Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP-2.10 and GIMP2.99 are still sRGB-only image editors
"I general we're not likely to move to anything that isn't libre" I would suggest the Matrix protocol. It has a fully open api standard and reference server implementation with gpl compatible license. https://matrix. org/discover/ ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP-2.10 and GIMP2.99 are still sRGB-only image editors
Hi! On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 1:00 AM Elle Stone wrote: > A misconception I keep seeing on various forums needs to be corrected: > > GIMP-2.10 does *NOT* produce correct editing results in color spaces > other than sRGB. Neither does GIMP-2.99. > > Editing in AdobeRGB, ProPhotoRGB, Rec2020, etc WILL produce *wrong* > results for many operations, and unless you are thoroughly conversant > with the underlying code, or else have a way to compare results with a > properly color-managed editing application, you don't have any way to > know what's right and what's wrong. It's best to stick with editing only > in GIMP's built-in sRGB color spaces. > > The same is true if you are using GIMP-2.99: Some things that don't work > in GIMP-2.10, do work in GIMP-2.99. Other things that actually do work > in GIMP-2.10, don't work in GIMP-2.99. > > About two years ago major changes were made in babl and additional > changes were made in GIMP-2.99, messing up stuff that still works in > GIMP-2.10. For awhile progress was being made in GIMP-2.99 on extending > the arena of "what actually works", some of which progress is from bug > reports I filed and in some cases helped to fix - it seems nobody else > was testing the new code to see what actually did work. > > I was able to write code that fixed some of the bugs I reported for > GIMP-2.99 color management. But once I reached the point where further > coding requirements exceeded my coding ability, progress simply stopped, > with everyone else saying "some day" proper color management for GIMP > would be a priority. I began to feel like the best way to make sure a > bug would never get fixed, was to have the dreaded "Concepts: Color > Science" tag attached to it. > > Since autumm of 2013 I've been participating in GIMP development, mostly > in the area of color management (editing in color spaces other than > sRGB) and color science (making sure GIMP code produces correct results > for things like layer blend modes, Curves and Levels, AutoStretch, > Luminance, and so on; and adding code for things like LCh color pickers > and blend modes). > > Participating in GIMP development used to be challenging and enjoyable. > But over the last couple of years my interest in and patience with the > slow pace of progress regarding GIMP color management have dwindled to > the point of disappearing altogether. > > If someone else feels like helping with GIMP color management and color > science, here's a list of still-open bug reports that I reported after > the migration to gitlab, most of which have to do with color > management/color science: > > > https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues?scope=all=%E2%9C%93=opened_username=ellestone > > Here are bugs that I opened before the migration to gitlab: > > https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues?scope=all=%E2%9C%93=opened_username=bugzilla-migration=ellestone > > The most important color management bugs still open from before the > migration to gitlab are these: > > * Replace hard-coded sRGB parameters to allow editing in other RGB > working spaces (opened 6 years ago): > https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues/594 - in some ways this bug > is obsolete as current GIMP color management issues are less about > actual hard-coded values and more about a lack of any way to convey the > required "not sRGB" color space information to various sections of code > that need this information. > > * Decomposed to LAB images have the wrong ICC profile assigned (opened 4 > years ago): https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues/883 > > * Address various limitations of LCMS soft proofing (opened 4 years > ago): https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues/976 > the > and hoping very much that GIMP will find new developers that them a lot > of energy and some interest and expertise in color management and color > science. > * Support for high bit depth RGB (and LCH?) color palettes for painting > (opened 2 years ago): https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues/1328 > > Similar searchs in https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gegl/ and > https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/babl/ will turn up a few additional color > management issues. > > Best of luck to all, > So it feels like you are saying goodbye. If so I hope it's only a temporary one and you'd be back if we get more active on the color management side. We will, we definitely will, because it's a major part of what GIMP 3 is supposed to be about anyway. I personally have a high theoretical interest on this topic, but not a practical one unfortunately (because we work in sRGB), which is why it is both high in priority for me (because we need it for GIMP 3) and low (compared to what we actually do day to day with GIMP). I have always been hoping that Mitch and Ell would be back soon as they are much better suited than me to decide on these topics anyway IMO. These are actually very intimidating topics. I do understand them (or so I believe), when scratching the head very hard, but I feel much
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP-2.10 and GIMP2.99 are still sRGB-only image editors
On Sat, 2021-02-06 at 18:35 -0500, Christopher Curtis via gimp- developer-list wrote: > On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 7:17 PM Liam Quin wrote: > > Maybe the right conversation to have is, how can we get some more > > programmers to spend their free time on GIMP. > > And I'm not astroturfing Discord: there are free software > alternatives that > can be self-hosted. I general we're not likely to move to anything that isn't libre (and not just open source for that matter). But the days of IRC are probably numbered, XKCD notwithstanding :) -- ankh - web slave for https://www.fromoldbooks.org/ ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP-2.10 and GIMP2.99 are still sRGB-only image editors
On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 7:17 PM Liam Quin wrote: Maybe the right conversation to have is, how can we get some more > programmers to spend their free time on GIMP. > On this topic, I would like to suggest that people consider using a tool like Discord. It is reasonably popular (ie: easy to use) and has plugins that can connect to the current IRC channels. Where I think it provides more value (besides not requiring an IRC client or archie server), is its support for voice channels, and limited (low-quality) screen/video sharing. It is far, far, simpler at times to hop onto an audio channel and explain ideas or share a screen to see what people are talking about than to try to turn that into prose. GIMP is complex and its development requires study. Reducing this friction can only make things easier. Often, the hardest part is just getting started and building a base of "functional newbies" through easy on-ramping can kick off blog posts and all that other good developer supporting material. And I'm not astroturfing Discord: there are free software alternatives that can be self-hosted. I've found it to be a useful tool when text chat keeps missing the point and pastebin is just too much to bother with. It seems like an easy thing to trial if people are willing to use it, but be under no delusion that it is a panacea: I think it may just be a bit better. Chris ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP-2.10 and GIMP2.99 are still sRGB-only image editors
On Fri, Feb 5, 2021 at 3:00 AM Elle Stone wrote: > Participating in GIMP development used to be challenging and enjoyable. > But over the last couple of years my interest in and patience with the > slow pace of progress regarding GIMP color management have dwindled to > the point of disappearing altogether. Two years ago we had three active developers hacking on GIMP like there was no tomorrow. We lost one of them entirely, it seems, and another one is mostly preoccupied with family business, so we are down to one active developer and a few new active contributors. We are also approaching the end of very long and tiresome work on refactoring which is not done yet. Also, a lot of time of that one active developer was spent figuring out ways to make development of GIMP sustainable (no details at this point in time, sorry). So yes, there are several critical areas where help is needed. Color management is clearly one of them. I guess if you adjust your expectations accordingly, you will see that there is no acting in bad faith here. Alex ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] GIMP-2.10 and GIMP2.99 are still sRGB-only image editors
On Thu, 2021-02-04 at 18:59 -0500, Elle Stone wrote: > > GIMP-2.10 does *NOT* produce correct editing results in color spaces > other than sRGB. Neither does GIMP-2.99. For sure you also get a dramatically bad result if you export as png of jpeg from 32-bit images. But convert to 8-bit first and it's OK. So clearly there's work to be done. It might be that the attention Web browser makers are currently giving to other colourspaces, wider gamut, and higher bit depth, will drive demand - and, we can hope, lead to increased resources for GIMP too. There are other areas where GIMP needs work, too - one of my own interests is in text and better openType support for example - so we are both in the same position in that that's more we'd like to see than we can do. In my case i'm slowly doing experiments, but no patches (yet?). In your case you're well ahead of me but the patches are very hard to review, because colour management is so specialized. Maybe the right conversation to have is, how can we get some more programmers to spend their free time on GIMP. [replying only to gimp-developer list, not user list as well] -- Liam Quin - web slave for https://www.fromoldbooks.org/ Full-time slave in voluntary servitude ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
[Gimp-developer] GIMP-2.10 and GIMP2.99 are still sRGB-only image editors
A misconception I keep seeing on various forums needs to be corrected: GIMP-2.10 does *NOT* produce correct editing results in color spaces other than sRGB. Neither does GIMP-2.99. Editing in AdobeRGB, ProPhotoRGB, Rec2020, etc WILL produce *wrong* results for many operations, and unless you are thoroughly conversant with the underlying code, or else have a way to compare results with a properly color-managed editing application, you don't have any way to know what's right and what's wrong. It's best to stick with editing only in GIMP's built-in sRGB color spaces. The same is true if you are using GIMP-2.99: Some things that don't work in GIMP-2.10, do work in GIMP-2.99. Other things that actually do work in GIMP-2.10, don't work in GIMP-2.99. About two years ago major changes were made in babl and additional changes were made in GIMP-2.99, messing up stuff that still works in GIMP-2.10. For awhile progress was being made in GIMP-2.99 on extending the arena of "what actually works", some of which progress is from bug reports I filed and in some cases helped to fix - it seems nobody else was testing the new code to see what actually did work. I was able to write code that fixed some of the bugs I reported for GIMP-2.99 color management. But once I reached the point where further coding requirements exceeded my coding ability, progress simply stopped, with everyone else saying "some day" proper color management for GIMP would be a priority. I began to feel like the best way to make sure a bug would never get fixed, was to have the dreaded "Concepts: Color Science" tag attached to it. Since autumm of 2013 I've been participating in GIMP development, mostly in the area of color management (editing in color spaces other than sRGB) and color science (making sure GIMP code produces correct results for things like layer blend modes, Curves and Levels, AutoStretch, Luminance, and so on; and adding code for things like LCh color pickers and blend modes). Participating in GIMP development used to be challenging and enjoyable. But over the last couple of years my interest in and patience with the slow pace of progress regarding GIMP color management have dwindled to the point of disappearing altogether. If someone else feels like helping with GIMP color management and color science, here's a list of still-open bug reports that I reported after the migration to gitlab, most of which have to do with color management/color science: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues?scope=all=%E2%9C%93=opened_username=ellestone Here are bugs that I opened before the migration to gitlab: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues?scope=all=%E2%9C%93=opened_username=bugzilla-migration=ellestone The most important color management bugs still open from before the migration to gitlab are these: * Replace hard-coded sRGB parameters to allow editing in other RGB working spaces (opened 6 years ago): https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues/594 - in some ways this bug is obsolete as current GIMP color management issues are less about actual hard-coded values and more about a lack of any way to convey the required "not sRGB" color space information to various sections of code that need this information. * Decomposed to LAB images have the wrong ICC profile assigned (opened 4 years ago): https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues/883 * Address various limitations of LCMS soft proofing (opened 4 years ago): https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues/976 the and hoping very much that GIMP will find new developers that them a lot of energy and some interest and expertise in color management and color science. * Support for high bit depth RGB (and LCH?) color palettes for painting (opened 2 years ago): https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues/1328 Similar searchs in https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gegl/ and https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/babl/ will turn up a few additional color management issues. Best of luck to all, Elle Stone -- https://ninedegreesbelow.com Color management and free/libre photography ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
