Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Neil McGovern]

On Sat, 2019-02-09 at 02:15 +0200, makep...@firemail.cc wrote:
> > open an issue for Gtk by
> > emailing a specific email address on GitLab
> 
> GNOME's instance seem to disallow creating issues by email. GitLab 
> itself, if configured with sub-addressing, generates a private email 
> address for issues when you sign in and visit a repository page:
> 
https://docs.gitlab.com/ce/user/project/issues/create_new_issue.html#new-issue-via-email
> 
> Does Discourse let one email new threads, or only to respond?

(Original mail got stuck in moderation, apologies for the delay)

You can start new threads by email:
https://meta.discourse.org/t/start-a-new-topic-via-email-e-mail/62977

Neil
-- 
Neil McGovern
Executive Director, The GNOME Foundation

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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[makepost]

open an issue for Gtk by
emailing a specific email address on GitLab


GNOME's instance seem to disallow creating issues by email. GitLab 
itself, if configured with sub-addressing, generates a private email 
address for issues when you sign in and visit a repository page:


https://docs.gitlab.com/ce/user/project/issues/create_new_issue.html#new-issue-via-email

Does Discourse let one email new threads, or only to respond?
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Tojnar via gtk-devel-list]

On Pá, úno 8, 2019 at 11:53 PM, Reuben Rissler  
wrote:
Thanks. But it probably isn't possible to open an issue for Gtk by 
emailing a specific email address on GitLab, or am I wrong?


Only in Enterprise Edition Premium: 
https://gitlab.com/help/user/project/service_desk


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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Reuben Rissler]

On 02/08/2019 04:37 PM, makep...@firemail.cc wrote:

So let me get this straight, GitLab has a feature where an ordinary
user can setup his GitLab account to email him every time a new issue
is created?


It's on the repo page, behind the bell icon, to the left of the star. 
Visible after signing in. To be honest, I'd rather hide the stars and 
make this one more noticeable. Same feature as GitHub watch.


Thanks. But it probably isn't possible to open an issue for Gtk by 
emailing a specific email address on GitLab, or am I wrong?

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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[makepost]

So let me get this straight, GitLab has a feature where an ordinary
user can setup his GitLab account to email him every time a new issue
is created?


It's on the repo page, behind the bell icon, to the left of the star. 
Visible after signing in. To be honest, I'd rather hide the stars and 
make this one more noticeable. Same feature as GitHub watch.

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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[sri]

On Fri, 2019-02-08 at 11:07 +, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list
wrote:
> 
> 
> In general, mailman3 + hyperkitty is a somewhat good upgrade on
> mailman2 (even though I still prefer the old archive pages compared
> to hyperkitty; I've been going through those *a lot* for my "History
> of GNOME" project), but it does not compare to other platforms like
> Discourse.
> 

I think we can safely end the chapter of mailman use.  As a person who
manages a number of lists, I find the tedious removal of spam to be
annoying.  The engagement team is following suit as well because it is
much more newcomer friendly to our volunteers.

Thanks for making this happen, Emmanuele - our team are excited to move
too!

Cheers,
sri

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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Reuben Rissler]

On 02/08/2019 12:45 PM, makep...@firemail.cc wrote:



ardour


LMMS moved handling of support requests and conversations from their 
mailing list to GitHub issues and it works. Using GNOME's GitLab as 
the single place for discussions can also be considered an 
alternative. One can respond to issues via email, and email is how I 
get my notifications of the issues and pull requests. It has 
moderation tools and tags, so Emmanuele might prefer it to HyperKitty. 
GitLab works on mobile, though it loads data with AJAX and annoys me 
with sidebars and its button kitchensink that I never use.
So let me get this straight, GitLab has a feature where an ordinary user 
can setup his GitLab account to email him every time a new issue is created?


I have responded to an issue via email that I originally discovered (and 
posted to) on the website, but I haven't figured out how to have new 
issues sent to my inbox.



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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[makepost]

> ardour

LMMS moved handling of support requests and conversations from their mailing 
list to GitHub issues and it works. Using GNOME's GitLab as the single place 
for discussions can also be considered an alternative. One can respond to 
issues via email, and email is how I get my notifications of the issues and 
pull requests. It has moderation tools and tags, so Emmanuele might prefer it 
to HyperKitty. GitLab works on mobile, though it loads data with AJAX and 
annoys me with sidebars and its button kitchensink that I never use.___
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[makepost]

>  - Hyperkitty's UX is confusing, cluttered to the point of being unhelpful

Would benefit from examples of clutter. Opened home page, saw lists. Opened 
list, saw threads. Opened thread, saw replies and a new reply link. And some 
buttons for permalink, rating, archive and stats. Basic features.

If by cluttered you mean excessive borders and backgrounds, it's CSS and I'll 
gladly patch to reduce these if you'd like.

>  - navigating through recent discussions never makes it clear which emails 
> are newer, and the fake threading makes it visually harder to scan

Just click "Show replies by date".

>  - searching is a disaster, with results returned without any sense of what's 
> relevant or not

Good point, though I don't know whether Discourse is better at this, and 
general purpose web indexing tools should work fine with HyperKitty as it 
outputs HTML unlike Discourse.

>  - mobile access is pretty much not supported

Fedora mailing lists have a great responsive version, I have them open on a 
phone right now and their scripts work even on old WebKit. Meanwhile Discourse 
in the next tab loads a blank screen.

>  - it's all just a front to a mailman, instead of being a whole packaged 
> software; this means:
>   - harder to set up and upgrade

Please elaborate, what I see in docs about setup is easier than GitLab and 
other tools GNOME already deploys.

>   - no moderation tools

Yes, lack of moderation tools is a valid issue.

>   - no categories, sub-categories, or tagging to organise email

Why would a list of 100 monthly emails need sub-categories and tags? For 
newcomers that's even more fragmented nesting and thus confusion.

>   - no integration with services or additional plugins

It's email, lots of software can send notifications. Additional plugins and 
integrations are a maintenance burden and thus invalidate your previous points 
about ease of setup and one single package.
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Paul Davis]

On Fri, Feb 8, 2019 at 7:33 AM Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list <
gtk-devel-list@gnome.org> wrote:

>
> As for the subscription: Discourse supports multiple identity
> providers—Google, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Yahoo, and GitHub are all
> supported, and there's a plugin available for GitLab authentication as
> well, so we might be able to automatically authenticate existing GTK
> contributors with an account on gitlab.gnome.org.
>

It took one of ardour's (amazing) devs not much more than several hours of
work to use Discourse's SSO capabilities to integrate with Drupal
authentication, so even if the plugin doesn't work as you want, making
something that does will be simple for someone who understands this stuff.
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list]

On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 12:19, Emmanuele Bassi  wrote:

>
> The main differences are that you’d need a different subscription account
> than the existing one, and that you wouldn’t have the weekly digests, as
> far as I can see.
>

It turns out I was wrong: Discourse has "weekly summaries" as well.

As for the subscription: Discourse supports multiple identity
providers—Google, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Yahoo, and GitHub are all
supported, and there's a plugin available for GitLab authentication as
well, so we might be able to automatically authenticate existing GTK
contributors with an account on gitlab.gnome.org.

Ciao,
 Emmanuele.

-- 
https://www.bassi.io
[@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list]

On Thu, 7 Feb 2019 at 00:54,  wrote:

> > We already looked at Hyperkitty, and found it fairly limited in
> > functionality. Avoiding Hyperkitty is what led us to Discourse in the
> > first place.
> Can you link that discussion please?


It was on IRC and in person discussions, and private emails between various
people.


> I'm interested what newcomers want
> to do such that Hyperkitty doesn't let. Negatives of Discourse: loads
> slower, broken without evergreen CSS and JS, huge blank margins. Fedora
> uses Hyperkitty on its other, non-Silverblue lists.
>

We asked Fedora developers for their experiences, and they weren't overly
impressed with it.

Off the top of my head (and after using Hyperkitty to browse Fedora desktop
and devel mailing lists for the last couple of years):

 - Hyperkitty's UX is confusing, cluttered to the point of being unhelpful
 - navigating through recent discussions never makes it clear which emails
are newer, and the fake threading makes it visually harder to scan
 - searching is a disaster, with results returned without any sense of
what's relevant or not
 - mobile access is pretty much not supported
 - it's all just a front to a mailman, instead of being a whole packaged
software; this means:
  - harder to set up and upgrade
  - no moderation tools
  - no categories, sub-categories, or tagging to organise email
  - no integration with services or additional plugins

In general, mailman3 + hyperkitty is a somewhat good upgrade on mailman2
(even though I still prefer the old archive pages compared to hyperkitty;
I've been going through those *a lot* for my "History of GNOME" project),
but it does not compare to other platforms like Discourse.

Ciao,
 Emmanuele.

-- 
https://www.bassi.io
[@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Tilo Villwock via gtk-app-devel-list]

Am Mittwoch, den 06.02.2019, 12:46 +0100 schrieb Emmanuele Bassi via
gtk-app-devel-list:
> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> gtk-devel-list]
> 
> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other
> core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the
> current
> mailman installation to Discourse:
> 
>   https://discourse.org/
> 
> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> requirements for our sysadmins.
> 
> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around
> development
> with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation
> system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points for
> switching to
> Discourse. The fact that the project is also open source is neatly
> aligned
> with our values.
> 
> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and
> has
> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
> 
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.

I'd very much welcome such a change. Being able to inline screenshots
would greatly improve discussions around certain problems IMHO.

--Tilo

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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Ryan Gonzalez via gtk-app-devel-list]

As a side note, Python has also opened a Discourse instance (in addition to
their Zulip experiment), and the results have pretty much been positive.
I've also been on Fedora's for quite some time, and it's great.

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 5:46 AM Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list <
gtk-devel-l...@gnome.org> wrote:

> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> gtk-devel-list]
>
> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the
> current mailman installation to Discourse:
>
>   https://discourse.org/
>
> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> requirements for our sysadmins.
>
> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around development
> with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation
> system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points for switching to
> Discourse. The fact that the project is also open source is neatly aligned
> with our values.
>
> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
> --
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
> ___
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>


-- 
Ryan (ライアン)
Yoko Shimomura, ryo (supercell/EGOIST), Hiroyuki Sawano >> everyone else
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Niels De Graef via gtk-app-devel-list]

Hi all,

I'm very much in favor! Being able to still use e-mail while also
having a convenient and pretty-looking interface is something I look
*really* forward to.

My only question is: what happens to the old archives? Do we keep them
online as-is, or is there a plan to also migrate them? The former
means of course less effort, but the latter would keep everything
unified in one UI for example.
I'm fine with whatever you choose :-)

Thanks in any case for taking this up, Emmanuele!

Cheers,
nielsdg

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 3:42 PM Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list
 wrote:
>
> More information on Discourse:
>
>   - About: https://www.discourse.org/about
>   - Features: https://www.discourse.org/features
>
> Discourse is a forum software that has multiple ways to access it: web, 
> native apps, and email. It's not a mailing list software with a web frontend.
>
> The interesting (to me) parts are:
>
>  - 2FA instead of Mailman's plaintext password
>  - real moderation tools, that can scale with the community and encourage 
> civility and code of conduct compliant behaviour
>  - anti-spam measures
>  - open source software (kind of a pre-requisite)
>  - good UI for reading and replying to topics
>
> The Fedora (Silverblue) and Ubuntu communities already use Discourse, for 
> instance; the SDL community also does.
>
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
>
>
> On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 12:46, Emmanuele Bassi  wrote:
>>
>> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to 
>> gtk-devel-list]
>>
>> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and other 
>> core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the current 
>> mailman installation to Discourse:
>>
>>   https://discourse.org/
>>
>> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the requirements 
>> for our sysadmins.
>>
>> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around development 
>> with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation system, 
>> and a decent web UI are the major selling points for switching to Discourse. 
>> The fact that the project is also open source is neatly aligned with our 
>> values.
>>
>> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has 
>> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>>
>> Ciao,
>>  Emmanuele.
>> --
>> https://www.bassi.io
>> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
>
>
>
> --
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Paul Davis]

Emmaneule,

at ardour.org, we recently switched from using Drupal forums to Discourse.
The results have been delightful. We managed to get single sign on
integration with our existing site working, which was important for us, but
probably not so much for a GTK Discourse. More notably, once you figure out
how to get the settings right, the integration with email was also a
pleasure. The move has definitely made our forums more active, easier to
manage, nicer to interact with and has also largely solved the spam
problems that we had before, even when we used Mollum. So ... although our
needs and goals were slightly different from yours, I can say that for us,
the move was very successful and we like Discourse very much.

--p


On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 4:46 AM Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-list <
gtk-l...@gnome.org> wrote:

> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> gtk-devel-list]
>
> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the
> current mailman installation to Discourse:
>
>   https://discourse.org/
>
> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> requirements for our sysadmins.
>
> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around development
> with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation
> system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points for switching to
> Discourse. The fact that the project is also open source is neatly aligned
> with our values.
>
> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
> --
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
> ___
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>
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[makepost]

> you would largely only use the web UI to sign up or change your settings.

What about reading the history? I mostly end up on mailing lists web UI by 
following links from web searches and bug trackers.
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[makepost]

> hiding things that previously were obvious and made inaccessible without 
> scripting overhead
> enabled, overabundant whitespace, tiny gray text, short lists where 5X as 
> many would otherwise fit.

All these points that you make apply to Discourse. Its client side seems 
entirely JS and doesn't work on an older phone and often won't load in 
WebKit-GTK. I'm able to read Fedora mailing lists on both of these and even in 
a text browser, so it means at least this drawback HyperKitty doesn't have.

> I avoid it as much as possible, trying to get answers from 
> bugzilla.redhat.com or IRC or the
> archlinux wiki whenever possible instead.

Well one should search wikis and bugzilla before writing to a mailing list so 
they aren't really alternatives. IRC is, yes.
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Ryan Gonzalez via gtk-devel-list]

As has been mentioned, Discourse allows you to receive and via email, you
would largely only use the web UI to sign up or change your settings.

--
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Yoko Shimomura, ryo (supercell/EGOIST), Hiroyuki Sawano >> everyone else
https://refi64.com/

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019, 11:25 PM Felix Miata via gtk-devel-list <
gtk-devel-list@gnome.org> wrote:

> Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list composed on 2019-02-06 12:46 (UTC+0100):
>
> > Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> > opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>
> As happened when various mozilla dev mailing lists moved to discourse, I
> ceased having anything to
> do with those subjects. The same will happen if gtk mailing lists move to
> discourse. Web sites and
> all their CSS and JS interference and bandwidth overhead are no substitute
> for plain legible text
> email lists.
> --
> Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.
>
>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
>
> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Felix Miata via gtk-devel-list]

Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list composed on 2019-02-06 12:46 (UTC+0100):

> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?

As happened when various mozilla dev mailing lists moved to discourse, I ceased 
having anything to
do with those subjects. The same will happen if gtk mailing lists move to 
discourse. Web sites and
all their CSS and JS interference and bandwidth overhead are no substitute for 
plain legible text
email lists.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Felix Miata via gtk-devel-list]

makep...@firemail.cc composed on 2019-02-07 02:54 (UTC+0200):

>> We already looked at Hyperkitty, and found it fairly limited in
>> functionality. Avoiding Hyperkitty is what led us to Discourse in the
>> first place.

> Can you link that discussion please? I'm interested what newcomers want 
> to do such that Hyperkitty doesn't let. Negatives of Discourse: loads 
> slower, broken without evergreen CSS and JS, huge blank margins. Fedora 
> uses Hyperkitty on its other, non-Silverblue lists.

Hyperkitty made Fedora mailing lists a displeasure, like most of the rest of 
the web, scripts
hiding things that previously were obvious and made inaccessible without 
scripting overhead
enabled, overabundant whitespace, tiny gray text, short lists where 5X as many 
would otherwise fit.
I avoid it as much as possible, trying to get answers from bugzilla.redhat.com 
or IRC or the
archlinux wiki whenever possible instead.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Ryan Gonzalez via gtk-devel-list]

Hmm, unfortunately it was over some scattered IRC messages, I can try and
find them in the logs if you like.

--
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Yoko Shimomura, ryo (supercell/EGOIST), Hiroyuki Sawano >> everyone else
https://refi64.com/

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019, 8:38 PM  wrote:

> > I know someone who set up HyperKitty, it was a nightmare
>
> How so? Can you link their blog post? I'm not its user or developer, I
> want to better understand the software choice.
>
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Michael Gratton]

On Wed, 6 Feb, 2019 at 10:46 PM, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-list 
 wrote:
As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and 
other core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from 
the current mailman installation to Discourse:


  

Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the 
requirements for our sysadmins.


Sounds great! Can we get this for other GNOME projects as well? I'd 
like to use it for Geary.


//Mike

--
⊨ Michael Gratton, Percept Wrangler.
⚙ 


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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[makepost]

I know someone who set up HyperKitty, it was a nightmare


How so? Can you link their blog post? I'm not its user or developer, I 
want to better understand the software choice.

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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Ryan Gonzalez via gtk-devel-list]

I know someone who set up HyperKitty, it was a nightmare and still is a
nightmare.

--
Ryan (ライアン)
Yoko Shimomura, ryo (supercell/EGOIST), Hiroyuki Sawano >> everyone else
https://refi64.com/

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019, 6:54 PM  wrote:

> > We already looked at Hyperkitty, and found it fairly limited in
> > functionality. Avoiding Hyperkitty is what led us to Discourse in the
> > first place.
> Can you link that discussion please? I'm interested what newcomers want
> to do such that Hyperkitty doesn't let. Negatives of Discourse: loads
> slower, broken without evergreen CSS and JS, huge blank margins. Fedora
> uses Hyperkitty on its other, non-Silverblue lists.
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[David C. Rankin]

On 02/06/2019 05:46 AM, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-app-devel-list wrote:
> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
> 
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.

Improvements are always welcome, but I've seen a number of moves away from the
traditional mailing list, or fragmentation of a list into sub-topics fail
miserably. (it fragments the community as well)

I'm not sure I see the logic on how a mailing list change could make GTK more
friendly to newcomers. You have a good thing going here that has stood the
test of time. I would at least maintain the mailing list as is until you have
some confirmation that any change actually accomplishes its stated goals.

I for one see no benefit in discourse.

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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[makepost]

We already looked at Hyperkitty, and found it fairly limited in
functionality. Avoiding Hyperkitty is what led us to Discourse in the
first place.
Can you link that discussion please? I'm interested what newcomers want 
to do such that Hyperkitty doesn't let. Negatives of Discourse: loads 
slower, broken without evergreen CSS and JS, huge blank margins. Fedora 
uses Hyperkitty on its other, non-Silverblue lists.

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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[sri]

On Wed, 2019-02-06 at 12:46 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list
wrote:
> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> gtk-devel-list]
> 
> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from
> the current mailman installation to Discourse:

I'm 100% onboard.  I'd like to align this with the rest of the GNOME
mailing list starting with engagement list.  If it is going to be on
the GNOME infrastructure, if there is some opt-in for the other mailing
list that will just help popularize this for the rest of us on the
GNOME infrastructure.

Cheers,
sri

> 
>   https://discourse.org/
> 
> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> requirements for our sysadmins.
> 
> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around
> development with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better
> moderation system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points
> for switching to Discourse. The fact that the project is also open
> source is neatly aligned with our values.
> 
> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and
> has opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
> 
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
> -- 
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Ryan Gonzalez via gtk-devel-list]

As a side note, Python has also opened a Discourse instance (in addition to
their Zulip experiment), and the results have pretty much been positive.
I've also been on Fedora's for quite some time, and it's great.

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 5:46 AM Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list <
gtk-devel-list@gnome.org> wrote:

> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> gtk-devel-list]
>
> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the
> current mailman installation to Discourse:
>
>   https://discourse.org/
>
> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> requirements for our sysadmins.
>
> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around development
> with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation
> system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points for switching to
> Discourse. The fact that the project is also open source is neatly aligned
> with our values.
>
> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
> --
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
> ___
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>


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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Niels De Graef via gtk-devel-list]

Hi all,

I'm very much in favor! Being able to still use e-mail while also
having a convenient and pretty-looking interface is something I look
*really* forward to.

My only question is: what happens to the old archives? Do we keep them
online as-is, or is there a plan to also migrate them? The former
means of course less effort, but the latter would keep everything
unified in one UI for example.
I'm fine with whatever you choose :-)

Thanks in any case for taking this up, Emmanuele!

Cheers,
nielsdg

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 3:42 PM Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list
 wrote:
>
> More information on Discourse:
>
>   - About: https://www.discourse.org/about
>   - Features: https://www.discourse.org/features
>
> Discourse is a forum software that has multiple ways to access it: web, 
> native apps, and email. It's not a mailing list software with a web frontend.
>
> The interesting (to me) parts are:
>
>  - 2FA instead of Mailman's plaintext password
>  - real moderation tools, that can scale with the community and encourage 
> civility and code of conduct compliant behaviour
>  - anti-spam measures
>  - open source software (kind of a pre-requisite)
>  - good UI for reading and replying to topics
>
> The Fedora (Silverblue) and Ubuntu communities already use Discourse, for 
> instance; the SDL community also does.
>
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
>
>
> On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 12:46, Emmanuele Bassi  wrote:
>>
>> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to 
>> gtk-devel-list]
>>
>> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and other 
>> core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the current 
>> mailman installation to Discourse:
>>
>>   https://discourse.org/
>>
>> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the requirements 
>> for our sysadmins.
>>
>> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around development 
>> with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation system, 
>> and a decent web UI are the major selling points for switching to Discourse. 
>> The fact that the project is also open source is neatly aligned with our 
>> values.
>>
>> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has 
>> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>>
>> Ciao,
>>  Emmanuele.
>> --
>> https://www.bassi.io
>> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
>
>
>
> --
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-app-devel-list]

More information on Discourse:

  - About: https://www.discourse.org/about
  - Features: https://www.discourse.org/features

Discourse is a forum software that has multiple ways to access it: web,
native apps, and email. It's not a mailing list software with a web
frontend.

The interesting (to me) parts are:

 - 2FA instead of Mailman's plaintext password
 - real moderation tools, that can scale with the community and encourage
civility and code of conduct compliant behaviour
 - anti-spam measures
 - open source software (kind of a pre-requisite)
 - good UI for reading and replying to topics

The Fedora (Silverblue) and Ubuntu communities already use Discourse, for
instance; the SDL community also does.

Ciao,
 Emmanuele.


On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 12:46, Emmanuele Bassi  wrote:

> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> gtk-devel-list]
>
> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the
> current mailman installation to Discourse:
>
>   https://discourse.org/
>
> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> requirements for our sysadmins.
>
> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around development
> with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation
> system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points for switching to
> Discourse. The fact that the project is also open source is neatly aligned
> with our values.
>
> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
> --
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
>


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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list]

More information on Discourse:

  - About: https://www.discourse.org/about
  - Features: https://www.discourse.org/features

Discourse is a forum software that has multiple ways to access it: web,
native apps, and email. It's not a mailing list software with a web
frontend.

The interesting (to me) parts are:

 - 2FA instead of Mailman's plaintext password
 - real moderation tools, that can scale with the community and encourage
civility and code of conduct compliant behaviour
 - anti-spam measures
 - open source software (kind of a pre-requisite)
 - good UI for reading and replying to topics

The Fedora (Silverblue) and Ubuntu communities already use Discourse, for
instance; the SDL community also does.

Ciao,
 Emmanuele.


On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 12:46, Emmanuele Bassi  wrote:

> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> gtk-devel-list]
>
> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the
> current mailman installation to Discourse:
>
>   https://discourse.org/
>
> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> requirements for our sysadmins.
>
> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around development
> with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation
> system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points for switching to
> Discourse. The fact that the project is also open source is neatly aligned
> with our values.
>
> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
> --
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
>


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[@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Paul Davis]

Emmaneule,

at ardour.org, we recently switched from using Drupal forums to Discourse.
The results have been delightful. We managed to get single sign on
integration with our existing site working, which was important for us, but
probably not so much for a GTK Discourse. More notably, once you figure out
how to get the settings right, the integration with email was also a
pleasure. The move has definitely made our forums more active, easier to
manage, nicer to interact with and has also largely solved the spam
problems that we had before, even when we used Mollum. So ... although our
needs and goals were slightly different from yours, I can say that for us,
the move was very successful and we like Discourse very much.

--p


On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 4:46 AM Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-list <
gtk-l...@gnome.org> wrote:

> [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> gtk-devel-list]
>
> As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the
> current mailman installation to Discourse:
>
>   https://discourse.org/
>
> Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> requirements for our sysadmins.
>
> The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around development
> with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better moderation
> system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points for switching to
> Discourse. The fact that the project is also open source is neatly aligned
> with our values.
>
> Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>
> Ciao,
>  Emmanuele.
> --
> https://www.bassi.io
> [@] ebassi [@gmail.com]
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list]

On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 15:11, Charles Lindsey  wrote:

>
>
> On 06/02/2019 11:46, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list wrote:
> > [Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
> > gtk-devel-list]
> >
> > As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and
> other
> > core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the
> current
> > mailman installation to Discourse:
> >
> >https://discourse.org/
> >
> > Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
> > requirements for our sysadmins.
>
> > Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
> > opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
>
> Does that mean I have to log in to Discourse every day just to check
> whether
> some new message has arrived? If so, then no thank you.


No, you could still get email notifications for messages, and you could
still send email replies; that's supported on Discourse, as you could
easily check on their website.


> This is a low volume
> list, often with two or more weeks between messages.
>

Yes, the *gtk-devel-list* mailing list is low volume, compared to
gtk-app-devel-list and gtk-list. Did you ever wonder why it is? Mostly
because mailing lists are kind of terrible. The idea behind switching to
Discourse is to improve the communication channels available to GTK
developers and users to something more useful than email.

Ciao,
 Emmanuele.

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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Charles Lindsey]

On 06/02/2019 11:46, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list wrote:

[Cross-posted to various relevant mailing lists; please, reply to
gtk-devel-list]

As part of an attempt at making GTK more friendly to newcomers, I and other
core developers were thinking of moving the mailing lists from the current
mailman installation to Discourse:

   https://discourse.org/

Possibly still hosted on GNOME infrastructure, depending on the
requirements for our sysadmins.



Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and has
opinions about it that they want to share with the community?


Does that mean I have to log in to Discourse every day just to check whether 
some new message has arrived? If so, then no thank you. This is a low volume 
list, often with two or more weeks between messages.


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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list]

Hi;

On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 13:10, Reuben Rissler  wrote:

>
> To introduce myself, I only am using Gtk for 3 years, but really like
> the infrastructure / people / open source surrounding Gtk. I am
> sometimes seen as 'theGtknerd'.
>
>
> On 02/06/2019 06:46 AM, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list wrote:
> >
> > The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around
> > development with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better
> > moderation system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points
> > for switching to Discourse. The fact that the project is also open
> > source is neatly aligned with our values.
> Let me ask a poignant question, was moderation ever a problem with
> mailing lists?


As the person that moderates two out of the three GTK mailing lists, yes:
it’s somewhat annoying the amount of spam going on every day. Not terrible,
but it’d be nice not to have to deal with it. Additionally, Discourse would
allow us to deal with code of conduct violations in a much better way than
mailman currently lets us.



> >
> > Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and
> > has opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
> I have a computer that is email only for work (no web browser for
> several personal reasons). I could no longer be a part of the Gtk
> responders as far as I can see.


That’s not accurate: Discourse also works with email, so you’d receive
email messages and you’d be able to reply to email messages.

The main differences are that you’d need a different subscription account
than the existing one, and that you wouldn’t have the weekly digests, as
far as I can see.

Ciao,
 Emmanuele.
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Re: Moving from mailing lists to Discourse

[Reuben Rissler]

To introduce myself, I only am using Gtk for 3 years, but really like 
the infrastructure / people / open source surrounding Gtk. I am 
sometimes seen as 'theGtknerd'.



On 02/06/2019 06:46 AM, Emmanuele Bassi via gtk-devel-list wrote:


The GTK project would have various sub-topics, mostly around 
development with and of GTK. Having a better archive search, a better 
moderation system, and a decent web UI are the major selling points 
for switching to Discourse. The fact that the project is also open 
source is neatly aligned with our values.
Let me ask a poignant question, was moderation ever a problem with 
mailing lists?


Are there any objections? Did somebody already try out Discourse and 
has opinions about it that they want to share with the community?
I have a computer that is email only for work (no web browser for 
several personal reasons). I could no longer be a part of the Gtk 
responders as far as I can see. Now, I am not objecting, I am just 
stating one scenario to consider before switching.


Ciao,
 Emmanuele.
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