[h-cost] Chiming in...Changing Subject Header
Can we please change the email topic/subject header of the debate emails to something else. When these debates start, a lot of people quit reading or create a message rule to delete the messages with that specific header. Over the years some people quit h-costume because of heated debates. So please leave the questionnaire title/header for just people answering the questions. I started the original questionnaire message as a fun way for us to get to know one another and something lurkers would feel comfortable answering. I have enjoyed ready people's responses to the questions. Some people are new to costuming could use the answers as what would interest them or what is available in the marketplace. People answers and humor have given me a good giggle. Personally, I have enjoyed reading the memories of their favorite bargains and memories of their sewing machines. H-costume is an email list that covers historic costuming into the 1950s. So all are welcome...beginners to scholars! We all began somewhere. This is a wonderful place to learn. Fashion history is what made us what we are today. I like all areas...historic, fantasy, and present day fashion. I collect depending what my area of interest is at the time. Over the years, I went through a year of purchasing antique etiquette books and fashion dictionaries, got stuck in the 1920s fashion magazines for a couple of years, bustle era for several years, medieval for a while, Elizabethan, Regency, etc. I float fashion around like a butterfly, landing on a time period and find out that I like it. I love the history of the fashion industry, not just the styles of periods but the businesses and trades, people who influenced it, etc. I physically can not sit behind a sewing machine or hand-stitching for 24 hours at a time like I did in my youth. But I love to look every stitch in a dress. That is how I can come up with 30 photos of one dress or 7 views of one hat. I wish I could afford to purchase original text or images from pre-19th Century. They are out of my pocketbook range. People ask me frequently! what fashion time period is my favorite. I answer, That is like asking me which is my favorite child. I love them all for different reasons. I deal with a wide variety of groups of study and interests. This past weekend, I visited vintage car shows (some owners like antique clothing to go with their cars), and a wedding of two different cultures. I am always watching fashion because you never know what you will see...like the 30ish year old man who drove up next to us. He was driving a vintage Harley and wearing kaki pants, Polo shirt, penny-loafers, and designer sunglasses. An interesting fashion statement! Since two of my college degrees heavily focus on fashion marketing and the topic is being discussed, here are some of my findings. ---Currently published historic fashion books that sell the most are 20th Century ones, main focus 1940s-1970s. Women's fashions books sell more than menswear and childrenswear. ---Hot topics in current fashion publications, books, and magazines are past Hollywood fashions icons, hairstyles, celebrities, and designers. The majority of college to thirty-something aged females state that their style icons in history are Audrey Hepburn and Jackie Kennedy. Look at today's fashion and you can see these icons' influences...especially sunglasses, other accessories, and hairstyles. Cary Grant's style is what men generally like. ---In the U.S., the largest re-enactment group is the American Civil War. ---Quilters are the largest home sewing market. ---Resort-wear is the largest market in present day fashion. Resort-wear and Halloween have higher grossing clothing selling seasons than the back-to-school season. A good portion of the resort-wear are influenced after 1950-1970s fashions. Hawaiian print shirts were very hot for last summer and this summer in menswear age 45 and older. Go to any concert for a 1970s band and you will see a large variety of these shirts. Present trend for women's resort-wear is halter tops from the 1940s-70s for all aged women and teenaged girls. ---I have a lot more but am tired and heading to bed. As for embroidery machines, visit quilting shows. There you will find from the cheapest to the industrial machines and most dealers will let you experiment with them. Good night! Penny Ladnier, Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com www.costumelibrary.com www.costumeclassroom.com www.costumeslideshows.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Where is this from again?
You´re welcome. The picture is taken from the British Museum MS. No. D. IX. (late fifteenth century). There´s also The Depositon from the Cross by Gerard David (1460-1523) in the National Gallery, London, which has similar cut armholes but no seam at the waist. At 01:50 28.04.2008, you wrote: Thank you. Can you tell me which painting it comes from? I don't have the book Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 23:58:32 +0200 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Where is this from again? It´s in Medieval Costume in England and France by Mary G. Houston. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] embroidery machines, was: How Many Costume Books...
My husband bought me an embroidery machine last year and I love it. It is a Janome E350 and is very user friendly. It uses their cards but also uses a computer jump drive. Designs can be downloaded from your computer to the drive and plugged directly into the machine. The other thing that I like about it is that it is a stand alone embroidery machine and as I have several sewing machines (Pfaff Creative 1473 which is over 20 years old, a 15 year old Necchi, several simplicity and singer machines, a serger and a singer industrial machine) I did not another sewing machine. Shop around before you invest that kind of money. I found that a number of sewing centers will let you try their machines in their store and then there are the large manufacturers that will demonstrate but not let you touch. Anyway, good hunting. Kenet --- Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My Viking/Husqvarna is at least 10 years old and doesn't accept embroidery software or any kind of disks, so I would need a new machine of some sort for embroidery. I am aware that people did free-machine embroidery even with straight stitch machines, I just want to get fancier than that. Frankly, I want a new techno-toy. Fran Zuzana Kraemerova wrote: You don't need a specific embroidery sewing machine to create a custom embroidery pattern. You just need to have the right software, which is usually quite expensive (but not so much compared to the embroidery machine itself) and it takes a LOT of time to make your desired pattern. There are some digitizing programs that somehow transfer a graphic to an embroidery file, but since I don't own it I don't really know how it works. You only have to know what file types your machine can read and save your graphic in that format. Be sure to check all this before purchasing the embroidery machine and software. Zuzana P.S.: I use Embird, it's affordable and does a good job, they also have some digitizing studio plug-in, but I haven't used it. It might, however, happen that this program will be too simple for you. I'm going to buy an embroidery machine, though, when we move to a bigger house and have room for one. I want one that will do big motifs and where I am not using canned patterns, but where I can create my own with an embroidery graphics program, one that interfaces with my PC. I'd like to scan in antique patterns from magazines and apply stitches to them with a graphics program. I understand that the ordinary graphics programs I use, which these days are mostly Corel PhotoPaint and Corel Draw, don't apply stitches to embroidery patterns. Corel has a special program for that which I have not really looked into, but I'm biased in its favor anyway because it's Corel's. I have not looked into the hardware all that much yet because buying a sewing or embroidery machine these days is partly buying a computer; and with a computer both the features and the prices change so rapidly, that it doesn't pay to research too far in advance. I'm open to suggestions though. I could either get an embroidery sewing machine--if it does big motifs and allows me to create patterns--and sell my current Husqvarna, or get a dedicated embroidery machine. - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Where is this from again?
Hanna Zickermann wrote: You´re welcome. The picture is taken from the British Museum MS. No. D. IX. (late fifteenth century). That's what Houston says, but that's not a recognizable MS shelfmark for the British Museum. As far as I know, all manuscripts there have a collection name as part of the shelfmark (Harley, Royal, Cotton and its many subsets, etc.). Plus Houston doesn't give a folio number, so you might as well whistle as find that thing. I've never seen it ... and I've looked, having been interested in her supposed archway armhole for many years. (Frankly, I don't think that straight sleeve cap will work in most fabrics, maybe none at all, without pinching deeply in front and back of the shoulder joint.) I do know it's not London, British Library Royal 1 D. ix, which is Anglo-Saxon. So is MS Cotton Junius D. ix, I believe. Could be MS Royal 18 D. ix, which is an illuminated Bible of Edward IV, from 1479 Bruges,, but I've only seen a page or two from it, not enough to guess if the style matches up with Houston's drawing. There's also MS Nero D. ix., the Romance of Sir Jehan de Santre, 15th c., which looks promising though I've seen only one image from it. You can find Houston's text here: http://books.google.com/books?id=Z430bgXpeUgC Go to Preview this Book and look at p. 140 for the quotation, 141 for the pattern diagram, and 142 for her redrawing of the picture. There´s also The Depositon from the Cross by Gerard David (1460-1523) in the National Gallery, London, which has similar cut armholes but no seam at the waist. That's also what Houston says. Oddly, out of a huge pile of books on Flemish art and loads of images of David's, I have only one image of this one, and it's not clear enough to show the seams. Ditton the several online versions. I presume the seams in question are on the lady in the light blue dress at the lower left. I surely must have seen the picture in person, but I don't have a slide of it, and I frankly don't remember the seams ... and you'd think I would have. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] invitation
Good afternoon compadres! I have been taking care of my Mom, so I have been just reading and not engaging in the conversations. Today I am passing on news of my antique sale. I have to get rid of most all of my precious collections due to the amount of time it takes to care for an Alzheimer patient. It's been 3 long years. This is meant for my Washington area CSA's. I hope you will think about coming to our lovely historic town of Frederick Md. Just a small smattering of historical treats: Barbara Frietchie Frances Scott Key Supreme Court Justice Roger Brooke Taney Hessian Barracks Catoctin Furnace (both CW Indep.) Historical Society CW Medical Museum Rosehill Manor (Thomas Johnson, pres of CC Gov.) Schifferstat- German architectural home of 1700's New -World renown trump l'oil painted bridge plus wall murals Sign up for a tour at the tourism building And for those of you too far to visit, take a look at my website (victorianmillinery.com) and order anything 30% off until the day of the sale. I have my huge antique hat block(let me know ahead of time if you are interested) Hat collection of Ruth Norcross (including pictures of her wearing these hats. (let me know about this also) Japanese clothing of hers also. (Most of her things were given to the Textile Museum ) Frederick is 1 hour from DC, 1hr. from Baltimore, 45 min. to Annapolis, 30 min. to Gettysburg. I guarantee great prices! Frederick Antique Show and Sale (May 17-18) The Great Frederick Fairgrounds. Save yourself a drive to the Washington area for your antiques! Frederick now has its own antique show. One location for all your favorite vendors. Special collection of hat blocks and hats. For more information call 301-694-8950 or [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sat. 10-6 Sun. 10-5 indoor facility ,free parking Thank you for allowing me to share this with you. I know it is usually frowned upon, But I would sure want to know if one of you were showing off your wares, lecturing somewhere, or have authored a book. Sue Shatto Victorian MIllinery ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] embroidery machines, was: How Many Costume Books...
What kind do you have and what do you like about it? Fran I have a Brother PE750D. (got the D version so I can make Goofy stuff for my collector husband) I like it because it is fairly easy to use, it stitches beautifully, it has a 5x7 embroidery field (4x4 field is just too limiting) . I've embroidered dense designs on towels, beautiful airy free-standing lace, and quilt blocks, and it handles whatever I throw at it. Reasonable price helps too. Right now I've got about $1000 into, for hardware and software, and if I sat down and diligently worked on learning to digitize my own designs, I could quite feasibly never have to buy anything else other than thread and stabilizer. Of course, now I am drooling over the professional level machines:-) Dianne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Where is this from again?
At 13:33 28/04/2008, you wrote: Hanna Zickermann wrote: You´re welcome. The picture is taken from the British Museum MS. No. D. IX. (late fifteenth century). That's what Houston says, but that's not a recognizable MS shelfmark for the British Museum. As far as I know, all manuscripts there have a collection name as part of the shelfmark (Harley, Royal, Cotton and its many subsets, etc.). Plus Houston doesn't give a folio number, so you might as well whistle as find that thing. I've never seen it ... and I've looked, having been interested in her supposed archway armhole for many years. (Frankly, I don't think that straight sleeve cap will work in most fabrics, maybe none at all, without pinching deeply in front and back of the shoulder joint.) I do know it's not London, British Library Royal 1 D. ix, which is Anglo-Saxon. So is MS Cotton Junius D. ix, I believe. Could be MS Royal 18 D. ix, which is an illuminated Bible of Edward IV, from 1479 Bruges,, but I've only seen a page or two from it, not enough to guess if the style matches up with Houston's drawing. There's also MS Nero D. ix., the Romance of Sir Jehan de Santre, 15th c., which looks promising though I've seen only one image from it. You can find Houston's text here: http://books.google.com/books?id=Z430bgXpeUgC Go to Preview this Book and look at p. 140 for the quotation, 141 for the pattern diagram, and 142 for her redrawing of the picture. There´s also The Depositon from the Cross by Gerard David (1460-1523) in the National Gallery, London, which has similar cut armholes but no seam at the waist. That's also what Houston says. Oddly, out of a huge pile of books on Flemish art and loads of images of David's, I have only one image of this one, and it's not clear enough to show the seams. Ditton the several online versions. I presume the seams in question are on the lady in the light blue dress at the lower left. I surely must have seen the picture in person, but I don't have a slide of it, and I frankly don't remember the seams ... and you'd think I would have. --Robin I will be going to an exhibition at the National Gallery in a couple of weeks, so I'll see what I can find in the appropriate gallery. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Where is this from again?
Suzi Clarke wrote: I will be going to an exhibition at the National Gallery in a couple of weeks, so I'll see what I can find in the appropriate gallery. That would be cool. Thanks. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Google book search - WAS: Where is this from again?
I can't get this to work for me. (I was glad you were even able to find the place to do the search - I thought I was losing my marbles.) I keep getting Page 141 You have reached your viewing limit for this book. I am going to try from another computer in the house...then maybe over to my neighbors. Sg You can find Houston's text here: http://books.google.com/books?id=Z430bgXpeUgC Go to Preview this Book and look at p. 140 for the quotation, 141 for the pattern diagram, and 142 for her redrawing of the picture. There´s also The Depositon from the Cross by Gerard David (1460-1523) in the National Gallery, London, which has similar cut armholes but no seam at the waist. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chiming in...Changing Subject Header
Thank you Penny for bringing this up! Drives me Koo KooI stop reading after awhile because the original subject is lost. Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Where is this from again?
I can't give you any examples from the 15th century, but there are some images of this square-bottomed armscye from the 16th century, especially in Bruegel: http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/images/back.jpg http://www.dia.org/the_collection/overview/viewobject.asp? objectid=35573 (the lady in the foreground on the left in grey--zoom in as much as possible, and you can barely see the horizontal seams) If anyone with an interest in the 16th century has a chance to see this painting in person, do so. It's amazing. How the sleeve is cut is hard to say, as I've never tried it. I'd guess that it does have corners but isn't actually rectangular at the top, because if it was cut that way and as tight-fitting as these images, it would be extremely awkward and wouldn't sit right. But it was done somehow, at least in the 16th--possibly a survival from the 15th? Melanie Schuessler ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] books , sewing and pattern advice
Kathleen Gillies wrote: Hi, I think I posted before. I sew regular clothing and stuff and was approached by some new friends to make them some garb for their pirate act/ren fair jobs My question, if you could use 3 books for this (these) eras, which would you buy? The ones I have in my cart are Jane Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620, as well as her 1660-1860, Janet Arnold is wonderful, but limited. These books only cover selected women's outer garments. The Tudor Tailor by Ninya Mikhaila, Another wonderful book, but with more depth, it covers men and women from the skin out. However, it is only for the Tudor period. It is not Renaissance, and it is not pirate. and Costume Close Up: Clothing Construction and Pattern, 1750-1790 - Linda Baumgarten. Again, a very good book, with a variety of patterns for men and women, from the skin out. Again, neither renaissance or pirate era. Susan Khalje's Bridal Coutoure book. Not familiar with this title, but if you are looking to improve your 'quick and dirty' sewing then a couture manual is a good place to start. I have purchased a package of Margo's patterns which have some wonderful guides in them. I plan on working with them today. These are very popular patterns and can produce some spectacular results, even from beginner sewers. They would be good for renaissance festival wear, and basics like skirts, shirts and shifts can carry over into pirate. There really is no good costume pattern book for the Golden Age of Piracy period, 1680-1720. You'll find a few pieces in the 2nd Arnold book, but it's not what people think of when you say 'pirate costume'. You might want to look up Norah Waugh's _Cut of Men's Clothing_, and the accompanying book for women. There are scale diagrams of clothing from the 1680-1720 period, and you can put together a reasonable outfit from what is available there if you can size them up, fit them to your customers, and work without instructions. I also recommend the Gentlemen of Adventure website for an introduction into what real pirates wore and how they acquired their clothing. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] books , sewing and pattern advice
There really is no good costume pattern book for the Golden Age of Piracy period, 1680-1720. Try Reconstructing History www.reconstructinghistory.com . ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Google book search - WAS: Where is this from again?
Saragrace Knauf wrote: I can't get this to work for me. (I was glad you were even able to find the place to do the search - I thought I was losing my marbles.) I keep getting Page 141 You have reached your viewing limit for this book. I am going to try from another computer in the house...then maybe over to my neighbors. When you do, don't go page by page! You really will run out of views. Use the scroll bar on the right to slide right down to the page you want without loading the others -- or (I think this works) type the desired page number in the box just above. -- Robin Netherton Editor at Large [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (314) 439-1222 // fax: (314) 439-1666 Life is just a bowl of queries. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Vintage patterns and clothing, cigarette smoke
Hi, all, I am helping my 82-year-old parents clear out their house in preparation for moving to something more manageable. My mom used to sew, and I am finding boxes and boxes of patterns from the 60s and 70s -- Simplicity, Butterick, McCall's, Vogue. Likewise, there are four double closets full of, um, typical suburban clothes and shoes, mostly from the 70s. My question is whether there is a market for them, given that they have been kept for 40 years in a house with at least two and sometimes four cigarette smokers. Everything in the house has a strong cigarette smoke smell; many things are brown with what I guess is deposited tar. (Veimru: Yuck.) So before I tell my dad it should all go in a dumpster, I just wanted to check whether there was any point in trying to find a buyer for them. Likewise, though off-topic (because they are not costume books; apparently I developed that obsession on my own) are the books in the house rendered worthless by the smoke and tar? I am also hoping for some suggestions about how to get the smell out of the clothes, patterns, or books that I might want to save. Thanks for any thoughts you might share. Lauren [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] books, sewing and pattern advice re Pirates
At 16:23 28/04/2008, you wrote: Kathleen Gillies wrote: Hi, I think I posted before. I sew regular clothing and stuff and was approached by some new friends to make them some garb for their pirate act/ren fair jobs My question, if you could use 3 books for this (these) eras, which would you buy? The ones I have in my cart are Jane Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620, as well as her 1660-1860, Janet Arnold is wonderful, but limited. These books only cover selected women's outer garments. The Tudor Tailor by Ninya Mikhaila, Another wonderful book, but with more depth, it covers men and women from the skin out. However, it is only for the Tudor period. It is not Renaissance, and it is not pirate. and Costume Close Up: Clothing Construction and Pattern, 1750-1790 - Linda Baumgarten. Again, a very good book, with a variety of patterns for men and women, from the skin out. Again, neither renaissance or pirate era. Susan Khalje's Bridal Coutoure book. Not familiar with this title, but if you are looking to improve your 'quick and dirty' sewing then a couture manual is a good place to start. I have purchased a package of Margo's patterns which have some wonderful guides in them. I plan on working with them today. These are very popular patterns and can produce some spectacular results, even from beginner sewers. They would be good for renaissance festival wear, and basics like skirts, shirts and shifts can carry over into pirate. There really is no good costume pattern book for the Golden Age of Piracy period, 1680-1720. You'll find a few pieces in the 2nd Arnold book, but it's not what people think of when you say 'pirate costume'. You might want to look up Norah Waugh's _Cut of Men's Clothing_, and the accompanying book for women. There are scale diagrams of clothing from the 1680-1720 period, and you can put together a reasonable outfit from what is available there if you can size them up, fit them to your customers, and work without instructions. I also recommend the Gentlemen of Adventure website for an introduction into what real pirates wore and how they acquired their clothing. I think you mean Gentlemen of Fortune http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/pirate_news.htm which used to be run by a customer of mine - don't know if he's still involved. Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] books , sewing and pattern advice
Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: There really is no good costume pattern book for the Golden Age of Piracy period, 1680-1720. Try Reconstructing History www.reconstructinghistory.com . I honestly have to say I don't recommend those patterns. They look nice, and they cover a neglected period, and I'm sure a lot of work went into them. However, I know of two people who have tried to use those patterns and not had good results. One fit poorly and had confusing directions, and one was poorly researched ( and misleadingly represented on the pattern cover.) and incompletely presented. I'd rather someone use the Simplicity pirate patterns than those, where the directions are more clear from step to step and What-you-see-is-what-you-get on the cover. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Detroit Inst Art - Problems : Where is this from again?
I can't get the second image to come up given the object id. Can you tell us what painting it is? I looked through their artist list and didn't find any from Breughel Also tried to register..that doesn't seem to be working for me either! (sad face). http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/images/back.jpg http://www.dia.org/the_collection/overview/viewobject.asp? objectid=35573 (the lady in the foreground on the left in grey--zoom ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] books, sewing and pattern advice re Pirates
I think you mean Gentlemen of Fortune http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/pirate_news.htm which used to be run by a customer of mine - don't know if he's still involved. Suzi Yes, thanks Suzi! Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Simplicity new Civil War patterns
Simplicity summer catalog is out at my local Joann's so I snagged the two new Civil War gown patterns, and the chemise, drawers and corset pattern at the Thurs-Sat $1.99 pattern sale. The gowns are rather dressy. Cindy Abel ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Detroit Inst Art - Problems : Where is this from again?
Sorry--the object id should be part of the url and got chopped off in the message. Try http://tinyurl.com/5waqof Melanie On Apr 28, 2008, at 11:18 AM, Saragrace Knauf wrote: I can't get the second image to come up given the object id. Can you tell us what painting it is? I looked through their artist list and didn't find any from Breughel Also tried to register..that doesn't seem to be working for me either! (sad face). http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/images/back.jpg http:// www.dia.org/the_collection/overview/viewobject.asp? objectid=35573 (the lady in the foreground on the left in grey-- zoom ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] books (tudor/elizabethan era), sewing and pattern advice
My question, if you could use 3 books for this (these) eras, which would you buy? I have to agree with Dawn- Janet Arnold's book has excellent photos, but it is pretty limited in terms of the outfits discussed in it. (that said, I was very pleased to get a copy of it at Christmas- it is an excellent reference book to have around) Tudor Tailor is also a good book (I have it even though I've been concentrating more on Elizabethan clothing), although it's a bit too early for 'pirate' costumes. I'm not an expert by any means, but I do have a couple of friends who have done some research into Elizabethan pirates, and from what I've heard from them (and read myself), pirates didn't really have a particular outfit- what we think of as pirate outfits is a conglomeration of typical clothing of the period with a good dose of fantasy tossed in. If you can afford it (or find a copy to borrow), a good overview book of clothing/items used by sailors in the Elizabethan period is Before the Mast: Life and Death aboard the Mary Rose. It does cover a lot more than just the clothing (it's only a section of it), but it has some good info on some of the clothing found during the excavations. It's also a bit pricey- I picked mine up at Pennsic for $100, though it was well worth the cost for me since most publications deal with the higher classes of society and this of course deals with sailors, most of whom were not wealthy. Also, for patterns, have you looked into www.reconstructinghistory.com? They do carry patterns for the Golden Age of Piracy- I've never looked into those particular patterns, but I own two of her Elizabethan ones (the Shinrone gown and Dungiven outfit), and they were quite accurate when I compared them to the research I had done on my own. Jackie Wyatt Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Sleeve construction: Was Detroit Inst Art - Problems Where was this from again.
Got the link to work- Thanks. When studying to make my model of these (Breughel) jackets, I interpreted the sleeve to actually set into an arm hole. I see that it could also be interpreted without. I just went on the majority rules - even within this painting the similar fashion is shown with a round armhole on women's clothes. Most of the men's also are set into a round hole. Now I gotta get my hands on a good copy of the Deposition .. by Gerard David.Curious about the no waist seam... In my memory, someone had done a pretty detailed evaluation of this gown, or at least the issue on a website somewhereanyone remember?Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Where is this from again?
Whoops - I guess I won't be looking for the Gerard David pic. Thanks Suzie - do let us know what you find out when you get to the National Galler! Sg Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 07:33:38 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Where is this from again? Hanna Zickermann wrote: You´re welcome. The picture is taken from the British Museum MS. No. D. IX. (late fifteenth century). That's what Houston says, but that's not a recognizable MS shelfmark for the British Museum. As far as I know, all manuscripts there have a collection name as part of the shelfmark (Harley, Royal, Cotton and its many subsets, etc.). Plus Houston doesn't give a folio number, so you might as well whistle as find that thing. I've never seen it ... and I've looked, having been interested in her supposed archway armhole for many years. (Frankly, I don't think that straight sleeve cap will work in most fabrics, maybe none at all, without pinching deeply in front and back of the shoulder joint.) I do know it's not London, British Library Royal 1 D. ix, which is Anglo-Saxon. So is MS Cotton Junius D. ix, I believe. Could be MS Royal 18 D. ix, which is an illuminated Bible of Edward IV, from 1479 Bruges,, but I've only seen a page or two from it, not enough to guess if the style matches up with Houston's drawing. There's also MS Nero D. ix., the Romance of Sir Jehan de Santre, 15th c., which looks promising though I've seen only one image from it. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Sleeve construction: Was Detroit Inst Art - Problems Where was this from again.
On Apr 28, 2008, at 11:51 AM, Saragrace Knauf wrote: Got the link to work- Thanks. When studying to make my model of these (Breughel) jackets, I interpreted the sleeve to actually set into an arm hole. I see that it could also be interpreted without. I just went on the majority rules - even within this painting the similar fashion is shown with a round armhole on women's clothes. Most of the men's also are set into a round hole. It's true that some are shown with a regular round armscye, but some are clearly missing that seam, so I think the square-bottomed armscye was another option (especially if it shows up in the 15th century as well). Someday I'll try one just to see how it works. Melanie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] books , sewing and pattern advice
I haven't used the pirate ones, but the one I used was clear enough, fit well together and generally worked well. If you have issues about one of the patterns, you might want to tell Kass, I'm sure she'd love to improve them. I agree, though, that the cover gives an impression more than a detailed look of the finished result. They're not line drawings of the final piece... On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Dawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: There really is no good costume pattern book for the Golden Age of Piracy period, 1680-1720. Try Reconstructing History www.reconstructinghistory.com . I honestly have to say I don't recommend those patterns. They look nice, and they cover a neglected period, and I'm sure a lot of work went into them. However, I know of two people who have tried to use those patterns and not had good results. One fit poorly and had confusing directions, and one was poorly researched ( and misleadingly represented on the pattern cover.) and incompletely presented. I'd rather someone use the Simplicity pirate patterns than those, where the directions are more clear from step to step and What-you-see-is-what-you-get on the cover. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Vintage patterns and clothing, cigarette smoke
I just wanted to check whether there was any point in trying to find a buyer for them. Yes, as long as you advertise properly that they're from a smoker's house. A few years ago, I would probably have bought the whole lot. Now, I lack the space to store them! Likewise, though off-topic (because they are not costume books; apparently I developed that obsession on my own) are the books in the house rendered worthless by the smoke and tar? No. IMO, it takes much more than a bad smell and some yellowing to render a book worthless - but then, I'm a book lover... I am also hoping for some suggestions about how to get the smell out of the clothes, patterns, or books that I might want to save. Baking soda is often recommended. Lots of it, change often. Activated carbon supposedly does a good job too. Clothes, hang them out in the wind and sun for several days (a good washing first always helps, if they're the kind of clothes that can be washed). ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] books (tudor/elizabethan era), sewing and pattern advice
I think all of those books are worth having (except for The Costume close up - I don't know this book very well, so I cannot tell) and you would sooner or later buy them anyway. The Susan Khalje book is an excellent book of its sort - not speaking of the nice design and pictures, it tells you everything you would want to know when trying to make an evening or wedding dress. Susan Khalje gives many interesting tips and tricks that would otherwise be very time-consuming to figure them out, like how and where exactly attach boning, what layers to use under skirts to make them look as you want to, how to work with lace and how to place it on the curved bodice by hiding the cut places, she gives suggestions as what fabrics to use for what garments - she is very fond of silk organza - for petticoats, underlining, bone channels. This is one of the rare books that show you professional-done garments and reveal all their making secrets. Even if you're an advanced sewer, I still think you'll find many good tips here. Maybe a pure beginner would not be able to appreciate the value of the information given. It has nothing to do with period costume, however, be aware of that, but if you sew modern or fantasy evening/bridal dresses, go for it, it is a very practical book with loads of information. I learned many interesting tips from here. It would be quite funny to see a different way of constructing the same garments - any tips on other books of this sort? Zuzana - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] books , sewing and pattern advice
I haven't used them, but I've seen many pictures of finished garments that were made with the help of these patterns and almost always the result was horrible. Some of the patterns were - let's say - relatively accurate (compared to some other patterns), but the look of the costumes - aahh... Accuracy and good-looking have the same value for me...that is why I sometimes tend to make non-historical adjustments to make the dress look better. I think though it is possible to make good-looking accurate dresses (depends very much on the period-I think the medieval period can be a trouble), but it is something I still have much trouble with. Zuzana Dawn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Audrey Bergeron-Morin wrote: There really is no good costume pattern book for the Golden Age of Piracy period, 1680-1720. Try Reconstructing History www.reconstructinghistory.com . I honestly have to say I don't recommend those patterns. They look nice, and they cover a neglected period, and I'm sure a lot of work went into them. However, I know of two people who have tried to use those patterns and not had good results. One fit poorly and had confusing directions, and one was poorly researched ( and misleadingly represented on the pattern cover.) and incompletely presented. I'd rather someone use the Simplicity pirate patterns than those, where the directions are more clear from step to step and What-you-see-is-what-you-get on the cover. Dawn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own
From: Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] People seriously interested in research do not buy or read a book based on whether they know or like the author. U, yes they do. I consider myself a serious researcher. I also will not buy any of your books. There is enough information out there from other authors that I seriously doubt I will ever miss your information. I think what you do is wonderful, but your attitude really turns people off. I know this discussion has taken place many times before and you have made it plain that you don't care. That's fine. But there are lots of us out here that DO care! And we matter also. Cactus Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] books , sewing and pattern advice
I haven't used the pirate ones, but the one I used was clear enough, fit well together and generally worked well. I had a few problems with the two patterns I've made from Reconstructing History, but I emailed Kass and she was happy to help. I should mention that these patterns (or at least the ones I've done) are not for beginners- in the case of the two Irish patterns I have, they have been drafted using the actual items themselves, which often goes contrary to what we are used to today. For example- I had an 'interesting' time with the Dungiven trews as they are constructed so they wrap around the legs, rather than simply having the seams on the sides like most pairs of pants. They also look quite strange, and some people might think it is poorly fitted, however my own research tells me that these are indeed correctly fitted- the legs are tight, yet you could almost fit a small child in the seat of them due to their construction; amazingly, I've found them to be extremely comfortable and durable, aside from needing to change the waist a bit to accommodate female hips. I have never really looked at the later pieces, so I can't say for sure how good they are, but I do know that Kass is always willing to take suggestions and answer questions about the patterns. I agree, though, that the cover gives an impression more than a detailed look of the finished result. They're not line drawings of the final piece... That is very true, but I've found that to be the case with quite a few 'period' patterns... Jackie Wyatt Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own
I have my sales figures, you don't, and I very seriously doubt that many people who'd buy a book anyway would not buy it just because they don't like me. I am not my books. Also, you're right, I don't give a damn whether some stranger likes me. Fran I think what you do is wonderful, but your attitude really turns people off. I know this discussion has taken place many times before and you have made it plain that you don't care. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The Home for Wayward Bad Costume Books
Also, so we could avoid (or purge) them? Patty -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pixel, Goddess and Queen Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 2:13 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The Home for Wayward Bad Costume Books Do you by chance have a list of the ones you already own, so you don't end up with duplicates? Jen On Fri, 25 Apr 2008, Robin Netherton wrote: ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Sleeve construction: Was Detroit Inst Art - Problems Where was this from again.
Exstock wrote: - Original Message - From: Saragrace Knauf [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip Now I gotta get my hands on a good copy of the Deposition .. by Gerard David.Curious about the no waist seam... Which version? There's a nice zoomable hi-res version of the 1484 Deposition (renamed Lamentation to avoid confusion, apparently, but called Deposition in many books) online at: http://snipurl.com/266hs [www_nationalgallery_org_uk] That's the one! I didn't find it in my own image search (because I was looking under both Deposition and Descent From the Cross, but not Lamentation), though I actually spent a lot more time going through a dozen or so books on Flemish 15th c. painting (including two National Gallery catalogs!) and found only one poor image -- and I looked at every David I had in case it was retitled in those. (E., where did you get 1484? The website says 1515-23.) Those high-res museum scans are great. Zooming in on the woman in light blue at the lower left, you can see the corner at the armhole very well. If you look close you'll also see a side seam on the body under the arm. I think -- am not sure -- that there may be diagonal lacings on that. I suspect there's a waist seam hidden in that fold at the waist, despite Houston saying there's none. The side seam does not continue down the skirt, and if the dress were cut in one, it would. At 1515 (or even 1484), waist seams would be quite likely anyway, though not exclusively the case. The lady in red in the back right does not have a waist seam, but also may be deliberately done in old style, given the subject matter. Magdalen (in green) is too dark for me to make out any seams below the shoulder. No clue how the sleeve itself is shaped but I truly doubt Houston's diagram; it wouldn't want to bend in three dimensions and still leave room for an arm. Where to put the curves is another matter. I would probably start with some flexible wool and shape it over a suitable body to find out. Not high on my priority list at the moment, though. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Google book search - How to
Easiest way to get this to work: I did have to go to a different computer - my husband's. I just typed Medieval Costume in England and France fig. 257 into Google's normal web search - I have been able to see the full pages before and after...so far no limit on the prieview. Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Where was this from again.
Okay - now that I can read the text, I understand what Robin was saying - the figures 257 and 258 are not from the Deposition/Lamentation by Gerard Davidso now to hunt down the reference MS No D IX... Thanks for the links to the Lamentation!Sg Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 12:47:43 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Sleeve construction: Was Detroit Inst Art - Problems Where was this from again. Exstock wrote: - Original Message - From: Saragrace Knauf [EMAIL PROTECTED] snip Now I gotta get my hands on a good copy of the Deposition .. by Gerard David.Curious about the no waist seam...Which version? There's a nice zoomable hi-res version of the 1484 Deposition (renamed Lamentation to avoid confusion, apparently, but called Deposition in many books) online at: http://snipurl.com/266hs [www_nationalgallery_org_uk] That's the one! I didn't find it in my own image search (because I was looking under both Deposition and Descent From the Cross, but not Lamentation), though I actually spent a lot more time going through a dozen or so books on Flemish 15th c. painting (including two National Gallery catalogs!) an! d found only one poor image -- and I looked at every David I had in case it was retitled in those. (E., where did you get 1484? The website says 1515-23.) Those high-res museum scans are great. Zooming in on the woman in light blue at the lower left, you can see the corner at the armhole very well. If you look close you'll also see a side seam on the body under the arm. I think -- am not sure -- that there may be diagonal lacings on that. I suspect there's a waist seam hidden in that fold at the waist, despite Houston saying there's none. The side seam does not continue down the skirt, and if the dress were cut in one, it would. At 1515 (or even 1484), waist seams would be quite likely anyway, though not exclusively the case. The lady in red in the back right does not have a waist seam, but also may be deliberately done in old style, given the subject matter. Magdalen (in green) is too dark for me to make out any seams below the shoulder. ! No clue how the sleeve itself is shaped but I truly doubt Hou! ston's diagram; it wouldn't want to bend in three dimensions and still leave room for an arm. Where to put the curves is another matter. I would probably start with some flexible wool and shape it over a suitable body to find out. Not high on my priority list at the moment, though. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] h-cost] Vintage patterns and clothing, cigarette smoke
A trick that I learned from a used book dealer friend of mine: Place the books into an air tight bag (trash bag) with Kitty Litter. The amount of litter varies with the number of books and amount of smoke. Let sit, checking every month or so. The smoke smell will gradually be removed. Any yellowing will not change, however. Beth At 11:19 AM 4/28/2008, you wrote: Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:46:23 + From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi, all, I am helping my 82-year-old parents clear out their house in preparation for moving to something more manageable. My mom used to sew, and I am finding boxes and boxes of patterns from the 60s and 70s -- Simplicity, Butterick, McCall's, Vogue. Likewise, there are four double closets full of, um, typical suburban clothes and shoes, mostly from the 70s. My question is whether there is a market for them, given that they have been kept for 40 years in a house with at least two and sometimes four cigarette smokers. Everything in the house has a strong cigarette smoke smell; many things are brown with what I guess is deposited tar. (Veimru: Yuck.) So before I tell my dad it should all go in a dumpster, I just wanted to check whether there was any point in trying to find a buyer for them. Likewise, though off-topic (because they are not costume books; apparently I developed that obsession on my own) are the books in the house rendered worthless by the smoke and tar? I am also hoping for some suggestions about how to get the smell out of the clothes, patterns, or books that I might want to save. Thanks for any thoughts you might share. Lauren [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] The Home for Wayward Bad Costume Books
Thank you! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 11:33 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] The Home for Wayward Bad Costume Books Zuzana Kraemerova wrote: If you, however, made by chance such a list, post it here so that I know what not to buy... You cannot look inside books when you order them through amazon. I've already purchased quite a number of very disappointing books... My bad might be someone else's useful, particularly if that someone else is doing theatre costume. Also, my focus is on medieval dress, which may or may not be the same as your interest. Some of my favorite bad books cover many centuries and probably do a reasonably good job in the later ones, but not in medieval. (This is something that happens a lot with textbooks and survey books, particularly if the author is a specialist in, say, 18th or 19th century and writes the medieval section based on other books without knowing how to spot the errors.) On the other hand: I don't think anyone here would mind if you asked here about specific books you're thinking of buying, and then people who have the book can tell you whether it's useful for specific periods and purposes. FWIW, these are just some of the things on my own bad books shelf: - Bigelow, Fashion in History (my old college textbook -- just horrible) - Kohler, Dover reprint of 1928 edition (very good for some things, but unreliable in others) - Norris's Tudor volume, original 1938 and also the Dover reprint (I still need to get the medieval one) - Wilton, Book of Costume, 1986 Shep annotated reprint of 1846 edition - Ashdown, original 1910 edition (but now it's out in Dover reprint) - Gorsline, What People Wore, 1952 (not bad as a general overview for beginners, but it's all redrawings) - Lister, Costumes of Everyday Life, 1972 (OK for visual overview but repeats a lot of myths, and all redrawings) - Cremers-van der Does, Agony of Fashion, 1980 (agenda-heavy theory and bad information) - Sage, Study of Costume, 1926 (typical of its time, regurgitated errors) - Lester, Historic Costume, englarged fourth ed. 1956 (ditto), and 1961 edition of same, expanded for later periods by Kerr - Evans, Costume Throughout the Ages, 1930 (ditto) - Laver, Costume and Fashion, 1985 reprint of 1969 ed. (at least this one has some real artwork!) - Laver, Costume through the Ages, 1963, (all redrawings, no text to speak of) - Houston, Medieval Costume in England and France, 1996 Dover reprint of 1939 volume That's less than half of them. I have more like these, plus a number of non-English books, old coffee-table picture books, etc. Again, I only looked at the medieval/Renaiassance sections of these. Some of them might be very good for Victorian! But most of them are in general badly sourced and simply repeat assumptions from previous books. --Robin -- Robin Netherton Editor at Large [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (314) 439-1222 // fax: (314) 439-1666 Life is just a bowl of queries. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Sleeve construction: Was Detroit Inst Art - Problems Where was this from again.
- Original Message - From: Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] (E., where did you get 1484? The website says 1515-23.) That's another case of different sources, different dates, but 1515-1523 must be a website type; it's way out. This is one of his earlier works, and the style of the garments is well in line with what I've seen in the mid 1480s. I'm not sure where I first saw the 1484 date, but since I spent ages trying to track down a hi-res version of this painting, I've looked at lots of low res versions with (varying) attributions/dates/etc. I suspect there's a waist seam hidden in that fold at the waist, despite Houston saying there's none. It was, in fact, Houston who made me try so hard to track this sucker down! I didn't believe her seaming then, and I don't believe it now. However, there are a few Maitre de Francois (sorry that's the only name I have for him) illuminations c1475 that show similar sleeve heads (except with a rounded point) going into a vertical side-back seam, with no waist seam. No clue how the sleeve itself is shaped but I truly doubt Houston's diagram; it wouldn't want to bend in three dimensions and still leave room for an arm. Where to put the curves is another matter. I would probably start with some flexible wool and shape it over a suitable body to find out. Not high on my priority list at the moment, though. I've fit this sleeve a few times, though for c1510-20 dresses. It is NOT fun to fit. I'll try to scan in or sketch out the sleeve head shape that I wound up with tonight. The extra panels at the torso do help a ton with setting the sleeve in. By the way, the reason I am so forlorn that the Marriage at Cana by G. David has not aged terribly well is that the woman in red, sitting with her back towards the audience, is also (as far as I can tell) wearing a dress with the sleeves seamed this way. There are a handful of other images showing it; if anyone needs them, let me know, but expect to wait a day or so until I get the chance to upload them! -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Where was this from again.
Saragrace Knauf wrote: Okay - now that I can read the text, I understand what Robin was saying - the figures 257 and 258 are not from the Deposition/Lamentation by Gerard Davidso now to hunt down the reference MS No D IX... Yeah, well, good luck with that (see my previous post). I'm sure a little time in a good university library, with a manuscript catalog from the BL, would turn up some candidates for D ix other than the two 15th-century possibilities I listed earlier, but then you'd have to comb each of those books to find which image it might be (since Houston doesn't give folio numbers). BL has some of its illuminated mss online, but not anything from Royal or Cotton (and I think not from Harley either), which are really big, important collections. BL may have a full list of mss online somewhere, but the only search function I saw there in a cursory glance only covered those mss for which actual page images were online. Bear in mind also that Houston very likely never saw the original illumination. A lot of her images are redrawings from earlier costume books--I've recognized some taken from Planche, Strutt, and Jacquemin--with those authors' adjustments incorporated and her own added. Her bibliography lists these sources and others, all of them secondary. (Some of her images come from published rubbings of monumental brasses, and she cites several standard references of those; those at least will be slightly less removed from the original sources than her redrawings from other costume authors.) Houston's error in the shelfmark for D. ix could easily have been a misunderstanding or mistranscription of a fuller shelfmark cited by a previous author. Strutt in particular took a huge proportion of his images from mss in the British Library (and he *did* examine the originals and drew directly from them, and reasonably well), and he sourced everything by shelfmark. So if you can get your hands on a copy of Strutt, that might be a good place to look to identify the right MS. Planche mostly copied from Strutt, and Fairholt from both of them. IIRC, Jacquemin used mostly French sources, including some from the Bib. Nationale de Paris. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own
Why does anyone have to be in a group to buy costume related books? I think that it's correlative, not causative. Patty ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own
And a lot of people have to choose between books and fabric. You can't get fabric (or sewing machines!) from the library, so that often is where the money has to go. It doesn't mean these people aren't using books. --Robin Books are a lot easier to borrow than fabric! ;-) Patty ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Sleeve construction
I'd be interested in any thing you have on it/them. I have written the British Museum to see if they can help me track down the reference to MS. No. D. IX. showing it; if anyone needs them, let me know, but expect to wait a day or so until I get the chance to upload them! I'm patient! Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Where was this from again.
Yikes! I just wrote the British Museum to see if they had a clue Oh well, I've looked like an idiot before! :) I will follow up with Strutt - thanks for your pointers. Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Wow - Strutt - Was : Where is this from again.
Look what I just found! http://www.dragonbear.com/strutt.html May not be the text Robin was referring too, but ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] New Sewing Machine
I own the Viking Designer SE, I love it so if you have the cash? I would Most assuredly state pick it, but also? Since you were mentioning a larger field for embroidery? The newest Pfaff you should look at because at the moment it has the largest field. I went to several stores to play with the machines, once they see you are doing this not to 'play' but to see which machine is right for you? Typically they allow you to stitch out a design. Also? When speaking of embroidery machines it is more the program that you have that will also achieve results. If you are into or know Coreldraw, there is an embroidery machine version. Also Pfaff and Husqvarna have their new program 4D which is very fun I am working with it, as well as Generations and well I bet a bunch more. So you don't have to get the TOP end machine, you can still get awesome results with the top end program! Cilean ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Wow - Strutt
Lucky me - the entire book is available in PDF online! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:49:49 -0700 Subject: [h-cost] Wow - Strutt - Was : Where is this from again. Look what I just found! http://www.dragonbear.com/strutt.html May not be the text Robin was referring too, but ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Vintage patterns and clothing, cigarette smoke
I think libraries have something as well. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:59 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Vintage patterns and clothing, cigarette smoke I believe drycleaners use an ozone treatment for smoke smells on clothing. I don't know if that would work on paper also. It depends if the expense is worth the item. I agree, truth in advertising and the end buyer can decide. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New embroidery machine
If you could have absolutely any embroidery machine you wanted, which would you buy? As I said, I want a large field and compatibility with my PC and yes, I love Corel's s/w. Also, what kinds of stitches are available on the various embroidery machines, beyond the usual satin stitch and stuff that's been available in basic machines for a while? I'd like a broad range of stitches. How easy is it to tile embroidery designs larger than your field, or can you? For example, suppose I want something that is not a repeating pattern of, say, identical flowers along a border, but something like one picture of a dragon on the back of a modern blouse, that is several times as large as the machine's field? Can I tile/embroider the large dragon in several seamless sections, or not? The idea of a low-end commercial machine is tempting, but I don't know much about them other than that there is a kind I don't want, which has several embroidery heads that go along a length of fabric and essentially do stripes. I've bought commercial fabrics embroidered like that and they can be great, if the clothing pattern is carefully laid out on them. But with an embroidery machine I'd be looking to do designs on garment pieces that were customized to the garment shape. If I get a machine like the Viking designer, I already have an older non-embroidery Viking for sewing, and I am very happy with it for that purpose. As I said I don't want to make room for a lot of machines. On the other hand, is it often desirable to leave a partly-embroidered project sitting on the machine while you go do something else? If so I am wondering if it would be a good idea to also keep my old Viking so I have a machine free to sew with while an embroidery project is in process. I admit it, I'm also looking for ease of use, in terms of things like keeping track of multiple colors of threads, and BTW, I assume any given machine can only handle so many spools at a time and that is a consideration? But anyway, I don't want to stop the machine every few minutes to cut threads or change spools. My fantasy is to thread the machine, set it up to do the design, and then pretty much leave it alone till it finishes, as far as is feasible. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com Monie wrote: I own the Viking Designer SE, I love it so if you have the cash? I would Most assuredly state pick it, but also? Since you were mentioning a larger field for embroidery? The newest Pfaff you should look at because at the moment it has the largest field. I went to several stores to play with the machines, once they see you are doing this not to 'play' but to see which machine is right for you? Typically they allow you to stitch out a design. Also? When speaking of embroidery machines it is more the program that you have that will also achieve results. If you are into or know Coreldraw, there is an embroidery machine version. Also Pfaff and Husqvarna have their new program 4D which is very fun I am working with it, as well as Generations and well I bet a bunch more. So you don't have to get the TOP end machine, you can still get awesome results with the top end program! Cilean ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own
Well said! Anne -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shirley Hobbs Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:51 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own From: Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] People seriously interested in research do not buy or read a book based on whether they know or like the author. U, yes they do. I consider myself a serious researcher. I also will not buy any of your books. There is enough information out there from other authors that I seriously doubt I will ever miss your information. I think what you do is wonderful, but your attitude really turns people off. I know this discussion has taken place many times before and you have made it plain that you don't care. That's fine. But there are lots of us out here that DO care! And we matter also. Cactus Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1401 - Release Date: 4/28/2008 7:18 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1401 - Release Date: 4/28/2008 7:18 AM ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own
To deflate your little power trip, guys, there have to be thousands of people in an audience to even make a dent or have any influence on book sales at all. I don't even know that many from e-mail lists, let alone that many who dislike me. It may be fun to run around thinking that what you personally do can make or break someone's business, but it's sheer illusion. And there is no reason why I personally should care what you think. Fran Anne Moeller wrote: Well said! Anne -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shirley Hobbs Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:51 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own From: Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] People seriously interested in research do not buy or read a book based on whether they know or like the author. U, yes they do. I consider myself a serious researcher. I also will not buy any of your books. There is enough information out there from other authors that I seriously doubt I will ever miss your information. I think what you do is wonderful, but your attitude really turns people off. I know this discussion has taken place many times before and you have made it plain that you don't care. That's fine. But there are lots of us out here that DO care! And we matter also. Cactus Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1401 - Release Date: 4/28/2008 7:18 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1401 - Release Date: 4/28/2008 7:18 AM ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] books and resources
OK you H-Costume folk, if you will take one more reflection on Books/Resources from a recently retired costumer,.. When I began my craft nearly 50 years ago, I soon found that there were few books or resources for period costuming available from my local library or even the college library and bookstore. An early acquisition was a slim how-to volume by Jonston that based all her 2000 years of period design for the making on a man’s PJ pattern and a woman’s 4 piece dress pattern. Size was of no consideration. She even provided approximate yardage for the work-up for S-M-L. I thought this was great. To enlarge the reality aspects, I spent days in the libraries and museums studying the other details that would bring my primitive designs closer to the reality of the occasion at hand. Honing my hand/eye skills using the basic Jonston method, I was soon finding that I could look at a picture and dissect the 2D design into the necessary shapes that would recreate the fashion before me. With an indication of size, I could even do a lot of the cutting free handed using my tape measure and a vision of the shape necessary to get the right draping. Wow. I was on my way… I was given the one volume edition of Davernport, discovered Koehler, Barton, Evans, Laver, the Cunningtons and Gorseline. Non was perfect but each added something of value, good or bad, to my self education toward the craft of costuming About 5 years into my new career, and many shows later, I encountered Arnold for the first time and was bowled over by the concept and scholarship she was doing and this raised the bar somewhat for me toward becoming more scientific in my own scholarship and craft. On first observation, I found that I had solved many of my design problems in the very same way that she had determined by firsthand observation, and this gave me an affirmation and encouragement that I was going about my costume production in somewhat the right manner. Also, about this time, I encountered Ann Hollander’s Seeing Through Clothes that had a profound influence on me concerning the facts of perception and problems of replication when interpreting clothing and costume from the past. Following some of her ideas, I began to look for obscure costume books that might have been on the cutting edge of what was known or perceived as costume in and of its own time period. Thus began my significant collection of Godey’s, Peterson’s, Arthur’s; The Story of Clothes by Agnes Allen, a four volume set of English Costume by Dion Clayton Calthrope, Costumes and Scenery for Amateurs, Constance Darcy Mackay; Costume Fanciful, Historical and Theatrical compiled by Mrs. Aria; Mrs. Earle’s,Wilton’s, Laver…for just a few. Each is valued for the view points given and taken of how they understood what Historical costuming meant for their own time. In the early 1990s, my husband introduced me to the wonderful new world of H-costume. For the very first time I felt connected to a host of new friends who were doing for joy or livelihood what I was doing…who knew what the problems were and were willing to share solutions. It is hard to imagine interpreting the styles and clothing of the past without them. Eons later, we have the wonderful Library that Penny is developing, Robin’s Medieval studies, Fran’s de-ciphers of 19th C pattern making, the various Shep reprints. Melanie’s patterns, Bjarne’s wonderful and inspiring embroideries, Lorena’s patterns and embroideries; pictoral work of Sally Keene. The compilations and other resource material by Boumgarten Bissonet, Drea and such…all a very rich heritage for the present and for years to come. Maybe even some of this work will strike those readers and do-ers of costume craft and history as outdated or uninformed but for the present, this is what we have. Rejoice! Kathleen Mitchell___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own
I don't really think someone can dislike a person by just reading his posts and never seeing him personally. If you're not a genius writer, you can never express your thoughts just as you have them in your head, which may lead to misunderstanding. Nevertheless, a book and his author can be two quite different things. I think people should be objective and regard the book as a result of work and study of the author, whatever his personality is. Technically-based women and most men would have this a bit easier. They would be more objective and would tend to say strictly what they want, which might sound a bit - hm - rude. Nothing to blame for , it's just a different way of thinking... I think it's quite natural that you buy more books from an author who's sympathetic to you, but I don't really like the idea of doing the opposite - unless you have a very good reason for it. Zuzana Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To deflate your little power trip, guys, there have to be thousands of people in an audience to even make a dent or have any influence on book sales at all. I don't even know that many from e-mail lists, let alone that many who dislike me. It may be fun to run around thinking that what you personally do can make or break someone's business, but it's sheer illusion. And there is no reason why I personally should care what you think. Fran Anne Moeller wrote: Well said! Anne -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shirley Hobbs Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:51 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own From: Lavolta Press People seriously interested in research do not buy or read a book based on whether they know or like the author. U, yes they do. I consider myself a serious researcher. I also will not buy any of your books. There is enough information out there from other authors that I seriously doubt I will ever miss your information. I think what you do is wonderful, but your attitude really turns people off. I know this discussion has taken place many times before and you have made it plain that you don't care. That's fine. But there are lots of us out here that DO care! And we matter also. Cactus Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1401 - Release Date: 4/28/2008 7:18 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1401 - Release Date: 4/28/2008 7:18 AM ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Where was this from again - FOUND IT
Yikes! I just wrote the British Museum to see if they had a clue Oh well, I've looked like an idiot before! :) I will follow up with Strutt - thanks for your pointers. Sg -- http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/NotesLEJEUDELAHACHE.htm Second and fifth image, caption MS Nero D.IX folio 103 Does this help? Caithlinn _ You dream job is up for grabs. Grab it. http://mycareer.com.au/?s_cid=596065 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Wow - Strutt
Saragrace Knauf wrote: Lucky me - the entire book is available in PDF online! I see the plates on the dragonbear site, but not the text. Did I miss it? That's where you'll find Strutt's list of ms citations, along with lots and lots more. The intro on that site says 1862. Strutt wrote the book in 1796, and the original two-volume set is a wonder to behold if you are lucky enough to see one (usually in a rare book room). James Robinson Planche, the foremost Victorian English costume historian (at least he'd have said so if you'd asked him) published a revised Strutt edition, complete with his own annotations, in 1842. There is no 1862 edition that I know of, so that may have been a typo for the 1842 edition, either by the site owner or the original eBay seller of the plates. I don't think I've ever seen a copy of the Planche edition of Strutt that was hand-colored like these, but that doesn't mean this isn't one. It would make me ill to think that this might be a 1796 Strutt taken apart and sold page by page. Not so awful if it's the Planche edition, which is comparatively common, but still pretty distressing. --Robin From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:49:49 -0700 Subject: [h-cost] Wow - Strutt - Was : Where is this from again. Look what I just found! http://www.dragonbear.com/strutt.html May not be the text Robin was referring too, but ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Robin Netherton Editor at Large [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (314) 439-1222 // fax: (314) 439-1666 Life is just a bowl of queries. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Where was this from again - FOUND IT
C M wrote: Yikes! I just wrote the British Museum to see if they had a clue Oh well, I've looked like an idiot before! :) I will follow up with Strutt - thanks for your pointers. Sg -- http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/NotesLEJEUDELAHACHE.htm Second and fifth image, caption MS Nero D.IX folio 103 Well, very cool. Real needle-in-a-haystack stuff to find the right image from that truncated reference out of Houston. I am pleased it turned out to be one of the two candidates I turned up, and the one I thought was stylistically promising, but my patience in looking for examples of plates from those mss was exhausted much earlier ;-) Note that's not just Nero in the BL cataloguing system, but actually Cotton Nero. The Cotton collection has loads of sub-collections with different names. There's a superscript on the folio number 103 that (based on the elusive note 7 I found on another page on this website) is an r, meaning fol. 103 recto, the front of the page. If anyone is really hot for this image, you can probably purchase a slide of the image from the BM. You will need all the above information to specify what you want. Can't tell on my monitor if the seams match Houston's, but from the position, it's certainly the figure she intended. Which secondary source she drew her copy from is anyone's guess. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Wow - Strutt on the web
Robin Netherton wrote: I don't think I've ever seen a copy of the Planche edition of Strutt that was hand-colored like these, but that doesn't mean this isn't one. It would make me ill to think that this might be a 1796 Strutt taken apart and sold page by page. Not so awful if it's the Planche edition, which is comparatively common, but still pretty distressing. I can shed a little light here. As I recall, a few years back, someone on this list saw these plates up for sale on eBay. I sent a note about them to my local SCA list, as an example of what people used to think folks wore in the middle ages. At that point, Carol (webmistress of Dragonbear) saved the files for posterity and put them on her webpages. Someone with more time than I have today (sorry) could search the H-Cost archives and find out more, if we ever knew more, about which edition. Regards, Cynthia --- Vacation rentals on the coast of Maine, space still available. http://www.virtue.to/cottages.html ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Where was this from again - FOUND IT
Wow! How'd you figure this out? Thank you! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 06:41:42 +1000 Subject: Re: [h-cost] Where was this from again - FOUND IT Yikes! I just wrote the British Museum to see if they had a clue Oh well, I've looked like an idiot before! :) I will follow up with Strutt - thanks for your pointers. Sg -- http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/NotesLEJEUDELAHACHE.htm Second and fifth image, caption MS Nero D.IX folio 103 Does this help? Caithlinn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Wow - Strutt on the web
Cynthia Virtue wrote: As I recall, a few years back, someone on this list saw these plates up for sale on eBay. I sent a note about them to my local SCA list, as an example of what people used to think folks wore in the middle ages. At that point, Carol (webmistress of Dragonbear) saved the files for posterity and put them on her webpages. Yes, I did not mean to imply that the Dragonbear site was responsible for breaking up the book! The eBay story is explained on the index page there. But the edition date is not correct. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Wow - Strutt on the web
Robin Netherton wrote: Yes, I did not mean to imply that the Dragonbear site was responsible for breaking up the book! The eBay story is explained on the index page there. But the edition date is not correct. Not to worry; didn't think you were. I should have gone to reread the Dragonbear info before posting. Likely the edition date is what the eBay poster listed. cv ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Where was this from again - FOUND IT
Hi everyone, I was just pointed to this discussion by a friend who remembered a conversation we had a few months ago about the construction of common people's clothing versus noble clothing. As someone who's primarily studied the garments of the working class, the sometimes striking differences in construction intrigue me. Last summer, I did a reconstruction of Netherlandish Working Woman's Clothing using cutting techniques I learned from other 16th century working people's garments such as the Shinrone Gown and the Dungiven Jacket. Both of these garments make use of rectangles and triangles in what could be termed a medieval way. And yet in shape the garments look like clothing of more wealthy people, clothing whose construction is quite different and more wasteful of fabric. The reason I bring this up is that both the Shinrone Gown and the Dungiven Jacket share a feature in common with the illustration in question (and the line drawing in Houston): square-bottom armholes. The way the armholes are cut in the Dungiven Jacket and Shinrone Gown wastes almost no fabric. On one, the cut fabric is folded inward and becomes a lining/facing. On the other, the fabric is folded out and becomes a shoulder wing. It's a fascinating use of cut and incredible conservative on yardage. I used this armhole-cutting technique on my Netherlandish dress and it cuts the right jib. I've blogged about my reconstruction here: http://reconstructinghistory.blogspot.com/2007/09/netherlandish-working-wome n-part-2.html Kass http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/ Looking for the perfect gift for the RH fan on your list? Try a RH Gift Certificate http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/index.php?s=c=123d=160e=f=g=w=21 q=1p=360r=Y . They never expire! http://reconstructinghistory.com http://community.livejournal.com/rh_community/ http://kass-rants.livejournal.com http://www.reconstructinghistory.blogspot.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Robin Netherton Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 5:08 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Where was this from again - FOUND IT C M wrote: Yikes! I just wrote the British Museum to see if they had a clue Oh well, I've looked like an idiot before! :) I will follow up with Strutt - thanks for your pointers. Sg -- http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/NotesLEJEUDELAHACHE.htm Second and fifth image, caption MS Nero D.IX folio 103 Well, very cool. Real needle-in-a-haystack stuff to find the right image from that truncated reference out of Houston. I am pleased it turned out to be one of the two candidates I turned up, and the one I thought was stylistically promising, but my patience in looking for examples of plates from those mss was exhausted much earlier ;-) Note that's not just Nero in the BL cataloguing system, but actually Cotton Nero. The Cotton collection has loads of sub-collections with different names. There's a superscript on the folio number 103 that (based on the elusive note 7 I found on another page on this website) is an r, meaning fol. 103 recto, the front of the page. If anyone is really hot for this image, you can probably purchase a slide of the image from the BM. You will need all the above information to specify what you want. Can't tell on my monitor if the seams match Houston's, but from the position, it's certainly the figure she intended. Which secondary source she drew her copy from is anyone's guess. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own
I buy a huge number of books by people I've never met (many of whom are dead, so I never will), and some by people I can't stand personally. The only thing that matters is the content of book. Likewise, when working for other publishers and for computer companies, I have worked with some authors and co-workers who were temperamental, incompetent, had a lot of personal problems/crises, and who had other flaws that made them hard to work with. So what? I had to work with them anyway, so I did, and we did a good job together. What mattered was the work. I don't think it pays to look at the world primarily in terms of personal relationships and feelings, and particularly the business world. Quite simply, things are not all about any individual and their personal feelings, whether mine or someone else's. I don't kid myself that anyone publishing a book, even one that I gladly buy the minute I hear about it, gives a rat's patootie about me personally or would spend any time whatever catering to my own personal tastes. Not unless those personal tastes were similar to thousands of other book buyers, which apparently they often are. That does not mean I don't have a very sincere interest in costume--I wouldn't spend 14 years of full-time work writing about it if I didn't. Nor would I sew. That doesn't mean I dislike everyone in some particular group, including h-costume. It doesn't mean I have no personal friends. But I think it would be very silly to run my life according to who I personally like or who personally likes me, or to expect everyone to personally like me. If people like me, they do. If they don't, they don't. And that's true for everyone else, as far as I can tell. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com Zuzana Kraemerova wrote: I don't really think someone can dislike a person by just reading his posts and never seeing him personally. If you're not a genius writer, you can never express your thoughts just as you have them in your head, which may lead to misunderstanding. Nevertheless, a book and his author can be two quite different things. I think people should be objective and regard the book as a result of work and study of the author, whatever his personality is. Technically-based women and most men would have this a bit easier. They would be more objective and would tend to say strictly what they want, which might sound a bit - hm - rude. Nothing to blame for , it's just a different way of thinking... I think it's quite natural that you buy more books from an author who's sympathetic to you, but I don't really like the idea of doing the opposite - unless you have a very good reason for it. Zuzana ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] New Topics-- please!!!!!
Hello Ladies and Gentlemen, Anyone want to talk about costume and clothing? Hi Kass-- Nice to see you here! Anyone have any recommendations for costume in and around Florence? I am thinking of side trips for the Janet Arnold Conference in November. Monica Spence ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own
We realize we won't make a dent in your sales. We are just stating that yes, how we feel about an author can influence whether or not we will buy that particular author's books. Just our humble opinion, which I realize doesn't mean anything to you. But it does matter to some of us. And no, we are not the ones on a power trip. --- On Mon, 4/28/08, Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, April 28, 2008, 1:42 PM To deflate your little power trip, guys, there have to be thousands of people in an audience to even make a dent or have any influence on book sales at all. I don't even know that many from e-mail lists, let alone that many who dislike me. It may be fun to run around thinking that what you personally do can make or break someone's business, but it's sheer illusion. And there is no reason why I personally should care what you think. Fran Anne Moeller wrote: Well said! Anne -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shirley Hobbs Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:51 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own From: Lavolta Press [EMAIL PROTECTED] People seriously interested in research do not buy or read a book based on whether they know or like the author. U, yes they do. I consider myself a serious researcher. I also will not buy any of your books. There is enough information out there from other authors that I seriously doubt I will ever miss your information. I think what you do is wonderful, but your attitude really turns people off. I know this discussion has taken place many times before and you have made it plain that you don't care. That's fine. But there are lots of us out here that DO care! And we matter also. Cactus Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1401 - Release Date: 4/28/2008 7:18 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1401 - Release Date: 4/28/2008 7:18 AM ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please!!!!!
Hi Monica, Thanks for the warm welcome! Can we talk about flat-bottomed armholes? I'm totally on about flat-bottomed armholes. Kass http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/ Looking for the perfect gift for the RH fan on your list? Try a RH Gift Certificate http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/index.php?s=c=123d=160e=f=g=w=21 q=1p=360r=Y . They never expire! http://reconstructinghistory.com http://community.livejournal.com/rh_community/ http://kass-rants.livejournal.com http://www.reconstructinghistory.blogspot.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of monica spence Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:00 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] New Topics-- please! Hello Ladies and Gentlemen, Anyone want to talk about costume and clothing? Hi Kass-- Nice to see you here! Anyone have any recommendations for costume in and around Florence? I am thinking of side trips for the Janet Arnold Conference in November. Monica Spence ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] books and resources
Kathleen - sounds like you've had quite an amazing journey! I'm impressed! I love going to the period magazines also and like to compare them to photographs of the matching timeframe to see how women interpreted the fashion plates into real outfits. Plus viewing websites that have some actual garments. Putting all this information together and coming up with an outfit for myself is the fun part. There's lots of information out there, we just have to know where to find it! Shirley --- On Mon, 4/28/08, R Lloyd Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: R Lloyd Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] books and resources To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Monday, April 28, 2008, 2:10 PM OK you H-Costume folk, if you will take one more reflection on Books/Resources from a recently retired costumer,.. When I began my craft nearly 50 years ago, I soon found that there were few books or resources for period costuming available from my local library or even the college library and bookstore. An early acquisition was a slim how-to volume by Jonston that based all her 2000 years of period design for the making on a man’s PJ pattern and a woman’s 4 piece dress pattern. Size was of no consideration. She even provided approximate yardage for the work-up for S-M-L. I thought this was great. To enlarge the reality aspects, I spent days in the libraries and museums studying the other details that would bring my primitive designs closer to the reality of the occasion at hand. Honing my hand/eye skills using the basic Jonston method, I was soon finding that I could look at a picture and dissect the 2D design into the necessary shapes that would recreate the fashion before me. With an indication of size, I could even do a lot of the cutting free handed using my tape measure and a vision of the shape necessary to get the right draping. Wow. I was on my way… I was given the one volume edition of Davernport, discovered Koehler, Barton, Evans, Laver, the Cunningtons and Gorseline. Non was perfect but each added something of value, good or bad, to my self education toward the craft of costuming About 5 years into my new career, and many shows later, I encountered Arnold for the first time and was bowled over by the concept and scholarship she was doing and this raised the bar somewhat for me toward becoming more scientific in my own scholarship and craft. On first observation, I found that I had solved many of my design problems in the very same way that she had determined by firsthand observation, and this gave me an affirmation and encouragement that I was going about my costume production in somewhat the right manner. Also, about this time, I encountered Ann Hollander’s Seeing Through Clothes that had a profound influence on me concerning the facts of perception and problems of replication when interpreting clothing and costume from the past. Following some of her ideas, I began to look for obscure costume books that might have been on the cutting edge of what was known or perceived as costume in and of its own time period. Thus began my significant collection of Godey’s, Peterson’s, Arthur’s; The Story of Clothes by Agnes Allen, a four volume set of English Costume by Dion Clayton Calthrope, Costumes and Scenery for Amateurs, Constance Darcy Mackay; Costume Fanciful, Historical and Theatrical compiled by Mrs. Aria; Mrs. Earle’s,Wilton’s, Laver…for just a few. Each is valued for the view points given and taken of how they understood what Historical costuming meant for their own time. In the early 1990s, my husband introduced me to the wonderful new world of H-costume. For the very first time I felt connected to a host of new friends who were doing for joy or livelihood what I was doing…who knew what the problems were and were willing to share solutions. It is hard to imagine interpreting the styles and clothing of the past without them. Eons later, we have the wonderful Library that Penny is developing, Robin’s Medieval studies, Fran’s de-ciphers of 19th C pattern making, the various Shep reprints. Melanie’s patterns, Bjarne’s wonderful and inspiring embroideries, Lorena’s patterns and embroideries; pictoral work of Sally Keene. The compilations and other resource material by Boumgarten Bissonet, Drea and such…all a very rich heritage for the present and for years to come. Maybe even some of this work will strike those readers and do-ers of costume craft and history as outdated or uninformed but for the present, this is what we have. Rejoice! Kathleen Mitchell___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please!!!!!
Anyone have any recommendations for costume in and around Florence? I am thinking of side trips for the Janet Arnold Conference in November. No, but I'm planning on being there and would love to see a friendly face! Emma ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please!!!!!
I know nothing about them. Thanks for the links! Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kass McGann Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:06 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please! Hi Monica, Thanks for the warm welcome! Can we talk about flat-bottomed armholes? I'm totally on about flat-bottomed armholes. Kass http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/ Looking for the perfect gift for the RH fan on your list? Try a RH Gift Certificate http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/index.php?s=c=123d=160e=f=g=w=21 q=1p=360r=Y . They never expire! http://reconstructinghistory.com http://community.livejournal.com/rh_community/ http://kass-rants.livejournal.com http://www.reconstructinghistory.blogspot.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of monica spence Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:00 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] New Topics-- please! Hello Ladies and Gentlemen, Anyone want to talk about costume and clothing? Hi Kass-- Nice to see you here! Anyone have any recommendations for costume in and around Florence? I am thinking of side trips for the Janet Arnold Conference in November. Monica Spence ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please!!!!!
The new Civil War era pattern numbers from Simplicity are 2881, 2887 and 2890. Does anyone on the list know if Martha McCain is going to have new patterns for Simplicity. Last I heard, she was working on 18th century patterns. Is that correct? Cindy Abel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of monica spence Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 5:23 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please! I know nothing about them. Thanks for the links! Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kass McGann Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:06 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please! Hi Monica, Thanks for the warm welcome! Can we talk about flat-bottomed armholes? I'm totally on about flat-bottomed armholes. Kass http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/ Looking for the perfect gift for the RH fan on your list? Try a RH Gift Certificate http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/index.php?s=c=123d=160e=f=g=; w=21 q=1p=360r=Y . They never expire! http://reconstructinghistory.com http://community.livejournal.com/rh_community/ http://kass-rants.livejournal.com http://www.reconstructinghistory.blogspot.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of monica spence Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:00 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] New Topics-- please! Hello Ladies and Gentlemen, Anyone want to talk about costume and clothing? Hi Kass-- Nice to see you here! Anyone have any recommendations for costume in and around Florence? I am thinking of side trips for the Janet Arnold Conference in November. Monica Spence ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please!!!!!
I was referring to the discussion about the 15th century armholes as illustrated in Houston and the Jeu de Hache pictures. They just make so much sense to me! Kass http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of monica spence Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:23 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please! I know nothing about them. Thanks for the links! Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kass McGann Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:06 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please! Hi Monica, Thanks for the warm welcome! Can we talk about flat-bottomed armholes? I'm totally on about flat-bottomed armholes. Kass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please!!!!!
On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 5:35 PM, Kass McGann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was referring to the discussion about the 15th century armholes as illustrated in Houston and the Jeu de Hache pictures. They just make so much sense to me! Kass http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/ Not surprised to hear that, since they've always reminded me of the Moy Bog gown's sleeves. Not quite the same thing, but if you can build one, you can build the other! -E House ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] flat bottomed holes
Flat bottomed armhole make the rocking world go round! Apologies to Freddie Mercury -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of monica spence Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:23 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please! I know nothing about them. Thanks for the links! Monica -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kass McGann Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:06 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please! Hi Monica, Thanks for the warm welcome! Can we talk about flat-bottomed armholes? I'm totally on about flat-bottomed armholes. Kass http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/ Looking for the perfect gift for the RH fan on your list? Try a RH Gift Certificate http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/index.php?s=c=123d=160e=f=g=w=21 q=1p=360r=Y . They never expire! http://reconstructinghistory.com http://community.livejournal.com/rh_community/ http://kass-rants.livejournal.com http://www.reconstructinghistory.blogspot.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of monica spence Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:00 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] New Topics-- please! Hello Ladies and Gentlemen, Anyone want to talk about costume and clothing? Hi Kass-- Nice to see you here! Anyone have any recommendations for costume in and around Florence? I am thinking of side trips for the Janet Arnold Conference in November. Monica Spence ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please!!!!!
Anybody up for a roll call to see who from the h-cost list will be in Florence for the conference? Monica Spence, New York City (actually Long Island, but I teach in NYC) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:17 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please! Anyone have any recommendations for costume in and around Florence? I am thinking of side trips for the Janet Arnold Conference in November. No, but I'm planning on being there and would love to see a friendly face! Emma ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Flat Bottomed Armholes WAS: New Topics-- please!!!!!
Those are very interesting observations Kass. I just love that kind of experimental investigation. Now I will have to think about the progression from sleeveless to sleeved - where/when did the style become less driven by fabric limitations and more driven by fit and style (If I remember correctly the Shinrone gown sleeve is just another rectangle sewn in the top of the armscye and ties around the wrist?? Monica, I thought I was talking about new topics :) Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please!!!!!
Not surprised to hear that, since they've always reminded me of the Moy Bog gown's sleeves. Not quite the same thing, but if you can build one, you can build the other! -E House Yes! Precisely, E. They're something like the Moy Gown's armholes. And they're A LOT like the Shinrone Gown and Dungiven Jacket's armholes. Matter of fact, the Dungiven Jacket's armhole would look exactly like that picture by Gerard David if you didn't cut away the little bit at the bottom. Kass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] flat bottomed holes
Ron! You're in my head! That's been playing on a continuous loop in my brain since I typed it! LOL Kass http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/ Looking for the perfect gift for the RH fan on your list? Try a RH Gift Certificate http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/index.php?s=c=123d=160e=f=g=w=21 q=1p=360r=Y . They never expire! http://reconstructinghistory.com http://community.livejournal.com/rh_community/ http://kass-rants.livejournal.com http://www.reconstructinghistory.blogspot.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ron Carnegie Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:51 PM To: 'Historical Costume' Subject: Re: [h-cost] flat bottomed holes Flat bottomed armhole make the rocking world go round! Apologies to Freddie Mercury ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Flat Bottomed Armholes WAS: New Topics-- please!!!!!
Good thought process, Saragrace! You're right about the Shinrone Gown sleeve -- it really has very little to do with the armhole at all since it's attached to the back of the garment by means of a gore. But the armhole is created by cutting straight across, parallel to the floor, and folding that fabric inside to make a kind of self-lining rather than discarding it. (The same lining technique is done at the bottom of the bodice as well and these two linings meet at the bottom of the shoulder strap.) The Dungiven Jacket, however, is the one that really bears a resemblance to the flat-bottomed armholes in these pictures. The fabric in the armhole is cut down the center and those pieces fold out to make shoulder wings on the garment. The sleeves actually attach to a pinch of fabric inside this, not to any cut edges. Neat, huh? The thing that fascinates me is that these garments are late 16th century -- contemporary with many of the garments Janet Arnold patterned in PoF. And yet all of those have armholes cut in what I would term the modern shape. To me, this is evidence of a difference in the way that the (guild) tailors of the rich and the (amateur? or just rural?) tailors of the poor cut their clothing. Kass http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Saragrace Knauf Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:51 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Flat Bottomed Armholes WAS: New Topics-- please! Those are very interesting observations Kass. I just love that kind of experimental investigation. Now I will have to think about the progression from sleeveless to sleeved - where/when did the style become less driven by fabric limitations and more driven by fit and style (If I remember correctly the Shinrone gown sleeve is just another rectangle sewn in the top of the armscye and ties around the wrist?? Monica, I thought I was talking about new topics :) Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Bruegel sleeve construction
I don't remember a detailed treatment of the David gown... though I think it may be referenced somewhere on Drea's site (or we talked about it in her first Costume Classroom offering on women's dress, back in 2001...?). If you mean the Bruegel sleeve, we discussed this off-and-on for several years on the RenCostumer list [from at least 2002 through the first half of 2005]. Unfortunately, that list has gone dormant and when I search for the old personal websites where people had posted their findings, I only get junk. If there are any other former RenCostumers on this list, they might remember more about it. Suzanne On Apr 28, 2008, at 11:19 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Saragrace Knauf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: April 28, 2008 10:51:03 AM CDT To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] Sleeve construction: Was Detroit Inst Art - Problems Where was this from again. Got the link to work- Thanks. When studying to make my model of these (Breughel) jackets, I interpreted the sleeve to actually set into an arm hole. I see that it could also be interpreted without. I just went on the majority rules - even within this painting the similar fashion is shown with a round armhole on women's clothes. Most of the men's also are set into a round hole. Now I gotta get my hands on a good copy of the Deposition .. by Gerard David.Curious about the no waist seam... In my memory, someone had done a pretty detailed evaluation of this gown, or at least the issue on a website somewhereanyone remember?Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Tailoring Revolution Was: Flat Bottomed Armholes
In very, very general terms the phenomenon you are looking at is known as the tailoring revolution. It started roughly 1350s with the advent of the button, in the higher echelons of society and as most fashion/garment techniques moved down. The flat bottom armhole that we are talking about is an interesting study, not so frequently seen in higher society - more readily seen in lower levels of society and the working class. And now it is far too late for me to write about this... must go sleep and then think more before I make the whole thing into a horrid muddle. Mari On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Saragrace Knauf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Those are very interesting observations Kass. I just love that kind of experimental investigation. Now I will have to think about the progression from sleeveless to sleeved - where/when did the style become less driven by fabric limitations and more driven by fit and style (If I remember correctly the Shinrone gown sleeve is just another rectangle sewn in the top of the armscye and ties around the wrist?? Monica, I thought I was talking about new topics :) Sg ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Another where did this come from?
Okay now - no cringing. I have always been curious about a quote and a picture diagram in Kohler. http://saragrace.us/images/Misc/kohlerpleats12.pdf We are all familiar now with the style of dress depicted in the first image - (Thanks Myra and Heather!)What I am curious about is the highlighted text. He says If still more width were desired additional gussets were inserted at the sides and back. These reached up to the hips. This is a link to a picture which shows the type of gussets I think he means - (Hmm, except it goes up further than the hips) I am thinking he doesn't mean the triangular gussets we are all familiar with.http://heatherspages.net/Nuremberg%20dress/nuremberg%20images/tafel%2074a.jpg What I am wondering, is if what he means by side gussets is what you see in the picture on the second page. This comes supposedly from the 16th century...I've never seen this side gusset pleating in a painting. Has anyone else? I'd love to know what painting the i! llustration is based on. Any clue?? Saragrace P.S. Sorry for the cross posts - had to get this to the German Ren folks too. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Flat bottomed (and other) armholes
Sure, I'll chat this with you after I have a chance to read your full blog post. Is there any chance at all that the upper classes might have used a similar flattened opening? I've found the curved armholes found in almost every 16th c. pattern/drafting a nightmare to fit on my wonky shoulders Allison T. On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 9:28 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Behalf Of Kass McGann Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 6:06 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] New Topics-- please! Hi Monica, Thanks for the warm welcome! Can we talk about flat-bottomed armholes? I'm totally on about flat-bottomed armholes. Kass http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/ Looking for the perfect gift for the RH fan on your list? Try a RH Gift Certificate http://www.reconstructinghistory.com/index.php?s=c=123d=160e=f=g=w=21 q=1p=360r=Y . They never expire! http://reconstructinghistory.com http://community.livejournal.com/rh_community/ http://kass-rants.livejournal.com http://www.reconstructinghistory.blogspot.com/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Florence
I'll be one of the people going to the Janet Arnold symposium in Florence. There's been a separate Yahoo Groups mailing list set up for people going (or, indeed, any costume buffs that travel) so we can coordinate our activities: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Traveling4Costumers/ Allison T. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] books (tudor/elizabethan era), sewing and pattern advice
I must admit that I love all the books you have mentioned with the addition of A Tailor's Manuel from 1589 by Juan Alcega, translation by Ruth Bean. I did manage to gather up all the rest of the books available from David Brown books and they are spoken for or sold. However, I would be surprised if there aren't some available from SCA booksellers (I'm not one, I just love this particular book and want people to have it). There might also be perfect ones available from Ruth Bean (here on H-Costume) in England. Once I figured out what in the world was going on with these original patterns, it's a book that I'd run into the flames to rescue along with Queen Elizabeth's Closet and Dress in the Court of Henry VIII. I'd probably burn to death because I'd keep trying to cram in one more book! Seriously, if you can get a copy of Alcega, as it's known in the SCA at least, I highly recommend it. The clothing I've made from it showed that the patterns are actually to scale, not just drawings of what the pattern piece should look like. Not to put the Tudor Tailor down, but I think I'd prefer the Alcega to it just because of the number of patterns. Then again, these are Spanish clothes of the middle class; however Spain was a lot like the Paris of its time as far as clothing was concerned in the 16th century. If you do go into things as a Pro. Be prepared to do a lot of figuring and planning first. One of the most common errors people make is pricing their time too cheaply. Materials can be costly. Trim can be costly (I have gowns where the trim cost more than the fabric and other items combined!), but you must value your time in a professional manner. You also have to treat it as a business. Business owners have friends, but they can't afford to sell something at cost very often. It can be hard to tell your best friend that the wedding dress she has drooled over all her life is going to cost her XXX amount if you do it. As an Amateur I can afford to spend time embroidering, pearling and generally making something gorgeous for a friend, but I have a real job that supports my hobby :-) Wanda My question, if you could use 3 books for this (these) eras, which would you buy? The ones I have in my cart are Jane Arnold's Patterns of Fashion 1560-1620, as well as her 1660-1860, Jean Hunnisett's _Period Costume for Stage and Screen, Patterns for Women's dress 1500-1800, The Tudor Tailor by Ninya Mikhaila, and Costume Close Up: Clothing Construction and Pattern, 1750-1790 - Linda Baumgarten. I also have a book called Fine Machine Sewing and Susan Khalje's Bridal Coutoure book. Do you have any other suggestions? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] How Many Costume Books/Magazines/Photos Do You Own
Subject: Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: About how many costume/fashion related books or magazines do you own? I feel like I should start with: My name is Cynthia Barnes and I'm a costume addict. I've got 350+ books on sewing, fashion, then there's vintage 19th c fashion journals, some bound some not. Closely related are the etiquette, housekeeping dance manuals. What was the first one you purchased? Where did you purchase it? I dont remember. What was your most recent purchase? Oh a handful. I was at CostumeCon this afternoon. Beginner's Blackwork is the most different thing for me. Then I bought some toupee clips. I went to a wig lecture found out this morning that you can sew these clips to falls switches then anchor them in your hair. Neat! I'm looking forward to trying these. This morning, my Jane Seymour necklace by Pewter Replicas arrived from the UK. I'm wearing it! best deal... I have 70+ 19th c hand-colored fashion plates; most were purchased in Europe at teeny-tiny book ephemera dealers' shops in obscure areas. About how many period photographs do you own just for the costuming? 400+ 19th c photographs. What book or magazine is your most treasured...if your house was on fire, you would take it with you. I'd burn to death rescuing treasures and throwing them out the window to save them from peril. What is the worse costume book that you own? None! Just donated them for a nice tax deduction. Do you have a room devoted to your collection? Double closet, 2 armoires, and 1/2 the garage. When did you start collecting? Dressups? Oh maybe age 5 or 6. I had the biggest collection in the neighborhood. Hats? Jewelry? Oh, once you have 2-3 of anything, people assume it's a collection and you get more. My aunts are particularly to blame for encouragement. Do you consider your collection for business or pleasure? I think if it more like a dragon's hoard. How many sewing machines do you own? What types and age? Six. All working. 1897 portable cast-iron hand-cranked machine in it's wooden case with lots of nifty special-purpose feet, 1920s treadle converted to electric in the late 20s, the turquoise 1950s cabinet machine operated by knee instead of footpedal, a fantastic 1961 Kenmore that sews *anything* including kevlar, Viking embroidery machine, Babylock self-threading serger, and a hand-carved wooded flax(?) spindle because it was mechanically interesting. How many sewing patterns do you own? Two file cabinets of patterns. Do books of patterns count like the RL Shep reprints? How 'bout the ones in the bound journals like Godey's Ladies Book? I dunno. Conservatively: I'd say lots. I'm so glad we have these Costumers Anonymous meetings. I dont have a problem I can quit anytime. --cin Cynthia Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] FROCK COAT PATTERNS
Hi, All. Where or from whom do I get the best buy for the money of multi-sized frock coat patterns? If you remember, I'm a small stage costume designer and wish to make five frock coats for our closet, sizes XS-XL. We don't have much money, ever! and I don't want to draft these myself as I don't have newer standard sizes for men. Also a tip on the suppliers of light weight hard finish wool blends would be appreciated. Thank you for your suggestions, Audy. in the high boonies of Central Texas PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Speed Regency? (was: New Topics-- please!!!!!)
Hello! Lurker here, jumping in with a new topic since such were asked for. I have two questions regarding the airspeed velocity of a relatively unembellished Regency* gown c. 1805-1810: :-) 1. Can anyone opine as to how many seamstress-hours it would have taken an early-19c dressmaker's workshop to make a fashionable gown? Naturally the length of time would vary with the materials, the ornamentation of the gown, and how easy or difficult a particular customer might be to fit. The only clue I have is from the second series of Poldark, in which I vaguely remember Caroline telling Demelza that her Georgian gown, though a very fine one, will not do for London in 1799, and that the London dressmakers have partly made- up gowns that can be fitted to a customer in four-and-twenty hours. (I assume this means a one-day turnaround, but not necessarily that the apprentices would have been burning candles around the clock to complete a gown... or would they?) 2. As a practical matter, do any of you have tips to simplify and/or speed up the construction of a Regency gown? I tried to build one for a friend, using a commercial pattern from one of the Big Three (I forget which one, but the bodice is very narrow and the melon sleeves are huge and require underlining). That dress fought me every step of the way. It didn't help that I was using a lovely but very slippery China silk. I've never finished the blasted thing -- it hangs, half-put-together, in my closet, reproaching me. (Luckily for me, my friend is now too preoccupied with her new baby to be worried about not having anything to wear to a Regency dance!) I want to try again with some cotton lawn or other reasonably well-behaved fabric and a different pattern, but I want to have some confidence that I can actually finish the project. Any sage advice? *to be pedantic, I'll just point out here that I'm using the term in the dressmaking sense - the actual English Regency was, of course, from 1811-1820... Thanks! Mary Llewellyn ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] FROCK COAT PATTERNS
At Costume Con this last weekend, we were talking and someone said the pattern from Laughing Moon Patterns was good. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of AVCHASE Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 8:18 PM To: h-costume posts Subject: [h-cost] FROCK COAT PATTERNS Hi, All. Where or from whom do I get the best buy for the money of multi-sized frock coat patterns? If you remember, I'm a small stage costume designer and wish to make five frock coats for our closet, sizes XS-XL. We don't have much money, ever! and I don't want to draft these myself as I don't have newer standard sizes for men. Also a tip on the suppliers of light weight hard finish wool blends would be appreciated. Thank you for your suggestions, Audy. in the high boonies of Central Texas PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
