Re: [Goanet] Orissa Still Burning
From: Robin Viegas robinvie...@hotmail.com [Goanet] Orissa: Fr Edward's orphanage burned a second time FR. EDWARD'S ORPHANAGE IN ORISSA BURNED A SECOND TIME by Nirmala Carvalho The fire was set at night, when there were no police to guard the building. For the Divine Word priest, it is a clear indication that the area is still simmering and that the mission is under constant surveillance. In spite of the latest episode of violence, Fr. Edward is not leaving the village of Padampur: we have to breathe life of hope into these people. 03/27/2009 20:39 Bhubaneshwar (AsiaNews) - For the second time in a few months, a fire has destroyed the orphanage of Fr. Edward Sequeira, in Padampur (Orissa). On the night of March 20, unknown persons set fire to the building, already a target of the first Hindu violence last August. At the time of the first fire, Rajni Majhi, a 20-year-old woman who was helping Fr. Edward as a teacher, was killed. The Divine Word priest was tied up and beaten for more than an hour, and also risked being burned to death (see AsiaNews.it on 04/09/2008 and AsiaNews.it on 05/02/2009). This time there were no deaths, but the orphanage was destroyed. Interviewed by AsiaNews, Fr. Edward says: This setting fire to the Padampur orphanage is a clear indication that the area is still simmering and there is still risk of carnage. The priest lost everything in the fire. He explains that after the first fire, the police were guarding the burnt down orphanage and the night that the police was away, some unknown persons set fire to the place. That is clearly indicative that our Padampur mission is under constant surveillance by certain forces. The orphanage is one of the works that Fr. Edward has been conducting for more than 10 years in the district of Bargarh, in Orissa, located in a backward region where people live in absolute poverty without basic human dignity. The Padampur mission was completely damaged. Most of the people we serve are poor Dalits who have to face the brunt of the atrocities. These poor and marginalized sections of society are ruthlessly exploited and eking out a humiliating existence. Despite attempts on my life - which still continue - my mission is to serve these people in spite of the hostile atmosphere. My ministry is to rehabilitate them and empower them through education, giving them dignity and a potential for self-reliance through vocational training, and making them aware of their rights. Fr. Edward reiterates his intention not to leave Padampur, where he still runs a leper colony. Our mission to serve the marginalized and ostracisied must go on, that is our calling, to serve these people with the love that Christ had for his Church. As a Catholic priest I was ordained to serve, so in spite of the climate of intimidation we have to breathe life of hope into these people. The cross is always be present in the life of a Christian, and this cross brought forth the most powerful fruit of the resurrection. This is our life, the cross of Christ in the face of persecution, and the hope of resurrection. From August of 2008 until February, the violence against Christians in Orissa destroyed 315 villages, 4,648 homes, 252 churches, and 13 schools. 120 people were killed, but some government figures say that 500 died, including 10 religious. There were 54,000 refugees: some of them have returned to their villages, but there are thousands of families still living in government refugee centers or in the forest. Thousands more people have chosen to leave their villages forever and live in the slums of the big cities, simply to avoid returning to the places where the discrimination and violence against Christians continue. http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=enart=14841size=A ***In spite of all discussion on Goanet on what is communalism and who is a communalist, it is painful to read the news about Orissa still burning and India shining in riots, scams and terrorism. We do not need any peer-reviewed scientific articles on this topic. Our scientific literacy is enough for us to judge soundly on events and persons. Enough is enough... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
From: Sandeep Heble sandeephe...@gmail.com Fr Ivo wrote: Can you mention just one? Are there many priests who are, according to you, treating the nuns like servants using the Bible? You are already attributing an error to the Bible, namely that the Bible demeans women. Do you want me to teach you the biblical statements on empowerment of women in the Jewish society? What was Jesus' attitude towards women? -- My response: A quick Google search directed me to several links. Here are just a couple of them which could answer your queries though I cannot vouch for their authenticity. http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/womenbible.htm http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible7.htm Books like the Bible (and those of most other religions) were figments of human imagination written in times when male society was highly dominant treating women like inferior citizens. Concepts like equality were obviously alien in those dark ages. Some of them were even political doctrines intended to subjugate and conquer other races. When science has grown by leaps and bounds, why then does religion stagnate and refuse to grow and evolve? We need to stop taking our holy books to be the infallible words of God. There is a need for a scholarly research of all the religions of the world. The scriptures need to be purged of all instances of hate speeches, irrational thoughts and discriminatory verses. A modern liberal society needs to undertake this kind of an exercise. This is the least it owes to posterity. ***As you already admit, you cannot vouch for their authenticity, when you are directing us to several links provided by Google search and expecting answers from them. A random Google search cannot answer our quest for God. Let us be critical. I am answering you from the Jewish-Christian perspective, since we are discussing about the teaching of the Bible on women. 1.Bible is the Word of God. God has made in history a covenant with the people of Israel and with the whole humankind. Bible is infallible as far as the saving truth is concerned. It is guiding the world even today. I have no doubt about it. 2.Scholarly research on biblical exegesis, history, archaeology, hermeneutics is going on in the Universities throughout the world. 3.Scriptures have to be interpreted, not purged of all instances of hate speeches, irrational thoughts and discriminatory verses that you may find there with your lenses. (As you admit, you will not be able to vouch for the accusing statements). 4.It is Christianity, not Science, that has empowered women, wherever society was enslaving them, including in India. It was a gradual process. Christianity (for that matter also other religions, to some extent) has enlightened the Barbarian hordes and has given us today a place where we can live in a human, rational way, where Science can evolve freely, responsibly and ethically. 5.In the links provided by you there are several basic errors about the Bible and quotations from the Bible. The quotation attributed to the biblical scholar, Father Roland de Vaux, does not give the teaching of the Bible, but the situation of the women in the Jewish society, which was also in the rest of the world. In India there were (and unfortunately there are) worse crimes against women and children... 6.Male chauvinism has always been there. It is there also today. But there is a transformation through Gospel values throughout the world. It is being translated in international laws and declarations of human rights. Jesus has been a Revolutionary in the empowerment of women and ostracised people. The Church continues the work of her Master. I do not know what you have to say about it. I shall need more space to comment on the links that you have provided. India has a lot to do in this field. Religions should help us to do that work. Science cannot provide ethical values to the world. Reason is already enlghtened by Faith, that is what should continue... This is what we are leaving to posterity. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com I would like to correct the misinformation regarding Neuroscience and Physics in Fr. Ivo's post below. Mental processes, thoughts, emotions, volition, consciousness, love, empathy, mystical states and experiences, hallucinations, illusions, delusions and figments of mind are real physical natural phenomena. That is why Science, which deals only with natural phenomena, studies them. Neuroscience has amassed evidence that these phenomena are critically dependent of the activity of the brain. They vanish completely when certain parts of the brain are missing or dead. They can be induced simply by electrically stimulating the relevant parts of the brain. Therefore, these phenomena, which are part of the natural physical reality, emerge from, and are produced by, matter and energy. ***Dr.Santosh should point out clearly where is misinformation regarding Neuroscience in my posting.I have not referred to the phenomena described by him. *Let me correct his statement by giving a fuller version of neuroscientific experiments and precising the terminology. Are all mental processes real physical phenomena like the realities? Or are they representations of realities on neural basis? Neuroscience can study all of them, including the mystical experiences. We can show that these mystical experiences are real, they trigger neural processes and circuits. They are representations of neural changes induced by the reality outside the brain.(This is another epistemological blunder, often repeated by Dr.Santosh). *They cannot be clubbed together indistinctly, they are different representations of different realities and processes. Neuroscience deals with the neuronal changes, yes, but it also interprets and uses different approaches, like therapeutic or integrative approach. For example, neuroscience has to interpret the mystical phenomena. They are not illusions. *Dr Santosh does not answer the questions we are facing, but is trying to divert to some other points. The problem is not with triggering or blocking parts of the brain mechanically. The mystical experiences which the Carmelite sisters are having show that they are triggered from outside, the neuronal representations are in the brain but not from the brain. These changes show that the mystical experiences are not delusions or hallucinations. But they are triggered by the reality outside the brain. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Nuns treated like servants by priests
From: Aires Cabral cabra...@optusnet.com.au Many priests are chauvinists. ***What proof do you have? Are they many, or a few, some, or all? It is no surprise that they treat the nuns like servants. ***Are there many who treat the nuns like servants? On what are you basing this statement? Are there today priests treating the nuns like servants? When they work for the cleanliness of the churches and seminaries and episcopal houses are they servants? When our mothers, sisters or wives work in the kitchen or in the house or in the garden are they servants? Are they servants when they stitch our clothes or wash our garments? Are you using the women in your house as servants? After all there are several passages in the Bible which demean women, and these are used by these priests to treat women as third class citiziens ( second class citiziens are lay men). ***Can you mention just one? Are there many priests who are, according to you, treating the nuns like servants using the Bible? In India there are people, including husbands, who are treating their wives like servants, are they rooted in the several passages found in the Bible? Can Fr Ivo enlighten us with his comments in the matter. ***What comments do you expect from me? That the Bible teaches us to demean women? That the priests are obeying the Bible, if and when they treat nuns like servants? That the Indian husbands treating their wives like servants are following the Bible, the saving Word of God? After all he has said in one of his comments that the Bible is newer wrong! ***You are already attributing an error to the Bible, namely that the Bible demeans women. Do you want me to teach you the biblical statements on empowerment of women in the Jewish society? What was Jesus' attitude towards women? Did I use any time the unqualified statement that the Bible is newer (sic) wrong? Bible is the Word of God, it teaches saving truth. We do not speak about inerrancy, but about the biblical-saving truth, because Bible is not teaching Science or history or geography. But it contains historical nucleus, it has its own geography, because Revelation is historical and spatio-temporal. It has come through the prophets and through Jesus, of Nazareth, the Messiah, the Son of God. It entails pre-scientific and semitic conceptions about the constitution of the world, it corrects mythical conceptions about the origin of the world, and it has its own theological conception of the creation of the Universe (which does not contradict the scientific theory of Evolution). I believe that this is enough for you... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com --- On Sat, 3/28/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: These changes show that the mystical experiences are not delusions or hallucinations. But they are triggered by the reality outside the brain. The above statement is scientifically wrong. If Beauregard had made the above statement in a paper submission to a peer-reviewed journal, then that paper would have been promptly rejected. This clearly demonstrates how Fr. Ivo is misleading Goanetters about neuroscience. It is very unfortunate. ***This is a poor statement... I reject it outright. Let Dr.Santosh reject Mario Beauregard's statement based on a scientific experiment and conclude that the Carmelite nuns are hallucinated, that God is an illusion in the light of neuroscientific experiments, that all believers of the world are mad, schizophrenic people... Let him be satisfied, as Dr.Santosh always expects and demands from any discussion... Let him conclude scientifically whatever he likes or dislikes to his own satisfaction. His knowledge will be the last word for us in neuroscience, namely that the reality experienced by the Carmelite nuns whom they call God is an illusion, a figment of mind, an artifact of imagination; that they are dreaming and hallucinated. Let this absurd conclusion satisfy him and his like-minded colleagues. I have read about the differentiation in neuronal circuits depending on different kinds of religious experiences. But I shall keep it for myself. Let Dr.Santosh (mis-)guide the readers who worship him... Regards. Fr.Ivo Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Inherent evil?
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com --- On Tue, 3/24/09, neil rangel ndjsran...@yahoo.co.in wrote: The use of a condom is inherently evil It is a good thing that most people do not believe the above to be true. Here is information provided by WHO regarding the usefulness of condoms in disease prevention: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs243/en/ ***We have two different kinds of statements: one, ethically the use of condom is inherently evil. Yet, there is human weakness... Another statement in this context is the scientific-technical, prescinding from the ethical aspect, given by the World Health organization, namely that condoms can prevent pregnancy and diseases... Both are valid. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Inherent evil?
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com --- On Thu, 3/26/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: ***We have two different kinds of statements: one, ethically the use of condom is inherently evil. Yet, there is human weakness... Another statement in this context is the scientific-technical, prescinding from the ethical aspect, given by the World Health organization, namely that condoms can prevent pregnancy and diseases... Both are valid. The first statement is NOT valid for more than 5 billion people of this world. The second statement is universally valid. ***I said that the first statement is ethically valid, the second is technically valid. Statistics given by Dr.Santosh do not change the nature of things, only confirm it... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
From: Joao Barros-Pereira joaobarrospere...@gmail.com E M Foster once wrote: I don't believe in belief. ***Do you accept this statement? How many beliefs do you sustain in your life? I share his sentiments as the atheists and theists are really sailing in the same boat: they don't know. ***Is this true? Whether you believe there is a God or you believe there is no God makes no difference. You don't know. ***Is this happening in the lives of the believers? As for theology, if it teaches us about God - what does it really mean? What does about mean - Is God a problem which we can solve through logic and words ...? ***There is a source of knowledge of God, that is precisely what theology is teaching. Our yogis and masters have told us again and again to look within ***You can find God within you and outside you. Btw, discussions don't lead us anywhere, either you know or you don't know. As for me, I don't! ***Believers know, you do not. Therefore, you are agnostic...You can always search and find out... Regards. Fr.Ivo Joao Barros-Pereira
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
From: Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net ...how do experiments in mystical experiences prove anything other than the individuals are having mystical experiences? ***Mystical experiences which are instantiated in the neuronal systems and circuits are not illusions. They are created by a reality outside the brain. Does the reality that God has entered human history because of the beliefs and the personal faith of humans constitute proof that God exists? ***Precisely personal faith is rooted in the history of God's manifestation to humankind. I believe in God who really exists, who has revealed himself in history. It is a surrender to a historical God. . We have to find it out before we go there!... God himself has revealed it, why not listen to him now only? If the existence of God cannot be proven by science, how do we find out for sure before going there? ***Science does not exhaust human knowledge. The knowledge of God goes beyond Science. Theology teaches us about God. It is a rational knowledge, a knowledge rooted in the historical experience of God. It is attested in the Bible and in the history of religions. BTW, if you really believed that the existence of God cannot be either proven or disproven by science, this thread would have ended long ago. ***Not at all! That there is no God because empirical science cannot prove it experimentally is itself pure belief, not science. So the research does not end, because empirical science is not the only source of knowledge. Precisely there it begins. This is a wrong epistemological statement. Isn't God's revelation, accepted by believers, coming from your brain because your brain chooses to believe this because of your faith? ***Faith has its ground. Revelation does not come from our brain. But our Reason sees the reasons to believe and assents. Willpower follows the Reason. There is no conflict between the Reason and Faith. Reason is enlightened by Faith. If we have agreed that science cannot prove the existence of God, what difference does it make what history, written by people of faith, says? In the history written by atheists, there is no God, just people who believe there is a God. ***The history of faith is not rooted in scientific knowledge, but on the God-experience, which is is witnessed to by world history. The history of atheists has also to be investigated.I do not believe that there is a real a-theist. An atheist believes that there is no God. Is it really that a coherent experience of human beings? ***If Dr.Mario had done experiments on global warming, also there would not have been a consensus about its causes. By his study of the mystical phenomena he shows that they are objective. What Beauregard is proving is only that people believe that God exists. ***More than that. That their belief is not an hallucination, or figment of mind. Didn't we know this already? ***We know it. But the atheists do not know it... Do we need experiments to prove this? ***Yes. It is a new chapter in the history of neuroscience which was left in the hands of materialists. No, no! You are not encroaching on my space! That is your space! You can read more and entertain us more! I can feel the power of your brain! ***Oh! No! I would not like to compete with you! Nor do I need recognition! So far I had enough space on Goanet! OK, then. That's settled:-)) ***What is settled? As you have a right to space, all of us have. You write on different topics, let others also do it. As you have power of brain, others also have. You mis-read my text out of context! I hope you keep this in mind when dealing with me:-)) ***You should also keep it in mind when dealing with others... We do not want to compete, but to help and contribute with our talents. Goanet should be an open forum of discussion where we really build up, not destroy one another. I wish you the best of luck, light and God's blessing on your birthday! You can answer all our questions... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
From: Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net As the only real voice of reason, truth and peace on Goanet, I am sorry to inform you that you cannot have it both ways. Why? Because, if I am right, it proves that all this neuroscientific mumbo jumbo on the existence of God is a collossal waste of time and effort. ***Thank you for your interesting and entertaining posting about Science and the existence of God. I agree to disagree with you that because the existence of God cannot be proved or disproved by Science, there is no scientific basis for the mystical experience. It is the human brain that receives the impact of the reality outside it, and therefore my point is that the mystical experience is not an hallucination. It is rooted in the reality. God has entered the human history, we can feel it in history, by effects and consequences, individual and societal. I don't think God cares what some people think. Besides, we will all find out who was right shortly:-)) If I find out before you, I'll be sure to try and let all Goanetters know:-)) ***We have to find it out before we go there!... God himself has revealed it, why not listen to him now only? I am not telling you from my brain, but from God's Revelation accepted by the believers... I am trying to spell out what history and science can tell us about it. Come to think about it, Mario Beauregard may have better luck doing peer reviewed neuroscientific studies on the motives of scientists on both sides of the debate on whether climate change is being caused by humans, and that the sky will fall if we don't do something real soon. That may be a better contribution to humanity:-)) *** As far as I know, this is not his scope in experimenting in neuroscience... You are very welcome, Padre Ivo, though I was not aware that I was encroaching on space that you needed:-)) ***No, no! You are not encroaching on my space! That is your space! You can read more and entertain us more! I'm glad you noticed that the awesome breadth of my never humble coverage is as vast as the deep blue sky:-)) ***I can feel the power of your brain! I'm pretty sure that Goanet is big enough for both of us, but if you need more space, please let me know and I will make space for you, especially now that there is a move afoot to pick entertaining posts for special recognition, since entertaining Goanetters is at the bottom of my list of priorities, whereas you may be a top candidate whether you want to or not. **Oh! No! I would not like to compete with you! Nor do I need recognition! So far I had enough space on Goanet! Just kidding, Padre. Mea maxima culpa:-)) This is entertaining posting, it needs special recognition. I was also kidding... Sans rancune! Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
From: Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net I think such endless discussions in the past have clearly established that a) the hypothesis that a supernatural being exists cannot be proven conclusively by the rigorous standards of science, whereas, b) science is unable to prove conclusively that a supernatural being does not exist. ***You are right. Science cannot prove nor disprove God. Therefore, I am not saying that neuroscientific experiments prove the existence of God. But the following points emerge from neuroscientific experiments: 1. All neuroscientists, whether materialist or nonmaterialist, investigating the neural basis of mental processes-thoughts, emotions, volition, consciousness- are actually experimenting with nonmaterial entities. For instance, we cannot see a feeling such as love and empathy. Yet, love has the power to completely change our lives and relationships. This situation is very similar to that in quantum physics, where physicists are constantly working with nonmaterial concepts, such as fields and strings. 2. The mystical state activated a dozen brain areas (including the temporal lobes) involved in self-awareness, positive emotion, and body representation within space. The conclusion by Dr.Mario Beauregard was that mystical states and experiences are supported by a complex network of regions widely distributed in the brain. This conclusion stands against the notion of a single God spot located in the temporal lobes. 3. Neuroscience can inform us about what is going on in the brain during RSMEs (religious, spiritual, mystical experiences), but cannot teach us anything about God or the supernatural. We come to know about a unique experience and contact with a reality outside the mind. Otherwise, it will be delusion and hallucination. 4. If supernatural reality is accepted on the grounds of faith in God's Revelation, materialistic atheism is based on pure faith, not on Science. Agnostic should reveal his/her ignorance of the Mystery of God, and not state that God is a figment of mind, or delusion or hallucination... If a neuroscientist affirms it, he goes beyond Science. However, as a defender of free speech, I have absolutely no objections to being perversely entertained if I so choose, or move on to some other topic when I have been entertained enough by this one:-)) ***That is your choice. The same happens to us when you are engaged in the discussion of different topics under the sky. The menu is vast. Enjoy whatever you wish, provided that you provide vital space to others too. Thank you! Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com --- On Fri, 3/6/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: ***Dr. Mario Beauregard is a professional neuroscientist. His books have been peer-reviewed and internationally accepted. His authority is being accepted everywhere. I guess, in the face of this malarkey, the best thing to do is to quote how this book was trashed by Douglas Mesner, a professional scientific reviewer. Here is his concluding paragraph. A science book that attempts to justify supernaturalism sometimes holds a certain entertainment value as it attempts to explain away contradictory evidence with contortions of logic. Since The Spiritual Brain merely ignored any data that troubled its thesis, we're denied any such entertainment here. Searching for some redeeming quality, we might be amused at the book's tone as it oscillates from indignant confidence to near-resignation, confessing that the soul's existence cannot be proven. It's similar to the perverse entertainment one might find in witnessing a street-preacher who, while engaged in solo argument ... finds that he is losing. Douglas Alexander Mesner ***Douglas is not addressing the question which is being faced by Dr. Mario. He is just discarding the scientific study on a wrong score: the science book that attempts to justify supernaturalism. This is wrong position of the problem. Dr.Mario is not trying to justify supernaturalism, but to explain the phenomenon of religious emotions released during prayer and communion with God. Douglas is just evading the point and mocking at what he cannot understand or explain.There can be materialist or nonmaterialist interpretation. This is just a joke for me, who am not a professional scientific reviewer... The presence of God is not detected here by scientific test, but the Christian Revelation is the source of this knowledge for the Christians. The basic scientific experiment only confirms it. I feel sorry for the poor Confucianists, Jains, Buddhists and Taoists. The basic scientific experiment must falsify their revelations. ***I feel sorry that Dr.Santosh is diverting the discussion from one point to the other, from the Carmelite nuns to the Buddhists. If Buddhists do not speak of personal God (neither do they accept the epiteth of atheists), then this does not come directly here. Yet, all of them, Buddhists, Confucianists, Jains and Taoists, can have God-experience. For Mario Beauregard, who is a perennialist, anyone can have the contact with God. We have to explain the phenomenon of the Carmelite nuns in terms of changes of neuronal systems and circuits. Is Dr.Santosh saying that neuroscientifically they are hallucinated? This is the crux of the question. Let us bear in mind the following points in the discussion: 1. Science experiments are more limited in scope than Dr. Santosh proposes. The very fact of placebo (or nocebo) shows that belief is so powerful that it often accounts for a large percentage of a drug's supposed effect. 2. Can we say that a religious belief cannot be verified (or falsified) by experiment? Or rather can it be specified so explicitly as to permit an experiment? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. For example, recently, in North America, religious people were found to have a greater belief in their ability to control their own fate than non-religious people. This was considered a surprising finding, because it was assumed that religious people would have a lesser sense of control. 3. High School textbooks on Science, which Dr.Santosh is recommending to me, give only very basic information and - by their very nature - cannot deal with new research or the cutting edge. Most of what we now know about the brain that greatly revised our thinking, was only discovered in the last twenty years and would not likely have found its way into a great many of the high school books from which list members have studied. I consulted some people, who have helped in writing these books, and are familiar with the process. 4. Dr. Mario Beauregard offers his own interpretation of what his many studies have led him to conclude. In his own book, he is allowed to offer his own interpretation, just as Richard Dawkins has been doing. There is nothing unusual or reprehensible about that. Dr.Santosh can stick to his interpretation, but should not find fault with different interpretation. He should, however, answer honestly my question as an agnostic neuroscientist: Are mystical experiences hallucinations? Is Religion or Christian faith hallucination? Is God a figment of mind? Are Christians hallucinated? Are Carmelite nuns, who have passed the test of healthy condition, lunatic, because of their mystical experiences (or communion with God)? 5. Given the fine-tuning of the Universe, the most reasonable explanation is that the Universe is indeed a product of consciousness. Scientists can research. 6. Every scientist starts with certain assumptions while imaging
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com Fr. Ivo wrote: Religion has a scientific basis in universe and human being. This is what Dr.Santosh will not be able to understand... I explain below exactly how Fr. Ivo raises the scientific illiteracy of Goanetters who are unfortunate enough to read his posts in this thread. ***It is so disgusting to read Dr.Santosh harping on the same note of harmful scientism. He is only confirming what I said about his pedantry and illiteracy. Our human existence cannot be reduced to scientific verification alone. It is much more than that. Religion is born with humankind. Questions on origins of universe and humankind are religious and scientific. Religion is in the heart of man, it is a deep human dimension. Religiosity is attested by observation and confirmed by experimentation. History records it. The absurdity in this statement becomes apparent when one asks the question Which religion? ***This is itself absurd. The question is not Which religion?, but the need to answer the deep existential needs. Religion basically is the relationship with the Absolute, whatever may be the modality of the answer. This book is not religious or philosophical. It is scientific. It is based on neuroscientific experiments. I can challenge Dr.Santosh on this point. ***Dr. Mario Beauregard is a professional neuroscientist. His books have been peer-reviewed and internationally accepted. His authority is being accepted everywhere. His authority lies in the experiments and the solutions that he is trying to give to the phenomenon of healthy mystical experiences and the problem of consciousness. I would say that the best preparation for the challenge would be to read a high school textbook on science. ***I do not need to read any high school textbook on science. It is enough the preparation that I have to see how absurd the statements of Dr.Santosh are. On the contrary, Dr.Santosh needs to give a holiday to neuroscience and study all other sciences, including history, anthropology, philosophy, theology, so as to have a holistic, interdisciplinary approach. I do not doubt in principle that a contemplative might contact a reality outside herself during a mystical experience. ***From the experiments conducted by Dr.Mario Beauregard it is clear that (1) religious experiences were normal types of experiences, not aberrations that suggested a pathology and that (2) the mental states involved were unusual; and (3)most mental processes are mediated. The religious, spiritual experiences are mediated, not created by the brain. This is enough for us to accept the reality of the processes. The point that Dr.Mario makes is that the mystical experiences are created by a reality outside the brain. This is a great example of an unscientific claim because it cannot be verified or falsified by a scientific observation or experiment. The supernatural reality outside the brain cannot be objectively detected or measured by independent means. The belief that it does or does not exist is therefore a religious or philosophical belief. ***Again he is committing the same blunder. The experiment shows that it is a relationship to a reality. Otherwise, it will be hallucination. The people are healthy. We Christians believe with reasons in the living presence of the living God. Are the Christians hallucinated? This is the absurd scientific truth that Dr.Santosh is teaching the Goanetters. The presence of God is not detected here by scientific test, but the Christian Revelation is the source of this knowledge for the Christians. The basic scientific experiment only confirms it. Let the neuroscientist not mislead the scientifically illiterate in the name of false science! Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com --- On Tue, 3/3/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: I corrected Dr.Santosh Helekar, who quoted Dr.Mario, saying: the mystical experiences are mediated by several brain regions and systems, and misinterpreted the word mediated as a denial of God's reality. The above assertion is bogus. I did not provide any such interpretation or misinterpretation of the word mediated. Fr. Ivo is clearly fantasizing that he corrected me. He is giving you false information regarding me and recent my post on this topic on Goanet. Here is the link to that post of mine: http://www.mail-archive.com/goanet@lists.goanet.org/msg41867.html Mario Beauregard has published only two short papers on mystical experiences in professional scientific literature. In those papers, he has invoked neither God nor soul in his interpretations. Science has nothing to do with these supernatural concepts. What Fr. Ivo says on the subject of Neuroscience is pure nonsense. ***This is bogus scientific statement. It is logically wrong. Dr.Mario has published a book on The Spiritual Mind. He describes there his experiments and his scientific conclusions. Dr.Mario gave the abstract of his study published in Neuroscience Letters (2006), which was quoted by Dr.Santosh. The conclusion is as follows: These results suggest that mystical experiences are mediated by several brain regions and systems. Dr Santosh interprets it as Science has nothing to do with these supernatural concepts... But he forgets that mediated does not mean created by the brain, as Dr.Mario has clearly discussed in his book, which was written in the light of brain-imaging studies of his doctoral students. Dr.Santosh has interpreted his findings wrongly. The mystical experience is not an illusion. Read his book: The study of consciousness in the twenty-first century promises to be an exciting endeavor. But it will be stymied if the only purpose is to reduce consciousness to something it is not or to demonstrate that it is an illusion (p.277). As we have seen, people who have RSMEs, far from being out of touch, are typically mentally and physically healthy. RSMEs are normal experiences that are positively associated with physical and mental health, because they express a natural spiritual function of the human being. Although one can never prove it from one side only, the data are consistent with an experience in which the experiencers contact a spiritual reality outside their own minds (p.278). With regard to researchign the many issues this book presents, a key question is, what do we mean by the term 'scientific'? If, by 'scientific', we mean 'only those findings that uphold a materialist worldview, our understanding of the human brain will be forever truncated. However, if by 'scientific', we mean 'using the methods and standards of science', then the studies of the neural correlates of meditative and contemplative states are scientific. Specifically, neuroscience can contribute useful information to a discussion of these states. And to the extent that RSMEs are normally associated with better physical and mental health, there is a public benefit in sponsoring neuroscientific research that sheds more light on them. Is the real purpose of science to help us understand the world we live in or to provide support for a specific, narrow view of that world? The choice is ours (p.278). ***Dr.Santosh seems to have, fortunately or unfortunately, a very truncated worldview and a very narrow scientific view. Anyway, he is doing wonderful work in the realm of neurobiology of brain of songbird, zebra finches, human speech disorders, like stuttering and verbal dyspraxia, at the Methodist Neurological Institute, Houston, Texas... We should thank him for such a wonderful contribution! Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com Let me state once again why Fr. Ivo's posts in this thread are compounding the ignorance of Goanetters regarding neuroscience, and making them more scientifically illiterate. ***Dr.Santosh is betraying his own illiteracy with this post. Fr. Ivo does not understand that science has nothing to do with the supernatural concepts of Christianity or any other religion. He keeps trying to mix his religion with science, and misinforms readers in the process. This is also true of his latest attempt at describing what is written in some book that he has read. He seems to believe that what is written in that book are scientific facts. This is a false belief. ***This is not to mix Science with Religion. Religion has a scientific basis in universe and human being. This is what Dr.Santosh will not be able to understand... The book Spiritual Brain written by a neuroscientist called Mario Beauregard and a journalist called Denyse O'Leary is not a scientific book. It is a book about the religious and philosophical beliefs of the neuroscientist Mario Beauregard. Anybody can write such a book, and get it published, because it does not have to go through a rigorous scientific peer review process. The fact that Beauregard happens to be a neuroscientist is incidental. His religious beliefs have no more credibility than those of anybody else. ***Totally wrong. This book is not religious or philosophical. It is scientific. It is based on neuroscientific experiments. I can challenge Dr.Santosh on this point. As I have said before, Beauregard has published two short peer-reviewed scientific papers wherein he has merely recorded the activity of the brain during mystical experiences in Carmelite nuns. That is all. These recordings do not justify a belief or non-belief in supernatural entities such as God or soul. They do not compel anybody, let alone a neuroscientist, to believe anything about materialism or spiritualism. Despite this, in their book Beauregard and O'Leary make wild unscientific speculations about the former's supernatural religious and philosophical beliefs. None of these speculations can ever be experimentally verified or falsified. That is why they are unscientific. They do not contribute anything to the genuine neuroscientific literature. Fr. Ivo has unfortunately been fooled by these unwarranted speculations, and is trying to mislead Goanetters into believing that they are scientific conclusions of a neuroscientist. ***I am not fooled by anyone. We know to discern. I cannot be fooled by the wrong conclusion of Dr.Santosh, namely that the reality of God is illusion, a figment of mind in the name of Science. Dr.Santosh cannot proclaim this as scientific dogma. He also keeps bringing up the word mediated without understanding its meaning in my field of neuroscience. He puts all kinds of words in my mouth in doing so. ***Dr.Santosh cannot fool the readers. The word mediated has been taken from the quotation given by Dr.Santosh from the scientific journal. I have not put it in his mouth. All human experiences are mediated by neuronal systems, but they are not all created, therefore they are not illusion, figment of mind or hallucination. The mystical experience is mediated but not created, as Dr.Mario Beauregard clearly said. The experience of God is not an illusion. What Dr.Santosh accepts is scientific, what he rejects is unscientific... I understand very well the meaning of mediated in every subject, in Physics as well as in Neuroscience. Let him not attribute to me scientific illiteracy. I find illiteracy in his writings. The word mediated has a very specific meaning in biology. In the present context it means that if you block the specific brain activity, you will prevent or abort the spiritual experiences that are mediated by it. Of course, not being a neuroscientist Fr. Ivo is not expected to know this. ***I am expected to know it. I know that if you block the specific brain activity of any emotion, you will abort it. Why only spiritual experiences? The point that Dr.Mario makes is that the mystical experiences are created by a reality outside the brain. Therefore, they are not illusion. By blocking the spiritual experiences, you do not block the existence of the Reality that causes these experiences (namely God and soul). I am expected to know this also... therefore, Dr.Santosh cannot fool the Goanetters. Regards. Fr.Ivo Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: Dr.Mario has published a book on The Spiritual Mind. He describes there his experiments and his scientific conclusions. . But he forgets that mediated does not mean created by the brain, as Dr.Mario has clearly discussed in his book, which was written in the light of brain-imaging studies of his doctoral students.
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience, God and Soul
Dear Goanetters, I am showing from neuroscientific experiments, conducted by neuroscientists, that there is a Reality (that we call God and soul). Dr.Mario Beauregard has shown it. I corrected Dr.Santosh Helekar, who quoted Dr.Mario, saying: the mystical experiences are mediated by several brain regions and systems, and misinterpreted the word mediated as a denial of God's reality. In fact, in means that the mystical experiences (or communion with God) are mediated, not created by the brain. From his book The Spiritual Mind.A Neuroscientist's Case for the Existence of the Soul, Dr.Mario Beauregard Denyse O'Leary, Harper One, New York, 2007, I quote a few relevant passages: There is no need to choose between science and spirituality. But there is certainly a need, as there always has been, to choose between materialism and spirituality. Science cannot prove or disprove the existence of God, nor can it adjudicate controversies between religions on doctrines. But it can rule out inadequate theories of RSMEs (religious, spiritual, and/or mystical experiences) concocted by materialists. The evidence presented in this book has shown that RSMEs are not the outcome of particular genes or neural disorders, nor can they be created merely by the use of a technology (although many cultures attempt to assist them using various methods or technologies). It is also shown that the hard problem of consciousness is simply not resolvable in a materialist frame of reference. But that hard problem ceases to be a problem once we understand the universe itself as a product of consciousness (p.277). Did God Create the Brain or Does the Brain Create God? As we have seen throughout this book, materialist neuroscientists and philosophers hold that mind, consciousness, and self are by-products of the brain's electrical and chemical processes, and that RSMEs are nothing but brain states or delusions created by neural activity. Accordingly these scientists and philosophers believe that there is no spiritual source for RSMEs, that is, they think that the human brain creates these experiences and, in so doing, creates God. As this book has been a refutation of their views from a number of angles, it is only fair that I now set out my own views. We have already seen that RSMEs and their neural correlates do not constitute a direct proof of the existence of God and the spiritual world. It is unlikely that anything can constitute such a proof to a person who is determined to deny their existence. However, demonstrating that specific brain states are associated with RSMEs does not show 6tha6 such experiences are nothing but brain states. And the fact that RSMEs have neural substrates does not mean that they are merely illusions. Thoughts and emotions are also associated with specific brain regions and circuits, but only radical materialists would say that they are illusions merely because that are neurally grounded (see pp.289-295). Materialist neuroscience cannot reduce mind, consciousness, self, and RSMEs to mere neurobiology. I think that the evidence supports the view that individuals who have RSMEs do in fact contact an objectively real force that exists outside themselves. **I had said in my posting of May 21, 2005, that I do admire the effort of Dr.Santosh Helekar to be objective in his beliefs and opinions. I had contact with him on the Goanet for sometime. I understand it, since he is working in the field of neuroscience. I only fear that his beliefs and opinions may not always be shaped by objective facts and scientific evidence... Ivo da C.Souza ***Today I find that I cannot agree with his (mis-)interpretation of the neuroscientific experiment conducted by Dr.Mario Beauregard. He himself should find out why he is wrong, and how he is nurturing the false opinion or belief that Religion is hallucination (though he avoids the word), that God is a figment of mind, that God is not real (he has even misinterpreted the Cardinal Cormack Murphy-O'Connor, Archbishop of Westminster, and made him atheist...) , that all Christians, theologians, religious people, including Hindus, Muslims, Zoroastrians, Sikh, are hallucinated, epileptic people... This is the reason why I have reacted against scientism... My conclusions are as follows: 1. Science points out to God and soul. Science cannot be Religion. 2. Nor there is any conflict between Science and Religion, Faith and Reason. 3. Bible does not teach Science, nor does it contradict it. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] No school for Christian children in Orissa
Dear Editor, It is a pity that Christian children in Orissa are going to suffer in their education. It is a tragedy. How to obviate to it? http://new.asianews.it/index.php?l=enart=14480 The Government will do nothing. Hindu leaders will be happy, if Dalits are kept in illiteracy and slavery. I do not understand how persecution to Christian minorities can continue in our secular country. Violation of human rights in India should be dealt with by international agencies. I hope our Church Authorities will do something for them. Yours Fr.Ivo da C.Souza (Margao, Goa)
Re: [Goanet] Fanatic Christian Principal
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com --- On Mon, 2/9/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: But all religions cannot be equally good. They can also be distorted. We are left with a choice. All ways to a goal are not equally good, we choose the best one. When there are several remedies of different trade marks and medical companies, we choose the best ones. The physician is careful to give what he thinks is the best product for the patients. Which religion is the best? ***I cannot answer for you, since there is no religion for you. God is a figment of mind. Let each one search and find out. Dialogue will help us to find out the answer. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Fanatic Christian Principal
From: marlon menezes goa...@yahoo.com Dear Fr. Ivo, I am equally critical (and supportive) of all religious faiths. I believe there is a place for religion in society and if people wish to believe in something, they should be free to do so. I also support the right of people to proselytize, which includes christian prosetylization in India. ***I am glad that your are critical and supportive of all religious faiths, that you give a space for religion in the human society and in human existence, that you support the right of people to proselytize (I would prefer the word: proclaim what we believe, in words and in deeds, in works of education and care of the needy and abandoned children of God). I should add that religion is a structural dimension of human existence, that all have the right of expression, but it should be in charity and love, in dialogue with others. Listening to others and reacting to them with politeness is certainly the right behaviour. Proclamation is part and parcel of Christianity. It is rooted in God's revelation. This should not lead us to despise others with superiority complex but to dialogue with others. All religions are ways to God, they are salvific means. But all religions cannot be equally good. They can also be distorted. We are left with a choice. All ways to a goal are not equally good, we choose the best one. When there are several remedies of different trade marks and medical companies, we choose the best ones. The physician is careful to give what he thinks is the best product for the patients. It is not the religions that save, but God saves us through religions, cultures and even atheistic beliefs. I hope you know the teaching of the Catholic Church, when you are criticising it... You claim below that you are not a fundamentalist, but then state we know what we claim. You seem to be overly cocky in the undeniable superiority of your religious faith over others - christian uber alles. It seems that your religious beliefs allows for no give and take with other faiths. There is one absolute and it is the christian way. Sorry, but this IS fundamentalism. ***Knowing one's own religion, which we are professing, is necessary. Therefore, I said that we know what we proclaim (not as you wrote: we know what we claim). We do not profess superiority, but our conviction that salvation comes from God, revealed by Jesus of Nazareth. We are in dialogue, by listening and being critical and rational about what we believe, as you are critical (and equally supportive) of all religious faiths. But sorry, this is not fundamentalism. We call fundamentalism the conservative intepretation of Bible which does not take into account the historico-critical exegesis. Creationism would be fundamentalism. But the biblical concept of Creation is not fundamentalism, it does not exclude the theories of Evolution. Interpreting wrongly the Bible and thinking it is the only way is fundamentalism... Bible and Science should be in dialogue. Religion and Science cannot be at odds... Faith and Reason cannot be in conflict... Regards. Fr.Ivo --- On Sat, 2/7/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: I am for dialogue... The Church is rooted in God's Revelation. This is basic to all discussion. We are not fundamentalists, we do not spout venom against hindus and muslims, we know what we proclaim. Marlon may have a bias against religion and religious people, but then this is not a rational attitude. This is a-theistic fundamentalism to the core... If atheism is rational, theism is also rational. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] North East
From: Nascy Caldeira nascy...@yahoo.com.au dear Santosh, U have surely 'lost the plot' much earlier, and now I feel that U are loosing it, and that's for sure! U know what I mean. I nor any goanettors, do not need to be a 'Scientist' or a neurosurgeon/ scientist to 'read you', behind the lines. Keep writing like this and damage your own earlier good reputation! Regards! Nascy Caldeira Down Under. --- On Mon, 9/2/09, Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com wrote: Santosh: Having provided fatality numbers in India from a source that I consider to be multi-partisan Response: An institution linked to the RSS and headed by persons associated with the RSS is considered multipartisan. Ha ha ha!! That was a good joke. Tell us another one, just like the other one, tell us another one too .. ***While reading the news I found the following. I suppose it is reliable information. I have to cut and paste for the readers so as to help ourselves. This helps us to diagnose what is affecting and inffecting our humanity and empathy. Let us forgive them, but be alert! This is violation of human rights. Regards. Fr.Ivo Attackers asked me not to speak to Christians or Muslims Posted by: Ancy S DSouza Paladka mangaloreancathol...@gmail.com Sun Feb 8, 2009 6:22 pm (PST) `Attackers asked me not to speak to Christians or Muslims' Govind D. Belgaumkar and Sudipto Mondal MANGALORE: They wore tilak on their foreheads and kept telling me that non-Hindus are inhuman, Shruthi, a student of St. Aloysius College here, who was attacked by suspected Hindutva activists on Friday for speaking to a Muslim boy while travelling in a bus, said on Sunday. She was reacting to reports that the group which attacked and abducted her was from the Democratic Youth Federation of India. She said that they asked her not to speak to Christians or Muslims because they were inhuman. They insisted that only Hindus are human beings and others are not, she added. This is the third such attack reported in the city in the recent past. On August 24, a bus was intercepted at a prominent junction in the city. A Hindu girl and her Muslim fiancée were dragged out of the bus and assaulted by a group. On August 8, activists of Bajrang Dal stopped a bus in the city and assaulted Syed, Zulfikar and Ameen. The activists took offence to the fact that these youth helped a few girls with their bags as they did not get seat in the bus. Bajrang Dal leader Sudarshan Moodabidri had claimed responsibility for both the attacks. Ms. Shruthi said that the people, who had attacked Shabeeb (her friend), had taken away his cellphone. Shabeeb tried to call his friends when the group surrounded him. She said that she was not able to contact Shabeeb to find out his whereabouts and condition. Source: The Hindu http://www.hindu.com/2009/02/09/stories/2009020954780500.htm
Re: [Goanet] Vatican Plans Galileo Celebrations
From: Dr. U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com This message is in reply to Message: 7, dated: Sun, 8 Feb 2009, from: Fr. Ivo C da Souza on the subject: Vatican Plans Galileo Celebrations My response: I don't mix religion with science or politics with science therefore I just cannot fit into today's politics which is being propagated by you as science with your profound logical thinking. ***This is neither science, nor religion... Who has given you this task on this Forum? My response: who has given me this task in this forum is irrelevant but you being patron of propagating religion to be science please answer my questions convincingly without using twisted language. If not ***Give me one instance in which I have propagated Religion as Science. Thanks! Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Vatican Plans Galileo Celebrations
From: Dr. U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com I still ask you Fr. Ivo for the proof which compels you to say that Catholic Schools are preferred all over India although my earlier response was with regards to our Goa. I maintain my response was equally correct in context with entire India. ***As far as I know, not only in Goa, but also in India, Catholic schools and colleges are preferred, although I cannot give you a scientific statistics here. You can ask the ministers and intellectuals where they did their studies. There is no doubt about the values imparted. That is precisely the reason why the Catholic schools and colleges are preferred. ... I suggest you should contest up-coming election in Goa and be on the platform to propagate your non-science values which according to you is Science. **Thank you for your invitation. You would do a better job in such a political environment. Will you do this..and if you can not than please stop writing non-science religion. ***This is neither science, nor religion... Who has given you this task on this Forum? Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Fanatic Christian Principal
From: marlon menezes goa...@yahoo.com ...Finally, we need to acknowledge and deal with the christian extremists in India too. I have fundamentalist relatives who continuously spout venom against hindus and muslims and view the world in extreme shades of black and white. On Goanet, we have had Inquisition deniers who claim that no hindu temples were destroyed during the early days of Portuguese rule. We currently have a priest who touts the superiority of Christianity over others. If Christians cant clean up their own house, they should not point their fingers at other communities. ***I do appreciate the frank remarks given by Marlon Menezes, who is still in my memory for earlier remarks given on more serious theological and neuroscientific matters (like neuro-chemical basis for religion). Without mentioning my name, he is gently referring to me... I do not intend to delve into the historical issues of Inquisition and destruction of temples now, but only remind that these are historical matters to be studied for a better today, not to repeat the dark ages of those times... if in fact, some unpleasant happenings took place. It is a pity that they are happening today... I am for dialogue. It does not mean that we do not use our reason to discern what is right and wrong. A father, who is living in drunkardness, will certainly advise his children to avoid it. The members of the Church are sinners, but it does not mean that the Church proclaims evil. They need salvation, which only God can give. The Church is rooted in God's Revelation. This is basic to all discussion. We are not fundamentalist, we do not spout venom against hindus and muslims, we know what we proclaim. Marlon may have a bias against religion and religious people, but then this is not a rational attitude. This is a-theistic fundamentalism to the core... If atheism is rational, theism is also rational. Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] Fw: Neuroscience and Soul
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com --- On Mon, 2/2/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@... wrote: Dr.Santosh can learn from me not only about Christianity but also about the correct interpretation of neuroscientific experiments. This is obviously a fantasy. Fr. Ivo is not capable of interpreting neuroscientific experiments correctly because he has not even an elementary education and training in neuroscience, let alone how to conduct neuroscientific research. What is also clear is that he simply does not grasp the main point that I have been repeatedly making. ***I had always interest in the study of brain. I need not conduct neuroscientific research to understand how the brain works. I can also understand Philosophy of Science which guides us in the correct interpretation of scientific discoveries. I have quoted Dr.Mario Beauregard, who is specialized in the field of spiritual neuroscience. I can lean on his shoulders. I would rather depend on him than on the statements of Dr.Santosh (although I do admire him for his dedicated work in the field of neuroscience in Houston, Texas). But the inference is brought by me through common sense, study of Science and of Philosophy. My main point is that the interpretations of neuroscientific experiments do not involve claiming any role for supernatural entities such as god and soul, or any kind of supernatural plane of existence. The services of a Christian theologian are not required to interpret of any of our experiments. This is true even for experiments related to religious experiences. ***Dr.Santosh is missing again the main point. The neuroscientist cannot say that the Reality which has been the origin of neural changes is God or that the brain cannot explain consciousness without the mind or soul. The Christian theologian in this case is not telling the neuroscientist, Dr.Santosh, that he has to accept that the Reality is God, this interpretation is given in the light of Revelation. But the theologian is telling him that the mystical experiences and hence the neuronal changes are caused by a Reality outside the brain. We cannot accept materialistic, physico-chemical explanation of mind. For example, Mario Beauregard, the scientist that Fr. Ivo keeps quoting has published two short papers on mystical experiences in Carmelite nuns. The abstract of one of these short papers is given below: Neural correlates of a mystical experience in Carmelite nuns. Beauregard M, Paquette V. Département de Psychologie, Université de Montréal, Montréal, Que., Canada. mario.beaureg...@... The main goal of this functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) study was to identify the neural correlates of a mystical experience. The brain activity of Carmelite nuns was measured while they were subjectively in a state of union with God. This state was associated with significant loci of activation in the right medial orbitofrontal cortex, right middle temporal cortex, right inferior and superior parietal lobules, right caudate, left medial prefrontal cortex, left anterior cingulate cortex, left inferior parietal lobule, left insula, left caudate, and left brainstem. Other loci of activation were seen in the extra-striate visual cortex. These results suggest that mystical experiences are mediated by several brain regions and systems. ***Thanks for the quotation, which I had already read. What is the meaning of the last sentence, namely that mystical experiences are mediated by several brain regions and systems. This defeats your main point and makes my day. There is nothing intelligent or insightful that Fr. Ivo can say to the authors or to myself on the interpretation that These results suggest that mystical experiences are mediated by several brain regions and systems. ***You are totally wrong in your interpretation. The mystical experiences are mediated (the neuronal correlates are a medium for the mystical experiences, they have a source outside the brain). They are mediated by several brain regions and systems, but they are not caused or created by the brain, as Dr.Mario himself explains Therefore, they are not hallucinations or figments of mind. When the image of the stick passes from the air to the water and we have a broken stick, it is mediated in this form because of a difference of density of medium, from the air to the water, but the reality is outside the water, it is an unbroken stick. When we have the image of a mermaid on our brain, then it is an image without relationship with a mermaid, which does not exist, but it is produced by the brain itself with the help of other akin ideas. But when we have the idea of a chair or an exploding bomb, it is produced by a reality outside the brain. The reality outside the brain produces neuronal correlates. Therefore, the images are not hallucinations or figments in a normal brain. Consistent with what I had told you earlier, the authors of the above paper have concluded nothing
Re: [Goanet] India is shining or burning?
From: Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com This time it is violence in Jabalpur. Yet another BJP ruled state. http://www.ucanews.com/2009/02/03/hindu-radicals-vandalize-catholic-school/ ***While reading this posting, I read another article, entitled India is shining, while orissa is burning and found the interview of Nirmala Carvalho with Father Edward Sequeira. In tears I could think of erosion of values and violation of human rights. I reproduce it from MangaloreanCatholics.com. Regards. Fr.Ivo Nirmala Carvalo interviews Fr. Edward Sequiera Posted by: Nirmala Carvalho mangaloreancathol...@gmail.com salusoz Thu Feb 5, 2009 6:36 am (PST) Fr Edward, one of the first victims in Orissa, meets his attackers by Nirmala Carvalho He was in danger of being burned alive, like his assistant, Rajni Majhi. After a period of recuperation, he has gone back to Orissa to understand the reason for this violence, a personification of evil, but also in order to forgive his attackers. The region is still insecure, and all of the Christians have fled, unable even to participate in the upcoming elections. An appeal to the international community. Bhubaneshwar (AsiaNews) - Fr Edward Sequeira was one of the first victims of the pogrom against Christians launched by Hindu extremists last August in the district of Kandhamal (Orissa). The Divine Word priest worked for years at a leper colony, and in an orphanage for abandoned children. It was there that on August 25 the horde of people he calls terrorists seized him, beat him unconscious, and tried to burn him alive. He was able to save himself from the fire and suffocating smoke when he regained consciousness and shut himself up in the little bathroom in the room. Before losing consciousness again, he heard the screams of one of his young assistants, Rajni Majhi, who was raped, tied up, and thrown into the flames, where she was burned to death (See: AsiaNews.it Fr Edward, survivor of arson in Orissa: the Hindu radicals are terrorists http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=enart=13135size=A). In the interview we present here, he recounts his meeting with his assailants, in order to discover the reason for the violence. But above all, he talks about the humanitarian disaster in Orissa, where more than 50,000 Christians have been uprooted from their land and are now displaced out of the fear that they are still the target of extremist violence. The priest also denounces the political designs that are being realized precisely through attacks on Christians, who will not be able to vote in the upcoming elections. And he asks the international community to take to heart this situation, in which human dignity has been humiliated, so that globalization may also mean international solidarity. Fr Edward Sequeira, SVD, went back to Orissa on the 11th September 2008, after just 9 days in Holy Spirit Hospital. He was back in Mumbai for treatment: his shoulder muscle ligament is torn, and his lungs are still weak, the wounds on his head have healed, but he continuous to have headaches. He showed me the scars of his stitches on his back and hands and legs. He offered up to the Lord the painful mystery of his persecution for graces for his attackers. He moves around incognito, he has grown a beard, and can hardly be recognized, due to concerns over his safety. There are still pressing dangers to his life. He was in hiding for over a month since he returned to Orissa, staying at the Jharsuguda Provincial House in the Sambalpur district of Orissa. He was very weak and has suffered from malaria and typhoid since his return, and kept moving his residence from one mission station to another in the district because of death threats. Fr Edward has been offered a mere 20,000 rupees (315 euros) as compensation for the orphanage (the burnt down jeep is not even being considered). He completed the formalities for compensation in November, and yet nothing has been paid. Fr Edward is saddened by the fact that not a single person from the village testified to the authorities, no one came forward to given witness of either his assault or even about the rape and burning of Rajni. Rajni Majih's parents were given 200,000 rupees as compensation, which was divided between her adopted and biological parents. Fr Edward has visited the Padampur orphanage and the village and leper colony five times since his brutal assault in disguise the entire time. He even visited his attackers in the jail. The priest shares that this is the third time he has beaten in Orissa -1997, 2004, and 2008. In May of this year, he celebrates the twentieth anniversary of his priestly ordination. Such immense gifts, I have received, from the good Lord, who has found me worthy to suffer for His name. 21 people were arrested for the attack on me, the burning of Rajni, and the burning down of the orphanage. Of these, 5 people were from Khuntpalli village, these
Re: [Goanet] Dead Sea Scrolls
From: Dr. U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com Yesterday I was with group of friends and as usual our topic of discussion started from Bollywood to Hollywood to politics to religion. On religion, one of our friend started talking on Dead Sea Scrolls. And none of us were aware of the topic. Later when I returned home, I did a search of what is meant by Dead Sea Scrolls. I got wealth of information on this topic. But still not clear about certain facts. Therefore I request Goanet members to through some light on this topic. I extend this request also to Fr. Ivo, who is a member of Goanet, to educate me on this topic. ***I am glad to know that people have interest not only in politics but also in religion. One of Dr.U.G.Barad's topics has been Dead Sea Scrolls. It is an asset for us to find today most topics in the Internet and choose the best and reliable information. We 'cut and paste' what we think is reliable, 'scientific' information amidst so many versions of the same incidents or facts. Dr.U.G.Barad found wealth of information on this topic (Dead Sea Scrolls). But since still not clear about certain facts, he requests Goanet members to through (sic) some light on this topic, and extends this request to me (to educate me/him on this topic). I do not know what facts are not clear to him. I would reply to him willingly. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com Fr. Ivo wrote: Buddhism is a practical way of life. Christianity is a way of life based on the truths revealed by God himself. This pretty much sums up why we cannot learn about anything other than Christianity from Fr. Ivo. ***I am not going to delve here into the problem: whether Buddhism can be considered to be a religion. Historically, it has several nuances. It is certainly a way of life, it is a philosophy of life. My statement comes in the context of Dalai Lama's speech in Washington. He himself insisted that it was more than a religion, a science of the mind or an inner science. Dr.Santosh can learn from me not only about Christianity but also about the correct interpretation of neuroscientific experiments. As far as neuroscience is concerned, my worry is that he is imparting negative knowledge in this public forum. So let me just bring your knowledge into positive territory. **I do not need to know from Dr.Santosh what Science or Neuroscience is. The most important thing to know is that neuroscience has no interest in god or the soul because these are supernatural constructs. Neuroscience is the scientific study of the brain which is a natural biological object. The only conditions under which this field of knowledge has to deal with anything connected with religion is when people claim to have religious experiences. This can happen normally in fully normal pious people or in some abnormal conditions, such as temporal lobe epilepsy. ***Dr.Santosh is missing the point. I did not question its definition which I have been repeating. I question the conclusion derived from those experiments, as I have mentioned. He conveniently overlooks the main statement, which comes from the authority of Dalai Lama, who has written a book, The Universe in a Single Atom (The Dalai Lama said there would be no point at which his spirituality and his respect for science would come at such odds with each other. Buddhism is not so much a religion, but a 'science of the mind' or an 'inner science' . there is much benefit to learning from [scientists'] findings, he explained at the meeting of Society for Neuroscience at Washington on November 12, 2005), as well as from a neuroscientist, Dr.Mario Beauregard. Unfortunately Dr.Santosh is not learning anything about Christianity from me. He should learn much more from me. The conclusion is that these religious experiences are not 'figments of mind, hallucinations, superstitions... When neuroscientists who are interested in studying what happens inside the brain during these experiences have performed modern tests such as functional MRI, they have found that certain areas of the brain become electrically very active. They have also found differences in brain activation between religious and non-religious people. All this tells us is that such experiences and states of mind are likely to be produced by particular patterns of activity in the brain. ***Thank you for the lesson on neuroscientific experiments. My point is that mystical experiences are not produced by brain, but by the Reality outside the brain. Therefore, they are not hallucinations. Dr.Santosh is doing great disservice to the cause of Science by infering what is wrong, as well as by insulting the Religion. It tells us nothing about the existence or non-existence of any supernatural being or realm. If any neuroscientist tells you that it says something about God or soul or other realities, then he would not be practicing neuroscience. ***Neither can the neuroscientist deny the existence of God and of soul with his experiments in the name of Neuroscience. If he writes a book with such a title, then it is mostly because his publisher wants to create a sensation to sell his book. Either that or the neuroscientist is mixing his religious belief with his science, and misleading the public, which according to me is highly unethical. ***These are unfounded beliefs of the great neuroscientist. These accusations have no scientific ground... Dr.Mario Beauregard speaks of non-material causation of these mystical phenomena, they are not caused by the brain. Dr.Mario Beauregard replies: Q.Are spiritual experiences delusions created by a misfiring brain? A: No. There is no God spot in the brain. Spiritual experiences are complex, like intense experiences with other human beings. There is, however, a mystical state of experience that is not quite the same thing as an emotional state. That does not prove that the mystic contacts something outside herself, but it is consistent with it. Q: Does the brain mediate spiritual experiences? A: Yes, because the brain mediates all experiences of living human beings. That does not mean that the brain creates the experiences. Q: About the God helmet: can we induce a spiritual experience by stimulating the brain magnetically? A: No. As subsequent Swedish research showed, people who believe that they may have a
Re: [Goanet] Priests and their fundamental rights
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From: Dr. U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com Before I agree or disagree with the writer I would request the writer to provide details on the number of education institutions in Goa, as of date, which are run and controlled by Churches (Catholic Organizations included), Hindus organizations, and Muslim Organizations and also number of Hindus, Catholics and Muslims studying in each of these institutions. This factual reality will answer writer's views / expression. ***I did not base myself on any scientific statistics. I know that Catholic schools are preferred all over India. I know that that are so many applications to Catholic schools from Hindus and Muslims. I know that students, studying for some time in excellent schools, are then taken to Catholic schools because of teaching of values... By counting the students and the schools, as U.G.Barad suggests, will not answer the question. The reality will not be uncovered, because there is limited number of Catholic schools and people are seeking both excellence in studies and in values... There is no doubt that the Church is playing a very important role in the education of children. Regards. Fr.Ivo On Thu, 1/29/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: The Church is playing a very important role in the education of children. Most Hindus and Muslims, besides Christians, have taken its benefit...regards. Fr. Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Priests and their fundamental rights
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From: edward desilva guirim...@yahoo.co.uk From: Sandeep Heble sandeepheble at gmail.com Should Priests and other spiritual figures associated with religion enjoy an absolute freedom to preach or should their freedom be a restricted one? ***Yes, provided that they preach with wisdom, responsibility and love (Fr.Ivo). -- Hi Fr Ivo, I did not bother to respond to this topic because. This topic has been dealt with in 'detail' during the elections. (I suppose you have more patience than me). Either some posters here are short of understanding, have short memory OR are pure and simple a chamcha. Are the moderators wasting their time filing away all the topic that was discussed during the elections and etc. topics? Why can't they go back and have a look at what was discussed? ED.. ***I answered this question, because I thought that there were some sweeping statements and accusations... If this point came in the context of elections, it is not limited now to elections. It seems to be a general question. Regarding the elections, priests and spiritual leaders can cerainly guide the people with principles. They should not delve into partisan politics within the premises of the temples or churches, in order to save communion with all the members. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Priests and their fundamental rights
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From: Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.com To: Goa's premiere mailing list, estb. 1994! goanet@lists.goanet.org; chimbel...@yahoo.com --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com wrote: --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in wrote: **The State is not a model in teaching to critically discern the truth. The Church is playing a very important role in the education of children. Most Hindus and Muslims, besides Christians, have taken its benefit... I am not sure what he means by this statement. Does state have no role to play in the education of children? - I agree with Sandeep and Santosh's assertions. Religion should not play a role in the academic syllabus of a progressive, secular state. It is grossly immoral to impart falsities to our children in the name of religion. We have to move beyond the medieval concepts of science and morality that the major religions of this world. ***The State has a very important role in the education of children. People prefer schools where values are also imparted. Catholic schools have the duty of imparting values. In our schools religious teaching is also imparted according to the time-table. Religious teaching should be also progressive. If you refer to creationism, then it is not progressive. But Creation, as taught in the Bible, is not excluding the theory of evolution. Both can be taught in the schools in the Science and Religion classes respectively. Religion does not impart falsities. I would like to learn from you more about medieval concepts of science and morality. regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Priests and their fundamental rights
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From: Sandeep Heble sandeephe...@gmail.com Should Priests and other spiritual figures associated with religion enjoy an absolute freedom to preach or should their freedom be a restricted one? ***Yes, provided that they preach with wisdom, responsibility and love. Our freedom is always situated in the living context... The holy men being citizens do enjoy fundamental rights under the articles of freedom of speech and expression but a Secular State, liberals, critical journalists, scientists and rationalists should not justify their orthodox and retrograde actions simply because they happen to be the men of God. ***That is what freedom of speech is... If you have the freedom to say that there is no God, holy men have the right and duty to proclaim God and to build up a civilization of love... Orthodox or retrograde actions are to be critically assessed... For instance, when we know that the Earth is round, a secular State must not allow the priests to get away with preaching to young innocent minds that the Earth is flat, even though some holy books written a few thousand years ago may have said so. **There is no such stupid priest, nor Scriptures... What Scriptures have contained from pre-critical and pre-scientific times is to be assessed today in the new light. That is what theology and biblical exegesis teach today. You cannot expect to have everything scientifically new in the holy books of those times. They do not teach you science, but truths about God and relationship of humankind with God... The men-in robes should not be allowed to get away with preaching and/or indoctrinating the minds of children and others with values and beliefs which are harmful and incompatible with science and other modern principles like equality, liberty and freedom. ***No men-in-robes will indoctrinate the minds of children with values and beliefs which are harnful. If they are harmful, they cease to be values. They are to be discarded. Bible teaches principles of equality, liberty and freedom already in the times of ignorance and scientific illiteracy... The State needs to deal with these people with the same firmness as it deals with frauds and charlatans. Our children need to grow up to become good rational citizens who will understand to objectively and critically discern the truth. **The State is not a model in teaching to critically discern the truth. The Church is playing a very important role in the education of children. Most Hindus and Muslims, besides Christians, have taken its benefit... regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Mangalore incident : Isnt Ram the problem ?
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From: Frederick FN Noronha f...@goa-india.org Religion probably adopted or reinforced the anti-women bias that society had. I don't think it created it. Btw, how many believe like me (and as visible from cyberdiscussions) that Goan society is extremely MCP? Despite the high education rates of women, their participation in the professional sector, and all that? FN 2009/1/27 Samir Kelekar samir_kele...@yahoo.com: Ram was the God who --- on hearing some washerman gossiping about the chastity of his wife --- sent his wife to Vanavas. That is our Hindu mythology. The inherent disrespect to woman is present in the Hindu religion. Islam is probably worse. Christianity also I am sure gives lesser rights to women. So, is it a big surprise that this incident comes from Ram Sena ? ***Is it dictated by Hindu religion? I doubt. Regarding Christianity, how is it that it gives lesser rights to women? Which rights? Human rights? So, this disrespect to women is inherent in any religion. Still I have hardly found any women who claim to be atheists! ***Therefore, the question is: Is this disrespect to women inherent in any religion? I think that religion should foster respect for women. In Social Teaching of the Church we speak of empowerment of women... Read the Gospels and see how Jesus respected the women. Would atheism give respect to women? Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
human experiences have both physical and spiritual dimensions, research in neuroscience could not reduce the soul to the brain. ***I can quote a neuroscientist who agrees with them. Dr.Mario Beauregard in his book The Spiritual Brain: A Neuroscientist's Case for the Existence of the Soul, says: In the experiement with the nuns, they wanted to see the activation of the brain during the mystical experience. But it cannot be concluded that they are hallucinations, but the experience points out to a Reality beyond them. Today, however, some neuroscientists have claimed to have uncovered the soul and spirituality through brain imaging and mapping, artificial intelligence, computer science in researching the human brain and mind, the priest continued. ***This is true in the sense that with these experiments some of them deny the Reality to which the mystical experiences point out. Contending that the human soul and spirituality are fundamental to all religions, he insisted that religious believers need to challenge the conclusion that new findings demonstrate that brain is the soul. ***If non-materialist view is followed, then there is openness to a Reality beyond. The neuroscientists are contending that God, the human soul and spirituality can be explained in terms of neural networks, neurotransmitters and brain chemistry. And many believers are offended by their notion that God is a creation of the human brain instead of the other way around, he said. ***This is true, when they say that mysticism is a consequence of epileptic state in nuns or it is hallucination or delusion. Richard Dawkins called it God-delusion. He urged religious believers to welcome emerging ideas, but cautioned against blind acceptance. Although neurological studies could shed light on the mysterious workings of the brain, any claim to prove or disprove God through neurological studies must be taken with caution. (The irony of the use of the term blind acceptance by a priest who has to operate on the basis of dogma should not be lost on anybody) ***Dogma is not blind acceptance. It has grounds for credibility. Willpower accepts it because of the One who proposes it. Dogma is not irrational, obsolete, retrograde. It is rooted in God's Revelation He said the human person cannot be reduced to super-conscious matter as asserted by some neuroscientists. Human beings are not hard-wired for belief in God, but deep down, human beings hunger for God, he said. ***It is a question of spiritual dimensionality of human being and his human freedom... It is not a disease, humanity had it from the beginning. Human history has witnessed it. Such experiences, he added, cannot be researched and quantified on the psychological basis of the neuronal functions of the brain. ***As several neuroscientists themselves admit, neuronal functions of the brain do not preclude us from admitting a Reality behind it. Dr.Mario Beauregard replies: Q.Are spiritual experiences delusions created by a misfiring brain? A: No. There is no God spot in the brain. Spiritual experiences are complex, like intense experiences with other human beings. There is, however, a mystical state of experience that is not quite the same thing as an emotional state. That does not prove that the mystic contacts something outside herself, but it is consistent with it. Q: Does the brain mediate spiritual experiences? A: Yes, because the brain mediates all experiences of living human beings. That does not mean that the brain creates the experiences. Q: About the God helmet: can we induce a spiritual experience by stimulating the brain magnetically? A: No. As subsequent Swedish research showed, people who believe that they may have a spiritual experience are more likely to have one. But that is hardly surprising; there is a spiritual dimension to the human being, though many do not recognize it. --- On Sat, 1/24/09, Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@... wrote: ***Totally wrong. Theologians are not poking their nose by speaking of soul, but scientists are poking their nose into religion and theology by denying soul in the name of Science. I have already repeated ad nauseam that the research of scientists is confined to the phenomenal world. Science cannot either prove God and soul or disprove.
Re: [Goanet] Faith can heal
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com Dear Goanetters, We have been discussing a lot on faith and religion. I would like to provide a statement of a physician that Faith can heal. Regards. Fr.Ivo Faith Can Heal, Physician Tells Science Seminar January 23, 2009 LONAVALA, India (UCAN) -- Good health is linked to faith in God, says an Indian physician who has studied the role of religion in medicine. Religious involvement and doing good for others can help maintain one's physical and mental health, S. Chattopadhyay told a recent Church-organized science seminar. Chattopadhyay researched the relevance of religion and spirituality in medicine and bioethics for his master of bioethics program. He holds a doctorate from the University of Connecticut, in the United States, and presently teaches physiology at the Kalinga Institute of Medical Sciences in Bhubaneswar, in Orissa state, eastern India. Neuroscientific Revolution, the Human Soul and Spirituality was the theme of the Jan. 1-5 seminar in Lonavala, near Mumbai, 1,410 kilometers southwest of New Delhi. About 200 people, including university professors, researchers and activists from India and abroad, attended the event. The Indian Institute of Science and Religion (IISR), which Jesuit Father Job Kozhamthadam started 10 years ago, organized the seminar in collaboration with three colleges, a major seminary and a university, all in Maharashtra state. Mumbai is the capital of Maharashtra state. In his presentation, Chattopadhyay spoke on Neuroscience and spirituality: beyond outright rejection and blind acceptance. He said the human person cannot be reduced to super-conscious matter as asserted by some neuroscientists. Human beings are not hard-wired for belief in God, but deep down, human beings hunger for God, he said. He also asserted that faith in God is beyond the intellect and is not something that can be measured. But it triggers love, compassion, empathy, forgiveness, brotherhood and such eternal values among faith people. Faith in God, he said, has played a great role in healing some of the worst diseases suffered by people, such as cancer, and this has surprised doctors. Also, studies have shown that religious people live healthier lives, and are generally happier. He noted that the World Health Organization had accepted spirituality as an important aspect of people's quality of life. The use of scientific tools to explore religious and spiritual phenomena and the knowledge thus acquired have evoked myriad responses, ranging from outright rejection to blind acceptance, he said. Much of modern biomedical research, including neuroscience, reflects reductionism theory, an approach to understand a system by reducing it to component parts. He said spectacular advances have been made using the reductionist scientific approach. However, such an approach cannot fully explain religious experiences, such as spiritual enlightenment achieved by spiritual leaders. Such experiences, he added, cannot be researched and quantified on the psychological basis of the neuronal functions of the brain.
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From: Santosh Helekar chimbel...@yahoo.com Why are these advocates of one particular religion poking their nose into brain science? Why don't they stick to what they are ordained to do - preach their faith to their followers and to those they hope to convert? ***Totally wrong. Theologians are not poking their nose by speaking of soul, but scientists are poking their nose into religion and theology by denying soul in the name of Science. I have already repeated ad nauseam that the research of scientists is confined to the phenomenal world. Science cannot either prove God and soul or disprove. What is offensive from the standpoint of a universal intellectual pursuit such as science, as well as from the perspective of other religions is that they are advising others to be cautious about scientific findings that contradict their own parochial beliefs. The clear implication is that their own religious beliefs about the natural world take precedence over hard scientific evidence. ***Christianity is not parochial, it is open to all. It speaks of Man and of the Universe in the light of Revelation. There is not scientific evidence that there is no God, no soul. Contrast this medieval censorship and interference in non-religious affairs based on the dogma of one solitary religion to the open-mindedness and deference shown to science by Dalai Lama who addressed a gathering of neuroscientists a few years back... ***To speak of God and of soul is not to interfere in non-religious affairs. That is precisely where Science ceases to operate, and Religion reigns. This is not medieval censorship, it is contemporary thought. On the philosophical level, both Buddhism and modern science share a deep suspicion of any notion of absolutes... http://www.mindandlife.org/dalai.lama.sfndc.html **If Science can dispel superstitions, it is most welcome. Science has its limits. The Church works together with the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. Pius XII has been speaking to scientists on scientific subjects, even about the splitting of an atom and the ethical values, and has been well accepted by them. Dalai Lama, who showed his interest in Science and wrote a book on The Universe in a Single Atom, spoke in November of 2005 at the annual meeting of the Society of Neuroscience on the influence of meditation, which is a mental activity, on the brain's circuitry. Buddhism focuses on mental techniques. But Dalai Lama said that he rejects the so-called scientific materialism, namely that the idea of consciousness is no more than a series of chemical reactions in our brain. At that meeting Richard J.Davidson, professor of psychology of the University of Wisconsin at Madison, who presented a study on emotions, on brain circuitry, on insular cortex, said that many scientists have shown it is possible to do research on evolution and still believe in God. That is what I have been saying all the time. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Neuroscience and Soul
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com Dear Goanetters, I have been discussing long ago about the dialogue between Science and Religion. My answers were rooted in the knowledge of Science and Religion. We need to discuss and clarify concepts which may be vital for us all. Let us see what we have to say about soul from the viewpoint of Science and of Religion. ***Soul, God Are Beyond Realm Of Neuroscience, Jesuit Experts Tell Seminar January 22, 2009 LONAVALA, India (UCAN) -- The realities of the soul, spirituality and God-experience remain outside the domain of science, regardless of neuroscientific advancements, two Jesuit scholars stressed at a recent Seminar. Since time immemorial, scientists, philosophers and religious believers have tried to understand the human soul, Father Job Kozhamthadam told about 200 people, including university professors, researchers and activists from India and abroad. The priest said in his keynote address that while all human experiences have both physical and spiritual dimensions, research in neuroscience could not reduce the soul to the brain. The Jan. 1-5 seminar in Lonavala, near Mumbai, 1,410 kilometers southwest of New Delhi, had the theme Neuroscientific Revolution, the Human Soul and Spirituality. Indian Institute of Science and Religion (IISR), which Father Kozhamthadam started 10 years ago in Pune, a town 50 kilometers southwest of Lonavala, initiated the Seminar. The Institute and Jnana Deepa Vidyapeeth (Llight of Knowledge University), the Pontifical Seminary in Pune, of which Father Kozhamthadam is President, organized the Seminar along with three other Colleges and a University, all in Maharashtra state. Father Kozhamthadam, who earned his doctorate in the History and Philosophy of Science in 1986 at the University of Maryland in the United States, spoke on The human soul in a world of science: the neuroscientific revolution and the problem of the soul. The spiritual dimension of human experience has shown itself capable of making its own choices and decisions, at times even against the promptings of the physical, he said. Religious thinkers and religious-minded philosophers have called it the human soul, which, though closely linked to the body, is separate from it and created by God. Today, however, some neuroscientists have claimed to have uncovered the soul and spirituality through brain imaging and mapping, artificial intelligence, computer science in researching the human brain and mind, the priest continued. Some new theories describe the soul as an emergent phenomenon, maintaining that when matter becomes very highly complex, certain special properties emerge, he explained. They portray the mind or soul as a collection of such properties. Such assertions challenge the traditional views of Religion and Spirituality, Father Kozhamthadam said, adding that such challenges will become more serious in the future with further developments in such research. Contending that the human soul and spirituality are fundamental to all religions, he insisted that religious believers need to challenge the conclusion that new findings demonstrate that brain is the soul. The priest clarified that scientific findings shed valuable light on the issue, and hence these efforts must be encouraged, but they leave many serious questions unanswered. He stressed the need for urgent, serious and open-minded dialogue between contemporary religion and modern science to uncover the mysteries of the soul. Father Kuruvilla Pandikattu spoke on The self, soul and the Supreme: the enchanting exploration into and beyond oneself. The neuroscientists are contending that God, the human soul and spirituality can be explained in terms of neural networks, neurotransmitters and brain chemistry. And many believers are offended by their notion that God is a creation of the human brain instead of the other way around, he said. The Jesuit priest and Associate Director of IISR founded Jnanam, the Centre for Science-Religion Dialogue in India, about nine years ago in Pune. He urged religious believers to welcome emerging ideas,
Re: [Goanet] Thousands attend Hindu Congregation at Panjim
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From: Sandeep Heble sandeephe...@gmail.com Fr Ivo writes: How can rational secular leaders give us postings on Christian concept of Salvation? Among the Christians, there is no controversy about the concept of salvation. My Response: Who says there is no controversy among the concepts of salvation among Christians? Just as liberal Hindus do not literally believe in the scriptures of their religion, liberal Christians too do not literally believe in the scriptures of theirs. For the liberal Hindus the cow is just a useful animal and not a holy animal. ***I would like to know what the Hindu scriptures say about the cow. We use scientific methods for the intepretation of the Christian Scriptures. It is not literalistic, fundamentalistic intepretation, which can be wrong. The Church gives direction and guidance to intepret correctly the historical books of Bible. For the liberal Christians, the Christian concept of My God is your God and your God is no God is something they do not take even a wee bit seriously. My Christian friends do not believe that I am a heathen, pagan or a sinner who is destined to go to hell just because I do not believe in their God. ***Although God may be a fictional entity for you, I do not believe that you are a sinner, destined to go to hell. This is not Christian theology. Bible does not teach it. The Church does not say it, even regarding the so-called atheists and agnostics. So there are lots of contradictions in what Christians believe and what Christianity preaches. ***This is your vague, superficial statement. There are no contradictions in Christian theology. The concept of salvation of humankind by God is fundamental to Christian theology. We live in an age of equality. If you have the right to challenge other people's beliefs, then others should have the equal right to challenge your beliefs. Religion can be critiqued by just about everybody. *** Not anybody, without knowing what one is talking about. Religion, as well as, no-religion can be critiqued by everybody, by investigating the truth. Fr Ivo writes: Nobody imposes our religion, we propose it and proclaim it. We give the reasons why we believe. My Response: By the same logic, the Hindu swamis have the right to propose and proclaim their beliefs too, like their belief that the cow is a holy animal. This is exactly what I am trying to suggest. Now you should understand the analogy about the Pope's speech. ***You cannot compare what the Pope has said with what the Hindu Swamis have tried to bring to us. They have already canvassed politically under religious camouflage for votes... Fr Ivo writes: You yourself said, that you do not believe that the cow is sacred (not a holy animal).Cow is certainly not goddess. My Response: If you wish to take my opinion, then neither is the cow a Goddess nor is Jesus Christ a God or a son of God or whatever. Just a human if he was a real historical personality. I would say the same thing about Ram, Krishna and the various other human personalities who have been equated to the status of God. My opinion is from the rational scientific perspective. ***Since you claim to be rational, I would like you to discuss calmly the points. I do congratulate you for your write-up, which I believe is sincere. But it is superficial and full of historical blunders. A cow cannot be goddess. A man could not be God, from the rational viewpoint. The Gospels give us who Jesus was. You are so superficial that treat God as fictional entity as well as Jesus of Nazareth as a 'fiction (if he was a real historical personality). He was a real, historical Person. Read the Gospels and see for yourself why we believe that he is the Messiah, the Son of God. There are Hindu intellectuals who accepted it and converted themselves to Christianity. However, it is sheer hypocrisy on your part when you try to apply the tests of science, logic and reason to challenge the beliefs of others and apply the tests of religion to sanction the beliefs of your own religion. ***You are totally wrong. This is not hypocrisy. I am not applying tests of religion to sanction the beliefs of my own religion, but am applying reason, logic, science, whenever it can be confirmed. Our faith is not irrational, it is rooted in history, reason and at the same time it is a gift of God. You are not applying any criteria for your statements. If
Re: [Goanet] Thousands attend Hindu Congregation at Panjim
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From: Sandeep Heble sandeephe...@gmail.com To: goa...@goanet.org --- My Response: The analogy is not bogus. I was discussing the speeches by the Hindu spiritual leaders and comparing these speeches with the speech of the Pope. In no way was I comparing the Pope's speech with radical actions of Hindutva politicians. Besides, I am only endorsing the parts that I think are right... Even Savarkar said that the cow was just a useful animal and not a holy animal. To me, the cow is as holy as the goat or the pig or any other animal. However, the demand is not a radical demand from the legal standpoint because there are directive principles to that effect in the Constitution of India and even the Courts have ruled in favour of such bans. *** The cow is a useful animal, like so many others. It is not a holy animal, as you yourself admit. Then why to impose it on all? Is this democracy, secularism, pluralism? Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Thousands attend Hindu Congregation at Panjim
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From Sandeep Heble: Fr Ivo writes: Although I find difficult to understand how it is related to the statements of John Paul II regarding the Christian concept of salvation, I give a posting to show how this belief about the sacred cow is not coherently taken by all.' -- This is not so difficult to understand. Evangelism is an integral part of Christianity and the belief that the Cow is holy is an integral part of Hinduism. While Pope John Paul was propagating the beliefs of his own religion in his speech, the Hindu spiritual leaders preached their own beliefs at the Hindu Meet. I too can place here thousands of posts, from modern progressive rational secular leaders, to show how the Christian concept of Salvation is not coherently taken by all. :-)) ***How can rational secular leaders give us postings on Christian concept of Salvation? Among the Christians, there is no controversy about the concept of salvation: God saving humankind. Only God can bring us into his communion, into heaven. What is Evangelism for you? God, revealed by Jesus of Nazareth, is the God in whom we believe. Christians believe that Jesus is God-man. There is only one Incarnation: God became Man in Jesus Christ. There cannot be many gods. For us Christians, there cannot be no-god. Actually, I am of the opinion that there is no atheist in this world, namely who does not accept Absolute..., who does not research for God... How is this an impediment for world peace? The Christian concept of My God is your God and your God is no God is a ridiculous concept. A concept which even Mahatma Gandhi termed as the greatest impediment towards World Peace. ***For Mahatma Gandhi, Truth is God. Certainly, for him the cow is not goddess... Nobody imposes our religion, we propose it and proclaim it. We give the reasons why we believe. You yourself said, that you do not believe that the cow is sacred (not a holy animal). Cow is certainly not goddess. How is it related to the statements of John Paul II? Cow is useful. My contention was that Swamijis cannot impose ban on beef-eating. The article quoted by me was only showing that the Hindus themselves do not believe in it, as you yourself accepted (not a holy animal). There is incoherence in what they are doing... Is untouchability a part of Hindu religion? No cow-slaughter, but man-slaughter, yes... Is caring for the poor and downtrodden a part of Hindu way of life? Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Atheism, obviously an intellectual concept
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From: Mario Goveia mgov...@sbcglobal.net Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:54:27 -0800 (PST) From: Samir Kelekar samir_kele...@yahoo.com .atheism because it is obviously and rightly so an intellectual concept unlike religion which banks on fear and faith. Obviously religion and God(or Gods as Hartman would like to put it though he was a bit scared to say so) is a retrogade concept and the earlier it is gotten rid of, the better, irrespective of the irrational reactions that it may invoke. Mario responds: a) No one has been able to prove that God does not exist, so there is faith involved in atheism as well, not to mention HOPE, because they will be in heap big trouble if they are wrong:-)) ***I found this posting which perhaps could help us all. Regards. Fr.Ivo Priest welcomes atheist advertising campaign Posted by: Ancy S DSouza Paladka mangaloreancathol...@gmail.com Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:33 pm (PST) Priest welcomes atheist advertising campaign A London priest has welcomed an atheist advertising campaign on public transport which was launched last week. Fr. Stephen Wang, from Allen Hall Seminary said: I think it is great to get people thinking. I love the idea of this bus winding its way through the streets of London, and someone stopping to think, 'Mmm...Maybe there is no God...But maybe there is'. Many people simply never think about God or religion as a serious question, and if this prods them a little bit, then that's great Fr. Stephen said: My only sadness is that these posters betray such a negative view of religion - as if religious believers are walking around oppressed by worry all the time. Religion is meant to free us from unnecessary anxiety; it's about living life to the full, living as it is meant to be lived; and knowing that life has a meaning beyond death too. He added that the campaign's slogan: 'There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life' was pretty weak, and full of its own doubts. |It's almost saying 'There probably isn't a God, but maybe there is; think about it more; and think what a difference it would make to your life if there is, he added. Hard-line atheism doesn't make sense. It's simply not rational to say, for example, that there is no ultimate cause behind the whole universe, or that there is no deeper meaning to our lives. I like this advert because it is so hesitant, and in its own casual way it opens you up to very serious religious questions. A total of 200 bendy buses in London and 600 buses across England, Scotland and Wales will carry the ads. The campaign was set up following a fundraising drive prompted by a suggestion from comedy writer Ariane Sherine, who received support from the British Humanist Association and atheist campaigner Richard Dawkins. Ms Sherine had objected to a set of Christian advertisements running on London buses in a piece she wrote for the Guardian in June. Source: ICN
Re: [Goanet] Thousands attend Hindu Congregation at Panjim
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From: Sandeep Heble sandeephe...@gmail.com 1. There are directive principles in the Constitution of India (Article 48) which stipulate the Government to take suitable measures to ensure cow protection and to ensure a total ban on the slaughter of cows and cow progeny. The ban on cow slaughter is also in existence in a majority of States with even the highest Court of the land ruling in favour of these laws. Mahatma Gandhi too advocated a ban on cow slaughter. While I would not disagree that these demands are highly provocative and objectionable from Christian and Muslim perspectives, these demands are well within the framework of the Constitution of India, and therefore there is no legal bar in making them. *Although I find difficult to understand how it is related to the statements of John Paul II regarding the Christian concept of salvation, I give a posting to show how this belief about the sacred cow is not coherently taken by all. Further discussion can always help us, without hurting anyone. Regards. Fr.Ivo Re: If you allow pork and fish, why not beef?: asks former Legislator Posted by: Peter Rodrigues mangaloreancathol...@gmail.com Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:03 pm (PST) That's exactly the point. Nobody can enforce religious decrees/beliefs as a blanket rule on people. Nobody can force people to eat or not to eat beef, based on some religious decree of some prehistoric times. If Muslims do not eat pork, it is simply because they consider a pig to be an unclean animal that eats shit etc. But that is their viewpoint and I know many Muslims who love their pork chops - and our Christian brethren's viewpoint is - What eats the dirtiest, is the tastiest. Nothing wrong with this either. Plainly considering a beast of burden like a cow/bovine as a religious animal is absurd. It even defeats the argument of many Brahmins who do not eat a cow, yet use cow leather to wear sandals, wear leather jackets and have leather sofa sets in their houses. It also defeats the argument that if a cow is considered so sacred, then why do these same upper caste Hindus not take care of those cows that roam in our cities and towns clogging our traffic and creating chaos everywhere, instead of leaving them to suffer and die of hunger, disease, and malnutrition, wherein, many cows end up eating plastic bags that they cannot digest and choke their intestines, and they have a painful death. Why should it be so conditional?
Re: [Goanet] Cow Slaughter
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com From Frederick Noronha: 2009/1/12 Fr. Ivo C da Souza icso...@bsnl.in: A lot of hue and cry is being heard about cow slaughter... If we can discuss about non-existence of God in this Forum, we can certainly hear different opinions about cow slaughter. Hue and cry is a loaded term. It is entirely plausible that, being an issue connected with matters of faith, this is an issue of relevance to those Indians who are non-meat/beef-eaters or in whose religion bestows a place of reverence to the cow (whose role in the economy of the past cannot be questioned). ***We have been eating beef for centuries. Why only now the Swamis, rushing into Goa are speaking of a ban on cow slaughter? For years we Christians ate beef. The Hindus, in princple, were not eating. Many are eating beef and even pork. How can a ban be imposed on beef-eating? Let those who do not want to eat abstain themselves from eating beef, whether for religious or health reasons. It is not unethical to eat cow. Even in Hinduism we can investigate when and for what reasons this prohibition has come up. We respect the religious sensibility of the Hindu brethren. Let them respect our freedom. Christianity/Bible does not forbid us from eating beef. Animals are for our sake. But Man is for his own sake. We should avoid cruelty towards animals and gluttony. Needless to say, the 'cow slaughter' issue is one that has been politicised by those politicians wanting to play on religious feelings. But can't we accept that there are feelings of religiosity behind this too? ***I did not hurt religious feelings of anybody, but I was hurt with the announcement that a ban should be imposed on cow-slaughter! We may not eat much red meat, particularly after some age, but why to impose ban? We still relish pork! Can we kill fruits and plants? Is this not life? Why this type of neo-colonialism in the name of religion? The sentence if we can discuss suggests an attitude of if-you-can-hurt-me-I-can-hurt-you-too. I hope you will tell me that my understanding is wrong. ***Here it is not the question of hurting the feelings of anybody, but of discussing and being reasonable in our statements. If we can discuss about God and no-god (religiosity being a very important dimension of human nature), why we cannot discuss about rituals like beef-eating? I understand how hurt religious/communal feelings can soar out of control though, even with us. ***We should not communalize the issues without any reason. There are also people who do not want to eat beef for health reasons. Let others enjoy it. There is no need of a ban on beef-eating or on alcohol-drinking! Let people grow in maturity and decide! Is it religious to kill people when one is hurt in religious feelings? Btw, after reading an 'animal liberation' magazine about a decade or more ago, I turned veg. Not for religious reasons, though. And I'm a very *veg*. I don't mind eating the gravy of some meat-dish... as long as I don't end up feeling I've added to animal slaughter in the globe :-) You are veg', yet you enjoy delicious gravy of some meat-dish! You would not have gravy without cow or pig slaughter! Our cows should be better treated and not left to death and decay on our dangerous roads. They are in need of 'animal liberation'! Dogs are stray! Nobody is bothered about 'animal care'! Both cows and dogs are dangerous, causing man-slaughter on the roads! For some (inconsistent and unexplained) reason, I still eat fish. Okay, don't tell me that's illogical. I know it is :-) Maybe it has to do with the dietary habits of a Goa, where nearly 95% of the population eats fish, and it's tough to get a decent meal without any fish, unless it's at a Udupi or Gujarati joint (whose food I appreciate too). ***You are against animal slaughter, but not against fish slaughter for your convenience! In Goa we have been eating beef and pork. These are also our dietary habits. Why to ban them without a reason! Vegetables are also very, very costly nowadays! Abortion is bad, and so is cow-slaughter. But do spare a thought for all those bulls, hens, and even fish, who have to make that ultimate sacrifice to ensure that *we* are well-fed! (FN) ***Abortion is a crime! Cow-slaughter is not! In one Indian hotel people were eating flesh of (human) children! In Orissa and Bihar Christian people have been killed because of cow-slaughter! Cows should be spared
[Goanet] Fw: Florida Court Sets Atheist Holy Day!...
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com Dear Goannetters, While I was reading Goanet postings on God's existence or non-existence, I received this write-up which goes here in a lighter vein, amidst the heat generated by 'atheistic postings' for us who do accept God as real, as source of being, as heavenly Father, in spite of all our vicissitudes and sufferings!... Regards. Fr.Ivo FLORIDA COURT SETS ATHEIST HOLY DAY... In Florida, an atheist created a case against the Easter and Passover holy days. He hired an attorney to bring a discrimination case against Christians, Jews and observances of their holy days. The argument was that it was unfair that atheists had no such recognized day(s). The case was brought before a judge. After listening to the passionate presentation by the lawyer, the judge banged his gavel declaring, 'Case dismissed.' The lawyer immediately stood objecting to the ruling saying, 'Your honor, how can you possibly dismiss this case? The Christians have Christmas, Easter, etc. The Jews have Passover, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah, and Hanukkah. Yet my client and all other atheists have no such holidays.' The judge leaned forward in his chair saying, 'But you do. Your client, counsel, is woefully ignorant.' The lawyer said, 'Your Honor, we are unaware of any special observance or holiday for atheists.' The judge said, 'The calendar shows April 1st is 'April Fools' Day.' Psalm 14:1 states: The fool says in his heart, there is no God. Thus, it is the opinion of this court, that if your client says there is no God, then he is a fool. Therefore, April 1st is his day. Court is adjourned. 'AMEN' A person who has come into your life, has come, either to TEACH you something, AND/OR to LEARN something from you
Re: [Goanet] Cow Slaughter
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * ANKA SERVICES For all your Goa-based media needs - Newspapers and Electronic Media Newspaper Adverts, Press Releases, Press Conferences www.ankaservices.com kam...@ankaservices.com Dear Goannetters, A lot of hue and cry is being heard about cow slaughter. Different communities have different customs. Some eat beef, others do not. Yet all of us are called to avoid as much as possible red meat by medical professionalists. I found the following write-up which may help us to see how relative this custom is. If we can discuss about non-existence of God in this Forum, we can certainly hear different opinions about cow slaughter. Regards. Fr.Ivo Hindus eating Beef ? Posted by: Raymond Silveira mangaloreancathol...@gmail.com madscientisttz Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:42 am (PST) Any references to the beef-eating past of ancient Hindus have finally been deleted from Indian school textbooks, after a three-year campaign by religious hardliners. For almost a century history books for primary and middle schools told how in ancient India beef was considered a great delicacy among Hindus-especially among the highest caste-and how veal was offered to Hindu deities during special rituals. The offending chapters have been deleted from new versions of the books which were delivered to schoolchildren last week. However, the National Council of Educational Research and Training [NCERT], which bears responsibility for the texts, now seems to be unhappy with the changes, which were agreed to by a former NCERT director. NCERT counsel Prashant Bhushan said that ancient Hindus were indeed beef-eaters and the council should not have distorted historical facts by deleting the chapters. NCERT has committed a mistake by dropping those facts from the textbooks. It is a victory for Hindu fundamentalists who have lodged a misinformation campaign. Historians should unite against this cowardice by the council [NCERT], said noted Kolkata historian Ashish Bosh Much of this current debate began in 2001 when Professor DN Jha published his book, The Myth of the Holy Cow: Professor Jha stumbled upon the facts relating to the presence of beef in pre-Islamic Vedic India two years ago, while researching Indian dietary habits. He says there is plenty of historical evidence to support the theory. An ancient Hindu text, the Manusmriti (200BC to 200AD), lists the cow as one of several animals whose meat can be eaten. A mention is also made, he says, in one of the two great Indian epics - the Mahabharata - which speaks of beef being a delicacy served to esteemed guests. http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/003484.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1482614.stm
Re: [Goanet] Stirring the communal cauldron
From: Pravin Sabnis pravinsab...@yahoo.com I can personally vouch that my friend, Sandeep Heble is a very sensitive and humane person in reality. His various postings on the Goanet reflect his concern over the communal slants given to various topics. His views can be challenged but to label him a bigot is unfair. We must be careful in condemning somebody just because we disagree with that persons view, facts or opinions. ***I do appreciate discussion on journalistic ethics. Let it be scientifically geared and ethically guided. Let us be secular, even when we speak of Religion, respecting the views of others. Science does not contradict Religion. While reading the news, we need also genuine views. I read different news on Orissa happenings and keep it for myself. Here it is: Protect Christians or step down, India's top court instructs officials Posted by: Ancy S DSouza Paladka mangaloreancathol...@gmail.com salusoz Tue Jan 6, 2009 3:25 pm (PST) Protect Christians or step down, India's top court instructs officials in Orissa (Subscribe to RSS Feed) New Delhi, Jan. 6, 2009 (CWNews.com) - In a searing criticism of the Hindu-nationalist government leadership in Orissa, India's top federal court has said that state leaders should resign if they cannot stop violence against the Christian minority there. We will not accept the persecution of minority. If the state government is unable to protect them, it should resign, declared the federal court. The court was responding to a petition for protection entered by Archbishop Raphael Cheenath of Bhubaneswar. The petition cited the lack of security especially in the Kandhamal district, where thousands of Christians have fled from their homes to escape roaming Hindu mobs. It is the duty of the state government to protect the minority community, the federal court stated. Addressing their criticism directly to government leaders, the judges said that officials in Orissa had offered protection to Christians only after 50,000 people of the minority community fled to the jungles. The orchestrated violence against Christians in Kandhamal was let lose by Hindu groups following the murder of Swami Lakshmanananda Saraswati-- the foremost figure among the Hindu nationalist groups in Orissa-- who was shot dead on August 23. Although Maoist rebels claimed responsibility for the murder, Hindu groups said the murder of the Hindu leader was a Christian conspiracy. In the aftermath of the killing, Hindu mobs attacked Christians in dozens of locations over a period of several weeks, with local police doing little to curb the violence. More than 70 Christians were killed, and over 6,000 homes looted or destroyed along with 200 churches. Roughly half of the 100,000 Christians in the Kandhamal district were driven from their homes. Source: http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=60270 ***Are these communally biased news? Where is the truth? How to reach it? What we want is peace. Let us all struggle for human rights. There is rampant violation of basic human rights in India. Let this Forum help the cause. Let our discussion unite us... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] .... has never been communal / Confidential report in the file
* * * * * * * * * ANNUAL GOANETTERS MEET * * * * * * * * * Goanetters in Goa and visiting meet Jan 6, 2009 at 3.30 pm at Hotel Mandovi (prior to the Goa Sudharop event, which you're also welcome to). Join in for a Dutch dinner -- if we can agree on a venue after the meet. RSVP (confirmations only) 9822122436 or 2409490 or f...@goa-india.org From: Marshall Mendonza mmendonz...@gmail.com Santosh Helekar: We are not dealing with a genuine effort to inform people or discuss issues in an honest manner. Instead, we are seeing a full fledged political campaign to malign and destroy people. Response: Santosh appears to be suffering from some delusion and sees demons where there are none. Even Don Quixote would have been aghast. He then indulges in kite flying. A good story to tell to the birds. This is my last post on this thread. I hope 2009 will bring peace and justice to the people of Orissa. ***I have been reading all the posts in Goanet as well as on mangaloreancathol...@gmail.com regarding Orissa tragedy, which is going on for months without any permanent, effective solution from the Government. Reports are coming on several newspapers, one contradicting the other, certainly with vested interests. There will be also genuine reports. We have to use our logic and common sense, which is becoming less common, so as to find out the truth. Marshall Mendonça has done good work to inform the readers about the tragic facts going on in our secular country. It is difficult for me to assess it and publish what I think is the real version. I keep it for myself, in order to avoid unnecessary controversies. I just read one report about one dalit boy and lost the little trust which I had in Orissa police. Here it is: Dear Sir, This is to draw your kind attention to a very serious incident of gross violation of the child rights and making mockery of the legal provisions, showing how inhuman those very people who are responsible to ensure safety of the people of the country. We refer to an incident that not only exposes the true colour of the Orissa Police but also goes to prove why the image of the police is down the drums in the eyes of the common people and tribals, more particularly at Sundergarh district. I share with you an incident in which few policemen at Ragunathpali Police Station, Rourkela in Sundergarh district have shown their devil face while dealing with innocent civilians. Even they have not cared to follow rules and respect legal provisions. We also take this opportunity to inform you that entire Sundergarh district is in the grip of police excesses with hundreds of false cases booked on tribals. In the instant case, merciless inhuman torture on Master Sanjay Xess was committed to such an extent that he had no choice but to agree to have committed a crime which he has never committed. It is informed that Master Sanjay Xess; a minor tribal boy of twelve years of age has fallen victim to the brutalities committed by the police. Sanjay Xess had run away from his home with Rs. 400/-, being annoyed since he was slapped by his mother for not reading the study books. Later in the night, while he was sleeping outside a house in Chend colony, Rourkela, was picked up by the police and took him to the Ragunathpali police station. He was beaten with stick on his legs, hands, back by tying him with rope and stick forcing him to confess that he has stolen mobile phone and Rs. 2400 from one Nandini's house. It is stated here that Nandini had filed a complaint that her mobile phone and Rs. 2400/- has been stolen. Instead of verifying the facts on its merit, police preferred to torture the boy for three consecutive days just to get a statement by coercing the tender aged tribal boy. The devil face of the police stands exposed as they poured petrol to the anus of the Sanjay Xess. The fear struck tribal boy had no choice but to agree what ever police wanted from him even to confess a crime which he has never committed. This is a very serious matter and cannot be taken lightly. This incident also confirms that there is no rule of law prevailing at Orissa. Only only impunity is being practiced by the government, while showing their face in public. This is one more in the long list of many false cases in which tribals have been implicated falsely at Sundergarh district. No body should live in illusion that they are not accountable. We also request you to please arrange to hold a workshop at Sundergarh district where an open discussion with facts and figures will help to improve the situation and bring in a sense of responsibility amongst the law keepers themselves Under the circumstances, we have no choice but to demand stern penal action against the erring police officials involved
Re: [Goanet] The Right to Convert
From: julian Gonsalves juliangonsal...@yahoo.com I am shocked, saddened and very bothered by these exchanges between Barad and Fr Ivo. ***To correct misunderstandings on religion and conversions is not to stoop so low. I cant imagine that whatever religion we are we can stoop so low. ***You must be used to hear what is happening in India, because religion is a part of our life and a very sensitive issue. I think its time to get out and look within our communities to do something more meaningful to do than to be taking pot shots at each other in this manner( see exchanges below and previously). ***Do not close your eyes to the good that people are doing with the vision and strength derived from Religion. Everyone has a choice in life today and that matters. ***Today is also conditioned by yesterday. History teaches us a lot. But we have to interpret it correctly and decide wisely. What happend in the past is a matter of history and its pure waste of good energy to be doing this. Lets look for how we can brighten our lives irrespective of religion. ***People live by their religion. Religion should help us. Atheists and agnostics have their religion and they are guided by it... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] God sucks
From: edward desilva guirim...@yahoo.co.uk Hi, Funny that. Samir Kelekar wouldn't come with that sort of propaganda against God, during Ganesh or Lakshmi Puja! One sided opinionated people, why are they encouraged on Goanet? Dear Goanetters, I was shocked and saddened to see such words appear on Goanet in the context of God especially on the eve of His Son birthday. I am sure almost all decent Goans will also be repulsed by such language. Warm regards, John D'Souza Moderator Margaonet ***In the name of freedom of religion or no-religion, we come across any statement on God. But such statements do reveal the power of God, who canot be reduced to a fiction or icon. (Even fiction of God can work wonders in human history!...). Christmas is the celebration of the historical birth of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth. And the Word became man and dwelt among us (Jn 1:14). God has been revealed by the historical divine Person of Jesus. This is Christmas, our Christian celebration! Otherwise, it has no value or meaning. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] The Right to Convert
From: Dr. U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com Under subject mentioned as in above, Fr. Ivo C da Souza, on Sat, 12/20/08, makes a good point saying: There have been cases of conversion by force in the 16th century, but that was never an official policy of the European missionaries who worked in India. The First Provincial Council of Goa, held in 1567, forbade the use of force, by decreeing that it is not lawful to bring anyone over to our faith and baptism by means of force with threats or terror, because no one comes to Christ by faith, unless he is drawn by the heavenly Father with voluntary love and prevenient grace (Bullarium Patronatus APP I, p.6). My query: Fr. Ivo, without contesting to your above points and considering what you wrote above is correct; please answer my stupid / ignorant questions: 1) Did Christianity prevailed in Goa much before 1567? **Christianity began to operate in India since 52 of the Christian Era. Missionaries came to India and Goa and changed the face by providing Gospel values. There were missionaries before the Portuguese came. When St.Francis came to Goa on May 6, 1542, there were Christians in Goa. The Society of Jesus worked through institutions. Missionaries did a lot for Goa. Conversions by force, as I said, are not excluded, but there were conversions by free choice and in mass. People would join them. What I affirmed was that the official policy of the missionaries was against conversions by force. 2) In which year Portuguese took over Goa? ***Your question is really stupid. There have been Christians in Goa before 1510. My answer is to your ignorant question. 3) Is the year you quoted (The First Provincial Council of Goa, held in 1567) synchronizes with second point as is mentioned above. If not, The First Provincial Council of Goa, held in 1567 as is mentioned by you is totally wrong. Do you agree with this! ***No, the Council is not wrong. That has been always the policy. You are wrong when you surmise that their policy was conversions by force. Goans of those times were not so ignorant as to follow blindly the colonial masters. There were Christians by choice. 4) How Christianity got spread in Goa after Portuguese started ruling Goa? ***The Church worked for the people of Goa. There were Christians by choice. We are generations of these Christians by choice. Even today I meet Hindu people who are dissatisfied with their religion (of their gods and goddesses, to use their own words), and wish to join the Church and follow the Saviour of the World, Jesus of Nazareth (in their own words). They would be Christians by choice. It is our fundamental human right. I am not elaborating this point, because you refuse to discuss your religion, and also there are Goanetters who do not like discussion on religion at all... 5) What is the percentage of Catholics in Goa as of date? ***Your question is again stupid. You should know the answer. I know it also. But the point that you are making is really stupid, whatever may be the percentage of Christians in Goa today (25 or 23 per cent). There is a great influx of people today in Goa. There are more non-Goans than Goans... The number of Catholics will be naturally less. We are a little flock (only 2.4 per cent), but evangelization continues in India and in Goa, since that is our duty. In the Indian context, the number of Christians is decreasing, because there are re-conversions by force of Dalits to Hinduism even today. Remember that Dalits are not Hindus and they cannot enter the Hindu temples. There are cases of Dalits being killed because they entered the Hindu temples. We cannot measure the work of the Christians in India by numbers. Christianity is a powerful leaven in India. Fr. Ivo, what ever be your explanations, I will not respond to your message. I only need clarification / rather answer from you in this forum. ***I am not elaborating these points, since you do not want explanations. But I have given you clarification and answer to your stupid/ignorant questions (in your own words)... I forgive you for these silly questions, since I am writing after the Midnight Mass on Christmas Day. Forgive me for my blunt answers. May the Lord Jesus bless us all! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] The Unknown Freedom Fighter
From: Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk Fr. Ivo with due respect to you and Sr. Carlos Cruz I have read the most confusing post in a long time. I appreciate you quoting Christ please let the flock learn more, but please devoid telling us that you live in the greatest democracy. It is more of the greatest quagmire left by the British Colonialists. 'But for the oppressed freedom'? Strange statement from Fr. Ivo, and truly paradoxical in the age where the religion that he preaches is under the threat of fundamentalists and terrorists in a 'liberated' Goa. ***This statement comes from the epitaph on the grave of the selfless freedom fighter, Carlos da Cruz. He lived it till his death. It is based on the Gospel values. Jesus said at his inaugural speech in the synagogue of Nazareth, where he revealed his mission: The Spirit of God anointed me and sent me to proclaim the Good News of liberation to the poor, freedom to captives (cf.Luke 4:16-21). Therefore, it is not strange for the Christian communities. There are people who are living it wholeheartedly. ***I do not know what is confusing for him in the post... The Christian community tries to live the teaching of Christ by giving freedom to the oppressed. Regarding the greatest democracy, he has misunderstood what is ironically stated by me: Although we are said to live in the greatest democracy of the world, as everyone knows it, we have yet to learn to respect human rights. Terrorism is going on in the name of religion, basic human rights are being trampled upon... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] An Unknown Freedom Fighter
From: Bernado Colaco ole_...@yahoo.co.uk 'But for the oppressed freedom'? Strange statement from Fr. Ivo, and truly paradoxical in the age where the religion that he preaches is under the threat of fundamentalists and terrorists in a 'liberated' Goa. ***This statement comes from the epitaph on the grave of the selfless freedom fighter, Carlos da Cruz. He lived it till his death. It is based on the Gospel values. Jesus said at his inaugural speech in the synagogue of Nazareth, where he revealed his mission: The Spirit of God anointed me and sent me to proclaim the Good News of liberation to the poor, freedom to captives (cf.Luke 4:16-21). Therefore, it is not strange for the Christian communities. There are people who are living it wholeheartedly. Not only Christianity is under threat of fundamentalists and terrorists, but all religions and ideologies are in danger. It is up to all of us to struggle for the fundamental human rights. Rights of minorities are human rights. Christianity has fought always for human rights. Persecution during the first four centuries could not wipe out a 'religion of love'. Nor can it destroy now. As a leaven, it is powerful. That is the reason for persecution. The 'small flock' is fulfilling its mission. If Goa is to be 'liberated' in the full sense of the word, we need that leaven. We still need freedom in the greatest democracy of the world. Regards. Fr.Ivo He died poor without leaving one pie. He devoted himself for the uplift of the masses. We find these words on his grave: Life for him was a mission,/His daily lot a martyrdom,/Honours and wealth he sought not,/But for the oppressed freedom.
Re: [Goanet] The Right to Convert
From: Carvalho elisabeth_...@yahoo.uk --- On Fri, 12/19/08, Dr. U. G. Barad dr.udayba...@gmail.com wrote: Selma, Right to convert is NOT a basic right in a civil society at least in India. This reply is based on following facts: Article 25(1) of Constitution of India guarantees ''freedom of conscience to every citizen, and not merely to the followers of one particular religion''. --- I'm glad we can atleast agree that the Indian Constitution guarantees the right to free speech in, so that everyone with an opinion is free to express it. Selma ***1) India is a secular state, namely it is not anti-god or anti-religion, but there is separation between the state and religion. All religions have an equal place in India. But we cannot say that all religions are equal. All religions are different ways to God. Each citizen has the right to profess, practise and propagate any religion. The Article 25 of the Indian Constitution deals with the Freedom of Religion. It states that: Subject to public order, morality and health and to other provisions of this part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practise and propagate religion. While dealing with the aspect of conversions, the Supreme Court felt the right to propagate one's religion means the right to communicate a person's beliefs to another person or to expose the tenets of the faith, but would not include the right to 'convert' another person to the former's faith, because the latter person is equally entitled to freedom of conscience (AIR 1977 SC 908). Of course, the latter person is free to adopt another religion, but nobody has the fundamental right to 'convert' him/her to another religion if s/he does not do it out of his/her free choice. This verdict was delivered by a constitution bench of five judges headed by Chief Justice A.N.Ray in the case of Rev.Stanislaus vs State of Madhya Pradesh. 2)There are no conversions by force in Christianity today. But it is an irony that dalits and tribals are being forcibly converted to Hinduism. Dalits turn to Buddhism and neo-Buddhism movements as a social protest. The process of 're-conversion by force' to Hinduism is going on. The government itself functions as a missionary agent to assimilate scheduled castes and tribals into Hinduism. The ill-treatment by caste people forced many dalits to join Chritianity--in the process many changed their way of life and took on European names, dress and ways. Social upward mobility, search for social equality, economic and political factors and opposition to Hinduism are cited as causes by sociologists. The 'untouchables' were in search of equality and betterment of their status by escaping from the tyranny, rigidity, exploitation and oppression. Conversion has become a form of social protest. It is a complete break with their past and with all its painful memories. 3)Hindutva fanatics have raised the bogey of forced conversions by allurements or foreign funds, in order to conceal their real targets. If there are cases of conversions by force or fraud, there is the Law to take stock of these abnormalities. Can they prove even one of such forcible conversion? There have been cases of conversion by force in the 16th century, but that was never an official policy of the European missionaries who worked in India. The First Provincial Council of Goa, held in 1567, forbade the use of force, by decreeing that it is not lawful to bring anyone over to our faith and baptism by means of force with threats or terror, because no one comes to Christ by faith, unless he is drawn by the heavenly Father with voluntary love and prevenient grace (Bullarium Patronatus APP I, p.6). The enthusiasm of the European missionaries and the exclusive mentality of the gone times may attenuate the reality, but will not excuse every violence... We need not be defensive about the colonial past. Mistakes were made and we must apologize for the past... But let the truth prevail: Today there are no conversions by force. The Church does not accept forced conversions. Vatican II provides clear guidelines for the work of evangelization: The Church strictly forbids forcing anyone to embrace the faith, or alluring or enticing people by unworthy techniques. By the same token, she also strongly insists on a person's right not to be deterred from the faith by unjust vexations on the part of others (Ad Gentes, Decree on the Missionary Activity of the Church, n.13). 4)This right to religious freedom has its foundation in the dignity of the human person itself, in the light of the revealed Word of God and the reason itself. This right of the human person to religious freedom is to be recognized in the
Re: [Goanet] An Unknown Freedom Fighter
AN UNKNOWN FREEDOM FIGHTER We do remember our freedom fighters. Each one of them has done a lot for the liberation of Goa. I have come to know about one of them who has remained unknown, though he has been living as a man for others. Professor Carlos da Cruz was a man of character, dedicated, sincere, selfless, who fought for the human rights till his death. He was a man of silence, but a man of action: silent action. He continued to live in silence in the memory of our people. He was a man of calibre. Even stones should be telling about the moral greatness of this man. Carlos Luís Martinho Nazário da Cruz was born on July 28, 1907 in Chandor (Chandrapur), Salsete, Goa. His parents were João Napoleão Víctor da Cruz and Amélia Ritinha Clara Lobo e Cruz. He excelled in several fields: he was a professor/teacher, journalist, freedom fighter, selfless social worker. It is interesting to know about his life so that our youth may emulate him. He studied in the National Lyceum of Panjim (Nova Goa). He was not allowed to finish his studies, because he revealed his independence of spirit. He completed his Escola Normal and did the examination of law, without having finished the 5th year of Lyceum. He was clever and passed his exams with flying colours. He was sent to the backward village of Arambol, where he toiled and moiled for the poor people. He started a night school for the workers. It was the first night school in Goa. He taught them human rights and etiquette. He was writing constructive articles for journals. He was sending articles for «Anglo-Lusitano», but they were not published. Then he began his own paper «Oriente» and continued to fight against injustice perpetrated by the Portuguese Government aginst Goan people. He was transferred to Silvassa, capital of the district of Dadra and Nagar-Haveli (which was belonging to the Portuguese till 1954). He continued to teach and impart the knowledge of the Portuguese language and culture to the simple people. He observed inhuman conditions of the people and worked for them. The people were adivasis, indigenous and primitive. There was a lot of corruption there. He began publishing another journal «Sandalcado», under the name of a river that flows between Great Daman and Small Daman. He was dismissed from the service, nonetheless he continued to work and to fight for the rights. He was imprisoned by Portuguese authorities twelve times, he was really a saviour for those people.He came to know other Goan revolutionaries, like Dr.Tristão Bragança Cunha, and became an active member of the Committee of the Goa Congress. He was also in contact with the nationalist leaders like Ram Manohar Lohia. He was writing to Jawaharlal Nehru on political events of Goa. On August 2, 1954, Nagar-Haveli was liberated and became part and parcel of India. The Government of India named him Public Prosecutor of Nagar-Aveli. Even in this post he worked for the uplift of the adivasis. He died suddenly at the tender age of 51 years, after a brief illness, on August 25 of 1958. While he was ill, he heard the National Anthem on August 2 and rose from his death-bed to salute the Indian National Flag on Dadra's Liberation Day. Then he asked that a handful of earth of his native village of Chandor, which he had fetched, be put in his grave, and breathed his last. He gave one rupee from below his pillow to his wife for his funeral rites. He died poor without leaving one pie. He devoted himself for the uplift of the masses. We find these words on his grave: Life for him was a mission,/His daily lot a martyrdom,/Honours and wealth he sought not,/But for the oppressed freedom.
Re: [Goanet] A time for Father Terry
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] A very moving article written by Karan Thapar. Read on. http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=HomePageid=38bd540e-98aa-4041-aaf6-88717cb2b6c1Headline=A+time+for+Father+Terry ***Dear Marshall Mendonça, I do appreciate your work to find out the truth and give the readers objective views on the events that are unfolding under our eyes. A couple of years ago I gave to the priests, sisters and people from Orissa and other places a Seminar on the Social Teaching of the Church. At that time we came to know that the lives of the priests, religious and people were in danger. Priests were mentioning to me at that time that we are receiving threats through phone calls. I met priests at the Archbishop's House in Bhuvaneshwar, including Father Bernard Digal. The Seminar took place in Berhampur. I could see the horrible roads in that evening. At the Seminar we came to know that there were problems to be faced by them. The problem is not that of conversions by force, but that of integral human development of the poor people. Facts are being gradually unveiled. The truth will prevail. May God himself reward you! Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Government let us down, lament Orissa bishops
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1202648 Dear Marshall, Calmly but firmly our church leaders will affirm life and truth. Let the Government do its work at least now. People have lost faith in police and political leaders. Chaos in India will take us not to the moon, but to poverty and misery... May better sense prevail! Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Scientific literacy
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 1:29 PM, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ***I do not understand the logic of Dr.Santosh. This inability to understand is understandable given the evident lack of clarity about what constitutes genuine science, scientific facts and scientific explanations. Here are some new contradictory statements in this continuing saga of confusion regarding science and the supernatural: ***Dr.Santosh is not understanding even my statements. When I said that I do not understand his logic means that he is not answering the problem raised by the phenomenon. He is merely denying it as non-science. For him there is no God, no miracles, therefore, he just denies whatever we propose as miracle. This is not logic, nor scientific statements. Again, there is no contradiction in my statements at all. That is why I said that : I do not need the scientific statement given by Dr.Santosh. All of us know that scientifically it is not possible (actual conversion of inanimate matter to human tissue). I would rather challenge Dr.Santosh to examine at Lanciano and explain the miraculous phenomenon. There is no argument against the facts. These facts have been accepted by scientists like Dr. Eduardo Linoli. Mere denial of facts does not provide a scientific explanation for the phenomena. ***I stand by what I said. The growing collection of muddles like these archived in this forum illustrates the fact that books and websites on theology and the supernatural do not provide any genuine knowledge about science, irrespective of whether they are written by somebody with a science background or not. ***These are gratuitous slogans repeated by somebody who does not see beyond Science. I cannot expect better answers from Dr.Santosh. He cannot explain these facts... Regards. Fr.Ivo Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] Scientific literacy
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have read books on Eucharistic Miracles written by authors with scientific background. The ignorance about what is meant by science and its purpose continues. Students of science know that a book about the supernatural does not become scientific just because it is written by someone with a scientific background. This would be easily apparent if Fr. Ivo could actually give us the title and the name of the author of any such book that he has read. ***I do not understand the logic of Dr.Santosh. What is he denying? We do not need his help to know what is scientific and not. I would rather challenge Dr.Santosh to examine at Lanciano and explain the miraculous phenomenon. As far as the following re-recycled obscure report is concerned, I have already told you in one of my previous posts why the flawed findings contained in it are worthless. One has to be afflicted with a serious case of credulity to believe that this is evidence for the actual conversion of inanimate matter to human tissue. ***Am I credulous if I do accept the fact examined by Dr.Eduardo Linoli and take it as a miracle? I do not need the scientific statement given by Dr.Santosh. All of us know that scientifically it is not possible (actual conversion of inanimate matter to human tissue). For us Christians it is the consecrated Host, the sacrament of the Body of Christ. The actual conversion of the Host into Flesh and Blood confirms our Faith in the words of Jesus. That is why we call miracle the fact attested by Dr.Eduardo Linoli. It can be seen even today. From all of this most students of science would realize what kind of unreliable fringe material we are dealing with here. ***Why should Dr.Santosh refer to students of Science, as if we are scientifically illiterate? Are his students of Science competent to assess this phenomenon? By the fact that we accept the Eucharistic miracles are we scientifically illiterate? Does he need to tell me that there cannot be actual conversion of inanimate matter to human tissue? But how does Dr.Santosh explain the fact? I do accept it as a miracle and have no problems to tell others about it. Scientists may accept the explanation or not, that does not make any difference. Let them give their scientific explanation. I shall listen to it, provided that they respect the facts. There is no argument against the facts. These facts have been accepted by scientists like Dr. Eduardo Linoli. I know the physical laws, but do accept that this is a miracle, based on the words of Jesus. It continues there for all to see. Mere denial of facts does not provide a scientific explanation for the phenomena. Our Faith is not based on miracles, but this Eucharistic miracle does confirm our faith in the Eucharist. Regards. Fr.Ivo Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dr.Linoli examined the host turned into flesh and blood and concluded that it was cardiac tissue. The scientific value of the statement comes from the research of Dr.Linoli. It is based on the historical report of the miraculous phenomenon.
Re: [Goanet] Denigration of Hindu Gods
From: Laluram Salvi [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Following are the list of abuses from one such book – Satya Darshini – distributed by the missionaries of New Life. This book is in Kannada and the translation of the abusive passage is as follows. Urvashi – the daughter of Lord Vishnu – is a prostitute. Vashitha is the son of this prostitute. He in turn married his own Mother. Such a degraded person is the Guru of the Hindu God Rama. (page 48) When Krishna himself is wallowing in darkness of hell, how can he enlighten others? Since Krishna himself is a shady character, there is a need for us to liberate his misled followers. (page 50) It was Brahma himself who kidnapped Sita. Since Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva were themselves the victims of lust, it is a sin to consider them as Gods.. (page 39) ***Dear Laluram Salvi, I do not know what is your level of knowledge of Hinduism. Yet, it is hurting for your religious feelings what was written by New Life members. I do respect your feelings. The reaction to it cannot be violence against all the Christians, the churches and the houses of prayer throughout three districts of Mangalore, Udupi and Chikmangalur. Action against unauthorized prayer halls cannot be left to militant groups. You can always protest to the members in a peaceful way. There are laws against conversions by force. You have to prove them. Catholic school in Bicholim has been open to all. Never was any conversion by force. Religion cannot lead you to such dastardly acts of vandalism and hooliganism... ...in the premises of Milagres Church in Mangalore, where some miscreants had damaged a Jesus idol. ***Jesus is not an idol for the Christians. It is good that you call them miscreants, as they have proved to be. The VHP and the Bajrang Dal have condemned the attack at this place. ***Everyone with good sense should condemn it. But who has done it? Who owns the responsibility for such a profanation and destruction of the Indian soil and values? Following this incident, a Christian mob gathered and the situation went out of control as the mob started pelting stones and disrupting traffic. The police was forced to intervene and this resulted in unsavoury violence. ***Are you sure of the facts? Which is the source of your information? Even in the Kandhamal murder — which involved the killing of Hindu monk Swami Lakshmananda by missionaries – seems to have caste a shadow on this incident since the general public seems to have seen through Christian aggression. ***Have the missionaries killed the Swamiji? Do you have evidence? Does this false accusation authorize the vandalism which took place in Orissa in the name of Hindu religion? Let peace prevail in our country! Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] Orissa Voilence
From: Laluram Salvi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lot of articles have been written on Goanet on violence in Orissa which reflects only one side of it. Most of the post were influenced by biased opinions of anti Hindu journalist and media. ***Dear Laluram Salvi, I do not know who you are. You know who I am. I do not defend anyone who has done wrong. You speak about one side of it (violence in Orissa). Which is the other side? Do you know well the facts? You have the right to expose them. The Christian fanatics led by the local Congress MP and other hooligans suspected to be from the local chapter of the World Vision of India were responsible for killing the swami and four other people including a woman and two minors. ***Are you sure of the facts? You are involving Christian fanatics (all Christians?), local Congress MP and other hooligans suspected to be from the local chapter of the World Vision of India in the killing of the Swamiji. Who has killed him? Christians, Congress politician and hooligans? Could not Police identify the murderers? This in turn led to retaliation by Swami's followers which led to a violent backlash against churches and Christian missionaries in Orissa. ***Do you agree with it? Retaliation against churches and Christian missionaries in Orissa? Some of them will not even know him. Can you be their spokesman? ...and was a well planned attempt by these missionaries. The WVI is a fundamentalist organization committed to harvesting hatred against hindus in India. ***Again, do you know the facts? Can you club all together? But you will not see any of it in the news. For starters, this ghastly incident was first blamed on Maoists or Naxalites. ***Who has blamed the Maoists? This was a disingenuous attempt to divert the attention away from Christian fanatics who did this. ***Again, are you sure that Christian fanatics did this? If you prove that some Christians did it ---nothing of this has been proved--can you persecute the Christian communities, destroy the churches, orphanages, hospitals, institutions, rape nuns, kill priests, burn social workers, attack schools, kill and bury Christians, who happen to be tribals, poorest of the poor, neglected, ostracised, enslaved by the high-class Hindu communities? ...every newspaper article including the Times of India, Business Standard, NYT, Reuters to name a few - had this in the story - lower caste Hindus tried to convert to Christianity, the evil swami was preventing them, the peaceful Christians suffered and then mysteriously the Maoists killed the swami. ***Again, you are not proving anything. Why is not the Government conducting a probe? Tribals are not Hindus, they are animists and regarded as outcaste by Hindus. Some of them became Buddhists, others Christian, and some Hindus. Yet, they cannot enter the Hindu temples and inter-dine with the higher caste Hindus. Is this not true? What a bunch of lies!!! The Fact is that the swami has been there for the last 42 years doing social service including orphanages for girls and poor Hindus. If he was a Christian, he would have been declared a Father Teresa and awarded the Bharat Ratna. His only drawback is that he is a Hindu. ***Do you know his activity? Whether for 42 years or 24 years, he has done some good. Was he inciting people against the Christians? Was he forcing the tribals for re-conversion to Hindu religion? Being a Christian, Mother Teresa of Calcutta has not converted people by force, she has catered to all without any discrimination, people with maggots, unwanted by all, even by family members, she has not incited anyone to violence. Her secret is that she worked with faith in God for her little brethren, the poorest of the poor. She worked throughout the world through her Congregation of Sisters of Charity. She received all kinds of international awards for the selfless work that she did. Christian missionaries have been working for the poor people in Orissa before 1885. Why could not the Swamiji and his admirers work for the Dalits with the same selfless love? Are these lies? ... the Christian missionaries there are hardly peaceful. They tried to kill the swami some 9 times before and succeeded in the tenth. In this attempt they used automatics and lobbed grenades including killing a small child and a lady. ***Where is the truth? Has anyone investigated it? If the Christian missionaries and people had automatics and lobbed grenades, how could they not defend themselves against the hooligans who destroyed their houses and injured and killed some of them? Precisely because they are peaceful people. Are you sure that these are not a bunch of lies? Hindu can be beaten, bullied, shouted at, abused and the truth will never come out. This is the sad saga of Hindu history over millennia. ***For this you may have to re-write history... Hopefully this act will atleast start some people to question the bonafides of peaceful christianity...In
Re: [Goanet] Scientific literacy
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fr. Ivo wrote: Your scientific method cannot be used, as you only admit. Even now I cannot understand your method for such cases. About your scientific method, it is the method to be used for common clinical cases. The barrage of posts that Fr. Ivo has unleashed on this forum are doing serious damage to the cause of scientific literacy. ***Wrong. You cannot make gratuitous, 'non-scientific affirmations. You do not understand what you are talking about. I am sorry to say. You do not understand your own scientific principles. You gave the pertinent quote from the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, one of the world's most respected scientific organizations, in this regard: 'Science is a way of knowing about the natural world. It is limited to explaining the natural world through natural causes. Science can say nothing about the supernatural.' I do agree totally with this statement. But you do not know what is the meaning of this quote. You are misunderstanding it, as you misunderstood the statements of the Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, Archbishop of Westminster, and reduced him to an atheist and agnostic... Let it be clear: Science can say nothing on the existence of God, Trinity, Resurrection of Jesus, miracles, visions and apparitions, incarnation and reincarnation, soul. The reason is that Science deals with natural phenomena. The supernatural events which take place in history can be documented by historical-scientific evidence. Their interpretation, however, is left to theology. He does not understand the simple fact that science has nothing to do with his religion or anybody else's religion. The amount of mangling and mixing of science he has done with his own theology and religious beliefs is simply mind-boggling. ***Also wrong, as it is clear from what precedes. Theology works together with modern sciences, empirical, social, historical, archaeological. It is wrong to say that Science has nothing to do with Religion. Science cannot have a say on supernatural, by the simple fact that empirical Science deals with natural phenomena. It has no say about Reincarnation, Resurrection, existence of God, miracles. Its role will be to analyse the circumstances of time and space, like history, archaeology, scientific tests, DNA test. There is no conflict between Science and Religion. The one saving grace is that he has finally admitted (see above) that he does not understand the scientific method. ***Again wrong. He is truncating my thought and misunderstanding me. See the text and the context. Your 'scientific method' cannot be used, as you only admit. I am speaking of the double-blind procedure, which cannot be used for rare, extraordinary cases, like miracles. A case of Eucharistic miracles, for example, cannot be tested by this method. I do not know whether the scientist understands this. Then I said: Even now I cannot understand 'your method' for these cases: I did not say that I do not understand 'scientific method', which we have studied already in the initial classes of Science, but even now I cannot understand this method being used for such cases. I repeat: It cannot be used for these cases. There are other scientific methods, where there is also observation, classification, verification, prediction, which will vary for miraculous cases. Only rarely there are changes of white host into Flesh and Blood. In the history there are already 126 Eucharistic miracles at various times and places. In all cases scientific tests have been conducted. If we compare them, in all these cases there is a change from host to flesh and blood. That is why he will never be able to comprehend such things as how the shroud of Turin has been demonstrated to be a 13th century fabrication, ***It is scientifically wrong to say that the Shroud of Turin has been demonstrated to be a 13th century fabrication. It cannot be. It is coming from the first century: I shall mention scientific tests and historical proof in another posting. or the fact that he is doing a disservice to science and to the scientific community by using scientific ignorance rather than pure faith as a prop to validate his particular supernatural beliefs. ***This is completely wrong. Dr.Santosh is living in his scientific ivory tower. By going outside his competence, as it is clear from the quote above, Dr.Santosh is doing disservice to Science and to the progress of humankind. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] It is just not so!
From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] Notes of Chapter 6: Cracking Da Vinci's Code - You have read the fiction, now read the facts by GJ False statements of DB in the 'Da Vinci Code': 1. The Bible is a product of man .. (pg 241) 2. The New Testament is false testimony (pg 342) 3 The Bible was compiled by men with a political agenda (pg 234) 4. The main player in compiling the bible was Emperor Constantine (pg 234) --The New Testament was written within 50 years after Christ and was widely circulated throughout the Christian communities in the 'known world' The Church did not create the New Testament. It is the New Testament that created the Church. --The Bible is in its main is an eye witness account of Jesus. The writings of the second generation of believers (post-apostles) around 100 already refer to the scripture... Hence the New Testament was not written in 425 AD and was not invented by Constantine. ***Well done, Dr.Gilbert Lawrence. Our duty is to enlighten those who are in error. If Da Vinci Code is a fiction, let people know why it is a fiction and not history. Being a scientist and oncologist, you have proved your knowledge of Christianity. Your faith is also confirmed by literary, historical, documentary, scientific evidence. Faith is God's gift, response to God's Word. It is inner illumination given by God, enlightening our Reason, not pure/'blind belief or superstition or 'fairy tales. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] It is just not so!
From: Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ***Well done, Dr.Gilbert Lawrence. Our duty is to enlighten those who are in error. If Da Vinci Code is a fiction, let people know why it is a fiction and not history. Being a scientist and oncologist, you have proved your knowledge of Christianity. - Forgive me for being in a really vile mood this morning but I've just read that 10 more churches have been burnt in India. Now, somehow this bears a striking resemblance to Nero. ***It is not a compliment to you, Selma, that you are moody this morning. But what you wrote is correct: burning of churches in Kandhmal is a dastardly act. The Christians have been held responsible for the death of Swamiji Laksamananda Saraswati. History repeats itself: When in 64 CE. the Great Fire ravaged Rome for six days, Nero had blamed the Christians as scapegoats. While Christians in India are burning, you and Gilbert Lawrence are writing about Dan Brown, DA Vince Code and miracles in some obscure place in Europe. I cannot fathom the minds of religious people, but their priorities seem a bit skewed to me. ***We have been writing on these topics since long. We are not forgetting our brethren of India, nor failing to experience pain for the destruction of poor India and of poor Kandhmal and Orissa... Christians have been persecuted for the good done to the world. Jesus was also persecuted, yet he shed light. Now forgive me again for being even more impertinent, but being a scientist and an oncologist does not qualify Gilbert to have any more knowledge of Christianity, than that raving, lunatic lady I met on the number 22 bus... ***I cannot judge the knowledge of that lady-traveller, whom you are judging as raving, lunatic... I praised Dr.Gilbert, who is a scientist and oncologist, for having written on the historicity of Gospels. I am judging his knowledge of Christianity from his postings. It was a praiseworthy effort to refute the fiction in the Da Vinci Code. He is qualified to write on Gospels, not because he is an oncologist, but because of his personal study. There is no conflict between Science and Bible. ... It's too much to hear about miracles and being saved, when our people are being burned and raped. **It is precisely with faith in the saving God that the people suffered persecution courageously... It is horrible what is happening in our democratic country: terrible violation of human rights. Inspite of all the persecution on the part of vested interests, the Church will continue to do good in India and throughout the world... Thanks for your emotional outbursts! We do respect your feelings. We do share them. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Miracles
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- On Tue, 8/26/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dr.Santosh asked for a double-blind control (read below), admitting himself that this is difficult for such rare cases. The proposed method itself excludes all miracles. The proposed method is what is called scientific method. Only when one follows that method can one honestly claim that an intense scientific procedure was conducted ***Miracles are special cases, rare, extraordinary, unexplained, sometimes even unrepeatable. Your scientific method cannot be used, as you only admit. Even now I cannot understand your method for such cases. About your scientific method, it is the method to be used for common clinical cases. We have studied it in Science, Epistemology and Sociology. Both Jose and Fr. Ivo are Catholics who believe in miracles. ***As a Catholic, I would accept the possibility of miracles, as the Church teaches, but would not accept as miracles those of Lourdes or those required for the Canonization of Saints, unless the scientific criteria are strictly being verified, as it is required by the Bishops and the Medical Committees. ... However, in stark contrast to Fr. Ivo, Jose has always said that he believes in them because of his faith... ***This is not true, as Dr.Jose has already replied to you. ...just like my scientific colleague and friend Jean-Baptiste here in Houston. These men of science never claim that there is scientific evidence for their beliefs, or that someone has conducted an intense scientific procedure to confirm their beliefs, or that their scientific reasoning somehow supports what they believe based on faith. That is why I respect their position, and have no argument against their beliefs. ***This is a poor compliment to them and to the Christians who do so. A common Christian will believe as the Church proposes (not everyone can try to deepen in the same way). But every Christian has the duty to deepen his study of Christian Faith. Scientific evidence or reasoning can be also historical evidence, substantiated wherever possible with modern scientific experiments. If your friend-scientist does not find rational, historical, theological grounds for his Faith, then he is still a child in his knowledge of Christian Religion. He needs to increase and update his knowledge, as he is doing in the scientific field... Fr. Ivo, on the other hand, despite the fact that he does not come from a scientific background, persists in making all kinds of bogus scientific claims in support of his beliefs, and in misrepresenting the nature of science and its purpose, in the service of his faith. That is why I am compelled to respond to his pronouncements about science in this public forum. ***Precisely you are trying to do something that surpasses your strength, because you yourself admit that Science does not have anything to do with the 'supernatural. You are trying to deny the existence of God and of miracles in the name of Science. I have the duty of replying to you and show the rationale of Christian Faith. Biblical exegesis studies the biblical narratives scientifically, with all the modern ressources in the literary, historical and theological field. Had he confined himself to preaching his religion, and expressing his pure faith in miracles and the supernatural, devoid of any reference to science, as Fr. Botelho and others have done in the past, I would have left him alone. ***You are absolutely wrong. Christian Faith is not pure faith in miracles. It is a historical event, it has its basis in history and therefore, it is observable in itself or in its effects. It transcends the natural phenomena but it has an impact on the nature. We are not preaching Resurrection of Jesus which is a 'figment of faith', but is a historical event. God intervenes in the history of humankind. If the Resurrection is a fact, then Christianity exists; if it is not, then Christianity does not. Saint Paul states it clearly: If Christ has not risen, all your faith is a delusion; you are back in your sins (1 Cor 15:17). Christianity is not God-delusion. Fr.Jude Botelho has been giving Sunday homilies, with reflections for life (some Goanetters called it junk). He is not dealing with theological and scientific issues. I am dealing with the debate on issues such as evolution, Big-Bang, miracles, Resurrection. Dr.Santosh has read a lot of literature on these issues. He should read books on God's existence, Resurrection, Virginal Conception of Jesus, miracles written by Hans Kueng, Raymond Brown, Juan Alfaro.They study the issues from all angles. We cannot preach a religion which is devoid of any reference to science, because Incarnation is a historical fact, it is God's intervention through Christ. We cannot tell 'lies' or 'fairy tales' to the people. Thanks to the efforts of Dr.Santosh to reduce God and Christianity to 'figments
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes miracles
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jose wrote: In my clinical experience (of some years now) there have been some unexpected cures/recoveries. They have been amazing and wonderful occurrences inexplicable by our current knowledge. Until I find scientific explanations for the cures, I will call them miracles. Josebab, please note that you say until I find scientific explanations. --- On Tue, 8/26/08, Mario Goveia [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I would like to know is, are there any events, either positive or negative, that are known to have occurred for which there is no plausible scientific explanation. There are many natural phenomena for which the complete scientific explanation is yet to be discovered, for example the phenomenon of consciousness or the phenomenon of sleep. I am thankful for the fact that they are unexplained, because otherwise I would be out of a job. When a scientist encounters an unexplained observation, he/she applies the method of science, and conducts painstaking research to find a natural explanation for it. ***You are speaking of phenomena in general, not of 'extraordinary' cases, which will defy scientific explanations. When one says miracles, one can mean also healings that are unexplained now, but could be or not explained later on. These are not miracles in the strict sense. There are strict criteria for such miracles. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Miracles
From: Agnelo Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I cannot make anyone believe in anything, it is one's own prerogative
whether they want to believe or not. But I do fully agree and believe in
miracles. Isn't the Birth of a new life a miracle?
*** We do accept the possibility and the fact of miracles. Nobody is bound
to admit them. But one has to evaluate the evidence instead of denying
point-blank the fact of extraordinary phenomena. We believe in the
providential love of God and therefore, even trivial facts can be considered
miracles in the broad sense. Science will not come to our rescue in this
case. Bible would ascribe birth to God instead of secondary causes, that is,
to the parents. But when there are 'extraordinary, unexplained facts, then
Science and historical evidence are witnesses to them, yet Science will not
be able to explain them, simply because miracles transcend the natural
order. William Ockham applied his criterion of parsimony ('Ockham's razor')
to unnecessary beings, but accepted God, Trinity, miracles in the light of
Christian Revelation. My contention is that we cannot deny miracles in the
name of Science. Science tells us that something is 'extraordinary', Faith
tells us that it is a miracle, ascribable to God alone.
Regards.
Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Miracles
From: J. Colaco jc [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2008/8/26 Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1: Both Jose and Fr. Ivo are Catholics who believe in miracles. 2: Jose has always said that he believes in them because of his faith May I agree with #1 above and disagree with #2 - as stated by you? In my clinical experience (of some years now) there have been some unexpected cures / recoveries. They have been amazing and wonderful occurrences inexplicable by our current knowledge. Until I find scientific explanations for the cures, I will call them miracles. It has nothing to do with my faith (i.e. religion). It has everything to do with my inability to find a scientific explanation for them. ***It is good that you have found in your clinical practice such healings, which according to your scientific knowledge could not be medically done. Enquiry can always be extended and much more verified. You can also call them miracles in a broader sense. You see the fact scientifically, and could attribute it to God or leave it in suspense. I am accepting miracles, not only because I am a Catholic and must accept the possibility of miracles, -- since Christianity is a historical religion rooted in the greatest miracle, the Resurrection of Jesus--, but also because I see the rationale for miracles. It is based on the observation and evaluation of facts in the light of Science and common sense. That is why I suggest that the Church needs to have an open investigation of unexplained cures. Was there an illness? Was it coincidentaly treated by a drug which was used for another purpose? Can there be another reason for the cure? Is it really a cure? ***As I am given to understand, the Medical Bureau does all this enquiry and much more... What else could they do in these cases? Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Scientific literacy
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- On Mon, 8/25/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When it is already closed mind to the supernatural, even scientific evidence will not convince. Intellectual probity is necessary. Scientific myopia will close the eyes and not allow to see the colours because the person is totally blind... The main reason why people like me respond in public forums to propagation of ignorance about science in the name of faith, such as that revealed in the above quote, is because we are interested in popularizing science and increasing the level of scientific literacy in our society. These are important social concerns for us. ***I am with you totally, Dr.Santosh, for popularizing science and increasing the level of scientific literacy in our society. You are needed in Goa for enlightening the people against superstitions and ignorance (though there is a high level of literacy among us). Though I am not a graduate in natural sciences, yet I read and write on science, not only with interest, but also and mainly in view of my theological formation. Science comes into Theological Anthropology. Evolution does not contradict Creation. I taught also social sciences with chapters on heredity, Mendel's laws, evolution, genetic engineering, population. It is wrong for you to say that I have been propagating ignorance about science in the name of faith. On the contrary, I am giving Science its due. I am keeping it in its place, namely that of discovering explanations for the natural phenomena. But what I cannot agree is that we deny the supra-natural in the name of Science, because the 'super-natural by definition transcends the natural phenomena and is object of Theology, whereas empirical sciences deal with natural phenomena. That is why I have been writing in this Forum, as well as in several others, like www.wordpress.com, in different languages. There is no contradiction between Science and Bible. The above quote from Fr. Ivo reveals a fundamental lack of understanding about science and its purpose, and what is meant by scientific evidence. ***Not at all. I understand it perfectly well. As I have said repeatedly, science is simply a quest to seek natural explanations. ***Agreed from the very outset. Scientific evidence can never be used to support the supernatural. ***In the case of miracles, there will not be scientific evidence, as in the case of other natural phenomena. But there is an evidence of human witness, of physical phenomena that occurred, for example in Eucharistic miracles. Unless these phenomena occur, we cannot speak of a miracle. All self-respecting scientists and science teachers recognize this indisputable fact and teach it to their students. ***Nothing wrong with it. Science has to progress among us and in the world. Your sincere dedication and total commitment to Science is to be highly praised. I never doubted it, even in my anger... I stated that your postings have raised the scientific level of the Forum. Here is a pertinent quote from the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, one of the world's most respected scientific organizations, in this regard: Science is a way of knowing about the natural world. It is limited to explaining the natural world through natural causes. Science can say nothing about the supernatural. ***Absolutely right. That is what I have been repeating from the very beginning: Science neither proves nor disproves the existence of God. But in the name of Science we cannot deny the existence of God and the miracles. Miracles are not violations of nature, as David Hume would say, they transcend the nature. When I say that the white host has been changed miraculously into flesh and blood, there is human witness. There are more than 126 Eucharistic miracles throughout the world. Are all of them bogus? Science can say that it is human flesh and blood, but will not say that it is the Body and Blood of Christ. It is the theologian who will say it with roots in the words of Jesus himself. The physician will say that this healing is extraordinary, it cannot be explained medically. Placebo effect and spontaneous remissions are to be excluded, if we wish to speak of miracles in the strict sense. It is difficult. But miracle will be unique event. The theologian will speak of God's intervention, of supernatural. Christianity is based solely on God's intervention in human history. To deny God's action in history is to deny Christianity. To deny the Resurrection of Jesus is to reject Christianity. Our faith in Resurrection is not merely human belief. It is historical, well documented, Spirit-led. People died to give witness to it. Nobody would die for a lie. There is human witnessing to all these facts. The enemies of Jesus never denied miracles of Jesus. Science cannot explain them, but also cannot outright deny the historical events connected with them. Science has not proved through all tests that the Shroud
Re: [Goanet] Miracles
From: George Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is the opposite true? If someone dies in an accident, there is no miracle, hence no God? Given there are many deaths in car accidents, should we conclude God does not exist just as some conclude God exists if they survive the accident? ***Good question! It is always difficult to speak about the events of our life. We experience the powerful hand of God both in life and in death. Redemptive suffering is also a gift from God. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Miracles
From: Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fr. Ivo writes of faith and miracles and there are pseudo-scientists and some men of learning on this forum who think that their education qualifies them to deny God and his existence. They deny that miracles happen, not knowing what really is a miracle. They probably have had many miracles in their own lives, but instead of acknowledging divine providence, they think some quality of their human existence has been responsible for it. ***Nobody is bound to accept miracles. Let them not impose their scientific views on others. We do believe in God and have to problem to accept God's providential power, which may be expressed by miracles or not. Our Faith is not based on miracles, but it is confirmed by them. each one of us can have these experiences. We have the right to tell them to others. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Roland Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] For a scientist Santosh, you have written a particularly unscientific reply. In what was a Faith thread, all I said was that faith was worn as a badge of learning in your case and as a social statement badge by Kevin. I then went on to explain what faith meant to those of us who have it. Why should we let you atheists go unchallenged in debate? We have the right to express our viewpoint also. ***You are right, Roland. While deepening the issues, I am also learning from the so-called atheists and agnostics. Let them know also why we believe without being gullible... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Vidyadhar Gadgil [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why all this heated debate about 'miracles'? What are they worth anyway? ***People are running for healings and miracles precisely because they touch their daily lives. They are in need, they are worth anyway... There's this famous story about the Buddha. He watched a saintly chappie walk across the river and then commented, I can cross that river by paying a penny for the ferry. ***Life is not so easy. We have to pay for it. Suffering has its redemptive value. That's about the value of most 'miracles', they don't help anybody in particular, ***People are going for healings and miracles, when they are in despair... are believed in only by those predisposed to belief ***Belief system is a part and parcel of our human existence, we cannot do without belief. Even the rationalists and scientists do need a belief system. We cannot survive without belief. We who believe in miracles are not gullible, credulous people... Faith in God gives us certainty... and distract attention from more important matters in both spiritual and temporal realms. ***Precisely, extraordinary events (inner healing and miracles) are sought for the problems in both spiritual and temporal realms... They do not come always to our rescue. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Cip Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rev. Fr. Ivo C. da Souza, How can you convince a colour blind person that colours exist? ***I do agree with you. I had a lot of discussions with people of other faiths ( or no-faith) and denominations. Sometimes it is quite enriching, when there is openness. When it is already closed mind to the supernatural, even scientific evidence will not convince. Intellectual probity is necessary. Scientific myopia will close the eyes and not allow to see the colours because the person is totally blind... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes miracles
From: J. Colaco jc [EMAIL PROTECTED] Using a selectively mutilated quote of what I (jc) had written i.e. ***Sorry, Dr.Jose Colaço, for keeping your quote shortened. This happened by mistake (not selectively mutilated)--the first words were deleted by mistake and I added check if:. Nothing was distorted. The logical meaning is the same. I understand it well. I gave you the answer not hastily, but according to the understanding that I have of the problem. For us who know so many languages, English is the easiest language... (Let me add here that Dr.JC cannot reply without insulting...) You want me to have all these requirements, namely to know medicine in all its branches, to review all the details of all the cases and to say that there is no other explanation for the cures? Dr.Santosh asked for a double-blind control (read below), admitting himself that this is difficult for such rare cases. The proposed method itself excludes all miracles. I think that these cases are rare and cannot have such a control, because they are too evident for the medical community. My answer is the same: The medical Bureau has verified all these criteria. I leaned on the expertise of the Medical Bureau and International Medical Panel, and our common sense and my own knowledge of medicine and data available. Even if an authority in medical field asserts it, Dr.Santosh will never accept that the incurable diseases were cured in those particular cases (which theologically means miracles). There will not be an authority in the world on all the branches of medicine, nor, as a consequence, such a person as to comprehend and judge all these cases. Dr.Santosh himself will not be able to do that. Nobody is bound to accept miracles--they are not magical feats, but signs of God's love--, nor am I bound to accept the scientific explanations given by Dr.Santosh. For me, these are miracles according to our prudential judgement. We can speak of them privately and in public domain. We call them miracles, precisely because they do not have a scientific explanation, and satisfy the required criteria. The Church accepts them officially as miracles. Dr.Santosh does not accept God, therefore he cannot accept miracles, nor can he explain reasonably these 'miraculous' phenomena... Regards. Fr.Ivo (*This is what Dr.JC had written:) ( In conclusion, I'd say this: The avenue open to anyone who wishes to counteract Santosh's position is the following: Advise us that he/she)(*this was deleted by mistake) (Chech if: (*This was added by me) a: has the requisite knowledge of the field of medicine in which the miracle is said to have occured b: has personally reviwed all the original details of the case. c: is able to say with confidence that there is NO other explanation for the 'cure'. About the method Dr.Santosh wrote on August 10: Simply put, any scientific procedure requires that properly blinded and objective researchers obtain quantitative data about the probability of occurrence of the phenomenon under observation in the special condition under study, and then compare this probability with that of its occurrence in a control (properly matched) group of people under appropriately controlled conditions.*(These are his words):Since the so-called miracles are by definition rare events, this is a monumental task. ...It should be obvious to those of you who have followed the logic here that if it turns out that two or more individuals from this latter group had also recovered spontaneously from the disease, then no particular benefit from the pilgrimage would be deemed to have occurred. Well, the actual situation is even more complicated than what I have just described, as those with some statistics background would realize. However, the impossibility of performing the above simplified, yet massive, project to scientifically demonstrate that anything extraordinary has occurred, should be fairly plain to most people.
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Lourdes Miracles
From: Marlon Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dear Fr. Ivo, What the hell (no pun intended :) is transubstantiation? Transubstantiation is a very scientific sounding word - perhaps a play on the scientific concept of the transmutation of elements. Why are you attempting to package your belief in magic/miracles/hexes/spells with scientific terminology, so as to give it an aura of credibility? ***Dear Marlon, transubstantiation is not my invention. It is a theological term used by the Church in her Councils, particularly in the Council of Trent (DS 1652) to express the change of the bread and wine into Christ's Body and Blood, the Risen Lord. After the Consecration there is a change in meaning and therefore of the being of the gifts. Jesus said: This is my Body...This is my Blood (Lk 22:19). They are signs of Christ's self-giving and require our self-gift. It is the Church's faith from time immemorial (cf.Acts 2:42). I do not believe in magic, hexes, spells, curses, but in miracles. I am not trying to give it an aura of credibility. It has solid grounds of credibility. It has nothing to do with transmutation of elements through alchemy, philosopher's stone or elixir of life. Regards. Fr.Ivo --- Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jesus of his real presence in the Eucharist through transubstantiation. I hope that the readers will see that there are Eucharistic miracles in our times. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: raju gonsalves [EMAIL PROTECTED] There seems to be quite a hue and cry about the miracles. ***Precisely because they happen, but are being denied by some scientists. SEEK N YOU SHALL FIND... I am seeing that the revelations by our lady of fatima, are happening, may be I sought - so why dont you all seek. ***Therefore, you accept miracles. You seek miracles. Visions and apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima have been tested and approved by the Church authorities. They belong to the phenomenon of Incarnation which is the kernel of Christianity. You do not need any hue and cry about the miracles. You only need discernment. What I am writing is not for you. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I think that Fr.Ivo and others would do well to heed the following excerpts from the authoritative 1998 decree of the concerned Archbishop regarding the fraudulent miracles of this mystic called Julia Kim: ***I have quoted Roman Danylak, titular bishop of Nyssa, Apostolic Administrator, Eparchy of Toronto, Canada, who witnessed the Eucharistic miracle. Should we not give credit to him? The Archbishop of Kwangju has given his version: 1.2. The phenomenon alleged as a miracle of the Eucharist fallen from heaven is contradictory to the doctrine of the Catholic Church that only through the priest's consecration does the sacrament of the Eucharist begin to exist (cf. Catechism de l'Eglise Catholique 1411: DS. 902) even though the priest is in grave sin, because when all the sacraments are justly celebrated in accordance with the intention of the Church(ex opere operato), Christ and His holy Spirit operate in them (cf. Catechism de l'Eglise Catholique 1128: DS. 793-794). ***I did not refer to hosts or Eucharist fallen from heaven. The phenomenon itself is doubtful. It is to be further investigated. That is the task of the Archbishop of Kwangju, his scientists and theologians. Furthermore, the alleged phenomenon that as soon as Mrs. Julia Youn received the Eucharist, it was changed into a lump of bloody flesh in her mouth is also contrary to the doctrine of the Catholic Church that even after the bread and wine are transubstantiated into the body and blood of Christ with the formula of priests' consecration, the species of bread and wine remain (cf. Pope Paul Ⅵ's Mysterium Fidei: DS. 782, 802, 1321, 1640-1642, 1652)... ***The Archbishop of Kwangju has authority in his Archdiocese and is to be respected there. But I would disagree with him when he says that the consecrated bread and wine cannot miraculously be transformed into the body and blood of Christ as a lump of bloody flesh. The species of bread and wine remain on the altar. Faith discovers for us the body and blood of Christ through transubstantiation. Cannot there be Eucharistic miracle? There have been several Eucharistic miracles. They confirm our faith in the Eucharist as attested by the New Testament. Is this contrary to the doctrine of the Catholic Church? Certainly not! At Lanciano, Southern Italy, in the 8th century CE. in the little church of St.Legontian, there was a Eucharistic miracle in response to a Basilian monk's doubt about the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. At the altar the host was changed into live Flesh and the wine into live Blood. It was investigated by various commissions. In November 1970 the illustrious scientist Dr.Odoardo Linoli, eminent Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and Clinical Microscopy at the Hospital of Arezzo, assisted by Prof.Ruggero Bertelli, Professor of Human Anatomy at the University of Siena, analysed this phenomenon with scientific precision and documented with a series of microscopic photographs. They concluded: 1.The Flesh is real Flesh. The Blood is real Blood. 2.The Flesh and Blood belong to the human species. 3.The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the heart. 4.In the Flesh we see present in sections the myocardium, the endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for the large thickness of the myocardium. 5.The Flesh is a HEART complete in its essential structure. 6.The Flesh and the Blood have the same bloodtype AB. 7.In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions (percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of fresh normal blood. 8.In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium. 9.The preservation of the Flesh and the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon. 10.In conclusion, it may be said that Science, when called upon to testify, has given a certain and thorough response as regards the authenticity of the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano. There are books on Eucharistic miracles. If Dr.Santosh is interested in explaining them away, he could read them. I do not want piecemeal and biased amateur answers... ***I am not an agent of Julia Youn Kim. I only defend the Eucharistic miracles as signs of God's power against those who treat them as bogus or as superstitions in this Forum... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: J. Colaco jc [EMAIL PROTECTED] I do understand that there is a scientific committee and a process for these miracles - BUT if any process is going to be accepted, the process has to be open and transparent. I suggest that IF we really want to investigate ANY matter - we should invite inspection from the 'skeptical' side. ***The Medical Bureau examines the evidence scientifically and consults also the International Medical Panel, which consists of scientists of all beliefs and 'no-beliefs' and 'skeptics'. I must say that I am amazed by the writings of Fr. Ivo. Is that sort of stuff helping or not-helping the faith I have that the Catholic Church is based on the teachings of Christ - the serious failings of the human faces of the Church notwithstanding? ***Are not miracles a part and parcel of the teaching of the Church and of the Gospels? Jesus worked miracles, as the Gospels attest. The Church has defined the possibility of miracles. Our Faith is not based on miracles, but it is confirmed by them. It is historical and rooted in the Incarnation of the Word. My contention is that miracles do not contradict Science. They go beyond the natural phenomena, they cannot be explained scientifically. They are explained as intervention of God's power. We Christians have no problem to accept them. Should we not explain it to the agnostics when opportunity is given to us? If so, why bombard me and the rest of us with junk? ***We are used to be bombarded with junk by most Goanetters in this Forum, including Dr.J.Colaço (with mutual insults). We bear up with them, let him and others bear up with me... These matters are of concern for us all. Check a: If s/he has the requisite knowledge of the field of medicine in which the miracle is said to have occurred. b: S/he has personally reviewed all the original details of the case. c: S/he is able to say with confidence that there is NO other explanation for the 'cure'. ***Dr.JC has not paid attention to all these three points presented in the postings. All these three conditions have been fulfilled by the Medical Bureau of Lourdes. Some of the Points made by Santosh Helekar 1. The claims that any of these miracles were investigated by following proper scientific procedures are false. ***These procedures have been used. 2. I want to demonstrate that those who claim scientific legitimacy for their belief in the authenticity of these miracles are being misled by bogus pronouncements in propaganda publications and on the internet because they refuse to or are not able to critically evaluate these pronouncements. ***If definite criteria to judge them are fulfilled, then they are authentic. We do not accept bogus anecdotal tales. Historical criterion is important--what has happened and how. 3. In the case of the Korean miracle, the Church authorities themselves have rejected it as fraudulent, and warned against its propagation among their followers. ***There is a cocktail of phenomena there in Naju, South Korea. Discipline had to be maintained. The Archbishop has given his verdict. His verdict does not rule out Eucharistic miracles, as attested by the witnesses, including Bishops and priests who saw it. My point is that there are Eucharistic miracles. About his assertion that it is against the teaching of the Church, I agree to disagree: the Church approves of Eucharistic miracles. I have given two examples: one at Naju and one at Lanciano. At Lanciano scientific investigation by Dr.Odoardo Linoli has confirmed it: the white Host was turned into Flesh and Blood. Consulted by ZENIT, Dr.Linoli explained that as regards the flesh, I had in my hand the endocardium. Therefore, there is no doubt at all that it is cardiac tissue. In regard to the blood, the scientist emphasized that the blood group is the same as that of the man of the holy Shroud of Turin, and it is particular because it has the characteristics of a man who was born and lived in the Middle East regions. It is not fraudulent, it is preserved at Lanciano till today. My contention that it is a miracle stands. This should not be junk for you. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: ralph rau [EMAIL PROTECTED] Last time I heard Goanet was a forum for discussing social issues of concern to Goans and not debating matters of faith. ***Which are social issues of concern to Goans? We are hearing a lot about them. We can hear them being debated in the Legislative Assembly in these days by our political benefactors. Some of them are already out of our reach. They have already been decided by Delhi authorities, whether they are beneficial to us or not. Matters of faith: are they not social issues? It's rightly said - to those who believe no proof is necessary. To those who cannot, will not, or do not (the doubting Thomases) no proof is sufficient. ***Are doubting Thomases examining the evidence? What is proof for them, when science itself cannot explain the miraculous phenomena? Should doubting Thomases manipulate and deny the facts? The doubting Thomas accepted the apparition of the Risen Lord and exclaimed: My Lord and my God (John 20:28). Should scientific jargon be imposed on those who accept miracles and state that there is no contradiction between Science and Religion? Should we follow dogmatism of science? Fr. Ivo should stop trying to defend his faith. It merely attracts the ire of the detractors. ***Is this the freedom of expression in our democratic country and Forum, when 'those without faith' (or rather agnostics) can detract those who have Faith with reasons for it? Are not the agnostics attracting the ire of the believers? Is it not their right to defend their Faith? People with Faith (some of them 'in cloth') are working for the solution of problems of India with their social commitment and heroic dedication. These are miracles of Faith and Love... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Albert Desouza [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***I am reproducing the witness of those who have seen the white host being transformed into flesh and blood, thus confirming the words of Jesus of his real presence in the Eucharist through transubstantiation. I hope that the readers will see that there are Eucharistic miracles in our times. Albert writes: ...Many times Miracles are man made. If God wanted to show these miracles He would show it to everyone and not only to few. ***Miracles are a part and parcel of the Christian Revelation. Miracles can be worked only by God. Man-made miracles are not miracles. The Church defined the possibility of miracles. Miracles are signs of God's power. God works according to his Will and Plan. Signs from heaven should not be demanded, as Jesus himself warned us. They should be humbly recognized. There has been instances of bogus miracles too which I do not like to discus on this net not out of fear but out of disgust. ***I am speaking of Lourdes miracles and Eucharistic miracles, recognized by the Church. I am not referring to bogus miracles which are not miracles at all... The person who has seen God is Jesus Christ. He has clearly mentioned every inch of his knowledge into the Bible and there lies the authenticity of God. Many times the clergy take undue respect of calling human beings as scholars of the church or scholars of the scriptures. There are no scholars of the scriptures unless God reveals the matter to them. ***God spoke through the prophets and through Jesus his Son to humanity. Scriptures mediate this God-talk to us. Theologians and scriptural scholars have their important role in the Church. God speaks to us today also through the theologians and the Church. Instead of writing against the teaching of the Church, I hope you will learn from the theologians and the priests. Hope I am clear. ***Yes, I hope that I am also clear. Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] Fw: Lourdes Miracles
- Original Message - From: Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2008 7:25 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sun, 8/10/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How can it be pious fraud? Has Julia Kim done it in the presence of so many people? Has she put hen's meat in her mouth? Is this the scientific explanation? I think as of January 21, 2008 Julia Kim and her followers have been excommunicated by the Archbishop because of the possibility of fraud, and the embarrassment these unruly miraculous events that she is staging, might be causing the Church. He has also forbidden his subordinates and co-religionists from propagating these fake miracles on the internet and through the print media. I guess that would apply to Fr. Ivo as well. ***I am reproducing the witness of those who have seen the white host being transformed into flesh and blood, thus confirming the words of Jesus of his real presence in the Eucharist through transubstantiation. I hope that the readers will see that there are Eucharistic miracles in our times. Regards. Fr.Ivo EPARCHY OF TORONTO (Ukrainian Catholic) Apostolic Administrator Chancery Office Naju, Korea, September 22, 1995 Sworn Testimony of Witnesses of Miraculous transformation of Consecrated Host and Wine, changing into living and moving flesh and blood, when Julia Kim received Holy Communion during the Celebration of the Eucharist at the open air Mass, celebrated in the field of the valley amidst the mountains outside Naju, at 5 p.m. on September 22, 1995. I, Bishop Roman Danylak, Apostolic Administrator of the Eparchy of Toronto for Ukrainian Catholics in Toronto, Canada, and titular bishop of Nyssa, herewith solemnly testify that I concelebrated the Divine Liturgy, or Holy Mass, with the Reverend Fathers Aloysius Chang, parish priest of the Kwangju Archdiocese in Korea, invited by me to assist during my visit to Korea; and Joseph Peter Finn, retired priest of the Diocese of London, Canada, on Friday, September 22, at 5 p.m. in an open air celebration on the grounds of the valley where a future church is to be erected, God-willing, to the honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary and Mother of God. Following the Liturgy of the Word, I delivered a brief homily for the occasion. After the communion of the priests, Fr. Chang and I administered Holy Communion under both species to Julia Kim and the eleven others.. As we continued the distribution of Holy Communion to the others present, we heard a sudden sobbing of one of the women assisting at Mass. The Sacred Host received by Julia was changed to living flesh and blood. Father Joseph Finn , who had remained at the altar during the communion of the faithful, was observing Julia; he noted that at the moment he turned to observe Julia, he saw the white edge of the host disappearing and changing into the substance of living flesh. Fr. Chang and I returned to Julia. The host had changed to dark red, living flesh and blood flowing from it. After Mass, Julia shared with us that she experienced the Divine Flesh as a thick consistency and a copious flowing of blood, more so than on the occasion of previous miracles of the changing of the host into bleeding flesh. We remained in-silence and prayer; all present had the opportunity of viewing and venerating the miraculous host. After some moments I asked Julia to swallow and consume the host. And after the Mass Julia explained that the Host had become large and fleshy; and that she consumed it with some difficulty. The taste of blood remained in her mouth for some time. I then asked that she be given a glass of water., from the miraculous source of water nearby. As she drank the waters her finger touched her lips, and a trace of blood was visible on her finger. She rinsed her finger in the water and drank it. In testimony of this, I append my signature, together with the signatures of all the witnesses present. Dated at Naju, this 22nd day of September, 1995 (signed) Roman Danylak, titular bishop of Nyssa, Apostolic Administrator, Eparchy of Toronto, Canada. Joseph P. Finn, Saint Peter's Cathedral Basilica, London, Ontario, Canada Rev. Aloysius Chang, priest of Kwangju Archdiocese. (Korean signatures of others present) Raphael Song, Vivianna Cho, Ru Bi No Pork, Bi To Hna
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- On Fri, 8/15/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: **In the case of Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, how can you perform this scientific procedure? So after all this talk about using a scientific procedure to certify miracles, we have a concession that such a procedure cannot be performed in this case. ***This procedure is not the only one. Physicians have used another scientific method, as I have mentioned by quoting their news. This method is valid in this case. --- On Fri, 8/15/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ***I would be for a natural effect of placebo. But is it a placebo effect in those cases which have been documented after long and intense research by the International Medical Panel? As far as science is concerned, the panel has clearly never done anything to rule out simple explanations such as the placebo effect and spontaneous remissions. ***Do those scientists agree with you? An embarrassing example from the 60's makes this amply clear. On the recommendation of the people voting for the majority in the international medical panel meeting, a woman with a condition called Budd-Chiari syndrome was certified to have been miraculously cured from that disease in 1963. A few years later, as expected, the miracle ended like all other such hoaxes. The miraculously cured woman died from the same disease. ***This case is not found in the dossier of 68 miracles. Where did you find it? Are all miracles such hoaxes? Or do you accept exceptions? As one Vatican official now concedes: What seems like a miracle now may not be one in a hundred years. Such are the advances of science. Declarations of miracles are not infallible teachings. ***Who has said this? Advances of science have a limit. Miracles are signs of God's love. They confirm our faith.They are based on prudence and human faith. Can all the miracles from hundred years ago be declared as feasible today through modern medicine? Do you accept that there are infallible teachings of the Church? What is the foundation of these teachings? The Church teaches the possibility of miracles. Christianity is a historical religion, and therefore accepts God's action in history. If there is any doubt about the futility of this miracle-mongering nonsense, the above candid admission should dispel it. ***Does it do away with the faith of the Church in miracles? Most of us do not experience such miracles. Yet we believe because of the evidence that is offered to us. Are all those who believe in miracles credulous and ignorant? Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] Reply to Fr.Ivo
From: Albert Desouza [EMAIL PROTECTED] Miracles are taking place in everyone's life. The very fact we are alive is a great miracle. ***I do agree with you: the Universe is itself a miracle, our existence is a miracle, every event of our life is a miracle. St.Augustine would speak of the Universe as a real miracle, to be admired. But I am discussing the miracles in the strict sense, for example, the Eucharistic miracles. These miracles are rare. We may not have witnessed them ourselves. We lay too much emphasis on saints and Mary, leaving the Heavenly Father without any importance and praises. ***The Church has not forgotten God, nor Mary, the Mother of God-Man, Jesus of Nazareth, nor the Saints. Everything has its own rightful place. Not much importance is given to the Bible. ***Bible is in the centre of the Liturgy. The Word of God is the Word Jesus. Our prayers are rote from memory. ***There are innumerous ways of praying. Memorization of prayers may help us, particularly in the difficult dry moments. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...more importantly, modern science teaches us that it is foolish to draw premature conclusions from lack of knowledge about something at any given time. ***Right. Science has its limitations. These conclusions do not belong to its competence. Science certainly does not think it is very wise to resort to supernatural or miraculous explanations for the natural universe. ***Right. This task is beyond the scope of Science. Instead, it demands that we continue our honest and dispassionate quest for natural explanations. ***Right. Scientists should continue their work, without denying what is beyond their realm. Regards. Fr.Ivo --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is a saying :A wise man knows what he says, a fool says what he knows. We as medical doctors mostly say what we know from books, literature, journals, and broadcasted news. But do we know what we say? We say if you smoke, it causes cancer, but do we know why Curchill, FidelCastro, and many others never got cancer? We say coconut oil is bad for the heart; did all from the Konkan and Malabar coast die of heart disease for all these centuries? Do scientists know why there is no Chaos in the movement of the Universe?
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think as of January 21, 2008 Julia Kim and her followers have been excommunicated by the Archbishop because of the possibility of fraud, and the embarrassment these unruly miraculous events that she is staging, might be causing the Church. ***Yes, you are right. The Archbishop of Kwangju Andreas Choi Chang-mou issued the decree of excommunication latae sententiae on Jan. 21, 2008, on Julia Youn Kim and her followers for the sake of healthy faith life, unity and communion of the church. The Archbishop has been directing them since 1998. The Archbishop has not denied the Eucharistic phenomena, he has ruled the chaotic situation created by the propanda in the diocese and other places: building a shrine in Naju, South Korea, going from diocese to diocese for healing ministry, clashing with the bishops through newspapers and Internet. It requires Archbishop's permission. The problem is with the discipline, not with the charisms, provided that there is right discernment in handling visions and miracles. **When Dr.Santosh is demanding a scientific proof of the Eucharistic miracles, we should demand from him a scientific handling of the data offered to us by the case. He cannot handle them in an un-scientific way. Half knowledge is dangerous. Dr.Santosh can produce more miracles by attributing atheistic and agnostic affirmations to the Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor of Westminster. Nobody is forbidden to speak of miracles. Jesus of Nazareth has worked them as it is well attested in the Gospels. The Church has witnessed to them from the beginning of her history. The Church teaches us about miracles in the Council Vatican I and The Catechism of the Catholic Church. Our faith is not based on miracles alone. They confirm our faith. He has also forbidden his subordinates and co-religionists from propagating these fake miracles on the internet and through the print media. I guess that would apply to Fr. Ivo as well. ***I am not propagating false miracles, which would not be miracles at all. I am not an agent of Julia Youn Kim. I am defending the teaching of the Church herself in the light of biblical Revelation and investigating it in the light of modern science, which is open to miracles through its concepts of relativity and uncertainty of quantum physics. There are criteria given by the Church to discern miracles. There are Eucharistic miracles in different parts of the world. Physicians have investigated them. They are real miracles. There are books on Eucharistic miracles. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...any scientific procedure requires that properly blinded and objective researchers obtain quantitative data about the probability of occurrence of the phenomenon under observation in the special condition under study, and then compare this probability with that of its occurrence in a control (properly matched) group of people under appropriately controlled conditions. Since the so-called miracles are by definition rare events, this is a monumental task. ***Precisely, they are rare and extraordinary events. They cannot be compared with others, because all the hypotheses of placebo effect and spontaneous remissions are excluded. There is a long follow-up. In a real scientific procedure one would have to track down at least a large random sample of people suffering from the specific type of disease in question, who have ever made a pilgrimage to Lourdes, and investigate what happened to them. This is obviously extremely difficult to do. But if one could do this, and it turned out that all these other 167,323 individuals were dead or dying from the disease, in spite of undergoing an intensive regimen of prayer or immersion in holy water, then one would have to find out if the tiny probability (let us say 2 out of 167,323) of miraculous recovery from the dreaded disease was significantly higher than the probability of this recovery occurring in a comparable sample of control (properly age-matched, gender-matched, etc) people who had the same disease but did not go to Lourdes for treatment. ***Physicians there can control only those cases coming to Lourdes, not of the whole world, as you only admit. We cannot exclude that there can be miracles in other parts of the world. Some of them may not be documented. There will not be cures for all the cases. We do not expect divine feats in every disease and every case. But we only verify some extraordinary cases, which are well documented, and conclude that they are extraordinary, miraculous cases. It should be obvious to those of you who have followed the logic here that if it turns out that two or more individuals from this latter group had also recovered spontaneously from the disease, then no particular benefit from the pilgrimage would be deemed to have occurred. ***Physicians will exclude that this is a case of spontaneous remission. Care is taken, for example, with cancer, which is usually not admitted for the canonization of Saints. The descriptions provided by Fr. Ivo in his last two posts, and all other published information on this miracle business, show that nothing of this nature has ever been done. **In the case of Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, how can you perform this scientific procedure? This miracle business is more complex and requires a different methodolgy, which has been used by scientists and theologians. But suppose you undertake such a genuine scientific project, and it turns out that there are 50 other cases of spontaneous cures in the Lourdes group and only 10 in the control, and the difference is statistically significant. Would we then conclude that we have witnessed extraordinary events or miracles? Would it entail any kind of supernatural explanation at all? ***Are there so many and such spontaneous cures in the hospitals? How to explain these phenomena in situations of intense faith and prayer? Can just a warm concern (or psychological and social factors) for the dying person bring him/her back to a normal situation? This does not happen always, but if it happens even rarely can we speak of spontaneous remissions or of placebo effect? Absolutely not! There is a much more parsimonious explanation for this observation. This explanation has been codified in several decades of clinical trial literature as the Placebo effect. ***I would be for a natural effect of placebo. But is it a placebo effect in those cases which have been documented after long and intense research by the International Medical Panel? These rhetorical questions have a self-evident answer: This cannot be placebo effect. It requires a different explanation. Can Science explain it? A biased answer against the existence of God and against miracles does not solve the problem. ...and this indeed turns out to be their last impenetrable bastion of complacency - of being content with living in a state of blissful ignorance. ***Science will never be able to answer all these problems, or rather mysteries, and do away with our blissful ignorance... I thank Dr.Santosh for trying to give his answers for our eternal questions, though they may not be convincing... Let us continue our research and formulate our statements with more precision... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Mervyn Lobo [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have not being opening any of the posts on this subject simply because it is beyond common sense that it is in Lourdes that God concentrates on answering requests and providing miracles. If God cannot find you in your living room, s/he is not going to find you in Lourdes. In fact, it would be a terrible God that would give you a disease in your home and then demand you go to Lourdes to be cured. ***Nobody is bound to read all the postings appearing in Goanet. But the reason given not to read any of the posts on this subject seems to be silly. I have never said that there are miracles only in Lourdes. God can work miracles anywhere. My contention was that there are extraordinary phenomena in Lourdes, which have been scientifically documented. They challenge medical science. Science finds them beyond its reach. They are miracles out of several healings that take place there. They go beyond the placebo effect or spontaneous remissions. Even when there are not healings, there can be inner healing and acceptance of redemptive suffering. The conclusion is that there is no conflict between Science and Bible. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- On Sun, 8/10/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
His study confirmed that the flesh and blood were of human
origin. The flesh was unequivocally cardiac tissue, and the blood was of
type AB.
The type AB blood means that the owner of the blood was born out of the
normal biological union of a man and a woman. The possibilities of pairing
of blood types of the father and mother, respectively, were as follows: A
and B, A and AB, B and A, B and AB or AB and AB.
There are type AB blood groups among different people, especially in the
Near East. From investigations upon the miracle since 1574, there is
evidence of the
Eucharistic miracle at Lanciano to this day. In 1970-1971, Professor Odoardo
Linoli, eminent
Professor in Anatomy and Pathological Histology and in Chemistry and
Clinical Microscopy, and
Professor Ruggero Bertelli of the University of Siena, conducted a
scientific investigation into the miracle. The report was published in
Quaderni Sclavo di Diagnostica Clinica e di Laboratori in 1971, and
reaffirmed by a scientific commission appointed by the Higher Council of the
World Health Organization in 1973. The following conclusions were
drawn: a. The Flesh of the miracle is real Flesh and the Blood is real
Blood.
b. The Flesh and the Blood belong to the human species.
c. In the Flesh we see present in section: the myocardium, the
endocardium, the vagus nerve and also the left ventricle of the heart for
the large thickness of the myocardium. The Flesh is a heart complete in its
essential structure.
d. The Flesh and the Blood have the same blood type, AB, which is also
the same blood type found on the Shroud of Turin and all other Eucharistic
Miracles.
e. In the Blood there were found proteins in the same normal proportions
(percentage-wise) as are found in the sero-proteic make-up of the fresh
normal blood.
f. In the Blood there were also found these minerals: chlorides,
phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and calcium.
g. There is no trace whatsoever of any materials or agents used to
preserve the Flesh or Blood.
The Flesh and Blood of the miracle can still be seen today. The Host-Flesh,
which is the same size as the large Host used today in the Latin Church, is
fibrous and light brown in colour, and becomes rose-coloured when lighted
from the back. The Blood consists of five coagulated globules and has an
earthly colour resembling the yellow of ochre.
***Studies on the blood of Christ have revealed that Jesus had only 23
chromosomes plus one for a male
or the additional Y determinant making a total of 24. There is no human
being today in the
world who has 24 chromosomes in their blood, only Christ has this to
indicate that He is the Son of God ('the true God') and the Son of
Mary, the human mother, who donated His Body. I still need more research on
this point.
Virginal conception of Jesus in based on documentary, historical,
theological evidence. It is better if it can be confirmed scientifically.
Gospels speak of the
historical tradition, namely that Mary conceived before she went to live
together with her legal husband,
Joseph (Mt 1:18; Lk 1:34-35).
Regards.
Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: edward desilva [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...similar miracles were performed by a portuguese lady. ***Thank you, Edward, for the news and precaution. If this is the case, the alleged miracle will be revealed. My contention is that there are Eucharistic miracles. I happened to give this example, since my memory took me to what I read in 1995 about Julia Youn Kim, in Naju, Korea, and now I found it again. The Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano has been investigated. You can read about other Eucharistic miracles. Yet, I repeat: our faith in the Eucharist is not based on the miracles. They only confirm our faith in the words of Jesus. There is no conflict with Science, it goes beyond the natural, phenomenal realm. It is, therefore, called supernatural. Christian religion is historical revelation of God. Regards. Fr.Ivo --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How can it be pious fraud? Has Julia Kim done it in the presence of so many people? Has she put hen's meat in her mouth? Is this the scientific explanation?
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] The level of gullibility displayed in the quoted post indicates that the people involved in propagating such miracles do not want their claims to be subjected to real scientific tests, and face the prospect of disillusionment. ***This is wrong. The Church does not accept easily the phenomena as miracles without proper investigation. The Eucharistic miracle at Lanciano has been investigated and physicians have accepted it. Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] Fw: Lourdes Miracles
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] As you can see, the procedure described below is clearly not a scientific procedure of any kind. ***I am giving here the report of the Eucharistic miracle. We believe in the real presence of the Risen Lord in the Eucharist under the species of bread and wine. Christian faith is not based on miracles. The miracle confirms it. What would be Dr.Santosh's scientific procedure? For my neuroscience this can never happen!... This is laughable! Let us humbly accept the reality. We know how much we do not know! Regards. Fr.Ivo The Eucharistic Miracles The first Eucharistic miracle took place in the Naju Parish Church on 5th June 1988 during Mass when Julia Kim received Holy Communion and the Sacred Host turned into flesh and blood in her mouth. Since then, she has experienced this miracle on many occasions, both in Naju and abroad. It has been witnessed by many people, including priests, the Pope's representatives and even the Holy Father himself when Julia visited the Vatican in October 1995. During a private Mass celebrated by the Holy Father, Julia received Holy Communion and the Eucharistic miracle occurred again, for the twelfth time. The Sacred Host turned to flesh and blood on Julia's tongue. The newsletter, Mary's Touch, reported, Immediately after the Mass, the Holy Father, came to Julia and witnessed this miracle. His Holiness blessed Julia and her companions. On 17th September 1996, a Eucharistic miracle took place in the Sacred Heart Cathedral in Sibu, Sarawak (Malaysia), when Julia Kim, together with about 3,000 people, were present for Mass concelebrated by Bishop Dominic Su, Mgr William Bos, Fr Tom Connors, Fr Francis Su, Fr Jacob Ong and Fr Paul Chee. During the homily, Bishop Su emphasised the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist and the healing power of the Eucharistic Lord. When Julia Kim received Holy Communion a short while later, the Sacred Host on her tongue turned into flesh and blood in the shape of a heart. Many people witnessed this miracle and, as on previous occasions, photographs were taken. A few minutes later, Julia consumed the flesh. In his testimony, Bishop Su said,Our Lord performed this miracle in order to confirm our faith in his Real Presence in the Eucharist. To him be the glory and praise for ever and ever! Other miraculous signs that have occurred in Naju include a vision in July 1995 during a service to celebrate the anniversary of the first time Our Lady's statue shed tears. Julia saw the wooden figure of Jesus on the cross turn to flesh and bleed at seven places on his body. The seven wounds then turned into white round hosts which floated down to rest on the altar before Our Lady's statue. When Julia consumed one of the sacred Hosts later, it turned into flesh and blood. The two priests celebrating Mass, dipped their fingers in the blood, showed this to the people and wiped their fingers on a piece of white cloth, which is preserved in the chapel at Naju. All these signs and wonders have touched many people and a committee has been formed to investigate and examine the evidence. The Church in Naju hopes that the revelations there will be officially approved by the Pope, and the Church and the whole world will be renewed by the mercy of God through our Blessed Mother. From the Nunciature The Apostolic Pro-Nuncio in Korea, Most Rev Giovanni Bulaitis, wrote to Bishop Dominic Su, It has come to my knowledge, the wonderful manifestation of the Holy Eucharist which took place in your presence last September. This Nunciature is gathering material relating to events involving Julia and I should be most grateful if you could share with me the experience with a documentation, witness-reports and photographs. As you may know, I myself assisted at a marvelous presence of the Eucharist in November 1994(Page 50, The Holy Eucharist and the Blessed Mother. Publisher:Sacred Heart's Audio visual Centre, PB-495, 96007, Sibu, Malaysia) Bishop's report In response to this letter, Bishop Dominic Su wrote, Thank you for your letter, dated 1st November, 1996. I was caught totally unprepared when this extraordinary Eucharistic phenomenon occurred in our Sacred Heart Cathedral, Sibu on 17th September, 1996 during our Eucharistic celebration from 7.30 p.m. to 9.30 p.m. When I think over it now, I can see that it was good for me to be caught unprepared. Had I expected before hand that this mysterious incident would happen, I would have got a pyx ready to get this flesh and blood from the mouth of Mrs. Julia Kim for laboratory analysis. This would show that my faith in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist would have to depend on scientific proof. What Jesus wants from us is our child-like faith in Him and not an intellectual type of faith based on science and reasonings. That is why some Catholics, including a few priests, no longer believe in the real presence of
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Lourdes Miracles
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] As you can see from the post quoted below, contrary to earlier claims not even a bureaucratic committee meeting was called to certify these incredible miracles, let alone follow any kind of genuine scientific procedure. ***It was subsequently studied by a Committee. Dr.Santosh is conveniently forgetting that it has happened instantly: the white host made out of bread has turned into flesh and blood. It has been witnessed several times by the people who were present. If this happens while we are distributing Communion, what proof do we require? What scientific phenomenon is this? He can always coin new terms for these phenomena, but is not able to explain them away. Not being a scientist, I would explain it in terms of Jesus, who spoke of his own body and blood, his glorified body. This would be for me more than a proof... But we do not need to see all these phenomena, since our faith is rooted in the words of Our Lord. These cases abound. The supernatural claims made by an individual and her priests were accepted without any independent verification by unbiased expert observers or by any kind of actual tests to ascertain whether real flesh and blood had materialized. ***These are facts witnessed by sound people. Senses do not fail. These phenomena have been witnessed by the late Holy Father John Paul. Was it nuclear cloning? Was it hallucination? It was flesh and blood. How can flesh and blood be produced in believer's mouth after she received the sacred host? Can an unbiased expert observer deny the fact? Where is bias in this case? Where is deception in this case? I am ready to hear from Dr.Santosh any scientific explanation for the phenomenon and then verify it with the help of another scientist. Nobody bothered to investigate whether they were human flesh and blood. ***What else could be? Bird's flesh and bird, produced by a magician in that sacred moment? No samples of the flesh and blood were preserved for a subsequent thorough scientific examination to rule out the very likely possibility of pious fraud, and to establish the validity of not just the immediate extraordinary claims, but indeed the tenability of the entire belief system surrounding them. ***This is wrong. The report speaks of later investigation. How can it be pious fraud? Has Julia Kim done it in the presence of so many people? Has she put hen's meat in her mouth? Is this the scientific explanation? How is at stake the tenability of the entire belief system? On the contrary, these are signs of faith rooted in historical facts, the Last Supper, the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth. Dr.Santosh is trying to condemn religious rites with his scientific myopia. Let him be more serious in his statements, or at least recognize that it is not possible for him to give a verdict on these Christian dogmas. Dogma has arisen from the faith in the words of Jesus. The words of Jesus can be verified in several ways. Dr.Santosh is welcome to shed light on superstitions and snatch them away from our society... A real scientific procedure would demand one to find out if the tissue and blood in question matches that of anybody connected with this event, primarily Julia Kim. ***The host is turned into flesh and blood as soon as she receives the sacred bread into her mouth. How can it be of Julia Kim? Magic? Common sense would exclude this scientific hypothesis of Dr.Santosh. This has been repeating itself several times in the presence of so many people. The Bishop is a witness. Julia Kim is not a magician, but a simple believer. She believes in the dogma of transsubstantiation. Here is a sign. Scientists would want to know if both X and Y chromosomes were present in the cells from the flesh and in the white blood cells, because of the claim of virgin birth. ***Why to involve the scientists in another controversy? There are grounds to accept virginal conception (not virginal birth) of Jesus in the historical tradition of the Gospels. I shall not delve into this more complex question whether there are X and Y chromosomes? They would ask that nuclear and mitochondrial DNA be sequenced, so Korean ancestry could be ruled in or out, and the correct geneology be determined. ***Whose genealogy? Korean ancestry? Why? Is this flesh coming from her stomach? The level of gullibility displayed in the quoted post indicates that the people involved in propagating such miracles do not want their claims to be subjected to real scientific tests, and face the prospect of disillusionment. **The best solution would be to take Dr.Santosh for the scientific discovery. To speak of gullibility in this case is another un-scientific statement. We do not need to propagate these miracles, they have happened several times in history of Christianity and have been investigated by scientists, except by Dr.Santosh... Thanks for suggesting scientific tests for
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is a saying :A wise man knows what he says, a fool says what he knows. We as medical doctors mostly say what we know from books, literature, journals, and broadcasted news. But do we know what we say? We say if you smoke, it causes cancer, but do we know why Curchill, FidelCastro, and many others never got cancer? We say coconut oil is bad for the heart; did all from the Konkan and Malabar coast die of heart disease for all these centuries? Do scientists know why there is no Chaos in the movement of the Universe.? It is also said : A fool may easily find more faults than a wise man can easily mend. ***I do agree with you, Dr.Ferdinando, that there is a lot of uncertainty in the scientific-medical field. People who never smoke nor drank alcohol die of cancer. Of course, due to other factors. But what a complexity of factors! Since Medicine is one of my areas of interest, I am giving the news about one physician who has investigated the Eucharistic miracle. You will not have any difficulty to accept it. Dr.Santosh Helekar, to whom I am offering these postings, should strike a better balance between what he knows and much that he does not know... Regards. Fr.Ivo Physician Tells of Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano Edoardo Linoli Verified Authenticity of the Phenomenon ROME, MAY 5, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Dr. Edoardo Linoli says he held real cardiac tissue in his hands, when some years ago he analyzed the relics of the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, Italy. The phenomenon dates back to the eighth century. A Basilian monk, who had doubts about the real presence of Christ in the sacred species, was offering Mass, in a church dedicated to St. Legontian in the town of Lanciano. When he pronounced the words of the consecration, the host was miraculously changed into physical flesh and the wine into physical blood. Later the blood coagulated and the flesh remained the same. These relics were kept in the cathedral. Linoli, a professor of anatomy and pathological histology, and of chemistry and clinical microscopy, and former head of the Laboratory of Pathological Anatomy at the Hospital of Arezzo, is the only doctor who has analyzed the relics of the miracle of Lanciano. His findings have stirred interest in the scientific world. At the initiative of Archbishop Pacifico Perantoni of Lanciano, and of the provincial minister of the Franciscan Conventuals of Abruzzo, and with authorization from Rome, in November 1970 the Franciscans of Lanciano decided to have the relics examined scientifically. Linoli was entrusted with the study. He was assisted by Dr. Ruggero Bertelli, retired professor of human anatomy at the University of Siena. Linoli extracted parts of the relics with great care and then analyzed the remains of miraculous flesh and blood. He presented his findings on March 4, 1971. His study confirmed that the flesh and blood were of human origin. The flesh was unequivocally cardiac tissue, and the blood was of type AB. Consulted by ZENIT, Linoli explained that as regards the flesh, I had in my hand the endocardium. Therefore, there is no doubt at all that it is cardiac tissue. In regard to the blood, the scientist emphasized that the blood group is the same as that of the man of the holy Shroud of Turin, and it is particular because it has the characteristics of a man who was born and lived in the Middle East regions. The AB blood group of the inhabitants of the area in fact has a percentage that extends from 0.5% to 1%, while in Palestine and the regions of the Middle East it is 14-15%, Linoli said. Linoli's analysis revealed no traces of preservatives in the elements, meaning that the blood could not have been extracted from a corpse, because it would have been rapidly altered. Linoli's report was published in Quaderni Sclavo di Diagnostica Clinica e di Laboratori in 1971. In 1973, the Higher Council of the World Health Organization (WHO) appointed a scientific commission to verify the Italian doctor's conclusions. The work was carried out over 15 months with a total of 500 examinations. The conclusions of all the researches confirmed what had been stated and published in Italy. The extract of the scientific research of WHO's medical commission was published in New York and Geneva in 1976, confirming science's inability to explain the phenomenon. Today, Linoli participated in a congress on Eucharistic miracles organized by the Science and Faith master's program of Rome's Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University, in cooperation with the St. Clement I Pope and Martyr Institute, on the occasion of the Year of the Eucharist under way. Eucharistic miracles are extraordinary phenomena of a different type, Legionary Father Rafael Pascual, director of the congress, told Vatican Radio. For example, there is the transformation of the species of bread and wine into flesh and
[Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
Fr.Ivo wrote: Miracles are assessed by scientific procedures as being extraordinary events, beyond the reach of the physical laws. I am giving more information about Lourdes Miracles. Regards. Fr.Ivo Cures and Miracles Near the busy medical bureau is a fascinating photographic display of pilgrims who have been cured, with notes about their conditions. This is open to the public. A lot of faith lies behind a cure but how do you demystify the beliefs surrounding Lourdes? Current medical opinion is hugely important in helping to define a miraculous cure, requiring an alliance between science and the church. A miracle is an extraordinary event, believed to be due to a benevolent divine intervention, to which is attributed a spiritual significance. Today, after intense medical and ecclesiastical refinement, the recognition of a cure or miracle requires four stages. Submission to an examination by the medical bureau of Lourdes When a pilgrim claims a cure he or she is examined by the pilgrimage doctor before being referred to the doctors at the medical bureau, which was established in 1947. This body is responsible for the first level of assessment when validating a cure. The pilgrim, along with their case notes, is examined by the presiding doctors, all witnessed by the rector of the sanctuary and the pilgrim's priest. The medical criteria for a cure must be satisfied. a.. The illness has been authenticated and the diagnosis is correct. b.. The prognosis of the disease must be clear cut, including those regarded as permanent or terminal in the near future. c.. The cure is immediate, without convalescence, complete, definitive, and lasting. d.. The prescribed treatment could not be contributed to the cause of the cure or an aid to it. When a cure is confirmed, collegial assessment requires the pilgrim to meet with the medical bureau over a further three years. If the majority of doctors wish, the file of the cured pilgrim will be sent to the Lourdes International Medical Committee (CMIL), which was established in 1954. Submission to an examination by the international committee The international medical committee assesses the cures over 10 to 15 years and observes the patient's development. It certifies medically any proposed file, so constituting the final judicial process. After a positive decision, the file of the cure is sent to the church authorities. Convening of the Diocesan Canonical Commission The duty of pronouncing a cure as a miracle rests with the bishop of the diocese of the person who has been cured. The Diocesan Canonical Commission of priests, canons, theologians, and doctors is called together and when its conclusions are positive the bishop asks the diocese to recognise the cure as a sign of God, a miracle.
Re: [Goanet] Lourdes Miracles
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] As you can see, the procedure described below is clearly not a scientific procedure of any kind. ***After all kinds of tests and monitoring, after all research by physicians of different nations and faiths (or no-faith), after long follow-up, it is un-scientific to say that it is not scientific procedure. A committee meeting chaired by a Bishop deciding by a 2/3 majority vote whether something is unexplained or inexplicable based on current knowledge, is possibly the farthest one can get from a scientific procedure. ***Dr.Santosh is again confusing the issues and not handling scientifically what has been presented to him by the Committee itself. The Bishop may or may not accept as a miracle what the majority of physicians, dealing with the case and consulted for the cases, deems to be medically not feasible. After a strict medical procedure, the case is defying medical science. An incurable case has been cured in that specific manner, as it is given by the criteria for miraculous cases. Out of 7,000 healings, only 68 are considered to be miracles. To deny is as un-scientific as to call any case a miracle. What's more, the fact that the committee members are presumed to be pious Christians, as stated below, with a strong ideological conflict of interest, and a vested desire to continue their hallowed traditions, makes this exercise not even a nominally objective one. ***By the fact of being Christians, they do not cease to be scientists. Pious Christians do not call any case a miraculous cure, but discover that Science could not do what has happened in the present case. We Christians do accept miracles, worked out by the power of God, as signs of his love, precisely because our reason tells us. Science tells us that it is objectively so. It is a long process. If we had just to find out miracles, one could easily find. In spite of medical progress, we know how difficult it is to cure diseases. The Christian does not invent miracles, nor expect that every suffering will be healed by medicine or by miracle, but accepts also suffering, for s/he knows the redemptive value of suffering. The deck is undoubtedly loaded and stacked in favor of affirming their preconceived beliefs. ***This is another un-scientific, gratuitous affirmation coming as it comes from a scientist. It is coming from his preconceived belief that there is no God, no miracles. It is his biased ideology... The claim that this is a scientific procedure is therefore laughable by any standard. ***The conclusion is clear: One cannot deny miracles by laughing at a scientific procedure. The procedure itself leads us to accept that it is beyond the scientific realm, to faith in miracles. It is laughable to find such a statement among scientists. Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] Young Jesuit Saints
--- On Thu, 8/7/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ***Let me correct the statement: Miracles are assessed by scientific procedures as being extraordinary events, beyond the reach of of physical laws. Dr.Santosh Helekar replied: The above statement is wrong. No scientific procedure is followed by anybody to assess any miracle. No genuine scientific field or study has ever certified any event as extraordinary, and proclaimed such a certification to be a valid scientific procedure. ***This statement is a classical example of 'scientific absolutism'. Not being a scientist myself by profession, but knowing what scientific procedure is, I lean on the authoritative statements of the scientific authorities and state again that there are 'unexplained', 'extraordinary' events, not to be explained by Science. We ascribe them to God's power. Being an agnostic, Dr.Santosh can only say that he does not know whether there is God or whether there are miracles. He cannot deny them. This would be un-scientific behaviour. Being limited to his specialization in Neuroscience, Dr.Santosh cannot speak for all the physicians of the world. I quote from Lourdes Medical Bureau. I have the full dossier of the miracles, published by the International Medical Committee of Lourdes. Cures and Miracles In 1859, Professor Vergez of the Faculty of Medicine at Montpellier was appointed to examine the cures. Seven cures were recorded before 1862 promoting the argument for the recognition of the Apparitions by Bishop Laurence. In 1905, Pope Pius X requested 'to submit to a proper process' the most spectacular of the cures of Lourdes. The Medical Bureau was set up to carry this out. Medical Bureau has two different meanings. It is, first of all, a place in the Sanctuary with two offices where a doctor practices. This doctor receives the declarations and begins an examination of the facts according to the traditional criteria as it was defined in the 18th century by Cardinal Lambertini the future Pope Benedict XIV for the process of beatification If the case appears serious, the doctor arranges a Medical Bureau which is a consultation where all the medical doctors, regardless of their religious persuasion, present in the Sanctuary on the day may attend. If the doctor of Lourdes and the gathered medical bureau find in favour the file is sent to the International Medical Committee of Lourdes (C.M.I.L.). This is made up of some 20 members, respected in their own particular area. This committee has been in existence since 1947. In 1954, Bishop Théas wanted it to have a true international dimension. This Committee is chaired jointly by the Bishop of Tarbes and Lourdes and one of its members nominated by the Bishop for a set period of time which can be renewed. The doctor of Lourdes is the secretary to this committee. This committee makes a judgement about a case. One or more of its members are them charged with examining it in detail and informing himself on all the medical literature published on related subjects... The person charged with the case may consult with colleagues on the outside. Normally the person concerned is not summoned to be present. The Committee meets once a year, in the autumn. They examine the current files. When everything is in place (this can take some time) the Committee decides by way of a vote whether to declare or refuse to confirm that this cure is inexplicable according to present scientific knowledge. A two-third majority is required for an affirmative vote. The medical result is sent to the bishop of the diocese where the cured person lives. The bishop would, naturally, have been kept up to date with the proceedings. If it appears that the result is going to be positive the bishop is advised, in advance, to set up locally a small medical committee who can, at the given moment, consider the conclusions of the Committee. In the light of current events, the Bishop can decide or abstain from recognising the miraculous character of this cure. As Christians, the physicians know that a miracle is a spiritual sign. They don't want to be judges on this matter. Moreover, for a modern mentality, it is difficult to say that something is inexplicable. They can only say that it is unexplained. +Jacques Perrier Bishop of Tarbes and Lourdes 17 March 2003
Re: [Goanet] Young Jesuit Saints
Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any religion honoring individuals as 'saints' is no different from other scientific fields which honors those who made a major contribution to the particular field; or fundamentally inspired others; or shifted the line of thinking leading to a paradigm shift in perspective. Dr.Santosh Helekar commented: The above equation of religion and science is absolutely wrongheaded. In no way is religion a scientific field nor is it in any way like a scientific field. *** As usual, Dr.Santosh is sounding his trumpet of slogans of conflict between Science and Religion. The parallelism between the Saints who have devoted their lives to the betterment of humankind and the Scientists who have devoted their skills to the uplift of the quality of life is valid. The Church calls Saints those who have lived a quality of life and worked for the betterment of the society. Science will praise those who have discovered new scientific-technological discoveries and have raised the standard of life. Science does not revere any scientist as a saint, no matter how eminent. ***Certainly not, that is the task of the Church. It simply recognizes his or her scientific contribution, and fully expects others to modify or improve upon it. ***Logically so, because Science deals with scientific skills. For example, unlike a religious committee that recognizes a saint, a Nobel prize committee does not have to certify that a new science prize winner has performed two miracles. ***Quite right, because Nobel Prize Committee does not canonize Saints. The contributions of scientists are supported by objective evidence. ***That is why it is called scientific field. They do not rely on supernatural entities and mechanisms, and they can always be confirmed or falsified by others. If falsified, the natural explanations that were inferred from them have to be modified or replaced by better supported ones. ***That is the definition of the scientific methodology applied to natural phenomena. Science grows step by step through the scientific hypotheses and theoretical models. Supernatural beings go beyond the scientific realm. This is not true of supernatural explanations and miracles, which are accepted entirely based on faith. ***Let me correct the statement: Miracles are assessed by scientific procedures as being extraordinary events, beyond the reach of of physical laws. They will be called miracles by theological authorities who ascribe these events to God through the intercession of the Saints. They are accepted with prudence. All human means should be used in the case. Miracles do not discredit Science. They are signs of God's existence. There is no conflict between the scientific discoveries and Faith. Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Cardinal's speech
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But it will enlighten Science in the meaning of the world and in the realm of values. I hope most people will reject interference of this type. The meaning of scientific concepts and explanations as they relate to the natural world should never be corrupted by any particular religious ideology. Scientific findings must be interpreted by science alone, in a dispassionate and unbiased manner. None of the multifarious conflicting supernatural ideologies should serve as a filter in interpreting anything that has to do with science. For example, the scientifically determined brain basis of mental illness should never be reconciled with or reinterpreted in the light of preconceived supernatural explanations justifying the belief in reincarnation or the practice of exorcism. *1.This answer does not contradict my statement, namely that Religion will enlighten Science in the meaning of the world and in the realm of values. Science should work with responsibility, but in itself it is value-free. It is Ethics that sheds its light on it. Religion and Philosophy entail ethical teaching. Therefore, Ethics should enlighten Science. This is not unlawful interference of Religion within the domain of Science. 2.Scientific concepts and explanations are not corrupted, but enriched and guided by Religion. Scientific findings have not been interpreted by science alone, in a dispassionate and unbiased manner. It needs light from Religion. That is the drama of today's scientific-technological world. As Albert Einstein has well predicted: Science can only be created by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding. This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion. To this there also belongs the faith in the possibility that the regulations valid for the world of existence are rational, that is, comprehensible to reason. I cannot conceive of a genuine scientist without that profound faith. The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind (Cf. Albert Einstein, Ideas and Opinions, New York, 1954, p.46; Einstein also says: The highest principles for our aspirations and judgments are given to us in the Jewish-Christian religious tradition. See Max Jammer, Einstein und Die Religion, Konstanz, 1995, p.43: cf. the discussion, reported by Max Jammer, which Einstein once had with Rabindranath Tagore about his book The Religion of Man, when Einstein said: I am more religious than you are!). In this line of thought, I have said in this Forum that there is no atheist scientist. The problem is with the anthropomorphic language applied to God. Hence, Einstein found it difficult to accept a personal God... 3. Comparative study of Religions enlightens us. Distorted elements in religions should be corrected, if they are multifarious conflicting supernatural ideologies. Basically, Religion should be based on Love. Destruction in the name of religions is baseless, a contradiction... 4. Religion does not question that mental illness is a disorder of brain. There should be dialogue. Science together with religion should discuss the phenomena that led to the acceptance of reincarnation and exorcism. It is unscientific to discard them blindly... Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] Einstein neither Atheist nor Pantheist
Dear Goanetters, In some postings of this Forum it was said that Albert Einstein was an atheist. There were rejoinders to them. I would like to quote his own words, wherein he says that he is neither an atheist nor a pantheist. ***Albert Einstein wrote: In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views. Einstein was often asked, Do you believe in God?, to which he sometimes replied I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the harmony of all being. By God, Spinoza wrote at the very beginning of his Ethica, I mean a being absolutely infinite-that is, a substance consisting in infinite attributes, of which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality. Proposition XV of the Ethica stated: Whatever is, is in God, and without God nothing can be, or be conceived. Once in answer to the question Do you believe in the God of Spinoza? Einstein replied as follows: I can't answer with a simple yes or no. I'm not an atheist and I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvellously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and the body as one, not two separate things. Although dead, let Einstein speak for himself. It was a lived faith in God. Comments will come later on, if need be. Regards. Fr.Ivo
[Goanet] Fw: Cardinal's speech
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] It would also be interesting to find out how many educated people seriously hold the view that science should not ignore supernatural ideas that are unprovable. ***Lightening damaged my modem/router and I could not work on Internet. Let it be clear from what I wrote earlier that a statistical survey will give us a view of different opinions. But this question cannot be solved by statistics. Science cannot go beyond its phenomenal realm. Supernatural cannot be proved by empirical Science. There are other sources of knowledge. Therefore, there is no sense in saying that science should not ignore supernatural ideas that are unprovable. They are unprovable by empirical sciences. There is verifiability of Faith. Let Theology take the responsibility... Regards. Fr.Ivo
Re: [Goanet] Fw: Cardinal's speech
From: Santosh Helekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Fr. Ivo C da Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Therefore, there is no sense in saying that science should not ignore supernatural ideas that are unprovable. They are unprovable by empirical sciences. There is verifiability of Faith. Let Theology take the responsibility... The above response is irrelevant to what was said in the target post of mine. There are more than a thousand different supernatural theologies in the world, all of them in mutual contradiction. I hope most people would not want any of them to interfere with science, or intervene in its affairs. ***These are gratuitous affirmations. Religion does not interfere with science in so far as it is a knowledge of natural world. But it will enlighten Science in the meaning of the world and in the realm of values. Religion has a place in the human existence. If there are thousands of religious views, what can Science do? Science cannot silence religious voices. Let Science limit itself to its domain. Like so many others, I am suggesting a dialogue between Science and Religions, since science and religions should help humankind. There should be also dialogue between different religions and joint struggle for justice and peace. Therefore, the same conclusion imposes itself, namely that there is no sense in saying that science should not ignore supernatural ideas that are unprovable... Regards. Fr.Ivo
