Re: Possible OT: power monitoring
On Jun 16, 2008, at 19:53, Curtis Sandoval wrote: The TrippLite is Tripp Lite OMNI LCD UPS 8 Outlet / 900VA / 475 Watt / Tower UPS With NUT I've had easy success with their SNMP module and all kinds of pain trying to get serial to work (on the same machine where APC serial was a no-brainer). USB is probably better, but if that fails and their SNMP module will work, it works well. -Bill - Bill McGonigle, Owner Work: 603.448.4440 BFC Computing, LLC Home: 603.448.1668 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 603.252.2606 http://www.bfccomputing.com/Page: 603.442.1833 Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/ VCard: http://bfccomputing.com/vcard/bill.vcf ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Possible OT: power monitoring
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Curtis Sandoval [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks very much to all, I got a lot of good information on this and it sounds like there is a consensus to my hunch about daisy chaining being bad. Don't plug a surge suppressor into the UPS either. 1) The UPS manufactures will void any warrenty for protection. 2) Your surge suppressor will become a power tap; the surge components will be ruined by the UPS. I'd imagine the fire dept would look on it badly as well. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Possible OT: power monitoring
All, I have my key systems at home on three UPS battery backups, two TrippLite 900s and a CyberPower 675, all with USB ports for notifying the protected systems of a power failure. I have two questions related to this: Is there a way, using these or other UPS units, to constantly monitor input line voltage and length of outages? I recently had three outages within a week and they seem to have been preceded each time by a few hours of low input voltage (112v-114v) but I'd like to verify that and/or possibly preemptively power down noncritical systems to extend the length of battery coverage. Power quality monitoring would be nice, but my searches seemed to indicate that quality monitoring is much more expensive, and I could find nothing specifically saying that a UPS or quality monitor would report real-time to a computer (specifically SUSE 10.2 or Ubuntu 8.04). Also, is there a way to monitor the power draw of a set of devices (say, plugged into the same power strip and monitor the total) or individual device for the purposes of capacity planning for UPS units, akin to a Kill-a-watt device but with some sort of ability to report its data to a desktop? I have noticed a surprisingly large difference in how long two identical UPS units will last with seemingly similar device loads and would like to be able to determine how large a unit I would need to provide a certain amount of time of backup based on my measurements of average length of (and time between) outages, factoring in recharge times at a given input voltage. I have been looking at getting some new or larger UPS units, and I've noticed there is a nonlinear relationship between price and capacity, which makes me wonder why a person would not buy two or more smaller units and daisy-chain them to get higher capacity and redundancy. Thanks. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Possible OT: power monitoring
Sorry for top posting. I have an apc 1300xs that has the same info a kill-a-watt has. Apcupsd will output that info on the command line. You'd have to poll + parse, but that gets it into the computer for less then $100. I've used apc powerchute in the past to get info also. There was a daemon that could log the voltage, amps, and temp sensors. I have scripts somewhere that will gnuplot it. On 6/16/08, Curtis Sandoval [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All, I have my key systems at home on three UPS battery backups, two TrippLite 900s and a CyberPower 675, all with USB ports for notifying the protected systems of a power failure. I have two questions related to this: Is there a way, using these or other UPS units, to constantly monitor input line voltage and length of outages? I recently had three outages within a week and they seem to have been preceded each time by a few hours of low input voltage (112v-114v) but I'd like to verify that and/or possibly preemptively power down noncritical systems to extend the length of battery coverage. Power quality monitoring would be nice, but my searches seemed to indicate that quality monitoring is much more expensive, and I could find nothing specifically saying that a UPS or quality monitor would report real-time to a computer (specifically SUSE 10.2 or Ubuntu 8.04). Also, is there a way to monitor the power draw of a set of devices (say, plugged into the same power strip and monitor the total) or individual device for the purposes of capacity planning for UPS units, akin to a Kill-a-watt device but with some sort of ability to report its data to a desktop? I have noticed a surprisingly large difference in how long two identical UPS units will last with seemingly similar device loads and would like to be able to determine how large a unit I would need to provide a certain amount of time of backup based on my measurements of average length of (and time between) outages, factoring in recharge times at a given input voltage. I have been looking at getting some new or larger UPS units, and I've noticed there is a nonlinear relationship between price and capacity, which makes me wonder why a person would not buy two or more smaller units and daisy-chain them to get higher capacity and redundancy. Thanks. -- Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Possible OT: power monitoring
Curtis Sandoval wrote: All, I have my key systems at home on three UPS battery backups, two TrippLite 900s and a CyberPower 675, all with USB ports for notifying the protected systems of a power failure. I have two questions related to this: Is there a way, using these or other UPS units, to constantly monitor input line voltage and length of outages? I recently had three outages within a week and they seem to have been preceded each time by a few hours of low input voltage (112v-114v) but I'd like to verify that and/or possibly preemptively power down noncritical systems to extend the length of battery coverage. Power quality monitoring would be nice, but my searches seemed to indicate that quality monitoring is much more expensive, and I could find nothing specifically saying that a UPS or quality monitor would report real-time to a computer (specifically SUSE 10.2 or Ubuntu 8.04). I had a similar problem with cyberpower units. In my case I have an inline generator and those units saw the power from the generator as a power failure. I checked with their tech support and sure enough, anything but 60hz perfect sign wave, perfect input voltage is a no-go. In your case I suspect the same thing is happening. When the grid goes to a low voltage scenario, the ups's are running exclusively from battery like a no power situation. The utter lack of input power conditioning explains why they are so cheap. I replaced them with APC smart UPS units. The APC units come with published input tolerance specs. Sure enough, the APC smartUPS units took a slightly lower input voltage at 58-59 hz and conditioned it, not running off the battery. I gave one of the cyber power units away and the other is now good for propping open a door. (I don't know about the tripplite.) I got the apc XS 1300 retail at staples for about $265. It has input quality and load monitoring that is displayed on the unit's lcd display in addition to the power conditioning. Also, is there a way to monitor the power draw of a set of devices (say, plugged into the same power strip and monitor the total) or individual device for the purposes of capacity planning for UPS units, akin to a Kill-a-watt device but with some sort of ability to report its data to a desktop? I have noticed a surprisingly large difference in how long two identical UPS units will last with seemingly similar device loads and would like to be able to determine how large a unit I would need to provide a certain amount of time of backup based on my measurements of average length of (and time between) outages, factoring in recharge times at a given input voltage. I have been looking at getting some new or larger UPS units, and I've noticed there is a nonlinear relationship between price and capacity, which makes me wonder why a person would not buy two or more smaller units and daisy-chain them to get higher capacity and redundancy. Thanks. ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/ ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
Re: Possible OT: power monitoring
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Curtis Sandoval [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TrippLite 900s and a CyberPower 675 ... [...] Is there a way, using these or other UPS units, to constantly monitor input line voltage and length of outages? Better UPSes can report detailed information like that (sometimes called smart or intelligent). Entry-level models (dumb) often have either no monitoring at all, or just something that tells the PC line power has dropped, and maybe, if you're lucky, low-battery. The dumb models generally use the moral equivalent of a contact-closure. In the old days, they'd most often re-purpose the flow control lines of RS-232 serial ports for this. These days, they do the same thing, but hook the USB up to a USB-to-RS232 serial adapter, since almost nothing has RS-232 ports anymore. The smart models will have an actual data communication protocol, usually run over serial or USB. It often allows for UPS control as well as monitoring. The protocol is usually simplistic and cryptic, but I remember you could hook a VT-220 up to a Ferr-UPS and get a command prompt. :) Based on the info on the manufacturer website, the CyberPower UP625 falls into the dumb category. You won't be getting power quality stats from it. Please clarify TrippLite 900. Checking their website, I find several different products with 900 in their model name. ... a few hours of low input voltage (112v-114v) ... As far as the power company is concerned, 112 VAC is usually not considered low. Anything within 110 to 120 VAC is usually acceptable. Not that that helps you much if your equipment *does* care... Power quality monitoring would be nice, but my searches seemed to indicate that quality monitoring is much more expensive ... Yup. Smart vs dumb is one of the key differentiators between UPSes in different price bands. I could find nothing specifically saying that a UPS or quality monitor would report real-time to a computer (specifically SUSE 10.2 or Ubuntu 8.04). Like anything else, support and features vary with manufacturer and model. Not everything works well with Linux, either. For some models, third-party software is the best bet; for others, the OEM provides good software. I've had experience with various models from APC, TrippLite, and Eaton. Quality and features vary. Nothing was astoundingly bad, nothing blew me away with price/performance. APC is prolly the best-known brand, and sometimes that's reflected in higher prices. (Note that best known is neither necessary nor sufficient for best quality.) I know the APC Smart-UPS line can report information like input voltage, output voltage, load (as a fraction of capacity), battery voltage, runtime remaining, and unit temperature. Their PowerChute software has had various Linux releases of varying functionality and stability. (This information does not constitute an endorsement of APC's products. (The preceding statement does not constitute a condemnation of APC's products.)) TrippLite, Eaton (AKA PowerWare AKA Best Power), and Minute-Man also have smart UPS products, and claim various levels of Linux support. Popular third-party UPS software for Linux includes apcupsd and NUT (Network UPS Tools). Google the project names to learn more. In particular, both projects list hardware known to work with their stuff. YMMV. Caveat emptor. UPS manufacturers love to change things without telling anyone, often selling a very different product under a same or similar name. Their software is sometimes astoundingly badly written. They sometimes regard their communication protocols as proprietary trade secrets. Etc. I have been looking at getting some new or larger UPS units, and I've noticed there is a nonlinear relationship between price and capacity ... Look carefully at the specs. You may be comparing apples to oranges. Some parameters which affect price include: - Load capacity (determines connected equipment) - Battery capacity (determines maximum runtime) - Expandability (external battery packs) - Warranty and equipment coverage - Monitoring capabilities - Output waveform (square wave approximation vs true sine wave) - Transfer time - Operating principle (stand-by vs line interactive vs double conversion vs ferro-resonant vs ...) - Voltage regulation and surge suppression features (these are not inherent in all UPS designs) There are non-technical factors, too. If you're asking for a bigger UPS, manufactures assume you want something better than the bargain-basement crap you usually find at BestBuy, Circuit City, et. al. So the bar for minimum quality is implicitly raised. At the same time, if you're asking for a bigger UPS, manufactures assume you can afford to pay more, and thus charge more simply because they can. makes me wonder why a person would not buy two or more smaller units and daisy-chain them to get higher capacity and redundancy. Daisy-chaining UPSes is sub-optimal at best.
Re: Possible OT: power monitoring
The TrippLite is Tripp Lite OMNI LCD UPS 8 Outlet / 900VA / 475 Watt / Tower UPS, and I agree about the CyberPower, it kept connecting and disconnecting the USB according to the (less important) XP machine that it protects, so I had to remove the USB cable from it to keep the messages from popping up on the taskbar. So far I have not tried to use the USB interconnect on the TrippLites, since one protects my SUSE machine and the other protects a television and some game machines and a cable box. All of these came from Tiger Direct, incidentally, and I think some of my comparison problems come from inconsistent information being provided about the units. Regarding the low line power, it doesn't cause any problems on the UPS but just seems to be a harbinger of a blackout that will involve several blocks around here. Usually this is during or soon after a storm, but the low voltage condition starts well before any storm in all cases I have noticed. May just be a coincidence, but I still get concerned when I don't see a range of 119v-122v like normal. Thanks very much to all, I got a lot of good information on this and it sounds like there is a consensus to my hunch about daisy chaining being bad. 2008/6/16 Ben Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Curtis Sandoval [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TrippLite 900s and a CyberPower 675 ... [...] Is there a way, using these or other UPS units, to constantly monitor input line voltage and length of outages? Better UPSes can report detailed information like that (sometimes called smart or intelligent). Entry-level models (dumb) often have either no monitoring at all, or just something that tells the PC line power has dropped, and maybe, if you're lucky, low-battery. The dumb models generally use the moral equivalent of a contact-closure. In the old days, they'd most often re-purpose the flow control lines of RS-232 serial ports for this. These days, they do the same thing, but hook the USB up to a USB-to-RS232 serial adapter, since almost nothing has RS-232 ports anymore. The smart models will have an actual data communication protocol, usually run over serial or USB. It often allows for UPS control as well as monitoring. The protocol is usually simplistic and cryptic, but I remember you could hook a VT-220 up to a Ferr-UPS and get a command prompt. :) Based on the info on the manufacturer website, the CyberPower UP625 falls into the dumb category. You won't be getting power quality stats from it. Please clarify TrippLite 900. Checking their website, I find several different products with 900 in their model name. ... a few hours of low input voltage (112v-114v) ... As far as the power company is concerned, 112 VAC is usually not considered low. Anything within 110 to 120 VAC is usually acceptable. Not that that helps you much if your equipment *does* care... Power quality monitoring would be nice, but my searches seemed to indicate that quality monitoring is much more expensive ... Yup. Smart vs dumb is one of the key differentiators between UPSes in different price bands. I could find nothing specifically saying that a UPS or quality monitor would report real-time to a computer (specifically SUSE 10.2 or Ubuntu 8.04). Like anything else, support and features vary with manufacturer and model. Not everything works well with Linux, either. For some models, third-party software is the best bet; for others, the OEM provides good software. I've had experience with various models from APC, TrippLite, and Eaton. Quality and features vary. Nothing was astoundingly bad, nothing blew me away with price/performance. APC is prolly the best-known brand, and sometimes that's reflected in higher prices. (Note that best known is neither necessary nor sufficient for best quality.) I know the APC Smart-UPS line can report information like input voltage, output voltage, load (as a fraction of capacity), battery voltage, runtime remaining, and unit temperature. Their PowerChute software has had various Linux releases of varying functionality and stability. (This information does not constitute an endorsement of APC's products. (The preceding statement does not constitute a condemnation of APC's products.)) TrippLite, Eaton (AKA PowerWare AKA Best Power), and Minute-Man also have smart UPS products, and claim various levels of Linux support. Popular third-party UPS software for Linux includes apcupsd and NUT (Network UPS Tools). Google the project names to learn more. In particular, both projects list hardware known to work with their stuff. YMMV. Caveat emptor. UPS manufacturers love to change things without telling anyone, often selling a very different product under a same or similar name. Their software is sometimes astoundingly badly written. They sometimes regard their communication protocols as proprietary trade secrets. Etc. I have
Re: Possible OT: power monitoring
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 7:53 PM, Curtis Sandoval [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The TrippLite is Tripp Lite OMNI LCD UPS 8 Outlet / 900VA / 475 Watt / Tower UPS ... This thing? http://www.tripplite.com/products/product.cfm?productID=3082 Fancy lookin'. It obviously has some line quality monitoring, since it displays info on the LCD. The docs don't make it clear if you can read that info from via software. (You'd think that would be a given, but I've seen stupider things.) But their website does offer their PowerAlert software for Linux. Never tried it myself, but you could give it a shot and see what you get: http://www.tripplite.com/support/download/softwareindex.cfm and I agree about the CyberPower, it kept connecting and disconnecting the USB ... Yah, for just about anything that small and cheap, you can basically count yourself lucky if it holds the load through a two minute outage. All of these came from Tiger Direct, incidentally, and I think some of my comparison problems come from inconsistent information being provided about the units. I find most resellers provide (at best) incomplete information. I recommend checking the mfg websites and doing your downselection based on specs and MSRP. Then shop around for the best price for your chosen unit. Regarding the low line power, it doesn't cause any problems on the UPS but just seems to be a harbinger of a blackout that will involve several blocks around here. Ah, I see. All the UPS monitoring packages I've used (both OEM and third-party) can record data over time. So if you have a smart UPS, you can log the voltage levels. Graphing functionality is often included, too. So yah, that might provide insight into any correlation between voltage and outages. -- Ben ___ gnhlug-discuss mailing list gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org http://mail.gnhlug.org/mailman/listinfo/gnhlug-discuss/
