[Goanet] Goans Leaving Goa - Seeking Citizenship Elsewhere
Apparently many Goans are seeking to leaving Goa via various avenues, the most opted avenues was by the way of acquiring a Portugeese Passport. In my view, yes this is a clear failure of India towards Goa/Goans after invading the state in 1961 and making false promises. However with saying that, I believe that Goans have an obligation to preserve their state and identity, and not to turn their back on Goa. I appreciate that there are those who leave for economic reasons due to the failure of the Indian Government and successive Goa Government Failures (including the current one); but what's really sad is that even economically well off Goans are deserting their motherland. With the winds of change sweeping thru India on corruption etc there could be strong possibility that we Goans can use this change to have Goa as we would like to be, unfortunately Goans as always, lack in vision and always prefer the easy way out; I wonder if in the end is it really a better life they are going for or is it a mirage? Today are many outsiders who are ready to pay huge amounts to buy land in Goa, but small minded Goans are selling off their valuable properties , really sorry state of affairs with the Goan Mentality and love for their State/Identity!! -- Please post your comments on my Blog: http://goanidentity.blogspot.com/ Please also see below: 1. Benaulim Village Action Committee: http://www.bvacbenaulim.blogspot.com/ 2. Rape of Goa : http://www.parrikar.com/blog/the-rape-of-goa/ 3. MAND - an adivasi-rights resource centre : http://mandgoa.blogspot.com/ 4. EVERY GOAN SHOULD SEE THIS VIDEO: http://infochangeindia.org/Infochange-documentary.html 5. Goa's Identity Movement group on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com//#/group.php?gid=193497031686 6. Official Government Site NRI Office (GOA): http://www.globalgoans.org.in/
Re: [Goanet] Goans and Goa
Mervyn Lobo mervynal...@yahoo.ca wrote: There is some truth to this one. I find it less in the people born after 1961 but some of the Goans born just a few years earlier feel that they are different from the rest of Indians. And heaven forbid, if their skin tone is a shade lighter than yours, their complex's really start to dance. Comment: While the above comment may or may not be true with specific reference to Goans encountered by some among us, I wonder whether it is based upon: a: partial knowledge about Goans. b: non-knowledge of the colour preference/prejudice prevalent among residents of the subcontinent for 1000s of years.esp when it comes to marriage. What happened? We do not see the Marriage Adverts in the papers? And .. Is it that Goans invented the Varna (colour) based Caste System? jc
[Goanet] Goans and Goa
I like the script! Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão.
Re: [Goanet] Goans and Goa
From: Ana Maria Fernandes amferns_n...@hotmail.com He cannot afford a holiday every year because he gets only 15 days unpaid leave where as I am working for a small company which gives me 25 days paid leave and sometimes if my boss is in the mood he gives me 30 days paid leave. My husband's boss sends him to different parts of the world and my husband took me along paying for my ticket .Why should people talk so harsh to others just because you live in europe ? is Europe a heaven or a purgotary ? Ana...What made you think others get unpaid leave and that too only 15days? Please elaborate on how you bring your boss in the mood...! May help others on this list..:-) hAVE a nICE dAY! Seb
[Goanet] Goans and Goa
There is something about Goans which we seem to have overlooked, nay , ignored for the last 52 years and that is fake Latino complex which was inculcated in us during the colonial era. Take the case of a middle class Goan who settles down in the West and returns , say, after a stay of about 5 years among the sophisticated white society. Of course, he is subjected to racism which ,no doubt, subdues his a la Goa complex. He has to put up with snide racial remarks and has to keep his mouth shut, there being no other option. Then he comes to his old place called Goa and finds it is not an orderly place like he is used to in the West. His long suppressed complex comes to the fore and he uses it more to satisfy his ego than anything else.
Re: [Goanet] Goans and Goa
Antonio Menezes wrote: Take the case of a middle class Goan who settles down in the West and returns , say, after a stay of about 5 years among the sophisticated white society. Of course, he is subjected to racism which ,no doubt, subdues his a la Goa complex. He has to put up with snide racial remarks and has to keep his mouth shut, there being no other option. Antonio, While the society here in Canada may be a little more sophisticated than elsewhere, I do not believe it is a sophisticated white society. It may have been so 20 years ago. In the work place today, I see everyone instructing the newcomers on the norms of the workplace i.e no sexism, no racism, no discrimination on sexual orientation. More often than not, the people giving the instructions are not people who were born in Canada. The people receiving the instructions, and I have been guilty of this myself, sometimes have different reactions depending on how they view the presenter. When the presenter is a rude person from the receivers own background, the receiver recognises the presenter as just a rude person. When the rude presenter is from a different ethnic background, sometimes the receiver perceives the presenter as being racist. I am not saying that there is no racism in Canada. My contention is that a lot of times, rude behavior gets mistaken for racism. Then he comes to his old place called Goa and finds it is not an orderly place like he is used to in the West. His long suppressed complex comes to the fore and he uses it more to satisfy his ego than anything else. Anytime you chose to look down on your neighbour, it is you who has the problem. Sometimes the problem becomes so big that you find you cannot live with your former neighbours. There is something about Goans which we seem to have overlooked, nay , ignored for the last 52 years and that is fake Latino complex which was inculcated in us during the colonial era. There is some truth to this one. I find it less in the people born after 1961 but some of the Goans born just a few years earlier feel that they are different from the rest of Indians. And heaven forbid, if their skin tone is a shade lighter than yours, their complex's really start to dance. Mervyn Lobo BTW, and also related to a previous post, as far as names are concerned, every time I travel to Mexico on vacation, the immigration officer takes one look at the name on my passport and my complexion and starts talking to me in Spanish. When my wife answers in Spanish, the officer says, I am talking to him, let him answer. Every year I have to explain to the immigration officer that despite my name and good looks, my Spanish is limited to, Dos cervezas por favor, muy frío.
[Goanet] Goans and Goa
I do not know from time way back my childhood days Goans did not love Goa. Everything is green else where but in Goa. So many left Goa and migrated . They have taken that citizenship so if those who do not love Goa why call yourself Goans ? We are the unfortunate ones who have taken Goa as our motherland and have stuck to this dirty place. Beggars are no chosers so we cannot go anywhere and we find this place is ours. How many of us know that India's education is the best that is the reason USA has been importing scientist from India and are making them their citizens. India is a land of culture and we have moral values. Foreigners take pleasure in visiting and studying Indian history and geography and culture. India has lots of different types of dances. Bharat natiam, bangra dance , katakali are few to name. Many times those who have desserted us come to visit us and boast of the rich environment they are floating in but in reality some of them are working as waiters, stewards etc. I knew one Engineer working in Bombay and getting 60 thousand rupees a month some twenty years ago. His wife's dream was to settle in the west. They spent not less than 10 lakhs to get there and no job. He was working as a steward in a bar or restuarant. Officer in the rank nothing in the bank. I am not jealous. But I do not like anyone to say he or she was from Indian origin. You left India you left your identity. You do not love India or Goa do not come back go else where. am I insulting you ? no but you are insulting me. I feel insulted when some one comes and tells me that in the west it is like that what is GOa a land of what are these roads ? shi, cows and bulls on the road shi what is this in amerraica it is like this and in canada it is like that. In london it is like this and you cannot compare australia to goa what is goa a land of ghantis ? here this is what people have spat on my face. I keep quiet because I am earning rupees and what does it cost me to keep quiet Nothingwhen I spoke about Joe uk bab sending pictures of fish which I cannot buy some one from canada told me that so and so fish is there in toronto. He is boasting in fact I doubt whther the same guy can ever afford to buy fish as he is earning by the hour. He cannot afford a holiday every year because he gets only 15 days unpaid leave where as I am working for a small company which gives me 25 days paid leave and sometimes if my boss is in the mood he gives me 30 days paid leave. My husband's boss sends him to different parts of the world and my husband took me along paying for my ticket .Why should people talk so harsh to others just because you live in europe ? is Europe a heaven or a purgotary ?
Re: [Goanet] Goans seize Goa.......
Vivian A. DSouza wrote: Why now do we bring up this 50+ story of India's conquest of Goa ? It is past and done with. Let us look forward to what we can do to preserve our Goa and make it once again a clean, peaceful and safe place. Some may say that the battle is lost. I say never say never ! Bwana D'Souza, It seems (to me) that there are two camps of people here. One camp consists of people who are fixated on 1961 and pre-1961 Goa. The other camp consists of those who are concerned about the Goa of tomorrow. Goans are capable of anything. With the right focus and the right leadership, Goa can become a great place to live in. Like you, I am waiting for that Goan spring to begin. Mervyn
[Goanet] Goans celebrate Goa Day in Qatar
Goans celebrate Goa Day Doha: Doha Goans Sports Club (DGSC) organized “Goa Day” on Friday November 19 by presenting a number of cultural programmes at Doha Municipality Bldg conference hall near Museum Roundabout in Doha Qatar. The entire four and half hour programme was full of entertainment, with artists whipping up emotions using different tools like Goan festivals, customs, language, short skits and comedy shows. The audience witnessed a large dose of traditional Goan songs and dances from Goa, besides artist’s depicted different festivals and culture of Goa which form an integral part of Goan way of life back home in Goa. Comedy skits were also staged on the occasion. Walter Dias Executive Director of Unique Choice was the chief guest for the Goa Day. Vice President, Lubino Soares, welcomed the Guest of honor Rev. Father Anand Castelino, and Arthur Mendonca and Patron of the Club Basil Coutinho. Mathew Estrocio emceed the show and gave the welcome address. Some individuals were also honored on the occasion for their contribution to the Goan community and outstanding talents awards were presented to some budding artists. The Goan Community Welfare Award was presented to Basil Coutinho for services rendered towards the club and the community. The Young Talent Award (below 16) was presented to Belina D’Souza for her expertise in music and playing the saxophone at various functions at school and other programmes and shows. Outstanding Award (16 and above)was presented to Emelina Soares towards her performance in Arts, Sports and Drama. She recently performed in the Konkani Tiatr (Soglank Nomoskar) as a bride. She also performed in a theatre production of 'Wizard of OZ' in three roles. She also participated in three dance and play programs at the WORLD GOA Day celebrations in Doha, Qatar and will be performing in Bugsymalone (play) in December 2010. The advisor of DGSC, Mathew Estrocio, conveyed a message to the audience on the concept of World Goa Day and said that Goa Day is in preparation to unite all Goans to focus on their culture, tradition and Konkani language, to promote Sports, and motivate the young talents among us. Fr. Anand, said he was very pleased to witness a turn out of more than 500 guests and assured his full support for the cultural activities of the club. Mauricio Pereira gave a vote of thanks to all the sponsors and to all the Participants who put up the programme. The vice president Lubino concluded the show by thanking all who were present to witness the Gala event. World Goa Day is celebrated by designating a day specifically for Goans to reflect on the Goan identity and to consider what it means to be a Goan and taking pride in being one and to unite with Goans all over the world, in solidarity, to celebrate Goa’s history, Konkani language, music, cultural heritage and traditions. Goa day celebrations were first kicked off in 2000 by London-based Rene Baretto who is the brainchild behind the project. World Goa Day 2010 is being celebrated worldwide on 20th August, 2010, to mark the historic inclusion of Konkani language in the VIIIth Schedule of the Indian Constitution, making Konkani the official language of the State of Goa. This is the third event to be hosted by the recently revived DGSC, the first event was the hosting of the Konkani tiatr group from Goa, and the second was the inter-village football tournament which was by Calangute village team. Meanwhile, DGSC informed that they will be celebrating the feast of Francis Xavier on December 3 and will stage a Dine and Dance show on December 6, to celebrate the feast. DGSC also said that they will perform a repeat show of the four events staged at the Goa Day during the Francis Xavier feast day. http://bit.ly/GoaDayDoha2010
[Goanet] Goans in Goa are POW
It is high time Goans living in Goa realise that they are Prisoners Of War. It was in the news recently that one of the Goan Ministers who gets ‘chills’ being behind the ‘Church’ for being a Catholic, that Goa was “Conquered” by India; quoting the Supreme Court. So where are our “Freedom fighters” who take pride in boasting that they have “liberated” Goa hiding? Where is the freedom they harp on that they have given Goa and Goans? Why is the term “Liberation of Goa” being used? I tend to believe this Minister; as in every war, the conquerors always plundered the wealth of the conquered land, they raped their women, took with them some slaves, etc. The intelligentsia always fled and lived in exile. What is happening now in Goa is the same. The intelligentsia have left Goa; Goa is plundered left and right by the Indians, our conquerors. They have taken slaves who are ruling Goa and are forbidden to take any decision without running to the capital of India for receiving Orders from their Masters. Our agricultural land, forests, houses and women too are raped almost daily. A few of the Goans still in Goa who have not fled, are forming a “Resistance Group”; but with no arms and ammunition. Will they succeed? Dr. Ferdinando dos Reis Falcão. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Now available in Toronto, a few copies of *Into The Diaspora Wilderness* by Selma Carvalho. Contact Bosco D'Mello bo...@goanet.org (416) 803-7264 http://selmacarvalho.squarespace.com/
[Goanet] Goans in Goa face an identity crisis
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Two new showrooms/office spaces, double height (135 sq m each with bath) for lease in upscale Campal/Miramar beach area, Panaji, Goa. Contact: goaengineer...@aol.com Goans in Goa face an identity crisis More in: - Goa http://www.villagetinto.in/village/goa - Migration http://www.villagetinto.in/tags/migration - Society http://www.villagetinto.in/beats/society By: Village Tinto 40% of the 14.5 lakh population in Goa is today from other parts of India. Goa is thus undergoing a major change in its demography raising concerns of the preservation of the Goan Identity. According to a news reporthttp://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/city/goa/The-emergence-of-a-new-Goan-identity/articleshow/4977093.cms, while Goans protested the influx of migrants from other states after Goa's liberation, today there is no such agitation. This is because Goans realise that the development of the state depends on the migrants who are main labour force in the state. The situation is compounded as many Goans chose to leave the state for other cities in India or migrate overseas leaving a vaccum in Goa. This vaccum is then filled by persons from other Indian states. As they have become a part of the Goan community, serving it in many ways we should consider them as New Goans, says the writer. But the question raised in the end is how do Goans as a community, who in a few years will see themselves become the minority in the state, protect their own identity and culture? http://www.villagetinto.in/news/goans-goa-face-identity-crisis-415 -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London.
[Goanet] GOANS CELEBRATE GOA DAY 2007
GOANS CELEBRATE GOA DAY – 2007 Goa Day 2007 was celebrated in a grand style at the Indian Community School Auditorium in Salmiya – Kuwait on November 9, 2007, after a lapse of two years and yet it was hailed as an unique event. It was largely attended and the venue was packed to capacity, with some of the people having to go back to their dismay. Even though the start up time was announced as 10.00 a.m. Goa Day activities commenced at 11.30 a.m with a big bang, led by musician Socorro and his Jolly Boys leading the Presidents of the 14 Participating Clubs along with President of Goan Welfare Society to the stage set up in the Auditorium. The inaugural ceremony was a treat to watch when the Presidents of each participating Clubs contributed by way of solving a jigsaw puzzle, to put together all the parts of Goa (Talukas) on a specially designed board to depict the Map of Goa.Thereafter the President of the Goan Welfare Society, Wilson Coelho, officially declared the Goa Day 2007, opened to a thunderous applause from the mammoth crowd. In the traditional manner a prayer and singing of the hymn St. Francis Xavier, invoked the contributions of all those present to recognize the countless blessing that have been showered on the Goan community, over the years by the Patron Saint of Goa, for the success of Goa Day. A colorful Souvenir, published to mark the occasion, was released by the President of the Goan Welfare Society, in the presence of the Presidents of participating Clubs/Organizations. Similarly, the VCD entitled “Dukham” produced by Querobina Carvalho – comedy queen of the Konkani Stage, was inaugurated at the hands of the President of GWS. The Konkani songs singing competition, which is designed at encouraging Konkani, had a good response with participation of 35 school going children in various categories. The competition was conducted by Cajetan Pereira, Head of the GWS Cultural Cell, in accordance with a set rules and regulations of the competition. The three independent judges, Francis de Verna, Querobina Carvalho and Adolf Fernandes, who were entrusted to choose the best three of each of the 3 categories and they did a wonderful job. Our distinguished guests, Fr. Tony D’Souza – Director and Fr. Lionel Braganza, Principal both of Don Bosco school, who attended the singing competition were all praise for the excellent manner in which the competition was conducted and impetus given to Konkani. The curtains were raised for the next event, when Julio and McCloud, took over to take over the task of providing the best to the rocking people who came to rejoice at the sound of music produced by ‘Deep Impact’ and ‘2 Sharp’. They made sure that the people got the best from both the Bands and ensured the best was given to the rejoicing crowd. Later in the day, the Cultural Program was staged with renowned professional artists and amateur artistes of Konkani stage, who gave their best performance to a capacity crowd who enjoyed every moment of the Program hosted by Cajetan de Savordem and Ms. Janet Fernandes. The performance that stood out in the Cultural Program is that of Sanny de Quepem, who rendered a song “ EKVOTH MUNCHEAKULACHO” which convey the essence of Unity among human kind, more so among the Goans. All the other artistes were vociferous in their performance which was well acclaimed by the audience. The Chief Guest for the Goa Day, His Excellency, Ambassador of India to Kuwait, Shri M. Ganapati, was impressed in the manner in which the Goa Day was organized. He appreciated the unity that was displayed and stated that this was one occasion where he witnessed one of the largest attendance among the Indian Community, assembled under one banner. He was all praise for the Goans and was happy that Indians are in the forefront in socio-economic development of India. In his speech, Shri Eduardo Faleiro, NRI Commissioner and Ex-External Affairs Minister, who was a guest of Honor at the function expressed his happiness for having attended such a glamorous occasion. He commended the Konkani stage artistes, for their wonderful performance and praised their talent, being away from their motherland. He defined the purpose of his visit and expressed satisfaction at the way the Goans organize themselves and hold activities such as Goa Day. He presented a Memento – book on Kaleidoscopic Goa, a cultural Atlas and pictures of Velha Goa, the traditional hand painting Azuleijos, a collection of Mario Miranda - a renowned Goan Cartoonist. This Mega Event was sponsored by Western Union and others, who recognize the services and good nature of Goans who live in Kuwait. A day long event which will be long remembered by Goans in Kuwait, having witnessed the happenings at Goa day 2007 and for having made it a point to be a part of this grand celebration, went home totally satisfied. Discover the new Windows Vista Learn more!
[Goanet] Goans in Goa
Happy Birthday: St Britto's, which is 60 years old. Celebrations at St Jerome's Church Mapusa 11 am on July 30, 2006. Football match Loyola's vs. Britto's 11 am on July 31, 2006 at the school grounds. http://bmxgoa.com Elisabeth Carvalho (EC) wrote: The singular cry of some Goans in Goa, seems to be that anyone in diaspora shouldn't comment on topics relating to Goa, as all our opinions emanate from armchairs. Cecil Pinto (CP) responds: Some Goans in Goa feel that armchair analysts should get off their backsides and do proper studies before suggestion grandiose plans with no grounding in reality. -- EC: Excuse me, but I thought the idea of forums like this was to engage in dialogue with the diaspora and share perspectives, insights and experiences. If that is not the aim of this forum then perhaps it should have a disclaimer which either forbids us to participate or requests us to limit our discussions to religion, philosophy and politics of our adopted countries. When that gets too tedious, you can remind us that Goanet should focus on Goacentric issues. CP: Will the Admin Team please clarify whether the sole purpose of GoaNet is to 'engage in dialogue with the diaspora'. I didn't know that this was the primary purpose or even an important secondary purpose of this forum. I would like to engage in dialogue with Goans, and people with a stake in Goa, wherever they may be located. I have no particular interest in the 'diaspora' as a separate entity, specially if they don't have an economic stake in Goa. Perhaps I'm in the wrong place? Will someone from the Admin Team, or perhaps the founder, please clarify whether GoaNet is a 'diaspora' centric forum. - EC: In a world where information is exchanged at the press of a button, when images of war are relayed live, when stock-exchanges crash at the whiff of trouble thousands of miles away, when business does billions in trade halfway across the world, the arrogance and insularity of Goans in Goa, is not only unbecoming and unfashionable, but painfully parochial. CP: So Goans in Goa should be humble and arrogance should be the sole privilege of the diaspora? All that dramatic description of international business at the press of a button aside, what is important is that only those with a stake in Goa should be included in any decision making process regarding the future of Goa. If you can't be here and walk the talk, then at least invest your money in Goa and then talk. Else it's just empty rhetoric. Cheers! = ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa
Happy Birthday: St Britto's, which is 60 years old. Celebrations at St Jerome's Church Mapusa 11 am on July 30, 2006. Football match Loyola's vs. Britto's 11 am on July 31, 2006 at the school grounds. http://bmxgoa.com Elisabeth Carvalho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a world where information is exchanged at the press of a button, when images of war are relayed live, when stock-exchanges crash at the whiff of trouble thousands of miles away, when business does billions in trade halfway across the world, the arrogance and insularity of Goans in Goa, is not only unbecoming and unfashionable, but painfully parochial. Elisabeth, I submit to you that it's your thoughts that are painfully parochial. An example is your contention that stock-exchanges crash at the whiff of trouble thousands of miles away. It's nice that you post your views on this net but one should have some understanding of the facts before making absurd comments. Else you wind up like the poster from Ohio. Mervyn3.0 __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa rejoicing with Portugal win?
Hi Gadgil, When I mention a section who retained loyalties to the British, I didn't even remotely mean the Anglo-Indians. Being a community which was part-British and part-Indian, their own dual-loyalties could be well understood. It is nobody's case that Goans are part-Portuguese (except a very miniscule segment). Nobody doubts our, er, South Asian identity (to avoid a huge debate over whether it's Indian, or how long back India existed, whether it was a pre-1947 reality, etc...) But, as in the case of some Goans, those who had it good during the British Raj also retain their loyalties. This is not restricted to Catholics alone, though it is also a fact that many Hindus did not have it good during colonial times, what with its theocracy and open discrimination till 1910. And, for India as a whole, it's not just a case of one Niradh Chaudhuri alone; but maybe the rest of India is a much wider sea, so these complex-to-explain situations are less obvious. The bond which Goa has with English obviously isn't much of a colonial legacy. Hardly so. It has nothing to do with that, in fact. Apart from the Arpora Fr Lyon's School and Saligao's Mater Dei, the rest of the prominent English language schools (Britto's, St Mary's, Loyola's, Don Bosco's, etc) all came up in the mid-forties in Goa. The switchover from Portuguese to English was a post-1961 phenomenon, except among those who migrated earlier to what was 'British Africa' or other parts of the English-speaking world (including Bombay, Karachi, and the many cantonment towns or railway centres). Am not very sure that the opposition to colonial rule came from the poor and the underpriviledged. Actually, it seems to be the contrary. In India too, at least a section of the Dalits saw in the British a force which could counter 'upper' caste dominance in their lives. In some ways, it is understandable. I'm not saying the poor were less patriotic. They simply had too little at stake in a caste/class defined society, which had watertight compartmentalisation and little possibility of mobility. Besides, the more affluent sections -- not that they were more patriotic -- also had more to lose. Reinterpretations of the Pinto's Revolt (not involving too many Pintos, incidentally), and viewing it as a battle for a spot in the colonial sun, also suggest this. In Goa, the situation is more complex in other ways too. It somehow seems that the battle against the Portuguese, at least in the early phase of its revival in the 1930s and 1940s, was led predominantly by the Catholic Chardo, and specially the Chardo from Salcete. (A brief look at the names of freedom-fighters of this period tends to confirm this reality. Some prominent names, for instance, Menezes Braganza, TB Cunha, FL Gomes ... though of an earlier period, and hotbeds of anti-colonial protests in places like Cuncolim, etc) This is a tentative view, and I would stand to be corrected by someone who has looked at this angle deeper. One needs a better explanation of why this happened, or why the others took their time to get involved. Was the Brahmin Catholic more closely incorporated in the colonial scheme of things (as was the case with the Congress in the 1980s, while led to what could be interpreted as a Catholic Chardo revolt leading to the PDF experiment)? Did the subaltern castes have too little a stake anyway? Was it a question of where leadership first took root? Was it simply peer-pressure and accidents of history at work? Did heavier out-migration from Bardez explain the geographical imbalance? It would be an interesting exercise to map the rise of social ideas among various social groups, specially on the political field. Just my two paisa worth. FN On 06/07/06, Vidyadhar Gadgil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, there is plenty of Anglophilia in India, witness characters like Nirad C. Chaudhuri who made a religion out of it. But as you yourself point out, there is a clear class component to this. Why look at others, when we hold up a mirror to ourselves, there is probably a fascination with things British (or Portuguese, as the case may be). The bond we have with the English language is telling. To paraphrase the historian D.D. Kosambi (who incidentally happened to be a Goan), the Indian elites and middle-classes carry the mark of the coloniser upon their tongues, in the form of the English language. It has been persuasively argued by a number of historians (particularly those of the subaltern school) that the opposition to colonial rule was more among the poor, underprivileged sections of Indian society, rather than among the middle and upper classes, who probably played some comprador bourgeoisie kind of function and actually benefitted from colonial rule. In Goa as in the rest of India, I suppose -- -- Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha http://fn.goa-india.org| +91(832)2409490 Cell
Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa rejoicing with Portugal win?
On 07/07/06, Frederick FN Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Gadgil, When I mention a section who retained loyalties to the British, I didn't even remotely mean the Anglo-Indians. Being a community which was part-British and part-Indian, their own dual-loyalties could be well understood. It is nobody's case that Goans are part-Portuguese (except a very miniscule segment). Nobody doubts our, er, South Asian identity (to avoid a huge debate over whether it's Indian, or how long back India existed, whether it was a pre-1947 reality, etc...) RESPONSE: Fred, believe it or not, in East Africa, Goans set themselves apart, ( From Indians) most if not all alluded to being Portuguese! Indeed many had Portuguese Passports, including my mother! When I posted a slight anti bias against the Portuguese football team recently on Goanet, I received a lot of direct abuse in my inbox So you can make what you want of it, perhaps 'blood is thicker' than water? -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa rejoicing with Portugal win?
That's not unexpected. I think Portuguese cultural colonialism was very strong, together with the switch in religion they effected. Add these two facts to the reality that the Portuguese managed to keep the general population very apolitical (and we can't just blame Salazar for that) inspite of having tools like the printing press in Goa right from 1556! On top of that was the reality that Goans did fairly well for themselves (in a middle-class sense, not like, say, the Parsis who were into trade and enterprise big time, and some even connected to the opium exports to China). So, understandably, there was little of a fire-in-the-belly. Or any need to feel dissatisfied with the system. Even if to survive, a large section of the population had to scour the world. Literally. Freedom fighters in Mumbai admit that they had a tough time rousing the Goan population out of their smug existence. But, to be fair, the few who revolted did so in a rather drastic manner. Whether it's a T B Cunha or a F N Souza and many, many more. Is it any coincidence that those who fought the Portuguese also did so against their religion? By contrast, the British (and, to a lesser extent, the French) probably just knew when it was best to call it a day! FN On 07/07/06, Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 07/07/06, Frederick FN Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Gadgil, When I mention a section who retained loyalties to the British, I didn't even remotely mean the Anglo-Indians. Being a community which was part-British and part-Indian, their own dual-loyalties could be well understood. It is nobody's case that Goans are part-Portuguese (except a very miniscule segment). Nobody doubts our, er, South Asian identity (to avoid a huge debate over whether it's Indian, or how long back India existed, whether it was a pre-1947 reality, etc...) -- -- Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha http://fn.goa-india.org| +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436 -- 2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/ ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] Goans in Goa rejoicing
I would like to add to what Fred writes apropos the above subject. Religion during the Portuguese rule played a big role in the social and political lives of the people.I say political because many a time the religious head was also a part of the ruling dispensation besides the usual State -religion established nexus.Religion was used to exercise total control over the people. The fear of God was so ingrained in the psyche of the people that very few dared to raise even a whimper of protest.Add to that the fear of the 'cabo' and the cane especially for the Hindus.Fear had made everybody meek and humble. That was the political climate of the time. Hence it was left only to the priests - the main conspirators in the Pinto Conjuracao were three priests - to raise the banner of revolt though it was more for personal reasons of hurt egos and hurt prospects rather than patriotic fervour per se. Even the others like T.B.Cunha who today are termed as fiery revolutionaries were products of the seminaries or had come under 'outside influences'.These were the renegades. Of course there was a segment of society that could have driven away the Portuguese but they are never known to bite the hand that fed them. On the contrary they connived with the whites as is their wont to land them the plum places and plump for the best lands.They made hay while the sun shone. For them the going was really good and they are enjoying the fruits of their duplicity till this day. Really speaking there wasn't any voice of freedom in Goa which was bereft of a selfish motive and was based on any sort of idealogy. An idealogical movement would have considered the option of Goa as a separate entity. Perhaps a couple of reasons have endeared the Portuguese to the Goans: the crime-free atmosphere and the justice system. And of course life in Goa was 'sossegado' thanks to the Portuguese. Richard Cabral Candolim ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa rejoicing with Portugal win?
On Tue, 2006-07-04 at 20:58 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Frederick \FN\ Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks, Cornel, Gabe and Fredrick and Dominic for your responses. Yes, there is plenty of Anglophilia in India, witness characters like Nirad C. Chaudhuri who made a religion out of it. But as you yourself point out, there is a clear class component to this. Why look at others, when we hold up a mirror to ourselves, there is probably a fascination with things British (or Portuguese, as the case may be). The bond we have with the English language is telling. To paraphrase the historian D.D. Kosambi (who incidentally happened to be a Goan), the Indian elites and middle-classes carry the mark of the coloniser upon their tongues, in the form of the English language. It has been persuasively argued by a number of historians (particularly those of the subaltern school) that the opposition to colonial rule was more among the poor, underprivileged sections of Indian society, rather than among the middle and upper classes, who probably played some comprador bourgeoisie kind of function and actually benefitted from colonial rule. In Goa as in the rest of India, I suppose. And Dominic, I'm not saying there's anything 'wrong' with it, was just expressing some curiosity about the fact that in Goa it seems to be okay to be open in supporting Portugal, while it's not quite the done thing to be seen supporting England in the rest of India. Hi Gadgil, With Portugal, the responses -- both of likes and dislikes -- tend to be far deeper than is the case with our British colonial cousins. Agreed. But then, Goa is a far smaller place, Lisbon ruled (part of) the area for as long as 451 years, brought about some very far-reaching changes in language or culture and religion here (specially in the 'Old Conquests') and also probably took better care of local elites (across the religions) and other priviledged sections than did the British. But my friends from areas like the Bengal do say that Anglophilia is not unpresent there. Maybe someone who knows the situation better could correct me on that. FN -- Question everything -- Karl Marx ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa rejoicing with Portugal win?
On 06/07/06, Vidyadhar Gadgil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2006-07-04 at 20:58 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, there is plenty of Anglophilia in India, witness characters like Nirad C. Chaudhuri who made a religion out of it. But as you yourself point out, there is a clear class component to this... RESPONSE: I am not expert but could this have some correlation/similarity, to 'Stockholm syndrome' ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_Syndrome Gabe ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa rejoicing with Portugal win?
While I'm not a Goan in Goa, I'm not sure what the big deal is here. Even though I don't have a dog in this fight, I rejoiced in Italy's stunning victory last night and will rejoice if Portugal defeats the French tonight. I always support a southern European team over a northern European team. So, sue me. I don't know what other Goans think, but as a very general rule, I lean towards other ex-colonials, followed by the southern Europeans, because some of the cultural heritage I identify with comes from Portugal. While I remain staunchly against colonialism, Goa's colonialism was a fact and is now simply an interesting part of our history. I don't hold it against the Portugal of today, and believe the Portuguese are very nice people. Similarly I feel more comfortable around southern Europeans from Portugal to Greece than northern Europeans. While I grew in British India, and feel very comfortable with individual Brits, I don't feel the same sympatico with their country and other northern Europeans as I do with Portugal, Spain, Italy or Greece. I think it has to do with the fact that the Brits were very cool on a day-to-day interpersonal level, and were basically contemtuous of their colonial populations. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Mario --- Gabe Menezes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 04/07/06, Frederick FN Noronha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Gadgil, With Portugal, the responses -- both of likes and dislikes -- tend to be far deeper than is the case with our British colonial cousins. Agreed. But then, Goa is a far smaller place, Lisbon ruled (part of) the area for as long as 451 years, brought about some very far-reaching changes in language or culture and religion here (specially in the 'Old Conquests') and also probably took better care of local elites (across the religions) and other priviledged sections than did the British. But my friends from areas like the Bengal do say that Anglophilia is not unpresent there. Maybe someone who knows the situation better could correct me on that. FN RESPONSE: Yes, Fred, I have seen many a documentary depicting the descendants of the original Anglo Indians hankering for times gone!! Afternoon tea dancing? Only in the Hill Stations and perhaps Calcutta! Although tally ho still exists in South India? -- DEV BOREM KORUM. Gabe Menezes. London, England ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa rejoicing with Portugal win?
Hi Vidyadhar To be fair, it is not unreasonable for people anywhere to cheer a good football side purely on sporting grounds. However, I think you are insinuating that it seems odd that the Goans should cheer the Portuguese side because of the former colonial connection. Let me offer a slightly different consideration to your little dilemma. You will have read Priyamvada Gopal's trenchant criticism of revisionist history in her essay Imperial Apologists Peddle Poisonous Fairytale. This is of course, a criticism of Niall Ferguson's current revisionist historical work-- Imperial British History. Her reference to historical evidence seems excellent to me. I was familiar and have been very pained about the British made famine in Bengal etc where so many died quite unnecessarily and much has been rightly written about this and other terrible British atroticities in India. However, Gopal would have found, if she had looked for it, that 'revisionist' history, if we can use such teminology, began in Goa, among perhaps significant numbers, on 19th December 1961 and has continued relatively unabated since then. This is the real mystery worthy of systematic study--perhaps for you to examine, having started with your enigmatic football cheering question in Goa. Cornel - Original Message - From: Vidyadhar Gadgil [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa rejoicing with Portugal win? On Sun, 2006-07-02 at 22:08 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Jose Colaco [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Goanet] Not Yet on GoaNet ...but SAY WHAT ??! Goans in Goa rejoicing with Portugal win? The following articles are interesting. I wonder whether they reflect the true mood of Goans in Goa. I confess that I have always been mystified by this reported attitude of Goans towards Portugal, or is it a misrepresentation? One would have thought that after the experience of colonial rule, Goans would feel negatively towards the Portuguese. But here they are actually cheering them on? Contrast this with the attitude in the rest of India towards the British. Rahul Dravid recently endeared himself to the country at large. Interviewed after the 3rd test (played in Trinidad), he was asked whether he would be supporting Trinidad Tobago in their FIFA World Cup match against England that evening. He gave a mischievous grin and said Anybody but England! And the majority of Indians said a heartfelt 'Amen'. Contrast this with the reported attitude in Goa towards the Portuguese. Or are these just journalistic biases? In the rest of India, even if somebody actually supported England (against anybody else), they would probably keep their views to themselves, out of fear of being identified as upper-class collaborators with colonial rule. What gives? Reading what is posted by our regular journos on GoaNet, it does not appear that the stories are that accurate. Are they? ...or are we being ONLY selectively fed news/revision based on the personal biases of some of the journos? -- Question everything -- Karl Marx ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Goans in Goa rejoicing with Portugal win?
Hi Gadgil, With Portugal, the responses -- both of likes and dislikes -- tend to be far deeper than is the case with our British colonial cousins. Agreed. But then, Goa is a far smaller place, Lisbon ruled (part of) the area for as long as 451 years, brought about some very far-reaching changes in language or culture and religion here (specially in the 'Old Conquests') and also probably took better care of local elites (across the religions) and other priviledged sections than did the British. But my friends from areas like the Bengal do say that Anglophilia is not unpresent there. Maybe someone who knows the situation better could correct me on that. FN On 03/07/06, Vidyadhar Gadgil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I confess that I have always been mystified by this reported attitude of Goans towards Portugal, or is it a misrepresentation? One would have thought that after the experience of colonial rule, Goans would feel negatively towards the Portuguese. But here they are actually cheering them on? -- -- Frederick 'FN' Noronha | Yahoomessenger: fredericknoronha http://fn.goa-india.org| +91(832)2409490 Cell 9822122436 -- 2248 copylefted photos from Goa: http://www.flickr.com/photos/fn-goa/ ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
