Re: Distro strengths and weaknesses (was Re: Distro stats)

2001-07-26 Thread Bob Kenney

Benjamin Scott wrote:
 
 ...
 
  ... our OpenVMS cluster ...
 
   VMS?  Eww.  ;-)

Don't -even- go there, Ben.  Don't get me wrong - Unix was and is my
first love in OS's.  Still, after 10 years on VMS, I've come to appreciate
it too.  Queueing, both batch and printing, is verra verra nice.  I hate to
say this, but it tailors to admin functions far better than unices.

We're being forced away from using OpenVMS cuz the idiot in charge didn't
like the idea of us using a proprietary OS.  FYI he wasn't talking about
going to linux or openbsd.  Stop laughing!





Damnit, I -told- you not to go there, now look what you made me do! :-O

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Re: Distro Stats

2001-07-25 Thread Kenneth E. Lussier

Quoting Benjamin Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

   All but the most die-hard Debian users will generally agree the
 current
 stable installer is inferior to what you get with Red Hat, Mandrake, and
 SuSE.  Indeed, I've been told that an improved installer is one of the
 big
 focuses of the next major Debian release.  Given that Red Hat, at least,
 releases their installer under a full GPL, I would expect Debian could
 make
 use of much of Red Hat's work.

I believe that when Storm Linux went under, they GPL'd their installer. The
Debian group would probably go for that, since it was already built for a Debian
environment. It was also a really nice GUI, and fairly intuitive. The one thing
that I like about Debians current installer is that you can tell it to install
via FTP, and you get the latest packages and security updates from their site.
 
   As far as package management goes, I find Debian is a real mixed bag.
 Their build tools are no where near as slick as RPM, and who every
 designed
 dselect must have gone out of their way to make it counter-intuitive. 
 On
 the other hand, APT is the best thing I've seen in the areas of
 automatic
 updates and dependency solving.  I keep meaning to check out that
 company
 that got APT working with RPM, in my copious free time.  :-)

I keep hearing about a tool called urpmi that Mandrake uses. If everything that
I have read is true (which I'm sure it isn't), it is supposed to be the best of
both RPM and APT. But, since I don't use Mandrake, I have no idea what all the
hype is about.

C-Ya,
Kenny

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Re: Distro strengths and weaknesses (was Re: Distro stats)

2001-07-25 Thread Ed Robitaille

Bob Kenney wrote
 Wayne wrote:
  
  Are you having any problem with LPRng. Whenever I try printing
  a doc or a web page my printer hangs after it print the first page
  of the document. I've been trying to print the doc for LPRng
  for three days now and as of yet I'm still trying. My printer is a
  HP LaserJet 1100. I've never had a problem setting this printer
  before. Then again, I think this is the first time Redhat used LPRng.
  Later.
  Wayne
 
I run LPRng on my home pc; if that's what you're doing, there are 2
things that will make life a little easier.
1. READ the the installation instructions. Run 'checkpc -f'
This will clean up some configuration files. this was the
only way I could get mine to work.
2. I use 'aps-filter'. The setup script configured the printcap files
so that different types of files could be printed ( .txt, ps and raw files).
I run a later version of ghostscript (gs which does have have a reasonbly good
driver for my HP 882c printer.)

ED+


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Re: Distro Stats

2001-07-24 Thread Jerry Feldman

When I read Kenny's post, I checked on CNET to see if they had any stats. 
However they do have a review of distros including Red Hat 7.1.
http://linux.cnet.com/linux/0-2136876-7-6594227.html?tag=st.lx.1491268.prmo.
2136876-7-6594227

Be careful because that URL may be word wrapped. 
List Monkey wrote:
 Hi-
 
 My impression is that RedHat is by far #1 in North America.  18 months
 ago, I was happy about this because I thought they had a really good
 distro...now I am not so sure, afetr the 7.0 fiasco...
 
 For my own servers and workstations, I run a highly modified RH 6.2.  They
 have a good set of installer scripts that are all GPL'd,
 and are quite easy to modify.
 
 
 On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:
 
  Does anyone know where I can find stats on what Linux distributions
  are the most widely used, highest market share, number of downloads,
  etc.? I've been asked to make sure that when I use Linux that I use
  the best, most standards comlient distribution.
  
  TIA,
  Kenny
  
 
 
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Re: Distro Stats

2001-07-24 Thread Andrew W. Gaunt



We have sort of decided to use RH (x86) for serveral
reasons. They are not ordered by priority.

1) It is a major distribution and it appears that it will be around
   for a while.
2) One can buy support for it if needed (we're not doing this yet).
3) There appears to be a lot of vendor support at this time.
4) It seems to be popular so other people besides me and my colleagues
   a likely to be familiar with it.
5) The kickstart feature makes large scale automated installations less
   painful.

We did not base this on a objective analysis. It's more of an educated
guess based on what our customers are asking for at this time (which
harkens to vendor support since what are customers are really
interested
in is the tools and not the OS. For linux on sparc we go with debian
as RH has dropped support for sparc.

Personally, I like RH, however, my bias is more toward debian as the
package
management is slick and the sparc platform is supported. My main linux
system at home is debian running on a sparc-20 and it does what I want,
however, this configuration would not be for everybody -- oh well.

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Joshua S. Freeman wrote:
 
 I don't have any data on this, but, anecdotally, I believe RH is the
 most widely implemented on this side of the world... SuSe might be more
 prevalent in Europe... another plus of RH for PHB types is that there is
 a publically traded, viable company backing it...
 
 The other possibility is talk to some local, reputable vendor like
 antarctic-it and ask what they mostly support...  if they do a lot of
 Debian support, perhaps you could use debian and present them to your
 bosses as a going concern that offers support...
 
 just thinkin' out loud...
 
 in answer to the main question.. market share... I don't think I'm going
 out on a limb here saying that RH is the most widely used distro...
 
 cheers,
 
 J.
 
 On Mon,
 23 Jul 2001, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:
 
  A couple of people have pointed out that this e-mail may be
  interpreted by some as flamebait. So, before it get's started, I want
  to clarify what I ment...
 
  I'm not looking for which distro people think is best, or even which
  one really *IS* best, since it is a completely subjective judgement.
  What I am looking for is some sort of documentation to show management
  that breaks down the distributions and what they offer as far as
  standards, support, market share (which I tried to no avail to
  explain was useless data), etc. I can use Linux, but I have to have
  documentation to make them feel good about the choice of distribution.
 
  Kenny
  Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:
  
   Does anyone know where I can find stats on what Linux distributions
   are the most widely used, highest market share, number of downloads,
   etc.? I've been asked to make sure that when I use Linux that I use
   the best, most standards comlient distribution.
  
   TIA,
   Kenny
   --
   ---
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Geek by nature, Linux by choice
PGP KeyID 0xD71DF198
Public key available @ http://pgp.mit.edu
  
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   Public key available @ http://pgp.mit.edu
 
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Re: Distro Stats

2001-07-24 Thread Jeffry Smith

List Monkey said:
Hi-

My impression is that RedHat is by far #1 in North America.  18 months
ago, I was happy about this because I thought they had a really good
distro...now I am not so sure, afetr the 7.0 fiasco...

Which was on par with their 6.0 fiasco (and probably their 5.0 fiasco, but 
I went from 4.2 to 5.2, so don't know).  Word I've always heard is avoid a 
RH .0 release.  I can say that I've been pretty happy with both 6.2 and 
the 7.1 on my work laptop.


For my own servers and workstations, I run a highly modified RH 6.2.  They
have a good set of installer scripts that are all GPL'd,
and are quite easy to modify.

My general advice to folks is to try several distributions, finding out 
which one works the way you do.  All of them have strengths and 
weaknesses, but the most important criteria is that you can use it.  
Contrary to PHB belief, not everyone thinks the same way (heck, even 
companies don't all operate the same way).  One of the strengths of Linux 
is that you don't have to do things the Linux way - you can choose the 
RH, Debian, SuSE, Mandrake, TurboLinux, Caldera, . . .

(this advice also applies to Window Managers / Desktop Environments - the 
best one is the one that works for you).

In terms of standards compliance, almost all of them have agreed to follow 
the LSB, so as long as you use LSB-compliant apps, you should be OK (well, 
when LSB-compliant apps start showing up, but hey, the standard was just 
released).


jeff

---
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 See hack mode.





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RE: Distro Stats

2001-07-24 Thread Joseph E. Mainusch

It may seem obvious, but to me, the best computer related products are
the ones I just find myself always going back to.  I try out different
products, different word processors, email clients, browsers, and
distros.  I don't know how many email clients I've used, for example,
hoping to find the perfect one, but I just keep going back to PINE,
because it always works, and does everything I need.  

I always go back to RedHat.  I've tried several others, but I just find
myself always going back to it.  Corel tries too hard to be Windows...
Slackware is just too crude (two comments there:  I haven't used
slackware in many years, so that may well have changed, and when I was
first learning Linux Slackware's crudeness was perfect, since it forced
you learn how the things really worked on a low level)... They all have
their quirks (RedHat is no exception to that rule); but RedHat just
seems to be the best balance of what I find myself needing in a distro.


Perfect?  Certainly not!

Definitely good though.

RedHat gets my vote.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Jerry Feldman
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 6:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: List Monkey
Subject: Re: Distro Stats 


When I read Kenny's post, I checked on CNET to see if they had any
stats. 
However they do have a review of distros including Red Hat 7.1.
http://linux.cnet.com/linux/0-2136876-7-6594227.html?tag=st.lx.1491268.p
rmo.
2136876-7-6594227

Be careful because that URL may be word wrapped. 
List Monkey wrote:
 Hi-
 
 My impression is that RedHat is by far #1 in North America.  18 months

 ago, I was happy about this because I thought they had a really good 
 distro...now I am not so sure, afetr the 7.0 fiasco...
 
 For my own servers and workstations, I run a highly modified RH 6.2.  
 They have a good set of installer scripts that are all GPL'd, and are 
 quite easy to modify.
 
 
 On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:
 
  Does anyone know where I can find stats on what Linux distributions 
  are the most widely used, highest market share, number of downloads,

  etc.? I've been asked to make sure that when I use Linux that I use 
  the best, most standards comlient distribution.
  
  TIA,
  Kenny
  
 
 
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Re: Distro Stats

2001-07-24 Thread Michael O'Donnell




Andrew Gaunt wrote:
We have sort of decided to use RH (x86) for serveral reasons.

I don't think I've ever heard it put quite that way...


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Re: Distro Stats

2001-07-24 Thread Andrew W. Gaunt


I wish I could take credit for that bit of wit, but, it
was just another typographical monkey+typewriter phenomenon.

Michael O'Donnell wrote:
 
 Andrew Gaunt wrote:
 We have sort of decided to use RH (x86) for serveral reasons.
 
 I don't think I've ever heard it put quite that way...
 
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Re: Distro strengths and weaknesses (was Re: Distro stats)

2001-07-24 Thread Rich C



 Benjamin Scott said:

  On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Jeffry Smith wrote:
   now I am not so sure, afetr the 7.0 fiasco...
  
   Which was on par with their 6.0 fiasco ...
 
I dunno, I've gone through both upgrades, and I think Red Hat has
reached
  a new low with this whole 7.x business.  Between the development
snapshot of
  GCC, and not including kernel 2.2 in 7.1, I am *very* discouraged.  And
I
  used to be a big Red Hat fan.
 
Holding steady at 6.2.

Question: Why do you want to keep kernel 2.2? (Just curious, since you are
into security, if there are issues with the 2.4 kernel.)

Rich Cloutier
SYSTEM SUPPORT SERVICES
www.sysupport.com


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Distro strengths and weaknesses (was Re: Distro stats)

2001-07-24 Thread Bill Freeman

Derek D. Martin writes:
  ...  Laptops tend to have all of the latest and greatest hardware ...

Funny.  My laptop (ca. 1996) seems to still have mostly just
the same vintage of hardware that I bought it with (I did upgrade the
hard drive to much bigger, which plays havoc with the suspend to disk
feature support in the BIOS), While several of my destops seem more up
to date (they were purchaced within the last few years).

[For the humor impared::^)]

Bill

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Re: Distro Stats

2001-07-24 Thread Bobnhlinux

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 I've been asked to make sure that when I use Linux that I use
  the best, most standards comlient distribution.
  
Most standards compliant is a moving target, on both sides.
The LSB (Linux Standard Base) and FHS (File Hierarchy Standard)
are both changing slightly, even if mostly stable.

Each new release of a distribution changes their compliance
to these standards. For instance, Red Hat has said they will not
support FHS 2.x at this time. In six months or so,
if the other distributions support it, they will go along.
As a wild guess, that means wait for release 8.0.

Bob Sparks
Linux mouth
Disclaimer: These are my opinions, and nobody else's.
I keep trying to give them to my employer, but ...

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Re: Distro strengths and weaknesses (was Re: Distro stats)

2001-07-24 Thread Wayne

Benjamin Scott wrote:

 On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Derek D. Martin wrote:
  While I largely agree with this, I will point out that RH 7.1 is GREAT
  for most of the laptops I've come in contact with.

Are you having any problem with LPRng. Whenever I try printing
a doc or a web page my printer hangs after it print the first page
of the document. I've been trying to print the doc for LPRng
for three days now and as of yet I'm still trying. My printer is a
HP LaserJet 1100. I've never had a problem setting this printer
before. Then again, I think this is the first time Redhat used LPRng.
Later.
Wayne


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Re: Distro strengths and weaknesses (was Re: Distro stats)

2001-07-24 Thread Benjamin Scott

On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Wayne wrote:
 Are you having any problem with LPRng.

  My experience with LPRng is limited.  The RHL 7.1 users in our office are
using it, obviously.  Their printers were setup using the GUI admin
interface included by RHS, and configured to print directly to HP JetDirect
embedded print server units.  Apparently, LPRng does not read /etc/printcap,
but instead generates it.

  I saw some possible weirdness in 7.0 with network printing, but was unable
to verify.

 My printer is a HP LaserJet 1100.

  What happens if you cat a multi-page text file directly to the raw port?
For example,

cat my-big-file.txt  /dev/lp0

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Re: Distro strengths and weaknesses (was Re: Distro stats)

2001-07-24 Thread Bob Kenney

Wayne wrote:
 
 Are you having any problem with LPRng. Whenever I try printing
 a doc or a web page my printer hangs after it print the first page
 of the document. I've been trying to print the doc for LPRng
 for three days now and as of yet I'm still trying. My printer is a
 HP LaserJet 1100. I've never had a problem setting this printer
 before. Then again, I think this is the first time Redhat used LPRng.
 Later.
 Wayne


What kind of document is it?  If you'd post the entry in printcap
for the printer you're using, that might help as well.  I believe there
are two or three queues typically accessible via LPD on most HP printers,
one for ansi, another for PostScript.  I forget their names...  More info
will be necessary.


  One thing I will tell you - I just tried setting up
a queue for an 1100 for the first time on our OpenVMS cluster using the
DCPS printer driver.  DCPS usually has no problems communicating with any
kind of HP printer, but I just -could not- make it work with the 1100. Not
sure if it was the silly little tcp/ip dongle-usb connector hanging off
of the printer or what.  We spent a week thrashing on it and then told the
user to get another printer - perhaps a 4000 series.  That was the first
time I've ever had to do that with an HP printer. (Well, a PostScript-capable
HP printer, anyhow). It usually takes me a day at most to make DCPS work
with a new HP model we've never printed to before.  Usually more like a
half-hour.

Not sure if that has anything to do with your problems, but we were
getting similar wierdo problems with some jobs going thru fine, some jobs
hanging after a couple ten or hundred Kb.  -Perhaps- the same thing you're
seeing(?), although we comm to the printers via raw socket- port 9100,
rather than LPD like you're doing.



 
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Re: Distro strengths and weaknesses (was Re: Distro stats)

2001-07-24 Thread Benjamin Scott

On Tue, 24 Jul 2001, Derek D. Martin wrote:
 While I largely agree with this, I will point out that RH 7.1 is GREAT
 for most of the laptops I've come in contact with.

  For that matter, is is probably fine for most desktop systems, too.  At
worst, it is still better than Windows, and free, too.  We've got several
desktop systems in the office running RHL 7.1, with minimal problems.  I
just wouldn't want to trust a server to it.  You don't want your server
crashing every couple of months because of swap starvation or some stupid
thing.

  (We've also had weird problems with RHL 7.x not being able to bring down a
PPP modem link programatically, which happens to affect several of our
smaller customers.)

 Just make sure you stay on top of the updates...

  That applies universally.  :-)

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Distro Stats

2001-07-23 Thread Kenneth E. Lussier

Does anyone know where I can find stats on what Linux distributions
are the most widely used, highest market share, number of downloads,
etc.? I've been asked to make sure that when I use Linux that I use
the best, most standards comlient distribution.

TIA,
Kenny
-- 
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 Geek by nature, Linux by choice
 PGP KeyID 0xD71DF198
 Public key available @ http://pgp.mit.edu

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Re: Distro Stats

2001-07-23 Thread Kenneth E. Lussier

A couple of people have pointed out that this e-mail may be
interpreted by some as flamebait. So, before it get's started, I want
to clarify what I ment...

I'm not looking for which distro people think is best, or even which
one really *IS* best, since it is a completely subjective judgement.
What I am looking for is some sort of documentation to show management
that breaks down the distributions and what they offer as far as
standards, support, market share (which I tried to no avail to
explain was useless data), etc. I can use Linux, but I have to have
documentation to make them feel good about the choice of distribution.

Kenny
Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:
 
 Does anyone know where I can find stats on what Linux distributions
 are the most widely used, highest market share, number of downloads,
 etc.? I've been asked to make sure that when I use Linux that I use
 the best, most standards comlient distribution.
 
 TIA,
 Kenny
 --
 ---
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  Geek by nature, Linux by choice
  PGP KeyID 0xD71DF198
  Public key available @ http://pgp.mit.edu
 
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Re: Distro Stats

2001-07-23 Thread Joshua S. Freeman

I don't have any data on this, but, anecdotally, I believe RH is the
most widely implemented on this side of the world... SuSe might be more
prevalent in Europe... another plus of RH for PHB types is that there is 
a publically traded, viable company backing it...


The other possibility is talk to some local, reputable vendor like
antarctic-it and ask what they mostly support...  if they do a lot of
Debian support, perhaps you could use debian and present them to your
bosses as a going concern that offers support...

just thinkin' out loud...  

in answer to the main question.. market share... I don't think I'm going 
out on a limb here saying that RH is the most widely used distro...

cheers,

J.


On Mon,
23 Jul 2001, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:

 A couple of people have pointed out that this e-mail may be
 interpreted by some as flamebait. So, before it get's started, I want
 to clarify what I ment...
 
 I'm not looking for which distro people think is best, or even which
 one really *IS* best, since it is a completely subjective judgement.
 What I am looking for is some sort of documentation to show management
 that breaks down the distributions and what they offer as far as
 standards, support, market share (which I tried to no avail to
 explain was useless data), etc. I can use Linux, but I have to have
 documentation to make them feel good about the choice of distribution.
 
 Kenny
 Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:
  
  Does anyone know where I can find stats on what Linux distributions
  are the most widely used, highest market share, number of downloads,
  etc.? I've been asked to make sure that when I use Linux that I use
  the best, most standards comlient distribution.
  
  TIA,
  Kenny
  --
  ---
   Kenneth E. Lussier
   Geek by nature, Linux by choice
   PGP KeyID 0xD71DF198
   Public key available @ http://pgp.mit.edu
  
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 -- 
 ---
  Kenneth E. Lussier
  Geek by nature, Linux by choice
  PGP KeyID 0xD71DF198
  Public key available @ http://pgp.mit.edu
 
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Re: Distro Stats

2001-07-23 Thread List Monkey

Hi-

My impression is that RedHat is by far #1 in North America.  18 months
ago, I was happy about this because I thought they had a really good
distro...now I am not so sure, afetr the 7.0 fiasco...

For my own servers and workstations, I run a highly modified RH 6.2.  They
have a good set of installer scripts that are all GPL'd,
and are quite easy to modify.


On Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Kenneth E. Lussier wrote:

 Does anyone know where I can find stats on what Linux distributions
 are the most widely used, highest market share, number of downloads,
 etc.? I've been asked to make sure that when I use Linux that I use
 the best, most standards comlient distribution.
 
 TIA,
 Kenny
 


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