virtual email
I've just finished setting up a test email system for my website customers, but I'm not very happy with it, I'm interested in any suggesstions for improvement, but I also have specific areas that are major annoyances, and I think there has to be a better way.. I'd like them to be able to have as many email addresses on their domain(s) as they choose ( within reason, I have code to limit this already ) I don't want to add any additional users to the system ( as in /etc/passwd ) I had written some mod_perl stuff and a bunch of crons on the old email system that mucked about with system users, and aliases, and the virtusers table to accomplish the same thing, but it's pretty ugly, and probably not very secure. So I'm trying to get away from adding system users for email accounts, and from dealing with a lot of different files when adding/changing/deleting email users. my current setup uses Postfix for MTA, Courier for pop3/imap, and sqWebMail for web based email sending/checking. sqWebMail and Courier are setup to use a Postgres table for authentication, and to determine where the users mailbox is. I'm using Maildir mailbox format, this is required by sqwebmail and Courier. Postfix, however, uses the aliases table to determine where a virtual users mailbox is. so I have this information in 2 separate places, which need to match. has anyone successfully gotten Postfix to play nicely with Postgres for aliases? is it a stable solution? is there some doc on doing this somewhere? this prevents having to write to aliases, and run newaliases, and postfix reload after every change, in addition to updating the database. ( and no, using MySQL which is supported by postfix natively is not an option ) would I be correct in saying that changing the info in this database would not require a postfix reload for it to take effect ? the virtual user mailboxes are in /home/mail/$user I had to set perms 777 in order to get Postfix to deliver mail there, I'm not happy about that . I tried various owner/group combos including nobody.nobody and postfix.postfix, none worked without 777. the docs I've read either don't cover this issue or I'm just not seeing it. I'm guessing it's because the given user has no login, therefore the local delivery agent cant su to that user ? am I stuck with wide open perms then ? how can I find out who the local delivery agent runs as? should I be using an MDA instead ? would it be easier ? which one ? ( it has to support Maildir ) lastly, I'm surprised there isn't a simpler solution for accomplishing this, or is there, and I just haven't seen it ? - Bryan * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: write protected Zip disks
> Yes. You need a special program, called "ziptool", to do so. > Google for it. And if you already have xforms libs installed there's a GUI program called jazip that can do it too. ccb * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: ssh and security
Hi Peter, Peter Beardsley wrote: > > Feb 12 20:00:37 xxx sshd(pam_unix)[18540]: authentication failure; > logname= uid=0 euid=0 tty=ssh ruser= rhost=216.72.153.69 > user=xx > Feb 12 20:00:55 xxx sshd(pam_unix)[18540]: 2 more authentication > failures; logname= uid=0 euid=0 tty=ssh ruser= rhost=216.72 > .153.69 user=xx The good news is that according to this, thay didn't get in. Personally, I would 1) make sure that all r* services are disabled, 2) don't use passwords, use public/private keypairs, 3) make sure you are up to date on all OpenSSH patches. > Where the user in question was a user that was being used to ssh into > this machine remotely, and the IP traces back to a Venezualean ISP. So > somehow s/he got the username. Has anyone seen anything like this > before? BTW I require ssh v2 connections. I see it all the time. Usernames are usually fairly easy to guess especially on a mailserver if it's sendmail and VRFY and EXPN are enabled. Check your mail logs for a lot of 550's, then check the IP address against recent spam. Anything that wasn't rejected and returned to the sender is a potential username on a box running SSH *and* a mail server. Also, if you own the domain name of the box, a simple whois will turn up several potential usernames. There are litterally hundreds of ways to get usernames. In theory. So I've heard ;-) > I've read a little here and > there about "monkey in the middle" attacks on ssh, but don't you have to > be on the same subnet? Nah They just have to be able to intercept your traffic, rebroadcast modified packets, then intercept the return traffic and modify that before rebroadcasting it. But it isn't an easy task. Besides, man-in-the-middle attacks usually involve an attempt at session-hijacking (also not an easy task), not a direct login attempt. C-Ya, Kenny -- --- Kenneth E. Lussier Geek by nature, Linux by choice PGP KeyID C0D2BA57 Public key http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xC0D2BA57 * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
I hear you on the non-i386 side. My firewall for three years was an 300MHz Alphait's good to know that even if they do break in somehow, they won't have any idea what to do next (just try and use that precompiled rootkit!). Unfortunatly the 3Com ISDN modem decided it was time to check out of this world and the Ascend was just the right price, otherwise the Alpha would still be doing that job today. --rdp On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Tom Buskey wrote: > > When I 1st got my cable modem 2 years ago, they didn't have those nice > little NAT/routers. I recommend them to others. I've seen them with > print servers & 802.11b wireless. > > But I had a PC (p166) that I could use. And lots of extra NIC cards. > I went to a web site (linux-firewalls.com?) that spit out an ipchains > (or ipfw that preceeded ipchains?) script. It worked well enough. > > Someone at work was a NetBSD commiter & convinced me to try it. So I > did. It's been very nice too. I'm not tempted to put X & other apps > on it ;-) I find ipfilter easier to understand then ipchains. > iptables is pretty good too. > > Then work had some sparcs they wanted to get rid of. So I got one > (with 2 nics) and put NetBSD on it. I copied /etc from the PC, changed > the MAC on the sun & I was going. Now I could use my PC for other > things. > > I also have some macintosh 68k machines with 2 nics cards that I'm > eyeing for NetBSD. I wish I could swap architectures that easily with > linux. I'm also glad that I can use ipfilter & know that if I upgrade > the OS, I don't have to rewrite my rules (ipfw/ipchains/iptables). > > I also like the fact that I have a non-standard OS without a familiar > 386 CPU in it. And being able to SSH into it to check logs, dump files > from work, and allow others to have accounts. > > If I had the $$, I'd love to get an embedded CPU thing that uses less > power, but for now, the sparc is working pretty well. > > (hoping I don't get shot for talking up NetBSD on a Linux list :-) My > laptop runs Mandrake 8.1 btw. > -- Rich Payne http://talisman.mv.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
When I 1st got my cable modem 2 years ago, they didn't have those nice little NAT/routers. I recommend them to others. I've seen them with print servers & 802.11b wireless. But I had a PC (p166) that I could use. And lots of extra NIC cards. I went to a web site (linux-firewalls.com?) that spit out an ipchains (or ipfw that preceeded ipchains?) script. It worked well enough. Someone at work was a NetBSD commiter & convinced me to try it. So I did. It's been very nice too. I'm not tempted to put X & other apps on it ;-) I find ipfilter easier to understand then ipchains. iptables is pretty good too. Then work had some sparcs they wanted to get rid of. So I got one (with 2 nics) and put NetBSD on it. I copied /etc from the PC, changed the MAC on the sun & I was going. Now I could use my PC for other things. I also have some macintosh 68k machines with 2 nics cards that I'm eyeing for NetBSD. I wish I could swap architectures that easily with linux. I'm also glad that I can use ipfilter & know that if I upgrade the OS, I don't have to rewrite my rules (ipfw/ipchains/iptables). I also like the fact that I have a non-standard OS without a familiar 386 CPU in it. And being able to SSH into it to check logs, dump files from work, and allow others to have accounts. If I had the $$, I'd love to get an embedded CPU thing that uses less power, but for now, the sparc is working pretty well. (hoping I don't get shot for talking up NetBSD on a Linux list :-) My laptop runs Mandrake 8.1 btw. -- --- Tom Buskey * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: huge backup
There's an app called backuponcd. Look for it on http://freshmeat.net. It will backup directly to CD or to .iso files. Tom Rauschenbach said: > > > >This has got to be on topic. It's about a Linux machine in New Hampshire! > >I have a filesystem that is 39389776 1k blocks. Obviously too big to back up >on a single CD. I'd like to cut it up into separate file systems that can be >backed up on CD. > >Does anyone know of a clever/fast/convenient way to do this ? I'm quite >capable of writing the scripts to to do it (and I'll donate them to the list >if I have to write them) but surely someone has already done this. > >TIA > >TomR > > >* >To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. >* > -- --- Tom Buskey * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Rich C wrote: > > I thought just about everyone did this. :) I was going to build a Linux > router, until I found my SMC unit: a router/firewall/DHCP server/4-port > switch that uses hardly any power, is always on so I don't have to be > powered up any more to get the rest of the family on the net, and it clones > my NIC address to boot, so I didn't even have to call AT&T/Mediaone to > update my MAC address/hostname. All for the low low price of $69.00. Much as > I would have enjoyed building a Linux router, I really couldn't justify it. Yes, however you are (I feel) missing a very important point. If you have an SMC/Linksys etc...box doing the job then Yes, that probably is a bit better than Windows Internet Sharing (and company). However you are still at the mecry of company X to provide with an update when they feel it's time for them to do so. I'm not bashing any of the companies that produce these products in particular, but your really not in any better a situation then with an other closed system solution. > Not to mention the fact that to keep secure, I just have to go get firmware > updates periodically. No more staying up late worrying if my self-configured > router had a hole in it somewhere. (Well I never actually did this but you > get the point.) Yes, I do see your point, however if the later keeps you up at nights, then the thought of the undiscovered security hole, or worse yet the recently discovered secutiry hole for which the vendor hasn't supplied a patch you stop you from sleeping all together. Of course, having said all of that, I use a Ascend ISDN router to access the internet.a product from a company that doesn't exist anymore. You want to talk about being kept up at night? --rdp -- Rich Payne http://talisman.mv.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: ssh and security
On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Peter Beardsley wrote: > Feb 12 20:00:37 xxx sshd(pam_unix)[18540]: authentication failure; > logname= uid=0 euid=0 tty=ssh ruser= rhost=216.72.153.69 > user=xx [...] > So somehow s/he got the username. User names are often not that hard to find out. According to the log you post, they did not succeed in authenticating (logging in), so they did not have a suitable password. If your passwords are good, you should be reasonably safe. > BTW I require ssh v2 connections. Make sure you've got the latest-and-greatest version of OpenSSH installed (3.x something). Require strong ciphers. Disable anything that even mentions "rhosts". For maximum security, disable password authentication and require public/private keys. > I've read a little here and there about "monkey in the middle" attacks on > ssh, but don't you have to be on the same subnet? All that is required for a man-in-the-middle attack is that the attacker be in a position to intercept and replace communications in both directions. Being on the same subnet as one of the parties may or may not enable this. A good explanation (complete with diagram) of the concept of a man-in-the-middle attack can be found on this webpage: http://www.sm.luth.se/csee/courses/smd/102/lek5/lek5.html Here is another, specifically about SSH: http://www.vandyke.com/solutions/ssh_overview/ssh_overview_threats.html -- Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: write protected Zip disks
On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Tom Rauschenbach wrote: > Does anybody know if Linux an toggle the write protection of Zip disks ? Yes. You need a special program, called "ziptool", to do so. Google for it. > Does it matter if they are ext2 instead of DOS ? No. It functions at the device level, not the filesystem level. -- Ben Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not | | necessarily represent the views or policy of any other person, entity or | | organization. All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Change of email account
I just un-subscribed my old email from gnhlug from : [EMAIL PROTECTED] and re-subscribed with the new adddress: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I received the email confirm for the re-subscribe, but not for the un-subscribe... JFeole * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: huge backup
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At some point hitherto, Tom Rauschenbach hath spake thusly: > I have a filesystem that is 39389776 1k blocks. Obviously too big to back up > on a single CD. I'd like to cut it up into separate file systems that can be > backed up on CD. > > Does anyone know of a clever/fast/convenient way to do this? Well, what you're asking can't be done without actually copying the data onto those other (pre-existing) filesystems that you're talking about, but the good news is it doesn't need to be, at least if I understand you correctly. Presumably, you have a bunch of directories under the filesystem, such as in my /usr/local partition: drwxrwsr-x5 ddm ddm 512 Feb 9 05:46 Download/ drwxr-xr-x2 root root 224 Oct 6 02:16 bin/ drwxr-xr-x3 root root 72 Sep 7 07:47 doc/ drwxr-xr-x2 root root 104 Sep 7 07:47 etc/ drwxr-xr-x2 root root 48 Feb 6 1996 games/ drwxr-xr-x2 root root 48 Feb 6 1996 info/ drwxr-xr-x5 root root 376 Sep 27 23:59 lib/ drwxr-xr-x 12 root root 288 Sep 6 18:16 man/ drwxr-xr-x3 root root 72 Sep 22 02:21 netscape/ drwxr-xr-x2 root root 48 Feb 6 1996 sbin/ drwxr-xr-x3 root root 72 Sep 7 07:47 share/ drwxrwsr-x7 root ddm 256 Feb 9 04:42 src/ You now want to make some, or all of these into their own filesystems, in order to make them all fit on a CD. So, why not just create ISO images of those directories that you intend to make into their own filesystem? To illustrate what I mean, if you had the disk space to store the ISOs, you could do this: cd $root_dir_of_filesystem for dir in `ls`; do cd $dir mkisofs -o $fs_with_enough_space_to_hold_the_images/$dir.iso . done If you actually can get away with making one ISO per directory, then since this IS your back-up, there isn't really any need to break the filesystem down to make smaller ones. Obviously, you'll probably want to use various options for mkisofs, such as those that let you use long filenames, etc... but you get the idea. For example, the command line I usually use for mkisofs is this: mkisofs -v -r -l -J -T -o ../CD_Images/disc.iso . I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out what all the options do (since I don't remember what they do anyway). :) If you only want to make seperate filesystems out of a few of the directories though, say bin, sbin, and share, and then leave the rest of them all in one filesystem, it's a little bit more complicated. But not too much so. First, make your ISOs of the filesystems you want to split. As with any backup, once you've done this, you should check to make sure the data is intact. In this case, it's extremely important that you do this, because you're about to delete the data you just backed up! Once the ISOs are done cooking onto a CD, and you've taken the time to verify them, DELETE THE DIRECTORIES YOU BACKED UP. This will leave you with only the data that you want in your one final filesystem remaining on the disk. Now make another ISO out of this data, and verify it too. All that's left is for you to run (c)fdisk to repartition the filesystem into enough partitions to make the necessary number of filesystems, then run mkfs on them, and lay the data that you just backed up onto them. The easiest way to do that is to mount the filesystems where they should go, then mount the CD that you made last, and use tar to copy the filesystem into its new location. Then mount the other CDs in succession and do the same thing. That's it! - -- Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG! GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8awnZdjdlQoHP510RAvHtAJ9kQjcgOhxcAONupEQs+Hld9gR30ACgkMve gtnAoTx505ujXxqXR7UY8q4= =G5Rz -END PGP SIGNATURE- * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
write protected Zip disks
Does anybody know if Linux an toggle the write protection of Zip disks ? Does it matter if they are ext2 instead of DOS ? TIA TomR * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
On Wednesday 13 February 2002 18:43, you wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Tom Rauschenbach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "GNHLUG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 6:20 PM > Subject: Re: linux/windows security > > > On Wednesday 13 February 2002 17:30, you wrote: > > > In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:48:57 EST > > > > > > "Thomas M. Albright" said: > > > >> What home user needs their machine up for 100 days straight? > > > > > > > >I do. My home is networked. To get onto the internet everyyone goes > > > >through 192.168.0.1. If that machine is turned off, there is no > > internet > > > > >avilable. > > > > This is so common a situation that you can now get IP MASQ appliances > > that > > do > > > this for you so that instead of having a dedicated Linux > > firewall/router/mutliplexer Win users can have a reliable machine provide > > MASQing (and I hear they use a lot less power). > > I thought just about everyone did this. :) I was going to build a Linux > router, until I found my SMC unit: a router/firewall/DHCP server/4-port > switch that uses hardly any power, is always on so I don't have to be > powered up any more to get the rest of the family on the net, and it clones > my NIC address to boot, so I didn't even have to call AT&T/Mediaone to > update my MAC address/hostname. All for the low low price of $69.00. Much > as I would have enjoyed building a Linux router, I really couldn't justify > it. > > Not to mention the fact that to keep secure, I just have to go get firmware > updates periodically. No more staying up late worrying if my > self-configured router had a hole in it somewhere. (Well I never actually > did this but you get the point.) I did it the hard way because I did not know about these appliances. I do worry if my self configured machine has holes, although I shouldn't worry. I know it does. But it monitors itself and I learn a lot. It's probably less useful, but much more fun. I also get to play with things like ad blockers, net sniffers, IDSs and stuff. I suspect that the MASQ appliances don't offer that kind of feature richness. Of course that richness benefits attackers as well. We all make trade offs. > > Rich Cloutier > President, C*O > SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES > www.sysupport.com > > > > * > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. > * * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At some point hitherto, Rich C hath spake thusly: > What is needed in a help system is something like what VMS had, but for > subject keywords like backup, restore, copy, directory, and stuff like that. > The help system doesn't really have to do much more than reference the > proper command to use, and say "Oh, you want to copy something? Well, if > it's just a file or two, see "cp." If it's an entire directory structure, > see "tar." If you want to copy a partition or disk, see "dd." Then the man > page can take over. Linux has many examples of such help systems... They're called "books" and you can get it for $40 at your local Barnes & Noble. I named several examples of such help systems in earlier posts. And in most cases, they actually come with Linux on a CD insert. So you don't even need to pay extra for someone else's boxed set. And, as I also said, Red Hat has pretty good manuals that cover most of what is being discussed here, including where to get more help if needed. If you buy the boxed set, you get printed copies. If you don't, they are (or at least always were) on the install CD. Whaddaya want for nothing? Seriously... In my experience, NO ONE likes writing extensive documentation, unless they're getting paid to do it. If you want professional quality documentation for your FREE operating system, you're going to have to pay for it. I really don't think that's so unreasonable. I think it's unlikely that anyone will ever spend time on such a project, because there are already numerous voluminous references available. The free software community generally works on things when it perceives a need for them, and given all that is already available in print, and on linuxdoc.org, much of which also typically ships with the distro CDs, I just don't see this happening. The documentation whose absence everyone is complaining about DOES already exist. You just need to know where to find it, and/or be willing to shell out your $40 at the book store. As for finding it, that's why groups like this exist. When did the idea of reading books become so offensive? Hell, you can probably get some of these books at your local library, and not have to fork over the $40 to own it. I will also note that I believe the real problem is that people are trying to install Linux on their system before they really spend any time investigating how to do it, and what the options are. You should already have the appropriate documentation, and read through some of it, before you ever boot the install CD. It's like buying a VCR was back 15 years ago, before anyone had seen them... or any other new technology for that matter. Yes, you can figure out how to make it work by tinkering with it, but you'll probably get really frustrated a number of times, and miss out on a whole bunch of features it has, spend way more time on it that way, than you would have if you'd just taken the time to read the manual first... Would you plan a trip to another country before investigating what there is to do and where there is to stay? The automobile analogy applies here too... you don't go out and buy a car, get your license to drive, and THEN start learning how. You learn how first, then you do it. Why is installing Linux so different for people then? If you investigate your installation options before installing for the first time, you'll find out that you don't have to wipe out your Windows partition, and so when you have a problem getting stuff to work you can just reboot into Windows, and look at docs on-line. Print out anything you think you might need, and then have another go at fixing your Linux problems. Another thought that has occured to me is that what newbies really want is for Linux to be just like that other thing they are accustomed to (whatever it might be). Well, it isn't. And it never will be. That's the point. If you don't want to take the time to learn something new, then really Linux isn't for you. And that's ok. As is often the case with Linux, the horse that is being flogged to death here is a perception/awareness/mindset problem, not one of genuine lacking. Linux is what it is; if you want to use it successfully, and you're not familiar with it, you're probably going to have to be willing to think differently about it than you've thought about other operating systems. But the answers are all there already, for the most part. - -- Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG! GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8awPydjdlQoHP510RAn5kAKC0KExCM081wfG29z5D6F1GKHA/AwCgvm76 7Iz6ebOXLd6/p3h2jT8Db9E= =eQoW -END PGP SIGNATURE- ***
Re: linux/windows security
On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, Tom Rauschenbach wrote: > On Wednesday 13 February 2002 17:30, you wrote: > > In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:48:57 EST > > > > "Thomas M. Albright" said: > > >> What home user needs their machine up for 100 days straight? > > > > > >I do. My home is networked. To get onto the internet everyyone goes > > >through 192.168.0.1. If that machine is turned off, there is no internet > > >avilable. > > This is so common a situation that you can now get IP MASQ appliances that do > this for you so that instead of having a dedicated Linux > firewall/router/mutliplexer Win users can have a reliable machine provide > MASQing (and I hear they use a lot less power). Or you can bring me an old 486, a small HD, and 2 NICs, and I'll build you a firewall/router. What's more, if you're a newbie, I'll remote admin it for you until you get up to speed, too. One of the best features of Linux, IMHO, is how it can give new life to systems that M$ would tell you are merely useful as doorstops now. -- Bill Mullen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Feb 13, 2002 * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
huge backup
This has got to be on topic. It's about a Linux machine in New Hampshire! I have a filesystem that is 39389776 1k blocks. Obviously too big to back up on a single CD. I'd like to cut it up into separate file systems that can be backed up on CD. Does anyone know of a clever/fast/convenient way to do this ? I'm quite capable of writing the scripts to to do it (and I'll donate them to the list if I have to write them) but surely someone has already done this. TIA TomR * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
On Wed, 13 Feb 2002, RABNUD wrote: > > At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: > > >I''ll toss around ideas with anyone, or walk them through an install or > >whatever ... but I won''t make it sound easy. It isn''t. But it''s > >doable, and it can become easier. It''s just more different than they > >expected - because it''s better. :)< > > All this resistance to creating a cli based help/educate/rescue document > browser? Never mind, I like the GUI idea better where is that Win98 > install CD. All this resistance to actually opening a book or asking for help before tackling a task in a completely unfamiliar environment? I can see you on Christmas Eve, fussing and cussing deep into the night while steadfastly refusing to look at the directions for the bike you're assembling ... "Why doesn't this part tell me where it goes?" "It can't possibly need all these gears, can it?" ... :) -- Bill Mullen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Feb 13, 2002 * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
- Original Message - From: "Tom Rauschenbach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "GNHLUG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 6:20 PM Subject: Re: linux/windows security > On Wednesday 13 February 2002 17:30, you wrote: > > In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:48:57 EST > > > > "Thomas M. Albright" said: > > >> What home user needs their machine up for 100 days straight? > > > > > >I do. My home is networked. To get onto the internet everyyone goes > > >through 192.168.0.1. If that machine is turned off, there is no internet > > >avilable. > > This is so common a situation that you can now get IP MASQ appliances that do > this for you so that instead of having a dedicated Linux > firewall/router/mutliplexer Win users can have a reliable machine provide > MASQing (and I hear they use a lot less power). > I thought just about everyone did this. :) I was going to build a Linux router, until I found my SMC unit: a router/firewall/DHCP server/4-port switch that uses hardly any power, is always on so I don't have to be powered up any more to get the rest of the family on the net, and it clones my NIC address to boot, so I didn't even have to call AT&T/Mediaone to update my MAC address/hostname. All for the low low price of $69.00. Much as I would have enjoyed building a Linux router, I really couldn't justify it. Not to mention the fact that to keep secure, I just have to go get firmware updates periodically. No more staying up late worrying if my self-configured router had a hole in it somewhere. (Well I never actually did this but you get the point.) Rich Cloutier President, C*O SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES www.sysupport.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
- Original Message - From: "Ken D'Ambrosio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Rich C" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "GNHLUG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:53 PM Subject: Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org > On Wed, 2002-02-13 at 17:45, Rich C wrote: > > > Right, the man pages are a reference work. That's the way I have always > > considered them. You don't start reading the reference section of a > > programmers manual to learn a new language, do you? Of course not. Man pages > > are NOT a help system. For the CLI, there IS NO HELP SYSTEM. It's as simple > > as that. > > Okay, I'll bite: VMS's help was good, but it wasn't like it was amazing > or anything. Fairly often, I had to hit the proverbial "documentation > wall": that stack o' VMS manuals that took up a whole damn table. If > man pages == "NO HELP SYSTEM", then what *WOULD* you consider a help > system? I know that MS's "help", as convenient as it may be to hit F1, > rarely helps me... whereas man pages usually do, and almost always point > me in the right direction -- something that MS rarely does. Bottom > line: what do you want for help? An AI assistant to help you with > everything? If so, I've got some bad news for you... > You're right, VMS's help system wasn't amazing. The thing that VMS had going for it IMO is that it had, in addition to the help system, mostly "english word" commands. You could do help, see a list of commands, get a pretty good idea of which one you were looking for (COPY did copying, DIRectory did a directory, BACKUP did backups.) From there you could drill down to what you wanted. With UNIX, even if you got a list of commands, which one does backups? "tar"? how is a newbie supposed to know that? (So then why doesn't "feather" do restores?) What is needed in a help system is something like what VMS had, but for subject keywords like backup, restore, copy, directory, and stuff like that. The help system doesn't really have to do much more than reference the proper command to use, and say "Oh, you want to copy something? Well, if it's just a file or two, see "cp." If it's an entire directory structure, see "tar." If you want to copy a partition or disk, see "dd." Then the man page can take over. Rich Cloutier President, C*O SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES www.sysupport.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
On Wednesday 13 February 2002 17:30, you wrote: > In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:48:57 EST > > "Thomas M. Albright" said: > >> What home user needs their machine up for 100 days straight? > > > >I do. My home is networked. To get onto the internet everyyone goes > >through 192.168.0.1. If that machine is turned off, there is no internet > >avilable. This is so common a situation that you can now get IP MASQ appliances that do this for you so that instead of having a dedicated Linux firewall/router/mutliplexer Win users can have a reliable machine provide MASQing (and I hear they use a lot less power). > > Me too, I need to get to my home machine from work a lot of the time. > When I'm away on business, I ssh into my home machine from across the 'net. > > I don't ever want my system offline, I'm too impatient to wait for it > to boot when I am there, and I can't be there to boot if I'm some > where else! The only solution is to have it always on! > > > * > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. > * * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Greg Kettmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Mansur, Warren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Ray Bowles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Bruce Dawson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:19 PM Subject: Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org > > In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:48:49 EST > Greg Kettmann said: > > >Sorry to pipe in, but I must. The fact is that the learning / use curve of > >Linux, particularly compared to Windows, is very high. > > Yes, that's absolutely true. But look at the reason why! What were > they each designed to do? > > Windows designed from the outset to be a SINGLE user system > primarily for office suite use. Every other use of > Windows is a side benefit or add-on usage. > > UNIX designed from the outset to be a multi-tasking, > multi-user SERVER that can do ANYTHING. > Yes but so was VMS, and as someone else mentioned, they had an excellent help system. The two are not mutually exclusive. It's just that VMS was developed in a structured environment, whereas Linux was not? What does this mean? It simply proves the point that programmers don't like to do documentation. :oP > By nature you ought to expect UNIX and by extension, Linux, to be > more complicated. UNIX was never meant to be a desktop OS, it was > designed in the days before anyone could ever conceive of such a > thing! > > >They often lack real world examples as well. > > Keep in mind, 'man' stands for 'manual', which is short for > "Reference Manual" Show me any reference manual which contains a > variety of real world examples. Does Gray's Anatomy have a "real > world example" of how to remove a kidney? No, it's a reference, > that's it, plain and simple. You want real world examples, you get a > HOWTO book with pictures and explanations. Right, the man pages are a reference work. That's the way I have always considered them. You don't start reading the reference section of a programmers manual to learn a new language, do you? Of course not. Man pages are NOT a help system. For the CLI, there IS NO HELP SYSTEM. It's as simple as that. [snip rest of stuff I don't care to comment on] Rich Cloutier President, C*O SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES www.sysupport.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: (OT) email
In a message dated: 12 Feb 2002 22:58:46 EST "R. Sean Hartnett" said: >I need to get an email address that I can reach for school purposes for >a few months. >Can anyone recommend any free email service somewhere that is not one of >the big spam outfits? > >Mediaone does not always seem to be available to reach from the >"outside" of late. Yahoo does a pretty good job, and the allow pop access, so you can use fetchmail. It's free, and I don't get a lot of spam to that address because I don't post a lot to lists with it. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 22:48:57 EST "Thomas M. Albright" said: >> What home user needs their machine up for 100 days straight? >I do. My home is networked. To get onto the internet everyyone goes >through 192.168.0.1. If that machine is turned off, there is no internet >avilable. Me too, I need to get to my home machine from work a lot of the time. When I'm away on business, I ssh into my home machine from across the 'net. I don't ever want my system offline, I'm too impatient to wait for it to boot when I am there, and I can't be there to boot if I'm some where else! The only solution is to have it always on! * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Sun Announcement
In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 21:27:41 EST Rich Payne said: >What? Linux was mirrored on Solaris? You can easily go back and forth? >After having admined both for the last three years I can attest that >nothing is further from the truth! > >I don't know what drugs they are taking over at Sun, but I wish they would >share! Yeah, I have to agree with that sentiment too Rich. I've admin'ed Sun for most of my career, and I've done a bit of Linux admin here and there as well. While they do share some common ideas, I think it's pretty safe to say that Linux was most definitely NOT based on Solaris :) I would really like my share of that crack they're smoking! -- Seeya, Paul * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:48:49 EST Greg Kettmann said: >Sorry to pipe in, but I must. The fact is that the learning / use curve of >Linux, particularly compared to Windows, is very high. Yes, that's absolutely true. But look at the reason why! What were they each designed to do? Windows designed from the outset to be a SINGLE user system primarily for office suite use. Every other use of Windows is a side benefit or add-on usage. UNIXdesigned from the outset to be a multi-tasking, multi-user SERVER that can do ANYTHING. By nature you ought to expect UNIX and by extension, Linux, to be more complicated. UNIX was never meant to be a desktop OS, it was designed in the days before anyone could ever conceive of such a thing! >They often lack real world examples as well. Keep in mind, 'man' stands for 'manual', which is short for "Reference Manual" Show me any reference manual which contains a variety of real world examples. Does Gray's Anatomy have a "real world example" of how to remove a kidney? No, it's a reference, that's it, plain and simple. You want real world examples, you get a HOWTO book with pictures and explanations. > This can be very imposing to the new user. They're not meant for the new user, they're meant for someone who knows what they're doing, but needs a quick reference. >The response "well they obviously didn't read the man man" is just plain >stupid and completely misses the point Why? The point was if they had read the man man page it clearly explains HOW to read man pages. Had they done this, they would clearly have understood that all the options to tar that were confusing them were in fact *all* the OPTIONS to tar. Their problem directly stemmed from the fact that they didn't know HOW to read a man page, and if they had read the man man page they would now know how! Once you know HOW to read the man pages, they suddenly become your best friend, and you suddenly realize you don't need to ask a lot of questions, because ultimately, the answers are right there waiting for you. Until you learn how to read them though, you're doomed to a life of confusion and frustration. >the how-to's in the LDP". The point is the average newbie doesn't have a >clue about these things. That's the definition of a newbie. And that's why this list exists. Newbies come to us, and we help explain. Sure, a lot of times we'll get questions and we'll answer with "read the man page". A lot of people take exception to that answer, but IMO, there's nothing wrong with it. If you're not willing to learn, then why are you here and why are you trying to use Linux? Most of the time reading the man page will solve your problem. And you know, the funny thing is, I've never seen someone go away, read the man page, come back, say, "Okay, RTFM'ed and still don't get it!" and not end up getting helped. Never! That's the learning experience in action. Prove you're willing to try and we'll kill ourselves trying to help you. I can't count the number of times I've seen people submit scripts for some one that I know weren't whipped up in 20 seconds. Many of us have spent hours and hours of either our own time or even our employers time trying to help newbies. But we won't lift a finger if the person doesn't prove themselves worthy of that time and effort. We "experts" didn't get to be experts because it was easy, we got to be experts because we persevered. If a "newbie" wants to become an expert, they will have to persevere as well. >Now, conversely I'm not suggesting that these newbies become instant >sysadmins. Absolutely there is a place, and a need, for people and >documentation for those well versed in Linux. So, I understand where those >with a great deal of experience are coming from. However, I've got twenty >books here. See that's the problem. You have 20 books. Why do you have 20 books? What are they all on? What do you need to know that requires 20 books? You know how many books I have on Linux System administration? 1. That's it. 1 small, concise book. I have lots of other books, but none of them are critical to the administration of the system. I have books on apache, probably 8 or so on perl, a few on C, 3 on Samba, and who knows what else. You know how many I ever look at on even a monthly basis? None of them. Every now and then I'll pull one down if I have a question on a specific subject matter, but for sysadmin stuff, I have 1. And that's all you need too. >I'm only a casual user of Linux and I don't use it day in and >day out but I use it as often as I can. Maybe you should use it more? Way back when someone told me I needed to use Emacs. I tried to use Emacs but couldn't figure it out. I would use 'vi' for almost everything, and when I had a spare moment, I'd try to use
Re: Newbie article...
In a message dated: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:37:41 EST Bill Sconce said: >Truly so. And the man pages have no index; Why do people keep saying this? Has no one ever used 'whatis', 'apropos', or 'man -k'? What more of an index do you need? I'm not trying to be a pain the butt, condescending, or arrogant, but everything you need for the most part is there in the man pages. If those don't do it for you, there are countless books out there, many of them on-line via the web, and almost as many on the very installation CDs for your distro (all viewable under ANY OS ). It's already been stated that Linux, as a UNIX variant, is not Windows or MacOS. It's not the good old days of DOS 2.0 where there were only a dozen or so commands. This is a real, live, honest to goodness, muti-tasking, mutli-user operating systems which has been developed over a period of 30 YEARS! How can anyone realisticly expect to wrap their head around all of that in a short period of time? I'm sorry, it can't be done. I feel your pain as a newbie or neophyte, or novice, or newcomer to Linux. But if don't want the thrill and excitement of constant learning and mastery of an OS, then don't use it, it's that simple. The media and a lot of individuals keep asking "Doesn't Linux *want* to own the desktop? Don't they *want* people to use their system?", etc. Well let me break this you, we don't really care whether you do or not. If you do, great, we'll help you. If don't, great, have a nice life with your other OS and we'll see you around. See, for many of us, Linux already owns the only desktop that matters, our own. And much past that, we don't care. We're not out to conquer the world and beat Microsoft (contrary to what the media says), we're out to get a job done. That's it, end of story. Linux helps us get that job done, whatever it is, better than Microsoft does. So, the reason you find Linux, or any UNIX variant difficult to master is because is it is. It's a complex, convoluted, contradictory amalgamation of ideas, theories, and experiments, often times gone horribly awry. It's the absolute worst environment there is for computing, except for all the rest. And we love it! Thanks, I'm done ranting now :) -- Seeya, Paul * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: This list is only accessed by a box which can surf, a crashed box usually requires expert skill to surf - you got that far... But lets not lose track of the goal because step 2 fails... we need only 2 more steps!! Where does this concept fail Is it off by megabytes or off by gigabytes? I''m thinking a few megabytes gets even X back to going, and as newbies expect reinstallation (as would I), then the megabytes of "X resurrecting documents" reduces to a few k bytes of "backup/restore/ reinstall branching". That means we need to consider whether it would be better to teach us newbies (via the help/rescue/educate gizmo) how to backup critical config documents (to floppy) first, then teach us to rescue the crashed box based on restoring those dreaded backups. Yup, thats within *nix'' ability. And... that kind of help could take place without much effort on the help/rescue mechanism, surely! Admittedly, it requires diligence on the part of the newbie to even backup anything in the first place. but it might actually work! Making a tar or gzip of key config files, then saving them to floppies what a concept!!! First lesson in rescuing via backups would thus be to, um drive the point home when the newbie rescues their crashed OS on the very first restore! The help/rescue/educate mechanism whets their appetite with a few easy lessons in teaching them tarring or bzipping skills at the cli. I really like it! Good Idea! What would you suggest next?? Don''t let me scare you away!! I''ll trust a forum once more ;-) Gotta run. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: >what is it exactly that you want to learn NEXT?I can tell you how I got started with Linux. I was taking Unix System Administrationadministering Unix-like systems, Linux included, hasn''t really changed all that much on a fundamental level, in the 30 years it''s been around.< And for the last 8 years, this (and other M$) newbie has seen only GUI, and only from M$. *nix vs M$ is 2 vastly different worlds, and admin is not allowed over there. Newbies do not know they need to read about something like this. Get my suggested help structure working teach us at the CLI, use brain dead launch commands... load a document, then first teach CLI skills, then load another document, teach rescue skills, then backup, then... All at a minimal kernel, floppy based level. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
I think you're missing the point. There are always people around to help out in a crisis (this list is a perfect example). If your system is crashed and you are a newbie, you're probably going to have to get an expert to help. I don't think that you will find that, for example, X will always crash for a single reason or that even reinstalling it will necessarily solve what is wrong. Therefore, even a command line "help/educate/rescue document browser" probably won't be the sort of help you seem to belive it to be because it would have to contain an IMMENSE amount of information that the new user would have to sift through, and then we're back to the "man tar" example - too much information. I just think premise behind your proposal has flaws, sorry. -Mike- --- RABNUD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: > > >I''ll toss around ideas with anyone, or walk them through an install or > whatever ... but I won''t make it sound easy. It isn''t. But it''s > doable, and it can become easier. It''s just more different than they > expected - because it''s better. :)< > > All this resistance to creating a cli based help/educate/rescue document > browser? Never mind, I like the GUI idea better where is that Win98 > install CD. = Michael Costolo - This New England email is brought to you by the letter "R." __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: Getting warmer! * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: Ah! thats fine, I just got confused since the 2 LUGs webpages share a common GUI. Fortunately, I had registered here/there (where am I??) a few weeks ago, so I could also reply *there*. BTW: Newbies would know the difference between the 2 sites? Would not be confused by the common GUI? Would know that they had even switched sites??? One Logo is the whole visual difference! The things I gotta do to make the world safe and friendly for my beloved fellow newbies. LOL!! * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
I am just getting caught up on my Email and while I *was* going to just keep reading this thread, I decided to jump in... Ray Bowles wrote: > [... deleted ...] > > I have to disagree and without naming names I know Linux users that will > swear by WinXP and MS's latest development suite. Myself > included. Although I still prefer emacs for C development. > > > product that won't crash every 30 minutes on a fair number of > > configurations. Their operating system crashes often and takes all > > your work with it, even under virtually zero load. Linux systems > > NOT TRUE I LEAVE MY XP SYSTEM ON FOR AT LEAST A WEEK AT A TIME. I know of one family which has to reboot their M$ system every time they do one of: - run AOL (pig that it is) or netscrape - run a game - run a word processor package (M$ or wordperfect) - leave system running more than a couple hours - even with no activity... h... Usually this amounts up to a half dozen or more reboots a day, some within a half hour of each other! Granted it's not XP, but then again after what I have heard about XP I'm not sure I will _ever_ use/install it. My standard response to almost any inquiry about the system is "the system is hosed - reboot it"... > > > rarely, if ever encounter such problems. And the best part is, you > > have to PAY Microsoft for the priviledge of having their products > > destroy your work for you. Linux is FREE. > > True and a very nice part of the OS. My Debian box has been up just shy > of 100 days now and although that's unbelievable, What home user needs > their machine up for 100 days straight? Anyone running a server (Email, web, etc.) _OR_ anyone who merely wants their system to be running, ready to use NOW whenever they get up, get home, etc... I thought that was the whole idea behind CableModems, DSL lines, etc., was that the PC would stay up and online like "the systems at work". > > > I used to like Windows. Honestly. My experience working with it is > > what turned me off to it. That, and numerous experiences where > > installing a new piece of software trashed my system completely. Such > > stories about Windows and related products are numerous all over the > > Internet and amongst people you know... I have never heard such a > > story about anyone using a Linux system, excepting: > > I'm not trying to be a d1ck but I can remember more than one LAN party > where you spent most of the evening not playing be cause your linux box > wouldn't run right. While all the windows boxes ran fine (but I'm sure > there were problems there once in a while). LAN party - yup, those always come off right away don't they... NOT While I didn't get to play with punch cards, I cut my teeth on a Comodore64, fell in love with Dos (man that floppy was great compared to a cassette), hoped DR-Dos utils would make the mainstream, tripped into Windows and VMS, fell flat on my face with DomainOS and HP-UX, cursed at Solaris, tripped back into M$ (3.1 & NT), and somewhere along the line fell in love with Linux. I have gone the "get a piece here and there off the web" to build my linux system to installing off a RedHat CD. I've played with Slackware, Debian, and Red Hat (even have a Red Hat CD with Linus' autograph). After all this I can tell you one thing: I HAVE HAD ENOUGH EXPERIECE TO KNOW WHAT IS GOOD AND WHAT IS CRAP - AND THE REASON I REFUSE TO USE M$ IS THE FACT EVERYTIME I AM FORCED TO USE IT, I FIND IT IS STILL A PIECE OF...!!! Man, it felt good to get that off my chest, but really, I find the M$ style editors suck, the reliability is poor (I can BSOD NT in our lab just about as easily as I can reboot it), and the windowing environment is just plain lacking when compared with what I can do in X... As an example, I wanted to set up a dual-NIC NT in the lab to support an emulator and keep MIS happy by not having the emulator traffic on the production network. Something which should have been easy (and is under Linux) turned into a nightmare under NT. > > This just provesmy point. Both OS's have issues and until Every Linux > distro is easy enough for my mother to install and is also completely > error free Microsoft has earned a place in the market and deserves > it. However in the meantime we can enjoy the many benits of Linux as well. Shall I tell you how many times I've been FORCED to RE-install M$ on my home system??? Shall I tell you how totally clueless most people are feeling after the 3rd (5th, ...) time the install wants you to reboot for some asinine reason??? Personally, I have found the Linux install to be a piece of cake when compared to M$. > > > You can not blame Linux for either of these cases. They are human > > failures, not software failures. And in those instances, the same is > > Not true. well written software no matter the platform WILL compensate for > user error. while it's almost imposible to do so it should always be a > goal. A
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: >I''ll toss around ideas with anyone, or walk them through an install or whatever ... but I won''t make it sound easy. It isn''t. But it''s doable, and it can become easier. It''s just more different than they expected - because it''s better. :)< All this resistance to creating a cli based help/educate/rescue document browser? Never mind, I like the GUI idea better where is that Win98 install CD. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
RABNUD wrote: > > A minimal system should still provide help for a newbie The first time I surreptitiously sat down at a VMS screen, the only command I could think to type was 'help'. And the response was so complete that I instantly fell in love. Theretofore my experience with online assistants had been with those afforded by NOS and a lobotomised PDP-15. -- #kenP-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Golux.Com/coar/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ "Millennium hand and shrimp!" * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: >They''ve worked great for over 30 yearsAt one time I was a newbie and didn''t have a clue about Unix, but I got through by reading man pages, asking questions on mailing lists and usenet, and surfing the web.< And behind you there was a functional (not crashed) system!!! The common home desktop PC user has a crashed box when they need help!! These people are GUI only, and when the GUI is down, or the Internet access is trashed, what next? M$ says: Reinstall me!! * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: Try launching a cli email client when you don''t know one exists, try connecting to a POP3 server when you think POP is a drink, try printing email messages when the xserver is down and you never printed from a DOS prompt most M$ people I know can''t run a cli. A minimal system should still provide help for a newbie, IMHO, but diffing anf grepping are learned skills; the wet-behind-the-ears newbie shouldn''t need to already know that when he needs help for the first crash. Yes, you can expect them to remember a certain directory (ahem "Folder") and a certain command Helpcrashed. Something which tells them if you have crashed X, load this document (doc name here) and there you read: to reinstall X, you type: tar -xzvf X.3_22.tar Whatever - I''m a newbie.. Then the user drops to a cli or switches terminals and tar -xzvf X.3_22.tar and he watches the gears spin. Psst: (whisper) they just learned something and quietly gained confidence in the cli aspect of Linux . * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: Installed Linuxes >40 times. Success (relative success) only came via GUI installs: Slackware once got to 640 x 480 1 bit color, and since I wasn''t already an X Expert Back to Mandrake 8.1 I went. Before I went back to Mandrake, no CLI help system was worth anything. Which man do I want? No index. Drat. man 8? man? man Xf86Config? man XF86config? MAN XFree86? man xf86Config? man XDM? then when I read whatever man was the right one... Huh, I wanted man S3Server? No index. No sensible structure. Obfuscation (sorry, thats my word of the day). By the time I got done reading the wrong man pages, I saw an hour had passed my install takes only 15 minutes more than that hour, and at least that was functional. You need to teach us administration and must wean us into it gently. The local folder/floppy concept could be very usefu, there. >You think Windows Help system is useful? It may be THERE, but there''s nothing substantive in it, so what good is it?My solution: get someone to help you install the thing at least! President, C*O SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES< I am newbie - you are evidently not. Once you learn the cli, it''s all so very simple? Nah. The common home desktop PC user knows nothing about "which man page tells them the solution to their problem". And they have not one single clue about cli. No knowledge. No clues. No indices. Really - is it that my request is out of line? A simple index browser? Or maybe a non gui based browser which can load rescue docs, or can surf linkable help structures.. But still a cli device. If RPM can have a dependancy tree, and HTML can link, make the dependancy tree concept linkable. Yeah, I know there are higher end apps for this, but we are crashed, remember? No X, no cli familiarity either. I know it can be done!! * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At some point hitherto, Derek D. Martin hath spake thusly: > I'm not familiar with any of the others. In print, you might also > look for I'Reilly's "Running Linux" and/or "Linux Unleashed" which I > think is a SAMS publication, but I'm not sure. And how could I forget to mention Evi Nemeth's wonderful "Unix System Administration Handbook" which now covers Linux (but focuses on Red Hat). She will soon be releasing a Linux-specific version of the book as well, though it's still being reviewed now, so it may be a while before it's out. :) - -- Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG! GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8aqEldjdlQoHP510RAt4QAJ95dX19s6zc9btnw03U4YIWVffpagCeNFFt uwvUmKeXvKXKlRCrVsRq5eY= =WKKW -END PGP SIGNATURE- * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: >you only type what they tell you toRunning a Linux box means you are your own sysadmin. This is something that you don''t get so much with some other operating systemsyou will inevitably have to understand the response from "man tar."But I still think the attempt to assemble a document/executable program that goes over every fine detail of starting out in Linux is unreasonableWhereas books don''t require X or a mouse and you can access them offline 100% of the time. From what I recall of the article, they fit all of the author''s needs.< I tried to include a controlled minimum CLI for the newbie to use to get it all started (wink wink)! Seriously, though, M$ hates giving PC users a choice, demonstrated many times over. That has both conditioned PC users and has restricted them from twiddling the clockworks - good and bad. * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At some point hitherto, RABNUD hath spake thusly: > Sheepishly I admit - I have taken a class in "Intro to Unix" - I can > grep, after a limited fashion, but as a user I''m still a newbie. But > lets not even talk about cron, at, cups, NICs etc. Well, good documentation abounds... You say you've taken an intro to Unix class, so you've no doubt been exposed to a variety of topics, such as file manipulation commands (cp, mv, ln, etc.), one or more of the most common editors (vi, emacs, ed/ex/sed), and probably at least introduced to some of the more useful utilities (mail, grep, awk, script, etc.), right? So, what is it exactly that you want to learn NEXT? I think we can probably help you better if you give us an idea of what you're looking for... Remember, we were all newbies once. :) I can tell you how I got started with Linux. I was taking Unix System Administration at U-Mass Lowell. The instructor mentioned Linux and FreeBSD as free Unixes that we might be interested in investigating. So I admit I had a head start, in that I was already learning about how to administer Unix systems when I first began mucking with Linux. However, there were a lot of great resources, even back then. linuxdoc.org is your friend. :) look in the "Guides" section... therein you should find a few of the books that got me started, including Lars Werzenius's "Linux System Administrators' Guide," and "Linux Network Administrator's Guide" by Olaf Kirsch, which you can also get in print by O'Reilly Associates, if you can find it... It may be out of print. These books are old, and you should be forewarned that some of the information there may be a little out of date. For the most part though, administering Unix-like systems, Linux included, hasn't really changed all that much on a fundamental level, in the 30 years it's been around. There are a few other guides there that you might find helpful, though I'm not familiar with any of the others. In print, you might also look for I'Reilly's "Running Linux" and/or "Linux Unleashed" which I think is a SAMS publication, but I'm not sure. These are both pretty good, though in areas where they are distribution-specific, they tend to cover Red Hat. Since it sounds like you're running Mandrake, you might instead look for a Mandrake-oriented book. I don't run Mandrake, and haven't been in the market for a Linux system admin type book for quite some time, so I can't really comment on what might be more appropriate in that regard. Hope that helps. - -- Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG! GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8aqAGdjdlQoHP510RAja9AJ9fCP+Yww3GLN3vJ6eFNZv02o94TQCeKRHt C4GlHBrxPQenmnZrifL6hpY= =hPLs -END PGP SIGNATURE- * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: Sheepishly I admit - I have taken a class in "Intro to Unix" - I can grep, after a limited fashion, but as a user I''m still a newbie. But lets not even talk about cron, at, cups, NICs etc. In fact, I''ve a bone to pick with Mandrake regarding default cron jobs But you see the point, a ray of hope in a clouded LUG! You mentioned you can install (and that implies you could configure) Apache? The common home PC users I know do not serve HTML, nor FTP, nor do they administer the bazillion possible ports which can be opened via a network hacker. what a way to deflate my initially optimistic impression! Anyway, this is way out of hand. You people were looking for something to gnaw on, maybe?? I admit my frustration came through, but nobody posted anything which looked like "I''m recently separated from M$ and I really have no idea" The few posts I read were all from people who appear to have far too long ago left the memory of M$ behind I feel no one would relate. Especially those who have never M$''d So many here are, um, dried up, without relevance to the M$ user. Show us a friendly and familiar way is all I asked; the LUG left me with no avenue but to post in the News area. And it cross posted out of Centralug and into GNHLUG what fun! * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
Every manual is fine. Some are just finer than others ;) -Mike- --- RABNUD <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: > > Howdy! > > Let me say right off that the moderators will certainly edit this post - > with a huge grin!! > > (Hints of an online message forum leap to the fore) > > >There is no shortage of printed material at > any self respecting bookstore on any particular flavor/distro of LinuxIt > would certainly be nice if there was some magical place/programbut as > with all other things > in life, with knowledge comes power > would never have attempted to > change the head gasket in my father''s engine without some > understandingdigestabilityfine manuals can make all the difference< > > Hmmm You seem pretty wise ;-), Which is the finest manual? > > > > > * > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. > * __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: Interesting Newbie article at CentraLUG.org
At http://news.gnhlug.org/article.php?sid=375 is: Howdy! Let me say right off that the moderators will certainly edit this post - with a huge grin!! (Hints of an online message forum leap to the fore) >There is no shortage of printed material at any self respecting bookstore on any particular flavor/distro of LinuxIt would certainly be nice if there was some magical place/programbut as with all other things in life, with knowledge comes power would never have attempted to change the head gasket in my father''s engine without some understandingdigestabilityfine manuals can make all the difference< Hmmm You seem pretty wise ;-), Which is the finest manual? * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
ssh and security
Hi, I have a RH7.2 machine that has had everything that's not being used shut off from day one: Starting nmap V. 2.54BETA30 ( www.insecure.org/nmap/ ) Interesting ports on (xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx): (The 1543 ports scanned but not shown below are in state: closed) Port State Service 22/tcp openssh 25/tcp opensmtp 80/tcp openhttp 443/tcpopenhttps 3306/tcp openmysql 1/tcp opensnet-sensor-mgmt (Port 1 is the Webmin package which uses https.) But last night I got this in /var/log/messages: Feb 12 20:00:37 xxx sshd(pam_unix)[18540]: authentication failure; logname= uid=0 euid=0 tty=ssh ruser= rhost=216.72.153.69 user=xx Feb 12 20:00:55 xxx sshd(pam_unix)[18540]: 2 more authentication failures; logname= uid=0 euid=0 tty=ssh ruser= rhost=216.72 .153.69 user=xx Where the user in question was a user that was being used to ssh into this machine remotely, and the IP traces back to a Venezualean ISP. So somehow s/he got the username. Has anyone seen anything like this before? BTW I require ssh v2 connections. I've read a little here and there about "monkey in the middle" attacks on ssh, but don't you have to be on the same subnet? * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: (OT) email
I hope that I can get things straightened out with mediaone, now AT&T. Some how things have become messed up in the cut over for me to the new domain and AT&T said they should have things straightened out in 48 hours. On top of that I am one of the few who has to pick a new user name as well. Thanks Sean On Wed, 2002-02-13 at 08:16, Kevin D. Clark wrote: > > "R. Sean Hartnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I need to get an email address that I can reach for school purposes for > > a few months. > > Can anyone recommend any free email service somewhere that is not one of > > the big spam outfits? > > I'd recommend Yahoo Mail. You can access this via the web or POP3, > and you can even configure Yahoo's servers to forward your email to > another account if you want. > > --kevin > -- > Kevin D. Clark (cetaceannetworks.com!kclark) | Will hack Perl for > Cetacean Networks, Inc. | fine food, good beer, > Portsmouth, N.H. (USA)| or fun. > alumni.unh.edu!kdc (PGP Key Available)| > > > * > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. > * * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
On issue with Linux in general is system administration. Most of us Unix hackers know the underlying files. But, each distribution has a different set of tools. I use SuSE(7.3). Their system admin tool is YaST(YaST1 is character cell curses based, and YaST2 is GUI). SuSE uses /etc/rc.config in a manner similar to Compaq's Tru64 (which we can thank Charles for). I routinely change from DHCLIENT (home, work and Northeastern) to static IP (MIT). Takes a few seconds to configure using YaST1. I am less knowledgable with Red Hat. They did use Linuxconf, but I'm not sure what they use now. What is important for Linux Newbies is that there should be a relatively straightforward system management utility that people can use to change settings once the system has been installed. On 13 Feb 2002 at 7:34, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I also have to weigh in on this thread. Comparing RedHat to Debian is > like comparing Campbell's soup to home cooking. Or maybe it's more > like comparing Velveeta to a fine Brie. Some people recoil at the > fact that there are trade-offs to be made when profitability and time > to market become major engineering constraints. Some people are > willing to accept the trade-offs for convenience and industrial-grade > consistency. I'm personally too impatient to wait for Debian to get > some of things right that are imporant to me (say - installation, or > MH?) and too busy these days to dive in and help them get it straight. > > I run RedHat. I started on Slackware, moved to RedHat (thanks Jon!) > and have spent quality time with SuSE (ia32 and PPC), Mandrake and > Debian. I've poked at Corel and Storm. I took a year long excursion > into Mandrake and found it very difficult to routinely find some of > the more obscure packages that were built with Mandrake in mind. > > I understand what's going to happen when dealing with RedHat. The > user base is broad enough that if something's going to cause trouble I > hear about it in a hurry. I can nearly count on two mildly buggy > releases a year with relatively up-to-date stuff and I can ride herd > on the bugs that get in my face. > > > ccb > > -- > Charles C. Bennett, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > * > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. > * -- Jerry Feldman Portfolio Partner Engineering 508-467-4315 http://www.testdrive.compaq.com/linux/ Compaq Computer Corp. 200 Forest Street MRO1-3/F1 Marlboro, Ma. 01752 * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
RE: (OT) email
The new AT&T Boardband servers are already listed on their web pages, and are working for those of us who have changed our addresses. Both POP3 and SMTP servers are: mail.attbi.com On 13 Feb 2002 at 7:19, Lawrence.Tilly@LibertyMutual. wrote: > Just an FYI Sean. M1 is changing over to another mail service before 3/15 > (at least in our area). I just found out about the change this week. Anyway, > the new service is supposed to provide a web interface to your email so that > you can check it from any browser if you're not on your normal connection. > > Although the service change happens mid-March, I believe you can start the > new account up at any time and start forwarding things over. Have you > checked into this yet? > > -Larry > > > -Original Message- > From: Michael Costolo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 1:24 AM > To: R. Sean Hartnett; GNHLUG Posting Address > Subject: Re: (OT) email > > > I second the Yahoo! suggestion. > > -Mike- > > On Wednesday 13 February 2002 03:58 am, R. Sean Hartnett wrote: > I need to get an email address that I can reach for school purposes for > a few months. > Can anyone recommend any free email service somewhere that is not one of > the big spam outfits? > > Mediaone does not always seem to be available to reach from the > "outside" of late. > > Sean > > _ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > * > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. > * > > * > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. > * -- Jerry Feldman Portfolio Partner Engineering 508-467-4315 http://www.testdrive.compaq.com/linux/ Compaq Computer Corp. 200 Forest Street MRO1-3/F1 Marlboro, Ma. 01752 * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: (OT) email
"R. Sean Hartnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I need to get an email address that I can reach for school purposes for > a few months. > Can anyone recommend any free email service somewhere that is not one of > the big spam outfits? I'd recommend Yahoo Mail. You can access this via the web or POP3, and you can even configure Yahoo's servers to forward your email to another account if you want. --kevin -- Kevin D. Clark (cetaceannetworks.com!kclark) | Will hack Perl for Cetacean Networks, Inc. | fine food, good beer, Portsmouth, N.H. (USA)| or fun. alumni.unh.edu!kdc (PGP Key Available)| * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: linux/windows security
Paul Iadonisi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > The big thing the frames support. I expect that when links has ssl support > that lynx will go a way. I don't think Red Hat has a problem with lynx, but > the frames support is probably what prompted it to migrate to links. There's also table support: links handles tables reasonably well, and lynx doesn't. For simple tables, links is great; but for sites that use multiple nested tables as formatting, they can be completely unreadable in links while they're perfectly readable in lynx. I'd hate to see lynx disappear, if only for this reason. -- John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux & Unix ICQ 28611923 / AIM abreauj / JABBER [EMAIL PROTECTED] / YAHOO abreauj Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0xD5C7B5D9 PGP-Key-Fingerprint 72 FB 39 4F 3C 3B D6 5B E0 C8 5A 6E F1 2C BE 99 msg12908/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: linux/windows security
I also have to weigh in on this thread. Comparing RedHat to Debian is like comparing Campbell's soup to home cooking. Or maybe it's more like comparing Velveeta to a fine Brie. Some people recoil at the fact that there are trade-offs to be made when profitability and time to market become major engineering constraints. Some people are willing to accept the trade-offs for convenience and industrial-grade consistency. I'm personally too impatient to wait for Debian to get some of things right that are imporant to me (say - installation, or MH?) and too busy these days to dive in and help them get it straight. I run RedHat. I started on Slackware, moved to RedHat (thanks Jon!) and have spent quality time with SuSE (ia32 and PPC), Mandrake and Debian. I've poked at Corel and Storm. I took a year long excursion into Mandrake and found it very difficult to routinely find some of the more obscure packages that were built with Mandrake in mind. I understand what's going to happen when dealing with RedHat. The user base is broad enough that if something's going to cause trouble I hear about it in a hurry. I can nearly count on two mildly buggy releases a year with relatively up-to-date stuff and I can ride herd on the bugs that get in my face. ccb -- Charles C. Bennett, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
RE: (OT) email
Just an FYI Sean. M1 is changing over to another mail service before 3/15 (at least in our area). I just found out about the change this week. Anyway, the new service is supposed to provide a web interface to your email so that you can check it from any browser if you're not on your normal connection. Although the service change happens mid-March, I believe you can start the new account up at any time and start forwarding things over. Have you checked into this yet? -Larry -Original Message- From: Michael Costolo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 1:24 AM To: R. Sean Hartnett; GNHLUG Posting Address Subject: Re: (OT) email I second the Yahoo! suggestion. -Mike- On Wednesday 13 February 2002 03:58 am, R. Sean Hartnett wrote: I need to get an email address that I can reach for school purposes for a few months. Can anyone recommend any free email service somewhere that is not one of the big spam outfits? Mediaone does not always seem to be available to reach from the "outside" of late. Sean _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. * * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
Re: (OT) email
I second the Yahoo! suggestion. -Mike- On Wednesday 13 February 2002 03:58 am, R. Sean Hartnett wrote: I need to get an email address that I can reach for school purposes for a few months. Can anyone recommend any free email service somewhere that is not one of the big spam outfits? Mediaone does not always seem to be available to reach from the "outside" of late. Sean _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com * To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *
