Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Sun, 2005-01-30 at 14:12 -0500, Jeff Kinz wrote: On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 01:32:49PM -0500, John Abreau wrote: On Sat, 2005-01-29 at 08:48, Jerry Feldman wrote: religiously, JABR does not like SuSE, and have always installed easily on the same machines that SuSE failed to install on. Ah, well then, that explains it. You've been using the wrong machines. :) All kidding aside, I've run into installation problems on the current machine I am using with Fedora and RedHat. I was able to trace it back to a quirk with APM and my particular bios -- it was then easy to get it to install and run by passing a flag to the kernel to tell it to not use APM. You may be in a similar situation -- SuSE's default kernel may not agree with your particular hardware for some reason. But can't say more than that since I don't know the particulars. I'm not impressed with distros anymore -- by the time I finish reconfiguring the kernel, upgrading all the apps and adding more, mucking about with KDE, etc., the only thing that remains vintage is the splash screen at logon -- but only because I have not bothered to nuke that as well. :-) And as though the world needs yet another distro, perhaps I should release one of my own one day just for fun. :-) -- -Fred Your government delights in doing things for you. By the time it's too late, you'll realize it's being done *to* you. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Sat, 2005-01-29 at 08:48, Jerry Feldman wrote: religiously, JABR does not like SuSE, and since he was doing the work... No, it's not a religious issue. I've tried SuSE a number of times, and I've never gotten it to install successfully. Redhat and Fedora have always installed easily on the same machines that SuSE failed to install on. -- John Abreau / Executive Director, Boston Linux Unix Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] / WWW http://www.abreau.net / PGP-Key-ID 0xD5C7B5D9 PGP-Key-Fingerprint 72 FB 39 4F 3C 3B D6 5B E0 C8 5A 6E F1 2C BE 99 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 01:32:49PM -0500, John Abreau wrote: On Sat, 2005-01-29 at 08:48, Jerry Feldman wrote: religiously, JABR does not like SuSE, and have always installed easily on the same machines that SuSE failed to install on. Ah, well then, that explains it. You've been using the wrong machines. :) -- Linux/Open Source: Your infrastructure belongs to you, free, forever. Idealism: Realism applied over a longer time period http://www.scaled.com/projects/tierone/ http://kinz.org http://www.fedoratracker.org http://www.fedorafaq.org http://www.fedoranews.org Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
I'll second this. In fact, every Compaq that I've ever seen does this. It's usually the last partition on the disk, is roughly 32MB in size and generally of a type not recognized by Linux fdisk or fips. It was actually the first partition and it was 5 GIGS in size. If you do manage to remove this partition, you can get it back by running the recovery CD that came with your Compaq. Then, you'll want to repartition the drive and not touch the one that meets the above criteria. You usually can't miss it, 'cause it shows up as Partition 4 on a system with only 2 partitions. You say that like new computers come with rescue CDs.. This Compaq did not. There is a utility to create them to CD-R(W) media, but you're only allowed to do it once. I did manage to finally get FreeBSD working. What I ended up having to do was repartiton the drive, let it recover to partiton 2 (the next one after the rescue partiton). It left the other two new partitions along. Linux CDs still would not boot correctly, still no idea why. The only ones I could get were a live rescue CD (not Knoppix). Anything else would just cause the system to reboot. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Sat, Jan 29, 2005 at 12:07:38AM -0500, Benjamin Scott wrote: On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, at 9:23pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Of course, most Linux users probably don't have use for most of those intangibles anyway ... It depends. Generally speaking, companies care more if you pay more. So an OptiPlex customer who wants to run Linux counts a lot more then the same guy with a Dimension instead. There was also a time where Dell was supporting the OptiPlex and Latitude lines with Linux, but never the Dimension or Inspiron. Dell has since dropped official Linux support on user stations, but they still provide informal support for those same lines. So it might reduce your hassle. When I install Linux on any machine, I basically understand that I won't be getting support. If I call in, I typically tell them its on Windows; I don't expect any support when I call and say 'Yeah, I just compiled Kernel 2.6.9 with inotify, and It's not working! ;) Then again, I don't maintain other people's personal computers: only my own, plus stuff we've purchased from Dell that's running as servers (where we can get Linux support). I'll admit that I've never had a problem I've needed to call tech support for since I started running Linux. On the gripping hand, I'd say there are probably better companies then Dell *or* HP to buy from for Linux stuff. True enough. Slightly off topic story about tech support: I bought myself a computer 3.5 years ago. At the time, it was a great bargain: $700 plus tax for a P4 1.6 Ghz, 256 meg of ram, 80 gig hard drive, XP preinstalled. (This was long before my Linux days.) 4 USB ports, built in firewire, S/PDIF out. It was sold by a company no one had ever heard of before: Medion, a German company. This was their first machine in the US, and it was sold only at Aldi (basically a bargain food store: I've not seen one since I moved here). When I got the machine, after a couple days, the modem simply stopped working. I called Tech support: there was no voice menu, no wait time, when I called, a guy named Cory answered the phone. I told him that I was pretty sure the modem was physically dead, as I'd run through all the possible software steps to fix it. He ran down his script, making sure I'd tried them all, and said Alright, we'll send you a box overnight with prepaid postage. Just stick the computer back in the box, call Fedex, and they'll bring it back here. Typical turnaround time is about 5 days. From the time Fedex took the computer to the time I got it back was 4. The box itself included styrofoam packaging materials and a roll of packing tape inside the box. My RMA number was 264. I can honestly say that's the best support I've ever had. :) I run Linux full time on that box now. I've upped the memory to 256 and installed 240 gigs worth of hard drives in it. I have a DVD burner to install in it sometime soon. (Can't give up my 70 days of uptime ;)) I still think that it's the best purchase I ever made: it's a great computer to this day, and if I had the option, I'd buy Medion again. Of course, I'm now addicted to Apple hardware, so that probably won't happen ;) -- Christopher Schmidt pgpv2EIexE6BL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 01:30:55 -0500 Jason Stephenson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll second this. In fact, every Compaq that I've ever seen does this. It's usually the last partition on the disk, is roughly 32MB in size and generally of a type not recognized by Linux fdisk or fips. I have 2 Presario laptops, both running Linux. One was initially set up to dual boot. Both are pure Linux now. Most PC vendors today place a hidden partition from which you can reinstall or repair the OS. The reason for this is that they do not have to provide you with an installation CD. One of the first things I did at work when I got my new desktop computer was to set it up for dual boot Windows XP and Linux. The only reason I used Windows was initially to work on a document using WordXP. I subsequently installed OfficeXP on Linux and imported the custom HP fonts. Unfortunately, the document template does not render well under OO. I bought the Compaq's because they were the best bang for the buck with my discount. WRT: Gateway. I soured on Gateway years ago. I worked on a contract for a company that had a contract with Gateway for their PCs. Virtually every machine from Gateway had a problem. One of my coworkers bought one and the monitor arrived DOA. Later I worked at Microcom who was also a Gateway customer. I took a Gateway out of the box, and found that the CD was dead. More specifically, the secondary IDE channel. I do know some Gateway success stories, but the failures far outweigh the success. I have also had personal experience with Dell. A client of mine had a Dell, and had a bad experience with customer service (before they outsourced to India). The BLU bought a Dell server. (Actually it was Boston User Groups). JABR had some difficulty with GENToo initially, so we went to Fedora Core 2. religiously, JABR does not like SuSE, and since he was doing the work... In general, I would probably buy a Dell or HP/Compaq depending on the price and features, although I might also buy a system with Linux preinstalled. -- Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 pgpaqjNmZMqlI.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
Travis Roy wrote: I'll second this. In fact, every Compaq that I've ever seen does this. It's usually the last partition on the disk, is roughly 32MB in size and generally of a type not recognized by Linux fdisk or fips. It was actually the first partition and it was 5 GIGS in size. Guess it varies by model. :) Now that you mention it, I believe the partition on my laptop is about 2GB in size, but I'm certain that it is partition 4. IIRC the partition was 32MB on a Presario desktop from '95 that I used until two years ago as a gateway/firewall. It ran OpenBSD like a champ. You say that like new computers come with rescue CDs.. This Compaq did not. There is a utility to create them to CD-R(W) media, but you're only allowed to do it once. That's one of the reasons I stopped buying named brand computers several years ago. I generally build my own, so I don't have to worry about such things. I know, not everyone has that luxury and it isn't helpful in answering the question. I did manage to finally get FreeBSD working. What I ended up having to do was repartiton the drive, let it recover to partiton 2 (the next one after the rescue partiton). It left the other two new partitions along. Linux CDs still would not boot correctly, still no idea why. The only ones I could get were a live rescue CD (not Knoppix). Anything else would just cause the system to reboot. It's very likely that HP/Compaq have changed a few things. ;) I have not had any real issues with my Compaq laptop running either FreeBSD or Linux, or even Win98SE that came with it. Y'know, there might be a setting in the BIOS that turns that silly check off. Have you ever seend the Compaq BIOS configuration utility? Nice and graphical and all.Gives me the willies. I'd check my laptop for you, but when I installed a 20GB drive on it after I got Linux running, I decided not to put the BIOS partition on there. Still works, I just can't change the BIOS and it won't sleep properly. Seeing as little as I use it these days, it doesn't really matter. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
Jerry Feldman wrote: Most PC vendors today place a hidden partition from which you can reinstall or repair the OS. The reason for this is that they do not have to provide you with an installation CD. Right. I'm aware of that. It's another reason why I don't buy named brand PCs. They advertise an 80 GB disk, which they're measing in base 10, so really it's only a 72 GB (or so) disk, then they put some 5 to 8 GB partition on the disk with the install medaia, so really you're getting a 64 GB disk. It's all there if you bother to read the fine print. Personally, I'd rather have the install media on a bootable DVD and have the full use of my disk, thanks. In general, I would probably buy a Dell or HP/Compaq depending on the price and features, although I might also buy a system with Linux preinstalled. I don't think Dell does the above, at least not on the Optiplex and PowerEdge lines. Frankly, if I were buying a PC from a name brand maker, and I was concerned about support, I would buy nothing but Dell or Apple. Where I work, we buy Dell and Sun hardware, and I have pretty much the final say on what we buy. Since my boss is concerned about support, we buy the Optiplex machines for the 3 year warranty, etc. If I had the time at my current job, I'd actually assemble our own workstations.--I'm busy enough as it is. :) That said, I've not really had to deal with tech support at any company, much. I generally fix the problems myself before I get to the point of calling. So, we're wasting money on support, but it makes my boss happy to think we have it, in case we need it. ;) I haven't dealt with Dell's tech support in over three years, and when I did I found it acceptable. Compaq, I've never called them. Gateway, I've heard is abysmal, but judging from the overall quality of their machines, it's not surprising. ;) Now, I have dealt with tech support from a couple of motherboard manufacturers recently and got a satisfactory response every time. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
Jason Stephenson wrote: Jerry Feldman wrote: In general, I would probably buy a Dell or HP/Compaq depending on the price and features, although I might also buy a system with Linux preinstalled. I don't think Dell does the above, at least not on the Optiplex and PowerEdge lines. I was recently pleasantly surprised when ordering a system (eServer) from IBM. They asked me what operating system I wanted: Linux, Windows or none. No prompting on my part. And that was the order they presented them. I've grown to be be very happy with IBM. Though we build all our own systems usually, we do have a few clients who demand brand name. I haven't dealt with Dell's tech support in over three years, and when I did I found it acceptable. Compaq, I've never called them. Gateway, I've heard is abysmal, but judging from the overall quality of their machines, it's not surprising. ;) We had a client who purchased some Dell systems from a company which was going out of business. The Dell systems were only three months old. One failed (a motherboard failure) immediately. When we called Dell, we were informed that any warranty only applied to the original purchaser - and we'd have to provide a credit card to continue the conversation. It took a threat of legal action by my client to get them to honor their warranty. Now, I have dealt with tech support from a couple of motherboard manufacturers recently and got a satisfactory response every time. YMMV, I have an Intel motherboard sitting on the shelf under warranty. Intel refuses to accept it until we run their diagnostic on it. Of course, that is impossible since it blows power supplies within minutes of being turned on. Intel doesn't consider that an acceptable reason to not run the diagnostic. I don't have the patience for another 40 minute phone call to get to someone more sensible. Anyways, my Hindi isn't very good. I'm also not surprised over the Presario response to Linux. I got a similar response when a school was donated one and we needed to install Windows NT on it (the application required it), instead of the XP Home it came with. (Albeit that WinNT is an old OS.) HP/Compaq said the only configuration which worked was the one it was shipped as. We got it to work anyways, of course, though we had to install a network card. -- Dan Jenkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Rastech Inc., Bedford, NH, USA --- 1-603-206-9951 *** Technical Support for over a Quarter Century ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
Jason (et. al.), reinstall or repair the OS. The reason for this is that they do not have to provide you with an installation CD. .. Personally, I'd rather have the install media on a bootable DVD and have the full use of my disk, thanks. It is not just that they want to save the cost of the CD, but some companies are ordering systems without CD drives because they want a thin client on the desktop...something without floppies and/or a CD...something that could boot over the network and be diskless or be (re)installed standalone with only a hard disk. All data comes through the corporate server. They view floppies, CDs and USB Flash devices as just another way of having games and viruses introduced into the work environment. md -- Jon maddog Hall Executive Director Linux International(R) email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. (R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis (R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other countries. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:56:58 -0500 Jon maddog Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is not just that they want to save the cost of the CD, but some companies are ordering systems without CD drives because they want a thin client on the desktop...something without floppies and/or a CD...something that could boot over the network and be diskless or be (re)installed standalone with only a hard disk. All data comes through the corporate server. They view floppies, CDs and USB Flash devices as just another way of having games and viruses introduced into the work environment. Agreed. My new desktop does have a DVD drive, but the preinstalled WindowsXP was upgraded to the corporate environment. -- Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 pgp7XMwOtYmFO.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:47:31 -0500 Dan Jenkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm also not surprised over the Presario response to Linux. I got a similar response when a school was donated one and we needed to install Windows NT on it (the application required it), instead of the XP Home it came with. (Albeit that WinNT is an old OS.) HP/Compaq said the only configuration which worked was the one it was shipped as. We got it to work anyways, of course, though we had to install a network card. The support people work from cookbooks. There was a rumor that Compaq would void the hardware warranty if you installed another OS (FALSE), but the support people only speak the installed OS. Some repair people at places like CompUSA were using that line because their tools were Windows based. BTW: most people I know who have IBM thinkpads like them. Additionally, both IBM and HP have very strong Linux programs. -- Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 pgp5CV1uQcucn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
Jerry Feldman wrote: BTW: most people I know who have IBM thinkpads like them. Additionally, both IBM and HP have very strong Linux programs. I've bought about fifty IBM ThinkPads in the two years. Excellent pieces of equipment in my mind. A number of them are running Linux. No problems at all using Mandrake Linux 9 and 10 on them with no hardware configuration needed other than what the default OS installation detected configured. Other than the cheap Presarios, I rarely see HP computers. -- Dan Jenkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Rastech Inc., Bedford, NH, USA --- 1-603-206-9951 *** Technical Support for over a Quarter Century ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
Jon maddog Hall wrote: Jason (et. al.), reinstall or repair the OS. The reason for this is that they do not have to provide you with an installation CD. .. Personally, I'd rather have the install media on a bootable DVD and have the full use of my disk, thanks. It is not just that they want to save the cost of the CD, but some companies are ordering systems without CD drives because they want a thin client on the desktop...something without floppies and/or a CD...something that could boot over the network and be diskless or be (re)installed standalone with only a hard disk. All data comes through the corporate server. They view floppies, CDs and USB Flash devices as just another way of having games and viruses introduced into the work environment. Agreed. But I've encountered several computers which provide no OS nor recovery CD, unless you pay them $25 or more to get one. So, if anything goes wrong, you cannot reload the OS (which Windows is so fond of needing), nor even restore the computer to factory condition. Admittedly these were all consumer grade systems, but no method of recovering them unless you paid $25 or $50 just seems wrong. For that matter, many now provide no method to reload the OS, just to restore to factory condition. Of course, this is yet another reason to use Linux - thought a bit esoteric to most folk. -- Dan Jenkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Rastech Inc., Bedford, NH, USA --- 1-603-206-9951 *** Technical Support for over a Quarter Century ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said: but no method of recovering them unless you paid $25 or $50 just seems wrong. (sigh) It is the old story that to throw a pre-pressed CD into a consumer grade computer would probably cost less than $.05. But they are going to make 100,000 of those consumer grade systems, so it is really a cost of $5,000. (probably more like $10K by the time you add the line item to the build order, QA, etc.) So now they have to create a process to order those CDs, a mail fulfillment firm to receive the money and mail them out, etc. etc. on an exception basis that brings the cost up to $25. per CDthen someone tries to make a profit center out of it, and it becomes $50. It is amazing. md -- Jon maddog Hall Executive Director Linux International(R) email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St. Voice: +1.603.672.4557 Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A. WWW: http://www.li.org Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries. (R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis (R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other countries. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:50:50 -0500 Jon maddog Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is the old story that to throw a pre-pressed CD into a consumer grade computer would probably cost less than $.05. But they are going to make 100,000 of those consumer grade systems, so it is really a cost of $5,000. (probably more like $10K by the time you add the line item to the build order, QA, etc.) So now they have to create a process to order those CDs, a mail fulfillment firm to receive the money and mail them out, etc. etc. on an exception basis that brings the cost up to $25. per CDthen someone tries to make a profit center out of it, and it becomes $50. Hm. That sounds familiar. SO familiar. Wha?... Dan Jenkins wrote: no method of recovering them unless you paid $25 or $50 just seems wrong. For that matter, many now provide no method to reload the OS, just to restore to factory condition. Of course, this is yet another reason to use Linux... Bingo! That's it. Let's see ... ... page 231: Most well-run companies migrate unconsciously to the northeast, setting themselves up to be caught by a change in the basis of competition and an attack from below by disruptive technology. -Clayton M. Christensen, The Innovator's Dilemma, HarperCollins, 2000 -Bill ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
Jon maddog Hall wrote: It is not just that they want to save the cost of the CD, but some companies are ordering systems without CD drives because they want a thin client on the desktop...something without floppies and/or a CD...something that could boot over the network and be diskless or be (re)installed standalone with only a hard disk. All data comes through the corporate server. They view floppies, CDs and USB Flash devices as just another way of having games and viruses introduced into the work environment. Yep, I know all about that paranoia. I work for a consortium of Massachusetts public libraries. I've long thought that thin client is just market speak for rip-off. In other words, you pay more for less computer. Yeah, there are places where they work, but there are places where they don't. I prefer to assemble my own gear, 'cause then, when something breaks, I generally know what broke and what it'll take to fix/replace it. I know that's not an option for everybody, but if you're getting into GNU/Linux or similar territory, then you can't rely on the big vendors to hold your hand. That's what lists like this are for. I realize that the OP is in a situation where he doesn't have control over the hardware that was acquired. That's an unfortunate situation to be in and I face it occasionally at my current job and used to face it constantly at previous employers. In this particular case, I'd recommend installing Cygwin and forget about dual booting. Pretty much anything you'd want to do for network monitoring on GNU/Linux you can do with Cygwin, unless you want to turn the box into a packet shaping firewall, which I don't gather the OP wants to do. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Vendor special partitions (was: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux)
There are two types of special partitions one usually sees these days: One is the system utility partition, which contains things like BIOS setup, diagnostics, and such. Compaq is famous for using such a partition *instead* of firmware-based utilities, meaning if your hard disk or RAID array is on the fritz, fixing the system becomes very difficult indeed. Some other vendors ship diagnostics, more capable utilities, etc., in utility partitions, but still include the essentials in firmware. Dell does this. These partitions are usually small, around 50 megabytes or less. The other type of special partition is the system restore partition. This contains a compressed image of the factory pre-loaded software. This lets one restore the system to factory condition with a few keystrokes. As the number one support problem these days is a corrupted Windows software install (usually due to malware), this is a big bonus for all involved. More and more vendors using restore partitions do not ship any external media (CDs or DVDs) with their systems. It basically boils down to BOM cost, coupled with the fact that the vast majority of users never use the media in the first place, and indeed, will typically lose it if provided. Since most never use it, and those that need it typically end up having to order a new set anyway, why bother shipping it in the first place? I'm not kidding about this; I do support for a living, and it is practically unheard of for someone to actually know where their original CDs are. People regularly lose thousands of dollars of software this way. The system restore partition will often include a utility which will create removable media (a CD set or a DVD) which does the same thing. This, in theory, gives the operator the chance to make his system recovery process independent of the hard disk. Nobody does this, either. All this of course penalizes the very small minority of people with a clue. Microsoft encourages the idea of restoring a factory image, rather then providing install media. Most Microsoft software shipped with a computer (called OEM software by Microsoft) is legally part of that computer. It is not transferable to another computer. Microsoft discovered that most people who, for example, bought Office with a PC were transferring it to their next PC, because nobody reads the license which says you can't. Microsoft was naturally upset by this. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | | not represent the views or policy of any other person or organization. | | All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
PC vendor experiences (was: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux)
Since everyone is voicing their opinions and experiences with vendors, here are some of mine: I work for a systems integration and support company, so in most cases, I *am* technical support for the end-user. While I can do all the work myself, it's far cheaper for me to be able to pick up the phone, call the vendor, and say The hard disk is toast. Come replace it. If you're smart and buy the right support options, this is all it takes. It's worth it. Life is too short to spend time being a parts monkey, and I've got too much to do as it is. Any time you call a big vendor for support, your call is going into a large building staffed by several thousand trained monkeys. Some monkeys will be better then other monkeys. Thus, past experience is no guarantee of future results. I've had bad and good experiences with all the major vendors. I fully expect this to continue. The ability to state I want this call escalated in a stern tone of voice is useful. Dell supports Linux on their PowerEdge servers reasonable well. They don't provide support beyond making the OS work with their hardware, but they don't do that for Windoze, either. (You can buy software support if you need it.) Dell has and continues to fund a lot of development for things like kernel drivers and features that their products need; see http://linux.dell.com/ for resources. This is where the informal OptiPlex and Latitude support comes from, too. I work with a customer who likes Gateway. Like Dell, they have a business division, which is where they buy from. The hardware appears to be fairly standard commodity stuff (like a Dell). ATX cases, Intel motherboards. The business sales rep has been very helpful. Tech support varies a lot (see above). Gateway as a whole definitely still has the consumer mindset; the sales rep has done his best, but I really get the feeling he's fighting the company he's working for. Unfortunate. I used to prefer buying whiteboxes from smaller vendors. For one, I like to support the Local Guy and the Little Guy. For another, good whitebox vendors would often provider better support at a better price then a good major brand. Unfortunately, too many of these good vendors went under, due to price pressure from the likes of Dell. Thus, professionally, I no longer recommend whitebox systems. I don't want the warranty to evaporate in two years. One also faces the issue that many whitebox vendors are selling crap. They keep no records and have no clue; their idea of support is downloading drivers from http://www.asus.com.tw for you. That's if you're lucky; many ship whatever cheapest no-name components they can find that month. No manual, no vendor markings, no support at all. Have a nice day. Personally, I build my own computers from parts, but that's because I know what I'm doing, and it lets me play with hardware. Even so, I don't pre-built whitebox systems; I buy major brand parts and integrate them myself. Asus, Epox, Intel, and Abit motherboards; Adaptec SCSI controllers; ATI and NVidia VGA; Intel and 3Com NICs; Plextor optical drives; it's all top-of-the-line, with support right from the manufacturer. I like fudge. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | | not represent the views or policy of any other person or organization. | | All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Vendors and responsibility (was: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux)
A reoccuring theme in this and many other forums is that the level of support one gets with a computer really sucks. As I said before, more and more companies (Dell, HP/Compaq, and Gateway for sure) are offering two product lines. One is called the consumer product line. They call it that because cheap idiots would be considered poor marketing. While I might accept one of these if it were free, I would never pay for one. The business line is what you buy if you want to be treated like a person instead of a problem. It's not one big thing, it's a lot of little things. Things like getting the CDs with the system by default, getting tech support that at least has seen a clue before, getting a warranty that's actually worth a damn, things like that. The business line is more expensive until you actually own one; then those extras pay for themselves twice over. Additionally, more and more vendors are offering various levels of support on top of that. You can stick with the 90-day we guarantee we ship a working product warranty, or you can pay extra for 3 years, on-site, next-day service, and support with a clue. So while I hold vendors accountable for their lousy customer service, they are not the only ones I blame. Consider this scenario: Two computers, side-by-side in a store, completely identical in terms of hardware, specs, and software load. The one on the left has a one-year warranty which involves shipping the computer back to the vendor. The one on the right comes with a three-year warranty where the vendor sends a tech to your site. If you call for support for the one on the left, you get a tech in Canada who at least has basic computer knowledge and is interested in solving your problem. The one on the right will get you some guy in India who learned English three months ago and is reading from a script. The one on the left costs $300 more then the one on the right. The vast majority of purchasing agents and consumers in this country will buy the one on the right every single time. Vendors are just giving people what they want, and apparently, the vast majority want cheap crap that doesn't work. You get what you pay for. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | | not represent the views or policy of any other person or organization. | | All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:06:47 -0500 (EST) Benjamin Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They don't care. Indeed, they want it that way. Presario PCs are as-cheap-as-possible junk desktops. Their sole purpose is to keep money from going to the Dells and Gateways of the world. They don't want them to work really well; that might take sales away from the DeskPro line. Compaq's position is that if you care, you'll buy a DeskPro. AFAIK, the DeskPro line was killed several years ago. I have an old deskpro in my office running Win2K and SuSE 9.2. It's interesting that there is a strong Linux program within HP (that pays my salary), but the low end desktop PCs are designed for Windows, as are Dells and Gateways. HP does have a line of Laptops with Linux installed. -- Jerry Feldman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boston Linux and Unix user group http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9 PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9 pgpmjMITpkgED.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, at 7:55am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AFAIK, the DeskPro line was killed several years ago. Well, the DeskPro *brand* was retired, but I'm pretty sure the part of HP that was Compaq still offers a line of business class desktop computers, or whatever you want to call them. I hate Compaq (religious reasons), so I haven't really paid attention to what they're calling there stuff these days. FWIW, Dell and Gateway do this, too, to different extends, and I imagine other vendors do, too. With Dell, you've got two lines of desktops: The Dimension and the OptiPlex. The hardware is nearly identical; it's the software configuration, service and support, and lifecycle management that vary. And that's a big difference if you've got a fleet of tens or hundreds of PCs to manage. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | | not represent the views or policy of any other person or organization. | | All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 08:36:29PM -0500, Benjamin Scott wrote: On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, at 7:55am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AFAIK, the DeskPro line was killed several years ago. FWIW, Dell and Gateway do this, too, to different extends, and I imagine other vendors do, too. With Dell, you've got two lines of desktops: The Dimension and the OptiPlex. The hardware is nearly identical; it's the software configuration, service and support, and lifecycle management that vary. And that's a big difference if you've got a fleet of tens or hundreds of PCs to manage. From the consumer standpoint, I can attest to this: my boss was recently buying a new laptop, and had the choice in front of him to choose two mostly identical laptops. When he asked the difference, this was basically their answer: One is the top of the line. The other isn't. Longer warrantys, higher classes of support, more premium parts... pretty much all of it was in intangibles. Of course, most Linux users probably don't have use for most of those intangibles anyway, so I'd have just saved myself some money, but my boss still, sadly, runs Windows. ;) -- Christopher Schmidt pgp0kQmsd0eP4.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Fri, 28 Jan 2005, at 9:23pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From the consumer standpoint, I can attest to this: my boss was recently buying a new laptop, and had the choice in front of him to choose two mostly identical laptops. When he asked the difference, this was basically their answer: One is the top of the line. The other isn't. Longer warrantys, higher classes of support, more premium parts... pretty much all of it was in intangibles. I can say that the first time you call tech support, it becomes very tangible indeed. At one time, calling Dimension support meant you were talking to somebody in India, who was recently taught English, and had never used a computer outside the one feeding him the script he was reading. OptiPlex support went to a center in North America and someone who was at least nominally a technician. Any money you saved by buying the Dimension evaporated with that first call. 'course, no matter how many times I explain this, I still get customers who always buy the cheaper Dimensions. Then they're astounded that the support they get is so bad. *shakes head* Of course, most Linux users probably don't have use for most of those intangibles anyway ... It depends. Generally speaking, companies care more if you pay more. So an OptiPlex customer who wants to run Linux counts a lot more then the same guy with a Dimension instead. There was also a time where Dell was supporting the OptiPlex and Latitude lines with Linux, but never the Dimension or Inspiron. Dell has since dropped official Linux support on user stations, but they still provide informal support for those same lines. So it might reduce your hassle. On the gripping hand, I'd say there are probably better companies then Dell *or* HP to buy from for Linux stuff. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | | not represent the views or policy of any other person or organization. | | All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
Benjamin Scott wrote: Keep in mind that many Compaq's keep the BIOS setup program on disk, where just about everything else keeps it in firmware. That means that if you blow away the utility partition, you can no longer do anything useful to configure the BIOS. I'll second this. In fact, every Compaq that I've ever seen does this. It's usually the last partition on the disk, is roughly 32MB in size and generally of a type not recognized by Linux fdisk or fips. If you do manage to remove this partition, you can get it back by running the recovery CD that came with your Compaq. Then, you'll want to repartition the drive and not touch the one that meets the above criteria. You usually can't miss it, 'cause it shows up as Partition 4 on a system with only 2 partitions. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
My workplace got a workstation machine for our Manchester datacenter. Just a computer for people that come to work in the facility to use if they don't have a laptop or for testing and whatnot. Anyway, I decided to dual boot the box with WinXP/Linux. After trying 3 different distributions of Linux (SuSE, RedHat, and Mandrake) I had to put in a support request. You see, when I put the CD in, it would start to boot, then reboot right away. I -FINALLY- got it to boot off some rescue CD and I thought I would repartition the drive myself and give FreeBSD a go just to see if I could get it to work (FreeBSD has worked out better then Linux on my NX9010 laptop, also by HP/Compaq). So I repartition the drive, reboot and it detected a partition corruption and it -FORCED- me, from the BIOS to re-install WinXP home from the rescue partition. Here was the response I got from HP/Compaq about the issue: --- Dear Travs, Thank you for contacting HP Total Care. I see that you installed Linux in Presario and partition forces to re-install. This is because that the Presario product line was developed for home users utilizing Windows 95, 98, Me, 2000, and Windows XP Home operating systems. Linux is primarily a business application and Presario products were not designed as business systems. Therefore, drivers for devices such as modems and sound cards are not available for Linux. If you would like assistance from an HP technician, please bear in mind that HP will offer all commercially reasonable efforts. This means that support will be offered to the best of the technician's knowledge. If you need further assistance, please reply to this message and we will be happy to assist you further. Regards, Monica HP Total Care --- -- Travis Roy [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Thu, 2005-01-27 at 10:35, Travis Roy wrote: Here was the response I got from HP/Compaq about the issue: Don't feel bad, I got very much the same response from them when I put Win2k on one of their computers that had been 'designed' to run Win98. Just tell a friend and don't buy anymore. It's all you can do. :-) --charlie --- Dear Travs, Thank you for contacting HP Total Care. I see that you installed Linux in Presario and partition forces to re-install. This is because that the Presario product line was developed for home users utilizing Windows 95, 98, Me, 2000, and Windows XP Home operating systems. Linux is primarily a business application and Presario products were not designed as business systems. Therefore, drivers for devices such as modems and sound cards are not available for Linux. If you would like assistance from an HP technician, please bear in mind that HP will offer all commercially reasonable efforts. This means that support will be offered to the best of the technician's knowledge. If you need further assistance, please reply to this message and we will be happy to assist you further. Regards, Monica HP Total Care --- -- Charles Farinella Appropriate Solutions, Inc. (www.AppropriateSolutions.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 603.924.6079 ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Thursday 27 January 2005 10:35 am, Travis Roy wrote: I see that you installed Linux in Presario and partition forces to re-install. This is because that the Presario product line was developed for home users utilizing Windows 95, 98, Me, 2000, and Windows XP Home operating systems. Linux is primarily a business application and Presario products were not designed as business systems. Therefore, drivers for devices such as modems and sound cards are not available for Linux. Wow. I'm surprised I haven't read about this on Slashdot yet. I'd be pretty annoyed if I owned a Compaq/HP and ran into this, but I haven't bought a branded machine in so long that I guess I'm not really their target demographic anyway. I imagine you could find hacks to get around this limitation somewhere... someone's done it I'm sure. -Neil ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Thursday 27 January 2005 10:35 am, Travis Roy wrote: I see that you installed Linux in Presario and partition forces to re-install. This is because that the Presario product line was developed for home users utilizing Windows 95, 98, Me, 2000, and Windows XP Home operating systems. Linux is primarily a business application and Presario products were not designed as business systems. Therefore, drivers for devices such as modems and sound cards are not available for Linux. I've encountered similar things before. In my cases, I found it was a boot partition, not the BIOS, which was enforcing the repair. I just deleted the small boot partition, and rewrote the boot sector, and the problem went away. YMMV. -- Dan Jenkins ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Rastech Inc., Bedford, NH, USA --- 1-603-206-9951 *** Technical Support for over a Quarter Century ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
So I repartition the drive, reboot and it detected a partition corruption and it -FORCED- me, from the BIOS to re-install WinXP home from the rescue partition. (sigh) A middle-finger once again lifted in Linux's general direction. This sort of dainbramage is still too common... Well, IIRC there's that loadlinux.exe (or whatever it's called) that boots Linux directly from Windows. So you could still partition the disk as you'd like but leave the MBR booter untouched. The system would then always boot Windows first but fairly early on you'd run that loadlinux.exe and get the choice of continuing your Windows startup or launching Linux instead. And there's always the option of floppy/CD/USB booters... ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:35:35 -0500 Travis Roy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here was the response I got from HP/Compaq about the issue: Dear Travs, Thank you for contacting HP Total Care. I see that you installed Linux in Presario and partition forces to re-install. This is because that the Presario product line was developed for home users utilizing Windows 95, 98, Me, 2000, and Windows XP Home operating systems. Linux is primarily a business application and Presario products were not designed as business systems. Sure, the language of their response hurts our feelings. (And it's too bad that they seem to be skimming vowels out of your name - you should watch that, they've got you down to 1 already. :) In other words, their tech support isn't run by the brightest bulbs on the tree. It would be better if you were calling for help with XP, of course. Yeah, right. So tech support is a waste of time. On the other hand, note the implication that tech support has heard of Linux! That's news. OK, the party line is a business system, but it's still progress. (And from HP's standpoint it's largely true. It'll be quite a while before they'll support home systems, and even that will only happen when they do the installations.) As to getting Linux installed, an earlier post is probably correct: it's likely to be a bootstrap routine on disk, not CMOS, which is detecting partition corruption. I'd recommend considering giving the machine over to Linux. It's trying to share the machine with Microsoft which is difficult - dual booting is Evil. .015 (25% off!) -Bill ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, at 11:15am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just tell a friend and don't buy anymore. It's all you can do. :-) I disagree. True, word of mouth is great, but a pointed letter to HP/Compaq would definitely be in order. They don't care. Indeed, they want it that way. Presario PCs are as-cheap-as-possible junk desktops. Their sole purpose is to keep money from going to the Dells and Gateways of the world. They don't want them to work really well; that might take sales away from the DeskPro line. Compaq's position is that if you care, you'll buy a DeskPro. In other words, as far as Compaq is concerned, Travis's PC is working as designed. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | | not represent the views or policy of any other person or organization. | | All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, at 11:19am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've encountered similar things before. In my cases, I found it was a boot partition, not the BIOS, which was enforcing the repair. I just deleted the small boot partition, and rewrote the boot sector, and the problem went away. YMMV. Keep in mind that many Compaq's keep the BIOS setup program on disk, where just about everything else keeps it in firmware. That means that if you blow away the utility partition, you can no longer do anything useful to configure the BIOS. This is especially fun when the RAID management utility you need to run to fix your broken RAID array is on the broken RAID array. These same Compaq's do have BIOS routines which scribble in the MBR during POST, but AFAIK, they just play with the active partition flags. -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | | not represent the views or policy of any other person or organization. | | All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
Re: HP/Compaq Presario and Linux
On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, at 11:43am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, IIRC there's that loadlinux.exe (or whatever it's called) LOADLIN.EXE (FYI) ... that boots Linux directly from Windows. To the best of my knowledge, it can only boot Linux from DOS. It needs the system in real mode (circa 1982) so it can bootstrap the kernel successfully. So if Windows is running, LOADLIN won't. (Note that I'm not counting the MS-DOS layer that sits underneath Win9X as running Windows.) And there's always the option of floppy/CD/USB booters... It's a Compaq. I think the best option is a very large hammer... ;-) -- Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] | The opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do | | not represent the views or policy of any other person or organization. | | All information is provided without warranty of any kind. | ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss
