Re: [Gimp-user] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!
I’m a GIMP user. I haven’t written code since the days of WATFOR. So whatfor all this kerfluffll? I don’t care if it’s a mailing list (I can deal with ancient technology. I’m a retired geologist. Banging two rocks together is old school, but we still do it.) Mailing lists are fine. So are more modern things … like color monitors. I really don’t give a rodent’s derriere. If I need help, I want help. If someone else needs help I can give, I give it. In neither case do I care what format it takes, as long as I can read it and they can read it. The fact is that people resist change. They don’t want to get out of their comfortable rut. I understand and sympathize. However, change is inevitable, and this is not change for its own sake. If the folks writing GIMP’s code are fine with it, that’s all I need to know. Change and adaptation are life. Anything else is death. Change happens. Adapt. Overcome. Or die. Having nearly done the latter three times, not counting near misses, I choose the two former. This debate is … absurd. Let’s get back to creating, whether it’s code or some other art form. Ross > On Oct 23, 2022, at 6:21 PM, Liam R E Quin wrote: > > On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 21:59 +0800, Bret Busby via gimp-user-list wrote: >> >> The ending of support for gnome products, especially for The GIMP and >> for gedit, is disappointing, > > It is untrue. There is no ending of support. > > The mailing list is moving to Discourse, yes. You can interact with > Discourse using email. > > IRC, Discord, Mastodon, Twitter, continue to exist. > > Gitlab issues continue to exist. There's even an official Facebook > page. > > liam (demib0y / ankh) > > -- > Liam Quin - delightfulcomputing.com > Cancer gofundme https://www.gofundme.com/f/5u9v7-every-little-helps > Vintage pictures & texts https://www.fromoldbooks.org/ > ___ > gimp-user-list mailing list > List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org > List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list > List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!
On Tue, 2022-10-25 at 21:28 -0500, Ross Martinek wrote: > This debate is … absurd. Hi, have you already signed up? A lot of users tested Discourse. I'm one of them. Note, you can only send a request, if you reach "Level 1". It's not absurd to fight gamification. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamification I'm absolutely not a mentally immobile dino. I way more often fight for changes. In this case there are several reasons to fight against this step into the wrong direction. One reason is, that it does split the community to gains absolutely nothing. Btw. I'm using a major distro, that is a real rolling release, following upstream as close as possible. It's approach isn't user-friendliness, it does follow the user-centric approach. IOW I'm used to software changes and I make my homework on my own. Arch Linux migrated from Mailman 2, to Mailman 3, see https://lists.archlinux.org/mailman3/lists/arch-general.lists.archlinux.org/ --> "Postorius Documentation" [ https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/postorius/en/latest/ ] Requirements Postorius requires Python 3.7+. The minimum Django version is 3.2. Postorius needs a running version of GNU Mailman version 3.3.5." "https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/hyperkitty/en/latest/ Why HyperKitty? Mailman is in need for replacement of its default Pipermail archiver. It is over 10 years old, users’ expectations have changed and their requirements are more sophisticated than the current archiver can deliver on. Mailman3 is the currently under active development and it offers a pluggable architecture where multiple archivers can be plugged to the core without too much pain. Some of the drawbacks of Pipermail : It does not support stable URLs. It has scalability issues (it was not suitable for organizations working with hundred of thousand of messages per day, e.g, Launchpad) The web interface is dated and does not output standards-compliant HTML nor does it take advantage of new technologies such as AJAX. The HyperKitty archiver addresses most of the drawbacks of Pipermail." That the GNOME foundation spread untruth related to Mailman is already a reason to fight back! Regards, Ralf ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!
On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 1:50 AM Ralf Mardorf via gimp-user-list wrote: > If no new mailing lists will be available, I seriously doubt that a lot > of the Midnight Commander or of the Evolution mailing list subscribes > are willing to use Discourse in the future, let alone Twitter or > similar. Some might use IRC, other community members will be lost > forever. It might be different for Gimp or Gedit mailing list > subscribers. However, those used to command line, ncurses or ncurses > alike approaches and/or mail user agents will less likely be much > attracted by Discourse, Twitter and Co. Touche', Ralf, well said! ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!
> a lot of the Evolution mailing list members, including myself, > tested the mailing list ability of Discourse. I was not allowed to > start a new thread by email, because my gamification level was 0. > You are allowed to start a new thread by email, after you reached > level 1. This is not the only annoyance. Discourse GNOME has got no > real mailing list ability. Given that mc is a GNU project, why not using the most natural site, `gnu.org`, for a mailing list? An additional bonus is that the gnu.org mailing list archives come with a nice – and working! – search interface. Wwerner ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 19:21 -0400, Liam R E Quin wrote: > The mailing list is moving to Discourse, yes. You can interact with > Discourse using email. Hi, a lot of the Evolution mailing list members, including myself, tested the mailing list ability of Discourse. I was not allowed to start a new thread by email, because my gamification level was 0. You are allowed to start a new thread by email, after you reached level 1. This is not the only annoyance. Discourse GNOME has got no real mailing list ability. > IRC, Discord, Mastodon, Twitter, continue to exist. IRC is as good as a mailing list, but no replacement for a mailing list and a mailing list is no replacement for IRC. Both are very good, but fit different needs. I'm not per se against forums, but a forum is per se less good than a mailing list. I'm completely against forums using gamification to fool the subscribers. Twitter and similar unsocial networks are hell! If no new mailing lists will be available, I seriously doubt that a lot of the Midnight Commander or of the Evolution mailing list subscribes are willing to use Discourse in the future, let alone Twitter or similar. Some might use IRC, other community members will be lost forever. It might be different for Gimp or Gedit mailing list subscribers. However, those used to command line, ncurses or ncurses alike approaches and/or mail user agents will less likely be much attracted by Discourse, Twitter and Co. Regards, Ralf ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!
On Sun, Oct 23, 2022 at 08:19:05AM +0200, Ralf Mardorf via gimp-user-list wrote: > Hi, > > it's possible to replace almost all GNOME software by software that is > more or less identically. > > For example gedit can easily be replaced by pluma or even better by xed. > However, replacing GIMP is not that straightforward as replacing an > editor. > > When the user interface of GIMP became more and more annoying and its > JPG export became freakish, I replaced GIMP by Krita a long time ago. In > the beging using Krita was frustrating, but on the long run this step > has proven its worth. Related to the mailing list issue, there isn't > really a good user mailing list for Krita, but at least there is one. > The list is https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kimageshop . > > IMO it's important to fight back when leading projects don't care about > the user base anymore. Dropping the mailing list after a Vogon-ish > announcement is not the first thing the GNOME project does to harms the > FLOSS community. > Ralf, I have found your comments on another list which I occasionally read to usually be relevant. But this sounds like trolling: "Give up gimp and move to kde". I have no great love for most gnome applications, but I can still build gimp (on my xfce system) without many dependencies. Compare that to kde (specifically, kf5) where a metric shed-load of packages need to be installed. I typically build development (temporary) desktop systems every couple of months, and the churn needed for building kf5 is unmanageable. I'm sorry to see this list go, but when I need help I'll either post on pixels.us (most of my gimp usage is for photo-manipulation) or subscribe to https://discourse.gnome.org/ ĸen -- Greater love hath no woman for the premiership than to lay down the life of her bosom friend in an attempt to save her own skin. -- Andrew Rawnsley ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!
On Sun, 2022-10-23 at 21:59 +0800, Bret Busby via gimp-user-list wrote: > > The ending of support for gnome products, especially for The GIMP and > for gedit, is disappointing, It is untrue. There is no ending of support. The mailing list is moving to Discourse, yes. You can interact with Discourse using email. IRC, Discord, Mastodon, Twitter, continue to exist. Gitlab issues continue to exist. There's even an official Facebook page. liam (demib0y / ankh) -- Liam Quin - delightfulcomputing.com Cancer gofundme https://www.gofundme.com/f/5u9v7-every-little-helps Vintage pictures & texts https://www.fromoldbooks.org/ ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
Re: [Gimp-user] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!
On 23/10/2022, Ralf Mardorf via gimp-user-list wrote: > Hi, > > it's possible to replace almost all GNOME software by software that is > more or less identically. > > For example gedit can easily be replaced by pluma or even better by xed. > However, replacing GIMP is not that straightforward as replacing an > editor. > > When the user interface of GIMP became more and more annoying and its > JPG export became freakish, I replaced GIMP by Krita a long time ago. In > the beging using Krita was frustrating, but on the long run this step > has proven its worth. Related to the mailing list issue, there isn't > really a good user mailing list for Krita, but at least there is one. > The list is https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kimageshop . > > IMO it's important to fight back when leading projects don't care about > the user base anymore. Dropping the mailing list after a Vogon-ish > announcement is not the first thing the GNOME project does to harms the > FLOSS community. > > Btw. the Evolution user community tested using Discourse GNOME as a > mailing list replacement, see > https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/thread.html > . It's disgusting, Discourse GNOME is completely unsuitable as a mailman > replacement. Unfortunately Evolution can't be replaced. I tested almost > all FLOSS MUAs. > > The alternative to replacing apps such as Gimp and Evolution by other > apps, are mailing lists run by the user base. However non-official > mailing lists competing with official support channels are a PITA. > > Regards, > Ralf The ending of support for gnome products, especially for The GIMP and for gedit, is disappointing, but, I suppose that it is just the culmination of the campaign of contempt by the gnomes, against users, that started with the replacement of gnome2, with gnome3. Sometimes, however, users with enough determination, can provide their own support to each other (for as long as a software application remains usable, and, does not need to be abandoned, as the gnome desktop environment had to be abandoned, when the hostile gnome3 was imposed by putin's mates). So, alternative users support mailing lists, could, and, should, be considered for establishment and use, as the gnomes are withdrawing support for the gnome products, as, like putin, an armageddon threat. -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia (UTC+0800) .. ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
[Gimp-user] [rebellion attempt] Fight back!
Hi, it's possible to replace almost all GNOME software by software that is more or less identically. For example gedit can easily be replaced by pluma or even better by xed. However, replacing GIMP is not that straightforward as replacing an editor. When the user interface of GIMP became more and more annoying and its JPG export became freakish, I replaced GIMP by Krita a long time ago. In the beging using Krita was frustrating, but on the long run this step has proven its worth. Related to the mailing list issue, there isn't really a good user mailing list for Krita, but at least there is one. The list is https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kimageshop . IMO it's important to fight back when leading projects don't care about the user base anymore. Dropping the mailing list after a Vogon-ish announcement is not the first thing the GNOME project does to harms the FLOSS community. Btw. the Evolution user community tested using Discourse GNOME as a mailing list replacement, see https://mail.gnome.org/archives/evolution-list/2022-October/thread.html . It's disgusting, Discourse GNOME is completely unsuitable as a mailman replacement. Unfortunately Evolution can't be replaced. I tested almost all FLOSS MUAs. The alternative to replacing apps such as Gimp and Evolution by other apps, are mailing lists run by the user base. However non-official mailing lists competing with official support channels are a PITA. Regards, Ralf ___ gimp-user-list mailing list List address:gimp-user-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-user-list
