaken, you are always assertively and authoritatively so. This makes it harder for people to question or challenge you, and it ensures those you misadvise will waste their time with greater determination. Well, Alan knows what he's on about, and he said this definitely - there was no doubt in his statement. Not only that, it's just plain annoying to be told one is wrong when one is not. Sure, I can do that. I read that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything different to what you intended. English can be very ambiguous. If we take You are understanding it wrong. out of my mail is the rest OK? The problem with the rest of that message was that, although accurate, it stemmed from the assumption that someone else must have misunderstood. A similar explanation had already been given in this thread - I'd read that, and that's why I was responding. Had you instead asked what do you mean? or why does that bother you? you would have given me the opportunity to clarify. Had I shown a misunderstanding upon further elaboration, that would been your opportunity to demonstrate your wisdom. Everyone here respects your knowledge and experience, it just feels like you're in such a rush to be helpful that you assume someone else must've screwed up. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31/07/2013 23:22, Stroller wrote: On 31 July 2013, at 20:38, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Heck! Even according to yourself, in the same email, I'm not understanding it wrong! I've asked you this before - would you stop wrongly telling people they're wrong, please? Would you please just stop and think could it be me who is misunderstanding this? Could you please just rephrase yourself I think you may be mistaken. Whenever it is *you* who is mistaken, you are always assertively and authoritatively so. This makes it harder for people to question or challenge you, and it ensures those you misadvise will waste their time with greater determination. Well, Alan knows what he's on about, and he said this definitely - there was no doubt in his statement. Not only that, it's just plain annoying to be told one is wrong when one is not. Sure, I can do that. I read that there will be files installed to /etc/init.d/ that don't actually do anything different to what you intended. English can be very ambiguous. If we take You are understanding it wrong. out of my mail is the rest OK? The problem with the rest of that message was that, although accurate, it stemmed from the assumption that someone else must have misunderstood. A similar explanation had already been given in this thread - I'd read that, and that's why I was responding. Had you instead asked what do you mean? or why does that bother you? you would have given me the opportunity to clarify. Had I shown a misunderstanding upon further elaboration, that would been your opportunity to demonstrate your wisdom. Everyone here respects your knowledge and experience, it just feels like you're in such a rush to be helpful that you assume someone else must've screwed up. This might sound a bit weird, but I type like I speak. I never developed a distinct writing style different from a spoken style, and people who know me in person comment on it often. And I don't proof-read enough either. My bad. I don't have any of these problems with face-to-face conversation, but it doesn't work too good over email. I'm not unaware of how I probably come across, and I'm working on it. Admittedly I'm not having a huge amount of success just yet, but I am working on it. Several smart folk tell me it takes time. Are we OK on this for now, or is there more to discuss? -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31 July 2013, at 22:43, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... Are we OK on this for now, or is there more to discuss? Yes, that's great. I'm glad we can be open and honest when we've got these kinds of problems. On other occasions I've worried that you might have driven away someone who was seeking help here, but I've felt like it wasn't my place to intervene. The only advice I can perhaps give you is to read the question twice and hesitate before replying. If you wait an hour before hitting reply, maybe you'll be less likely to do so with your initial certainty. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On 31 July 2013, at 20:28, Alan McKinnon wrote: Right, which is a bit freakin' odd, because on most every previous distro and other *nix system, that's where the system administrator goes to start and stop services. If they're not used, in this case, I don't think they should be installed. /etc/init.d is wholly different from /usr/share/package-name/examples There are many other directories on the system where it's no problem to have some idle, unused, wasted files, but /etc/init.d has long been an important directory. True, but this one is an oddity. The ebuild for the daemon installs those files, and the ebuild doesn't know when you change your mind about a service manager. If you omitted the init scripts, you get to remerge all your daemon packages just to get them. Yuck. In general, and personally, I would regard that as an acceptable compromise, for a migration that only needs to be carried out once. Each month we might upgrade numerous packages on our Gentoo systems, I don't think it's that ugly to reinstall a few packages just once for something major like this. On a binary distro this doesn't arise because they say we'll be sticking with init.d throughout 10.x, and with 11.0 we'll start using systemd. In Gentoo my objections are rendered moot by Canek's explanation that systemd replaces the init.d function helpers with a message that says hey, init.d isn't used by this system, so that those scripts exit gracefully. I find this quite an elegant migration path. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Sunday 28 July 2013 03:22:02 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: William Hubbs closed bug #409385[1] as fixed, introducing virtual/service-manager and adding it to the @system set, and dropping OpenRC from baselayout's post dependencies. Therefore, as of today, anyone can have a Gentoo machine with only systemd, with no OpenRC installed. Really? Bug 373219 is still open.
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 28 July 2013 03:22:02 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Therefore, as of today, anyone can have a Gentoo machine with only systemd, with no OpenRC installed. Really? Bug 373219 is still open. Sorry, I missed your explanation at the end about that one. Ok, thanks for what you've done :)
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 28 July 2013 03:22:02 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: William Hubbs closed bug #409385[1] as fixed, introducing virtual/service-manager and adding it to the @system set, and dropping OpenRC from baselayout's post dependencies. Therefore, as of today, anyone can have a Gentoo machine with only systemd, with no OpenRC installed. Really? Bug 373219 is still open. Yeah, and as I said in my original mail Also, without OpenRC we don't have /etc/init.d/functions.sh , but you can use the alternatives provided in my overlay or in bug #373219[3]. I'm pretty sure someone will close that bug pretty soon. Basically, download elog-functions.sh (or any other alternative provided in the bug, there are several), and put it in /etc/init.d/functions.sh. Problem solved, or at least until someone closes 373219. Besides, /etc/init.d/functions.sh only really affects you when using python-updater, gcc-config, or similar tools. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 28 July 2013 03:22:02 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Therefore, as of today, anyone can have a Gentoo machine with only systemd, with no OpenRC installed. Really? Bug 373219 is still open. Sorry, I missed your explanation at the end about that one. Ok, thanks for what you've done :) Mmmh, and I missed this last reply of you. Anyway, dealing with /etc/init.d/functions.sh is basically trivial. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 28 July 2013 03:22:02 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Therefore, as of today, anyone can have a Gentoo machine with only systemd, with no OpenRC installed. Really? Bug 373219 is still open. Sorry, I missed your explanation at the end about that one. Ok, thanks for what you've done :) Mmmh, and I missed this last reply of you. Anyway, dealing with /etc/init.d/functions.sh is basically trivial. But still, we have lots of packages with no systemd units -- shouldn't they all have a systemd use flag and units to go with it -- basically anything which has something in /etc/init.d . I was looking for a sendmail unit and could find nothing, for one example. -- Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: How do you spend it? John Covici cov...@ccs.covici.com
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:53 PM, cov...@ccs.covici.com wrote: Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 28 July 2013 03:22:02 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Therefore, as of today, anyone can have a Gentoo machine with only systemd, with no OpenRC installed. Really? Bug 373219 is still open. Sorry, I missed your explanation at the end about that one. Ok, thanks for what you've done :) Mmmh, and I missed this last reply of you. Anyway, dealing with /etc/init.d/functions.sh is basically trivial. But still, we have lots of packages with no systemd units -- shouldn't they all have a systemd use flag and units to go with it -- basically anything which has something in /etc/init.d . I was looking for a sendmail unit and could find nothing, for one example. Yeah, we are not even near 100% coverage. However, one of the many advantages of systemd is that a service unit from a distribution usually works as-is or with minimal changes in any other. For many basic unit files, you can go to https://github.com/vonSchlotzkow/systemd-gentoo-units It has a unit file for postfix, for example. If the one you are looking for is not there, you can search in other distributions. If you download the RPM from http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/4/idpl/21317874/dir/fedora_19/com/sendmail-8.14.7-1.fc19.i686.rpm.html, and extract the files with rpm2tarbz2, then you can get the sendmail.service file. It will probably need some changes to work with Gentoo, but it should not be difficult. When is working, you can send your unit to the package maintainer in Gentoo, and at some point it could be included in the package (like the OpenRC init script). That's how we will get 100% coverage, eventually. Regards. -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:53 PM, cov...@ccs.covici.com wrote: Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 28 July 2013 03:22:02 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Therefore, as of today, anyone can have a Gentoo machine with only systemd, with no OpenRC installed. Really? Bug 373219 is still open. Sorry, I missed your explanation at the end about that one. Ok, thanks for what you've done :) Mmmh, and I missed this last reply of you. Anyway, dealing with /etc/init.d/functions.sh is basically trivial. But still, we have lots of packages with no systemd units -- shouldn't they all have a systemd use flag and units to go with it -- basically anything which has something in /etc/init.d . I was looking for a sendmail unit and could find nothing, for one example. Yeah, we are not even near 100% coverage. However, one of the many advantages of systemd is that a service unit from a distribution usually works as-is or with minimal changes in any other. For many basic unit files, you can go to https://github.com/vonSchlotzkow/systemd-gentoo-units It has a unit file for postfix, for example. If the one you are looking for is not there, you can search in other distributions. If you download the RPM from http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/4/idpl/21317874/dir/fedora_19/com/sendmail-8.14.7-1.fc19.i686.rpm.html, and extract the files with rpm2tarbz2, then you can get the sendmail.service file. It will probably need some changes to work with Gentoo, but it should not be difficult. When is working, you can send your unit to the package maintainer in Gentoo, and at some point it could be included in the package (like the OpenRC init script). That's how we will get 100% coverage, eventually. OK, I will check those -- thanks. I hope package maintainers now start putting those service units in, now that systemd is required by gnome. -- Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: How do you spend it? John Covici cov...@ccs.covici.com
Re: [gentoo-user] gentoo-systemd-only deprecation
There is going to be resistance. Two months ago there was a huge thread in gentoo-dev, because a package maintaner complained that his co-maintainer added a systemd unit to the package: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/85792 In the end, the maintainer rage-quit: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.project/2551 However, this is the extreme behaviour: most developers (and rational people) agree to adding systemd unit files to all packages, and we have much better coverage now that some months ago. If users cooperate opening bugs adding systemd unit files (after testing them in their machines), the coverage is going to grow even faster. Regards. On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, cov...@ccs.covici.com wrote: Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 12:53 PM, cov...@ccs.covici.com wrote: Canek Peláez Valdés can...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 2:47 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 30, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Pavel Volkov negai...@gmail.com wrote: On Sunday 28 July 2013 03:22:02 Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: Therefore, as of today, anyone can have a Gentoo machine with only systemd, with no OpenRC installed. Really? Bug 373219 is still open. Sorry, I missed your explanation at the end about that one. Ok, thanks for what you've done :) Mmmh, and I missed this last reply of you. Anyway, dealing with /etc/init.d/functions.sh is basically trivial. But still, we have lots of packages with no systemd units -- shouldn't they all have a systemd use flag and units to go with it -- basically anything which has something in /etc/init.d . I was looking for a sendmail unit and could find nothing, for one example. Yeah, we are not even near 100% coverage. However, one of the many advantages of systemd is that a service unit from a distribution usually works as-is or with minimal changes in any other. For many basic unit files, you can go to https://github.com/vonSchlotzkow/systemd-gentoo-units It has a unit file for postfix, for example. If the one you are looking for is not there, you can search in other distributions. If you download the RPM from http://rpm.pbone.net/index.php3/stat/4/idpl/21317874/dir/fedora_19/com/sendmail-8.14.7-1.fc19.i686.rpm.html, and extract the files with rpm2tarbz2, then you can get the sendmail.service file. It will probably need some changes to work with Gentoo, but it should not be difficult. When is working, you can send your unit to the package maintainer in Gentoo, and at some point it could be included in the package (like the OpenRC init script). That's how we will get 100% coverage, eventually. OK, I will check those -- thanks. I hope package maintainers now start putting those service units in, now that systemd is required by gnome. -- Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: How do you spend it? John Covici cov...@ccs.covici.com -- Canek Peláez Valdés Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
