Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- I think I would like to restate my position, at the cost of repetetion. I fully accept that nudity in art is part of Hindu tradition. I fully accept that some Hindu gods and goddesses have been depicted in the nude. I fully accept that erotic art is part of Hindu tradition. But I DO NOT accept that depiction of Hindu gods and goddesses in nude is part of Hindu tradition. Krishna as a child is very often depicted in the nude. But Krishna as an adult is not. Krishna is called makhan chor (butter thief). But the word 'chor' will always be qualified with 'makhan'. This aspect of Krishna is celebrated not only in a visual form, but also in devotional songs. There are many such visual and audio images, and hence they are a rule. Krishna as an adult, to the best of my knowledge, has never been depicted in the nude. And he is not depcited in erotic positions. If at all such visuals exist, then I would say they are exceptioins. I, however, acknowledge that he is depcited in an embrace with Rahda - but I do not think that Hindus consider this as an erotic embrace. Krishan as an adult is known, amongst other things, for the Gita. Hindus do not reject his sayings in the Gita because he was a 'makhan chor'. I have not seen Ram as a child being depicted in the nude. Nor have I seen Radha or Sita as children being depcited in the nude. But if they are, then I would say that they are exceptions. Hindus accept Kama Sutra as part of their heritage. Just as they accept the Gita, the Vedas, etc., as part of their heritage. And they are proud of them all. This is the position from where I come. So, when Santosh Helekar says that there are many images of Hindu gods and goddesses in the nude, I would like to respectfully disagree with him. He has given a link to his message of 2 years ago where there are photos of nude and erotic temple art. This link is really the same as he had posted earlier - namely that of the pictures taken by one Kamat. The word 'many' is, of course, problematic. One out of two would be many. One out of ten would be a borderline case. One out of a hundred, that is one percetn, would not be many. However, what about one perecent of one lakh? That would come to one thousand. Would it be classified as 'many'? In the context of one percent, I think not. I would remind Santosh that in his earlier post he said that he found two temples in Goa with erotic images, but he did not say whether they are of gods and goddesses. I would also like to remind him that said that he had to search for these images. Sachin Phadte _ Timely update on all current affairs, sports, events and all thats in News here on MSN videos. http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-in
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- --- Sachin Phadte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The word 'many' is, of course, problematic. One out of two would be many. One out of ten would be a borderline case. One out of a hundred, that is one percetn, would not be many. However, what about one perecent of one lakh? That would come to one thousand. Would it be classified as 'many'? In the context of one percent, I think not. I have never seen a state of denial expressed in such complex mathematical terms! Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- In his message, Mervyn Lobo talks about a TV channel called SEXTV. And he says that on it there were a few seconds of visuals showing carvings of men and women in sexual position. If anyone even cursorily looks at my message, I have accepted that there are such carvings in some Hindu temples. I do not know why I have to repeat myself so many times in my contention that these are not Hindu deities and that such carvings are exception and not not a rule. It is really getting very tiring. Sachin Phadte _ Watch hottest Bollywood videos, clips, movie tailors, star interviews, songs and more on MSN videos. http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-in
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- Sachin I agree with you, but you will be waiting a long time to get any sense of our some of the posters who have other agendas themselves. This whole thing has gone across many borders and back again, and again. This thread has worked its way into my brain out of my left ear, circling round into my right ear, and out of my eyes now.. We need now to let up, let them bray! When it gets a bit rough, you will not be alone, I the few left, will be there, right next to you, on this subject. May you continue to enjoy your peace, be patient... you have an abundance of it, thankfully. John Monteiro - Sachin Phadte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ..I have accepted that there are such carvings in some Hindu temples.these are not Hindu deities and that such carvings are exception and not not a rule. It is really getting very tiring. Sachin Phadte -
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- --- Sachin Phadte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If anyone even cursorily looks at my message, I have accepted that there are such carvings in some Hindu temples. I do not know why I have to repeat myself so many times in my contention that these are not Hindu deities and that such carvings are exception and not not a rule. It is really getting very tiring. Among other things, it has been pointed out to Sachin time and again that many of these erotic sculptures do depict Hindu deities. Here is one such post from 2 years ago with descriptions and photographs: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg35628.html Uma and Shiva, Radha and Krishna, and Rati and Manmatha are members of the Hindu pantheon. Cheers, Santosh
[Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- The Rape of Goa - A photo documentary by Rajan P. Parrikar Venue: Menezes Braganza Art Gallery, Panjim, May 21-24, 2008 http://www.parrikar.org/misc/doc-notice.pdf --- To my specific question: Kindly let me know who else has been 'more liberal' than Hussain? I am hearing this for the first time. Sandeep Heble writes: Here is another painting drawn by a Goan artist Govind Raj Bhandare that the HJS seem to be having problems with, despite such kinds of paintings being a common place in contemporary Hindu art. So, there are two painters who have been liberal with the Hindu deities. Are there any more? I am asking in context whether such painters are the rule or the exception, and not with an intention of chalking up numbers. As per the description provided by Sandeep of the objectionable painting, I wonder how he says that it is more liberal than Hussain's. As I have stated the arch secularist found at least one of Hussain's painting to be incredibily erotic. I do not think that this painting would be so classified. Perhaps Sandeep has a better understanding of art than I do. Incidentally, did Bhandare paint other Hindu gods and goddesses in such a 'liberal' manner? Sachin Phadte _ No Harvard, No Oxford. We are here. Find out !! http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=500
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
Sachin Phadte wrote: Perhaps Santosh can tell how many temples in Goa, for example, have, one, nude sculptures (not necessarily of gods), and, two, out of them how many are there were gods and goddesses are depicted. Sachin, Here in Toronto, we have a Tv channel called SEXTV. Yes, a channel entirely devoted to sex, running 24 hours a day. I was watching a show on this channel a few months ago and saw program where a British couple took a two week holiday to Goa to study sex and sexual positions from the Kamasutra. The instructors were Europeans. During the show, the instructors took the students to visit a Goan temple. All that was left of the temple was the carved stone base. This base was carved before the Portuguese arrived. The program had a few seconds showing the carvings on the base of the temple. It clearly showed men and women in sexual positions. Rajan Parrikar has taken pictures of the same temple and posted them on Goanet. Mervyn3.0 __ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
[Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Sandeep Heble claims that Hussain tendered his apology to all the Hindus whose sentiments he had hurt. Let us take this at the face value. If so, then surely Hussain has accepted that he transgressed his freedom. Why then Sandeep brings in the argument of freedom of expression into play? I believe Hussain has also claimed such a freedom. Surely then his apology is insincere. And those who make the argument of freedom of expression are also being insincere. Incidentally, I have quoted an arch secularist, Tarun Tejpal, who was apalled at one of the objectionable picture that he saw - yet he decided that Hussain deserves defending. Sandeep says that Hussain also offered his critics to subject his entire lifeworks to the rigorous Agni Pariksha or the Hindu sacrifice test. This is typical red herring to divert the attention. The objection to Hussain's paintings are specific, and not general. His secular paintings (even if they are of nude forms) are of no concern to those who object to his paintings of Hindu gods and goddesses in erotic positions. Sandeep says: This issue could have been given a decent burial then and there. But the Hindu Militants were just not willing to listen. The ones who are not willing to listen are those who call themselves secularists. As I said above one can say that one apologises and yet claim some freedom. i leave it to the judgement of the members on this list to determine who has refused to give the whole issue a decent burial. Here I would like to narrate the incident of a French fashion house which displayed a dress with Arabic lettering, which were said to be from the Koran. An Imama in Paris objected to it. The very next day, the head of the fashion house went to meet the Imam and informed him that the dress has been destroyed. I think this is the way to give a decent burial. Sandeep asks me whether I want Hussain's head along with a share of the 51 Crore bounty? This is one of the most obnoxious personal statement I have read on this forum. And if he said it as a joke, as he would like to project by including a smiley mark, I think it is in atrociously bad taste. Sachin Phadte _ Timely update on all current affairs, sports, events and all thats in News here on MSN videos. http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-in
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Santosh Helekar says, Personally, I have seen temple friezes with nude images in two Goan temples because I made a deliberate effort to find them on the suggestion of a friend. One has to look for these features carefully. Does this not mean that the friezes are not part of the main attraction in the temples? If so, then should not one conclude that they are the exceptions (and it would seem rare exceptions) than the rule? Santosh also says: But as I had pointed out earlier, others have reported that erotic temple art is fairly common in India. Kamat's Potpourri, to which I had referred earlier, says that there are a large number of such temples in Karnataka alone. Here are some pictures you can browse through again to refresh your memory: http://www.kamat.org/picsearch.asp?search=eroticPageNo=1; When one says 'fairly common', then how is it that Santosh says one has to look for the friezes carefully? I had looked at the website earlier. There are 294 photos which match the word 'erotic'. I saw the first two pages, and to me that it is not very clear whether they all refer to temple art or secular art. I think a few are secular art. And out of these 294, I do not know how many are those that relate to Hindu gods and goddesses. Looking at the labels of the first two pages, I did not find a single one that says that the figures relate to gods or goddesses. I do not have the time or the inclination to do the statistics. I think it is for those who claim that such art is common in temples and that Hindu gods and goddesses are often erotically depicted to let us know the details. At least in my consciousness of visiting temples, I would conclude that depicting Hindu gods and goddesses in erotic positions is a very rare exception, and hence cannot be said to be part of the Hindu culture. Santosh also says: Moreover, genitalia worship is a time-honored practice in Indian temples. I don't know whether you know this, but the Shiva Linga is a fusion of the male and female genitalia. Again, Santosh makes a very broad statement about genitalia worship. At least I have not been to ANY temple where there was genitalia worship. Of course, I am not a person who spends all his leisure time visiting temples, but I do go whenever possible. So my sample may not be as extensive as Santosh's. RE Shiv Linga. The interpretation of the ling as genitalia is of recent origin, and has come about with the translations of the Hindu texts in the western language. The important point is how the worshippers of the ling look at the object. Last year, a friend of mine told me that his elder sister told him that she did not know that the ling is supposed to be a phallic symbol. And she has been going to a Shiv temple for nearly 40 years! Incidentally, I understand form my friend that she still goes to the temple, and it has not made her into a sex maniac! Santosh says: I am not impressed by the emotion behind calls to prosecute Hussain or to ban female dancers in restaurants. Their art is not offensive to me. But even if it was, I would not let my feelings drive me to curtail the harmless exercise of someone else's freedom. Since he says that he does not support the ban of female dancers in restaurants, I presume he passes the test that I had proposed, namely that he would not have any objection if any of his very close relatives visits such restaurants, or that they perform in such restaurants. I would also presume that he would have no objection if anyone paints him and his family in an orgy scene. As far as 'freedom' is concerned, we have had a discussion on this issue on this forum in the recent past. I think such 'freedom' also comes with responsibilities. For example, I had said that the freedom to swing one's arm ends where my nose begins. I also presume that Santosh thinks it was wrong on part of the Government of India to ban some ads which were considered to be obscene, and also wrong on part of the TV channels to tender an apology for displaying the ads. I also read that in the UK, the advertising council has asked an airline to discontinue an ad which they said depicted a school girl in a sexually luring pose. And the French government banned a hoarding which used the imagery of the scene of the Last Supper by substituting women in modern fashion clothes. Sachin Phadte _ 2000 Placements last year.
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Sachin wrote: I do not have the time or the inclination to do the statistics. Despite admitting that he does not have the time and inclination to do the statistics, Sachin believes he is right when he claims that nude images of Hindu gods and goddesses are exceptionally rare. His latest response to my post is a collection of fallacious assumptions and erroneous conclusions, some of which are framed as rhetorical questions. I summarize the fallacies embodied in them below: Fallacy 1. Something that is not a main attraction has to be a rare exception. It cannot be a general rule. The fallacy in this is evident from the fact that every old Goan house, as a general rule, used to have a dhukrancho cumao or sondass (pig-powered outhouse) in the backyard, which never was the main attraction of any house. Fallacy 2. Something for which one has to look carefully cannot be fairly common. The fallacy in this is evident from the fact that old Goan houses fairly commonly used to have a maallo or an attic, which one had to look carefully to find. Fallacy 3. One can draw definite generalized conclusions supporting one's preconceived beliefs from seeing just the first few pictures from a websearch output of 294 pictures. The above fallacy is self-evident. Fallacy 4. One has to by necessity advocate the ban of any harmless legal activity that one does not prefer his relatives to engage in, and/or its converse. The fallacy in this is evident from the selfish and self-righteous absurdity it is, when any Hindu who does not want his relatives to eat beef, campaigns for the ban of the sale of beef and bovine meat products. Fallacy 5. One has to make decisions about restricting other people's rights by exaggerating, distorting and painting hypothetical scenarios involving one's own relatives. This fallacy is illustrated by the following statement of Sachin: I would also presume that he would have no objection if anyone paints him and his family in an orgy scene. ...Sachin Phadte Cheers, Santosh --- Sachin Phadte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does this not mean that the friezes are not part of the main attraction in the temples? If so, then should not one conclude that they are the exceptions (and it would seem rare exceptions) than the rule? When one says 'fairly common', then how is it that Santosh says one has to look for the friezes carefully?
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- There has been much controversy over this, I am curious to know which Hindu God(s) and / or Goddesses were painted or sculptured in the nude with the intention that they are shown naked in the public forum (inside or outside the temple)? I am aware of nude sculptures paintings of human beings, in various poses, some sexual, others a la mode, on the outside of the temples, especially in Tamil Nadu (Madurai etc), and of course you see some outside many other temples, all over the world. I have not yet seen or heard of any nude human form (portraying human beings, nor Gods or Goddesses) inside a temple. We are all born naked, therefore many sculptures of the Gods Goddesses from ancient times, made from stone, wood other materials, were shown in the naked form as we are, but all the Gods Goddesses were then fully clothed in the eyes of the devotees. I have personally never seen a naked God or Goddess displayed to the devotees in any temple I have ever entered, nor have I heard of any naked deity being displayed in this fashion, with one exception where there were some ancient worshippers of Kali Maa who may have seen her clothes in disarray due to factors relating to her demeanor at the time (too involved to go into great detail here, but she was not displayed naked, nor was it meant to be seen that she was naked). Some Goddesses are shown in full bloom (busty to the point of falling out of their clothes) but were always modestly clothed, no different to her devotee who may be oversized, so this is besides the point, so I would ask anyone on Goanet, or elsewhere if they have actually seen for themselves any Hindu Gods or Goddesses displayed on purpose by the priests of the temple, to show them in the nude, being worshipped in temples (or outside), in the nude, or posing with animals in a sexual way, other than those of Mr Hussain's work. Any photos to confirm this would be gratefully received. John Monteiro --- --- Sachin Phadte wrote: The judgement talks about erotic art in Hindu temples. This point too was also discussed on this forum, and the point made was that the erotic sculptures did not depict gods and goddesses, and that this art is not the general rule. I do not understand how the judge is not able to make thedistinction. This point was repeatedly refuted in this forum. Not only does it appear that nude images are fairly common in ancient Indian temples, almost to the point of being a general rule, but that many such images indeed depict nude Hindu gods and godesses.Cheers, Santosh -
[Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Marshall Mendonsa writes: The only point that I would like to add to Sandeep is that if anyone finds the paintings offensive, they are free to take the matter to the civil courts and have the display of such paintings proscribed and not by hounding him by filing criminal cases galore all over the country and by issuing death threats or by inciting hate. This is not civilised behaviour. I fully agree that in any society there should be civilised behaviour. One of the aspects of this behaviour is to attend to the summons issued by court against a complaint made by a person. The court takes into consideration whether the complaint is frivilous or not, and have often dismissed the compalints. In this case, civil cases were registered. But Hussain has decided that he will not attend to the summons. Only then the issue became heated up, and despite repeated summons, Hussain has not attended the court as is required in a civil society. As far as death threats is concerned, I join everyone in condemning them. Sachin Phadte _ 2000 Placements last year. Are You next ? Find out http://ss1.richmedia.in/recurl.asp?pid=499
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- --- Sachin Phadte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps Santosh can tell how many temples in Goa, for example, have, one, nude sculptures (not necessarily of gods), and, two, out of them how many are there were gods and goddesses are depicted. Personally, I have seen temple friezes with nude images in two Goan temples because I made a deliberate effort to find them on the suggestion of a friend. They are the Mahalsa and Mahalaxmi temples in Mardol and Bandoda, respectively, if I remember correctly. One has to look for these features carefully. I haven't been to most Goan temples, so I have not made a statistical survey. Next time, I will make it a point to pick a random sample of Goan temples to visit, and actually hunt for these images. But as I had pointed out earlier, others have reported that erotic temple art is fairly common in India. Kamat's Potpourri, to which I had referred earlier, says that there are a large number of such temples in Karnataka alone. Here are some pictures you can browse through again to refresh your memory: http://www.kamat.org/picsearch.asp?search=eroticPageNo=1 Moreover, genitalia worship is a time-honored practice in Indian temples. I don't know whether you know this, but the Shiva Linga is a fusion of the male and female genitalia. There is a Shiva Linga on almost every Goan or Indian temple premises. The phallus and the vulva are also worshiped separately, and they are depicted as belonging to a specific god and goddess in temple sculpture. I would also be interested in Santosh's views on the other points made by me. I am not impressed by the emotion behind calls to prosecute Hussain or to ban female dancers in restaurants. Their art is not offensive to me. But even if it was, I would not let my feelings drive me to curtail the harmless exercise of someone else's freedom. Cheers, Santosh
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- When Mr Hussain's work was being discussed on this forum last year, I visited the website in question (I had not heard of Mr Hussain but wanted to see for myself what the fuss was all about), I was quite taken aback with it, having gone to the website with a clear objective mind I was left aghast that this man had indeed painted some of the Goddesses in the nude, but not only nude but attempting to copulate also. I felt outraged as this was not something out of the 2nd Century or beyond but work that was done by him in the 20th century, knowing the sensitivities of those of faith, but of course the Atheists those of non-Hindu faiths rallied round Mr Hussain, as they are entitled to do so, but with rights to do so, come responsibilities as far as I could fathom. I questioned Mr Hussain's right to dipict a God or Goddess in such erotic pose, when the devotees of the Hindu faith do not see their Gods or Goddesses inside or outside their temples, in the nude. The closest I have come across any God or religious icon in the nude was the crucified Christ wearing a loin cloth (or kashti), of course one of Buddha's avatar's stripped to the waist (showing his big belly) I had made a point of asking the good folk of Goanet, especially those not of the Hindu persuasion, but asked if the Catholic majority would protest if the crucified Christ was shown in a pose which may have offended them, but my post was rejected (as offensive). I had no answer to my question, because it could be posed on Goanet forum, so I will not repeat my post of last year, but will say only this, everyone has a right do as they feel is right for them, either a painter or sculptor, singer or poet, but whilst doing so, remember please that its well possible if you cross the line, repercussions may follow, whether immediately or in later years, also note your so-called rights of expression come with responsibilities, for your action. Many millions of people have been killed, maimed, families destroyed, whole towns villages purged razed to the ground in the name of religion, the heaviest casualties of the past being the non-Catholics, therefore I say again, if the crucified Christ posed in the same way, this year, last year or several years ago, would anyone feel their faith has been sullied by the painter, sculptor, poet or singer? Of course you would, so it makes no difference if the paintings of Mr Hussain were done 20 years ago or not, he got away with it then, but people's sensitivities are heightened now, so best keep them out of view. I know if I was of Mr Hussain's religion, and I attempted to even portray his God I would expect to have my life taken by my fellow worshippers, let alone portray the main disciple in a painting. But of course use and abuse as you will, in the name of art, as long as its not in my back yard eh? John Monteiro Sachin Phadte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The objections to the paintings of Hussain have been stated many times, even on this forum. The essential point here is not nude paitings, but paintings of Hindu gods and goddesses in nude. Furthermore, in some of the paintings, Hussain as used his so-called artistic freedom to depict the gods and goddesses in erotic position.
[Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Thank you, Sandeep Heble, for your response. You say that the paintings were done a long time ago but the controversy rose now. This is correct. What you have to realise is that only when the paintings became public knowledge, that the people reacted. What I am given to understand is that when they were published in some books, relating to arts, these paintings became known. However, if your argument of a long time ago is to be taken to the logical conclusion, then a crime committed some years ago, but came to light only now, should go unpunished. I hope you are not saying this. Re your comment on the titles. I have not see the HJS exhibition, so I will accept your contention of mistitling. Again, I hope you are not saying that the figures in the paintings are not those who the objectors say they are. I have not heard anyone disputing that they are Hindu gods and goddesses. And in any case, if they are indeed NOT gods and goddesses, then the argument of Hindu 'tolerance' does not come into picture. Shifting the goal post does not lead to an informed discussion. Sandeep says: The entire smear campaign against Hussain is based on untruths. How so? Are the paintings NOT of Hindu gods and goddesses? Sandeep says: These artists mentioned to me that several Hindu artists were even more liberal when it came to representing Hindu deities and that Hussain was unfortunately being singled out because he was a Muslim. Kindly let me know who else has been 'more liberal' than Hussain? I am hearing this for the first time. Re the allegation that Hussain was targetted because he is a Muslim. I think this is absurd. Sandeep may be aware of the student at Maharaja Sayaji University in Vadodara, whose painting of Hindu dieties were objected to. He is not a Muslim. This issue too was discussed on this forum. (Incidentally, a club in South Mumbai requested Hussain to leave the premises because he was barefooted in an area where it is not permitted. Does this also mean that he was targetted because he is a Muslim? When the allegation of match fixing against Azharuddin first surfaced, he too claimed that he was targetted because he is a Muslim.) Re Sashi Tharoor's comment. This is a classic case of finding a reason to fit with the situation. What Tharoor is essentially saying, then, is that nude and erotic depicition of Hindu gods and goddesses is a rule. Does Sandeep agree with his contention? Sandeep should realise that Tarun Tejpal, who would classify himself as a secularists, did find Hussain's painting that he saw as being 'incredibily erotic'. I am sure Tejpal is no supporter of organisations like HJS or VHP. RE Hussain doing a series on Mahabharat and Ramayan, when he was not known. I am sure Hussain is not the only one who has done so. However, the moot point is whether this gives license to him to undertake erotic depiction of Hindu gods and goddesses. Sandeep said that Hussain did those paintings when he was 'virtually broke'. In that case should he not be grateful that the Hindu gods and goddesses enabled him to acquire immense wealth? Of course, I am making a polemic argument here. Sachin Phadte _ Watch hottest Bollywood videos, clips, movie tailors, star interviews, songs and more on MSN videos. http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-in
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- To my comment (erotic sculptures did not depict gods and goddesses, and that this art is not the general rule), Santosh Helekar responds: This point was repeatedly refuted in this forum. Not only does it appear that nude images are fairly common in ancient Indian temples, almost to the point of being a general rule, but that many such images indeed depict nude Hindu gods and godesses. What Santosh has conveyed is some sculptures of Hindu gods and goddesses in nude. I do not dispute it. But the question of the rule and exception still remains. We can give examples of many things to prove a point. But to apply the point as a generality, one has to say whether these examples are a rule or exception. Perhaps Santosh can tell how many temples in Goa, for example, have, one, nude sculptures (not necessarily of gods), and, two, out of them how many are there were gods and goddesses are depicted. I would also be interested in Santosh's views on the other points made by me. Sachin Phadte _ Timely update on all current affairs, sports, events and all thats in News here on MSN videos. http://video.msn.com/?mkt=en-in
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- To all Goanetters who have taken time trouble to see what damage we do to each other, in the name of religion, the awful way in which we tend to depict each other's faith, albeit in a negative light, such as Mr Hussain. I would like to suggest that Mr Hussain who must have a heart soul of sorts, somewhere in his body, to now consider giving some of that hard cash he earned so easily, part or all of his ill-gotten gains from the absurd way in which he managed to glean cash for his depictions, perhaps to an ashram for the Orphans Elderly who are the great unwanted of India. This would be a way forward would pay for some of the hurt he has done to those who are deemed as the great unwashed, unwanted discarded in the country. I dont know how much he made over the last 30 years or so since he reached the legal retirement age, perhaps a million rupees (Indian or Mauritian ok), will do for now, or any other currency is acceptable, please send it to the Sivananda Saraswati Sevashram in Chennai. They do not discriminate when they have to feed, water, educate, accommodate all those kids the old when they take them in, they also do not discriminate who gives the money either. Even Mr Hussain would be welcome in their house. Barefoot over Agni would be a way to cleanse himself. Anyone wishing to do good by Mr Hussain, who appears to have no conscience nor recognise what he has done, may contribute annonymously, or if you prefer, or he divulges he ID, then you he will receive a thank you letter / email. Full details of the director, ( he is a Padma Shri also), Dr Rajaram whom I have known for a number of years, to this ashram. Email if you like, write to him if you like, donate please, any sum is welcome, a few spare rupees will do just as nicely you will get just as nice a letter and a thank you from him his Sivanada family to The Sivanada Saraswati Sevashram 20 Kambar Street EAST TAMBARAM Chennai 600 059 Tamil Nadu INDIA Visit the website http:/www.buildhope.org With love to all, no matter what religion, faith or persuasion, in the name of humanity, give generously. John Monteiro - Sachin Phadte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You say that the paintings were done a long time ago but the controversy rose now. ... However, if your argument of a long time ago is to be taken to the logical conclusion, then a crime committed some years ago, but came to light only now, should go unpunished. I hope you are not saying this.
[Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Sandeep Heble wrote: Please do not get carried away by these self-proclaimed moral custodians of Hindu faith. All the so called nude paintings of Hussain have been literally picked up by these radical groups from the archives of History in order to increase their own fan base and following. The greatest threat to Hinduism is from fundamental organizations like these. Hussain can truly be called the perfect poster-boy of Hinduism. He should be judged for the entire spectrum of his works done during the course of his lifetime, not by just a few odd paintings which some may find objectionable, either justifiably or unjustifiably. The 90+ year old painter truly deserves to be in his home painting his canvasses. This is the least he deserves if not the Bharat Ratna. Comment: My hearty congratulations to you Sandeep for having put across your points so succinctly. No one could have done it better. I express my appreciation to you Sachin too for having conducted the debate in a healthy and decent manner. The only point that I would like to add to Sandeep is that if anyone finds the paintings offensive, they are free to take the matter to the civil courts and have the display of such paintings proscribed and not by hounding him by filing criminal cases galore all over the country and by issuing death threats or by inciting hate. This is not civilised behaviour. Regards, Marshall Mendonza
Re: [Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- RE the comments of Sandeep Heble. The objections to the paintings of Hussain have been stated many times, even on this forum. The essential point here is not nude paitings, but paintings of Hindu gods and goddesses in nude. Furthermore, in some of the paintings, Hussain as used his so-called artistic freedom to depict the gods and goddesses in erotic position. And Hussain has used his artistic license only in case of Hindu gods and goddesses, but not even on secular subjects, except in case of Hitler. I am told that in a TV programme in September 2004, he explained that the reason he painted Hitler in nude is because he considered Hitler to be a shaitan (devil). When a member in the audience asked if, given the fact that he painted Hindu gods and goddesses in the nude, he considered them to be also shaitan, he gave no answer. (And let us recognise that in Sept 2004, when there was already cases against Hussain in courts in India, he was free to go about in India and even appear on the TV!) Sandeep makes a definitive statement that those who protested against Hussain hadn't even seen the paintings, leave alone understand them. On this forum, the nature of the objectionable Hussain's paintings were discussed, and I had said that they are already circulated around the net. I do not know how Sandeep can make such a definitive statement. I havbe sent him, privately, copies of the objectionable paintings, and I would appreciate if he makes comment on them. Incidentally, an arch secularist, Tarun Tejpal wrote some time ago: Defending artistic freedom is easy, but defending Husain can be tricky. Recently I was on a television panel discussion on the Limits to Artistic Freedom, and most of the show revolved around Husain's painting of Sita and Hanuman, and the ensuing attack on him by the Bajrang Dal. As a die-hard liberal, I was expected to defend Husain, and I did, but with dampened enthusiasm, and that too merely the principle of it, and not as its practiced by Husain. For, a few minutes before the show began I had a chance to see a copy of the painting. I must admit it's an incredibly erotic one - unlike the nude Saraswati which can be seen as ethereal - and Husain must really love trouble to have let it out into the public domain. Whatever their artistic worth, such paintings have simply too much inflamatory potential to be sent out into the world. I'd be curious to know what Husian was thinking when he fired it off. [Outlo ok, June 8, 1998.] So an incredibly erotic painting of Sita and Hanuman is defended on a matter of principle - what exactly that is I do not really understand. The High Court judgement quotes Pablo Picasso as saying art is never chaste. Does this mean that Picvasso thought that it was perfectly legitimate to paint gods and goddesses in an unchaste manner? Perhaps Sandeep can enlighten me. Picasso is also quoted as saying: Where (art) is chaste, it is not art. Hussain is famous for his pictures of horses. I think they would be classified as chaste. In which ase, Picasso would classify them as not art. It is then a wonder how these non-art pictures fetch such high prices! The judgement talks about erotic art in Hindu temples. This point too was also discussed on this forum, and the point made was that the erotic sculptures did not depict gods and goddesses, and that this art is not the general rule. I do not understand how the judge is not able to make the distinction. The judgement says: Today Indian art is confidently coming of age. Yes, in the context of the judgement, does one conclude that this coming of age is restricted to only the erotic art of Hindu gods and goddesses? The judgement says: Sex and obscenity are not always synonymous and it would be wrong to classify sex as essentially obscene or even indecent or immoral. Yes, I agree with the statement. But the operative part is not always. So one has to see the pictures under consideration, and make a judgement. As I said earlier, I have sent the pictures to Sandeep, and I look forward to his comment whether in this case sex and obscenity is synonymous. The judgement also says: Our commitment to freedom of expression demands that it cannot be suppressed unless the situations created by allowing the freedom are pressing and the community interest is endangered. The anticipated danger should not be remote, conjectural or far-fetched. It should have
[Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
--- http://www.GOANET.org --- 5th Annual Konkan Fruit Fest Promenade, D B Bandodkar Road, Panaji, Goa 16-18, May 2008 http://lists.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet-goanet.org/2008-May/073789.html --- Dear Sachin It's great to hear from you on this. I have read a few of your posts earlier on Goanet and while I may or may not agree with you, I really do appreciate your dignified style of writing and deliberating. You would perhaps be surprised to know that the so-called paintings of nude Gods and Goddesses which have been in the eye of the storm for some time now were not drawn by Hussain in the recent past but were drawn several decades ago. The same paintings were displayed in several exhibitions across the Country then and none of them drew the kind of violent responses that we seem to be seeing now. Incidentally, the titles of the paintings which one sees on the Sanatan website and on the Hindu Janajagruti Samiti pamphlets are not the original Hussain captions. These titles were in fact picked up by these two organizations from the book Anti- Hindus authored by Hindu writer Praful Goradia. The original captions were deliberately altered with the sole intention of misleading people and fanning their emotions and sentiments. The whole controversy began in the early 80s when the Sangh Parivar launched their Hindutva movement. The Muslim Hussain thus became the perfect pawn in the game of Hindutva, i.e. a larger game of mobilizing Hindu support to seize power. It is indeed sad that they chose a figure who had been more influenced by Hinduism and its culture than Islam and who had drawn more than 150 canvasses on Ramayan at a time when he was virtually broke, an entire series on the Mahabharat, hundreds of forms of Ganeshas and several other paintings celebrating the Hindu spirit of life. The entire smear campaign against Hussain is based on untruths. For instance, way back in 1976, Hussain drew a few abstract stylized outline sketches of Goddess Saraswati for the O.P. Jindal industrial family. Likewise, another painting titled Sita Rescued was drawn by Hussain in the 70s for Ram Manohar Lohia. Neither of these paintings had distinguishing nude features of any kind, they were abstract representations much in synchrony with the age-old Hindu traditions, certainly by no means obscene or vulgar. However, in a text-book case of the blind men describing the elephant, radical and orthodox Hindu groups chose to see them differently. A sensual Saraswati playing the Veena thus became the Nude Saraswati. A stylized sketch of Goddess Durga sitting on a Tiger was also falsely portrayed by these orthodox groups as Goddess Durga having sexual relations with a tiger. Truly, the High Court was perfectly right in observing that Obscenity was indeed in the eyes of the beholder. Ditto with Perversion. I had the opportunity to interact with a few Hindu artists during an art competition that we had organized during the occasion of Shivaji Jayanti. These artists mentioned to me that several Hindu artists were even more liberal when it came to representing Hindu deities and that Hussain was unfortunately being singled out because he was a Muslim. They too observed that there was absolutely nothing wrong in the paintings and that this was nothing but a political issue. I agree with you that Hussain has not drawn nude paintings on Islamic culture and to answer that I will direct you to what Shashi Tharoor wrote in Times of India: The question of why Hussein doesn't paint Muslim figures in the nude is a red herring. The Islamic tradition is a different one from either the Hindu or the Western; what causes offence in one is different from what causes offence in another. Islam, after all, prohibits any visual depiction of the Prophet, whereas visualizing our gods and goddesses is central to the practice of Hinduism. When the whole controversy broke out, Hussain made it clear that these paintings were drawn with intense love and admiration and that not a single drop in it was drawn out of hate. He also said that if in the process of doing so he had hurt Hindu sentiments, he was willingly apologizing for the same because humanity to him was more important than his paintings. But these groups and their supporters were just not willing to listen. Hussain had committed blasphemy and they wanted nothing but his head. The Hindu Personal Law Board did just that by offering a Rs 51 crore reward for eliminating this icon. Several cases were lodged against him by misguided Hindus and he was virtually hounded out of the Country, forced to live a life in Exile. Please do not get carried away by these self-proclaimed moral custodians
[Goanet] M.F. Hussain- Delhi High Court Observations
M.F. Hussain, contemporary India's foremost artist, was hounded out of the Country and treated like an outcaste. His exhibitions were virtually ransacked and mobbed by fanatical Hindu groups whose supporters hadn't even seen the paintings, leave alone understand them. Make no mistake about it; this was not a case of different interests, different pursuits and different individualities one wee bit. This was a political issue with Hindus unfortunately behaving like sheep, allowing themselves to get carried away by Hindu groups and political parties who were singing the tunes of *high morality* and *righteousness* for their own supper. The judgment is an extensive commentary on Hindu and Indian art and is a must read for all. Although this is a judgment on Hussain's Bharatmata painting and has no connection with his alleged paintings on nude Hindu Gods and Goddesses, there are a lot of relevant observations on Indian and Hindu art in the judgment. The entire judgment is available at the link I posted here earlier but since the judgment is quite large, I am posting the relevant portions here. Some relevant Delhi High Court Observations: Pablo Picasso, a renowned artist said, Art is never chaste. It ought to be forbidden to ignorant innocents, never allowed into contact with those not sufficiently prepared. Yes, art is dangerous. Where it is chaste, it is not art. Art, to every artist, is a vehicle for personal expression. An aesthetic work of art has the vigour to connect to an individual sensory, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. With a 5000-year-old culture, Indian Art has been rich in its tapestry of ancient heritage right from the medieval times to the contemporary art adorned today with each painting having a story to narrate. Ancient Indian art has been never devoid of eroticism where sex worship and graphical representation of the union between man and woman has been a recurring feature. The sculpture on the earliest temples of 'Mithuna' image or the erotic couple in Bhubeneshwar, Konarak and Puri in Orissa (150-1250 AD); Khajuraho in Madhya Pradesh (900-1050 AD); Limbojimata temple at Delmel, Mehsana (10th Century AD); Kupgallu Hill, Bellary, Madras; and Nilkantha temple at Sunak near Baroda to name a few. Today Indian art is confidently coming of age. Every form of stylistic expression in the visual arts, from naturalism to abstract expressionism derives its power from the artist's emotional connection to his perceptual reality. The Nude in contemporary art, a perennial art subject, considered to be the greatest challenges in art has still not lost its charm and focuses on how the human form has been reinterpreted by the emerging and influential artists today. Art and authority have never had a difficult relationship until recently. In fact, art and artists used to be patronized by various kings and the elite class. It is very unfortunate that the works of many artists today who have tried to play around with nudity have come under scrutiny and have had to face the music which has definitely made the artists to think twice before exhibiting their work of art. Therefore, looking at a piece of art from the painters' perspective becomes very important especially in the context of nudes. What needs to be seen is that the work is not sensational for the sake of being so and hence needs to be understood before any objections are raised. The world's greatest paintings, sculptures, songs and dances, India's lustrous heritage, the Konarks and Khajurahos, lofty epics, luscious in patches, may be asphyxiated by law, if prudes and prigs and State moralists prescribe paradigms and prescribe heterodoxies. Sex and obscenity are not always synonymous and it would be wrong to classify sex as essentially obscene or even indecent or immoral. The basic concern should be to prevent the use of sex designed to play a commercial role by making its own appeal. Freedom of speech and expression In S. Rangarajan v. P. Jagjevan Ram and Ors. (1989) 2 SCC 574, while interpreting Article 19(2) this Court borrowed from the American test of clear and present danger and observed: Our commitment to freedom of expression demands that it cannot be suppressed unless the situations created by allowing the freedom are pressing and the community interest is endangered. The anticipated danger should not be remote, conjectural or far-fetched. It should have proximate and direct nexus with the expression. The expression of thought should be intrinsically dangerous to the public interest. [In other words, the expression should be inseparably] like the equivalent of a 'spark in a power keg'. Test of ordinary man The test for judging a work should be that of an ordinary man of common sense and prudence and not an out of the ordinary or hypersensitive man. Though some might feel offended or disgusted at the very inception of seeing the alleged Mother India in nude but that by itself and nothing more in my opinion is not
