Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
On 2009-09-06, photocomix for...@gimpusers.com wrote: Zoom tool only modifies the view... is that non destructive enough? Not enough. (Did you mean that you do not care about what magnification an image is shown at?) The point was not if you (or somebody else) care about magnification an image is shown : the point is that operation is absolutely not destructive ..nothing change in the imagine not the size not a single pixel This can hardly be true, since unwanted zooming is very destructive. My (assumingly carefully designed) workspace is no more. I cannot imagine something less destructive except that a button with no functions at all, except that to provide the pleasure to click safety on something, but without fear or risk of consequences I assume you have never heard about image being panned by mouse?! While are excellent image viewer/converter (as example for Windows Xnview and Irfanview )that integrate very well in the gimp workflow. Irfanview is - in many respects - horrible. It won't keep position when zooming. There is no convenient way to tune brightness/gamma. I do not see a simple way to make pressing `2' go to 1/2 zoom. Just to list a few... Hope this helps, Ilya ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
On 2009-09-06, David Gowers 00a...@gmail.com wrote: However, when the program explicitly states its purpose http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision You will need to explain how your request is relevant to that vision in order to have any likelihood of having your proposition accepted. Does not this remind you again the we know that we know better adage? And sorry, but when I read these scrapbooks, I get very strong suspicion that they are written by the same people who claim that GIMP is better than Photoshop :-(... [But I do not think that this list is the best place to discuss these notes... Is it?] Am I so special? Do other edit-not-create people use different workflow? I just drag with the middle mouse button, or the stylus button, to pan, myself. ... omitting the fact that 50% of computers do not have a middle button, 99% of the rest have a wiggling worm (specially designed to make dragging much less reliable) instead a middle button. (And I heard that a portable stylus costs about the same as the computer it is connected to... How many are sold? 10?) (or I use the navigation view (icon in the bottom right corner of the image view) ... to use which one needs to hunt first a teeny-weeny square with a mouse, which works in the reversed direction, with non-intuitive magnification factor (and any interruption of dragging forces one to hunt the starting point again...). If I mainly edited, rather than having a fairly even balance of edit vs create, I would probably set the Zoom tool as the default Would not then accidental clicking ruin your zoom ratio? (or possibly the Measure tool). [Never used it myself. Might be a good non-tool. But having a useful for-something tool would be much more useful, would not it? ;-] I might even make the cursor keys scroll the display rather than adjusting opacity etc. In Emacs, where I use about 5 or 6 different granularities for navigation with cursor keys (char/word/sexp/enclosing-sexp/sentence), I somehow manage to remember the strength ordering of modifier keys. (As in Alt=Meta is stronger than Ctrl, and Alt-Ctrl=Meta-Ctrl is yet stronger ). However, in picture viewing environments it does not come naturally - I never remember which key makes what kind of movement (px/10px/0.1viewport/viewport/to-the-end). (Maybe because the natural unit of movement in editor - 1char - is the minimal of possible movements, while for viewing 0.1viewport is much more natural binding for Left/Right/Up/Down keys?) So I find panning by keyboard non-intuitive. (Unless I want go-to-the-end, which is, obviously, on the strongest amplifier Ctrl-Meta=Ctrl-Alt.) Yours, Ilya ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
On 2009-09-04, GSR - FR fam...@infernal-iceberg.com wrote: The first thing I do when entering GIMP is switching to the eyepicker (or is is dropper? ;-) tool. But it is not non-destructive enough; and it is useless as a default tool. Zoom tool only modifies the view... is that non destructive enough? Not enough. (Did you mean that you do not care about what magnification an image is shown at?) Ilya ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
[Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
Zoom tool only modifies the view... is that non destructive enough? Not enough. (Did you mean that you do not care about what magnification an image is shown at?) The point was not if you (or somebody else) care about magnification an image is shown : the point is that operation is absolutely not destructive ..nothing change in the imagine not the size not a single pixel I cannot imagine something less destructive except that a button with no functions at all, except that to provide the pleasure to click safety on something, but without fear or risk of consequences Then i really love use SW in ways not Imagined by the developers But the use of gimp as Image viewer WAS imagined,even attempted by few and most agree that Use gimp as Image viewer will be a PITA While are excellent image viewer/converter (as example for Windows Xnview and Irfanview )that integrate very well in the gimp workflow. Then if you prefer try to use as Image Viewer you may well do, but without pretending that is a new original and creative idea Is original as use a knife as was a screwdriver For me Gimp used as image viewer is even worse then a knife used as screwdriver -- photocomix (via www.gimpusers.com) ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
It seems that the whole preceding thread is focused on the wrong point. The initial writers want a non-tool because they want to click on the image window without doing anything. But why do they want to click it? Certainly only for giving it the focus. That means that they are doing it the wrong way, even if they are doing this all the time. With a decent window manager, you have the option to give the focus to a window as soon as the mouse pointer is above it. With any window manager, you can focus on a given window by clicking on its title bar, or by using some key combination like Alt-TAB. Use one of these possibilities, make it an automatic action, and you will never again need to click anywhere on a window without wanting to do something there. -- Olivier Lecarme ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
On 2009-09-04, Chris Mohler cr33...@gmail.com wrote: I find it annoying that there appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools. I am confused by this feature request. The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package. Wrong. GIMP is a package for whatever the *USER* decides it is going to use GIMP for. And an absence of a convenient non-destructive tool is a major misfeature. Gnu Image *Manipulation* Program http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/manipulate If you want to use GIMP as a display program that's fine - but you're using the wrong tool for the job... Uh-oh! I see I was not clear enough - but I thought it must have been quite obvious... So let me try again: Why should *A USER* care how some #...@% *named* a tool? Why should *A USER* care what *another* user supposes is a correct tool for the job? (Assume that the first user has considered the suggestion, appreciated the suggestion, and decided to discard it. ;-) [*] As my software experience goes, if one writes a good program, users will ALWAYS find some uses for it the designers had no idea about. This is, in essense, my second law of human-software interaction: the combined intelligence of users of a good piece of software is always higher than one of its designers. OTOH, having a shortcut like 'h' for the hand/panning tool would be fine with me - I would use it. Good - as far as it is assignable to the default. But `h' is taken for Heal, I believe... Yours, Ilya P.S. [*] Myself, I do not use GIMP to CREATE graphics. I use it to fix existing images. I'm a slow thinker; before I decide HOW would I want to fix a particular photo, I investigate all the details I can think of. So, while my *intent* is to manipulate an image, THE FIRST things I always do are to use GIMP as a viewer. It might be the reason why I consider the default=panning-tool so useful. Am I so special? Do other edit-not-create people use different workflow? ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 12:05 PM, Ilya Zakharevichnospam-ab...@ilyaz.org wrote: Why should *A USER* care how some #...@% *named* a tool? Why should *A USER* care what *another* user supposes is a correct tool for the job? (Assume that the first user has considered the suggestion, appreciated the suggestion, and decided to discard it. ;-) [*] They shouldn't necessarily, indeed, using a tool in new ways can be very helpful and informative. However, when the program explicitly states its purpose http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision You will need to explain how your request is relevant to that vision in order to have any likelihood of having your proposition accepted. P.S. [*] Myself, I do not use GIMP to CREATE graphics. I use it to fix existing images. I'm a slow thinker; before I decide HOW would I want to fix a particular photo, I investigate all the details I can think of. So, while my *intent* is to manipulate an image, THE FIRST things I always do are to use GIMP as a viewer. It might be the reason why I consider the default=panning-tool so useful. Am I so special? Do other edit-not-create people use different workflow? I just drag with the middle mouse button, or the stylus button, to pan, myself. (or I use the navigation view (icon in the bottom right corner of the image view) If I mainly edited, rather than having a fairly even balance of edit vs create, I would probably set the Zoom tool as the default (or possibly the Measure tool). I might even make the cursor keys scroll the display rather than adjusting opacity etc. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
On 2009-08-28, Greg Chapman gregtu...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I find it annoying that there appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools. I am confused by this feature request. The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package. Wrong. GIMP is a package for whatever the *USER* decides it is going to use GIMP for. And an absence of a convenient non-destructive tool is a major misfeature. The first thing I do when entering GIMP is switching to the eyepicker (or is is dropper? ;-) tool. But it is not non-destructive enough; and it is useless as a default tool. For me, a possibility to have a Panning tool as the default would make my life much more useful (one which behaves as mid-mouse-drag). A few mouses around have a middle button. And SPACE-panning is useless if the focus is not on the picture window... Hope this helps, Ilya ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Ilya Zakharevichnospam-ab...@ilyaz.org wrote: On 2009-08-28, Greg Chapman gregtu...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I find it annoying that there appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools. I am confused by this feature request. The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package. Wrong. GIMP is a package for whatever the *USER* decides it is going to use GIMP for. And an absence of a convenient non-destructive tool is a major misfeature. Gnu Image *Manipulation* Program http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/manipulate If you want to use GIMP as a display program that's fine - but you're using the wrong tool for the job... OTOH, having a shortcut like 'h' for the hand/panning tool would be fine with me - I would use it. Chris ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
On 04 Sep 09 07:27 Ilya Zakharevich nospam-ab...@ilyaz.org said: The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package. Wrong. GIMP is a package for whatever the *USER* decides it is going to use GIMP for. And an absence of a convenient non-destructive tool is a major misfeature. Well, that's a bit like complaining that your text editor lacks formatting tools because you want to use it as a word processor. The GIMP's author's certainly didn't set out to make it the ideal image viewing software and you shouldn't complain if it doesn't do a job it wasn't designed to do. Having said that, I am surprised that I can't find a way of to select my choice of default tool on start up. Greg Chapman http://www.gregtutor.plus.com Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
On Fri, 2009-09-04 at 21:16 +0100, Greg Chapman wrote: On 04 Sep 09 07:27 Ilya Zakharevich nospam-ab...@ilyaz.org said: The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package. Wrong. GIMP is a package for whatever the *USER* decides it is going to use GIMP for. And an absence of a convenient non-destructive tool is a major misfeature. Well, that's a bit like complaining that your text editor lacks formatting tools because you want to use it as a word processor. The GIMP's author's certainly didn't set out to make it the ideal image viewing software and you shouldn't complain if it doesn't do a job it wasn't designed to do. Having said that, I am surprised that I can't find a way of to select my choice of default tool on start up. Click Save the Tool Options Now in the tool options. The currently selected tool will be selected the next time GIMP starts. Jon Cosby ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
On 09/04/2009 08:27 AM, Ilya Zakharevich wrote: On 2009-08-28, Greg Chapman gregtu...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: I find it annoying that there appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools. I am confused by this feature request. The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package. Wrong. GIMP is a package for whatever the *USER* decides it is going to use GIMP for. And an absence of a convenient non-destructive tool is a major misfeature. Whether the absence of such a tool is a misfeature has to be argued from a product vision [1] perspective. That is, if having such a tool would help us fulfill our product vision, we should add it. / Martin [1] http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/GIMP_UI_Redesign#product_vision -- My GIMP Blog (new post 0 days ago): http://www.chromecode.com/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
Hi, nospam-ab...@ilyaz.org (2009-09-04 at 0627.39 +): The first thing I do when entering GIMP is switching to the eyepicker (or is is dropper? ;-) tool. But it is not non-destructive enough; and it is useless as a default tool. Zoom tool only modifies the view... is that non destructive enough? GSR ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
[Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
As a very new user of the Gimp, I find it annoying that there appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools. I am thinking of a package like Inscape, where the default is that when loaded no tool is selected and one has to make a selection before anything happens. Is there such a tool in the Gimp? If there is, please will someone tell me how to select it, 'cos I just cannot find it? Regards from New Zealand on a very pleasant Saturday morning. Zed -- zed ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
Hi Zed, On 28 Aug 09 23:58 zed z...@zed.net.nz said: I find it annoying that there appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools. I am confused by this feature request. The GIMP is an image editing package not an image display package. Therefore, by definition, you will always need some tool turned on in order to start work. Why turn everything off? If the default tool available on startup is not the one you want then you just click to change it. What's the difference between this and starting with no tool selected and clicking it to start? At no point will you ever want to turn off ALL tools. The only time you'd want to do that is when you want to quit the program, and then you might as well quit the program, why turn it into a two stage quit the tool then quit the program process? Effectively, this is the same question that new users often ask, How do I stop the pointer change shape? The answer is by stopping moving the pointer. In other words, stopping work! It reflects a total lack of undestanding of one of the main functions of the pointer. It's telling you what will happen if you click or drag with the current tool selected. It's a warning that you may need to change tools, or a confirmation that the intended thing will happen as you click or drag. Greg Chapman http://www.gregtutor.plus.com Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
Greg Chapman gregtu...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: Hi Zed, On 28 Aug 09 23:58 zed z...@zed.net.nz said: I find it annoying that there appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools. [snipped but read and absorbed] Effectively, this is the same question that new users often ask, How do I stop the pointer change shape? The answer is by stopping moving the pointer. In other words, stopping work! It reflects a total lack of understanding of one of the main functions of the pointer. It's telling you what will happen if you click or drag with the current tool selected. It's a warning that you may need to change tools, or a confirmation that the intended thing will happen as you click or drag. You are absolutely correct, Greg, it is my lack of understanding which lead to the question. That, together with the fact that at the start a tool is selected and I click on the image and wonder what has happened and how I change it.. Don't worry, I will train my brain to be more logical. Put it down to the fact that I'm well past my use by date and trying to take on board new concepts is becoming a tad challenging. Regards Zed -- zed ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
On Saturday 29 August 2009 08:15:11 zed wrote: That, together with the fact that at the start a tool is selected and I click on the image and wonder what has happened and how I change it.. i had the same problem when i started using gimp. not used to the shape and meaning of pointers, i was wondering what might happen if i clicked somewhere on the open image. quick way to choose an inoffensive tool that doesn't change anything inadvertantly is hitting e on the keyboard, activating the ellypse selection tool, or r for rectangle selection. and if you happen to do something you didn't want to, there's always ctrl-z to undo whatever you did... phani. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] A non-tool selection...
On 08/29/2009 12:58 AM, zed wrote: As a very new user of the Gimp, I find it annoying that there appears to be no selection tool that turns off all tools. I am thinking of a package like Inscape, where the default is that when loaded no tool is selected and one has to make a selection before anything happens. Is there such a tool in the Gimp? If there is, please will someone tell me how to select it, 'cos I just cannot find it? There currently isn't, but the transform tool will be pretty similar to the default Inkscape tool: http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Transformation_tool_specification / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
