[h-cost] Update on split drawers (fascinating, I know...)
On the slim chance that anyone is following along... Yes, we found another pair of split drawers in the the vast Reed Homestead (Townsend Historical Society) collection. They definitely belonged to an adult, and like the child-sized pair... well worn and heavily mended. --- On Thu, 8/11/11, WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com wrote: Re: drawers So far, we have found one pair of split drawers in the vast attic-sized pile, er... collection. Definitely worn by a child. Were they actually worn by grown women? Dede ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Back at the Reed Homestead... we are moving on to the next pile -- stacks and stacks of shirt-like garments with no closures (other than a few with ties at the neck). We hired a woman in 1995 to start pulling clothing literally out of garbage bags and start cataloging. (Sadly, we still have pieces from 1809 still in garbage bags -- yes, the black plastic kind.) She called these shirt-like garments sacques and this is want she wrote about them... ...I would like someone after me to write the word sacque which is what we're going to use for the generic term. A sacque is a garment which hangs from the shoulder down without interruption, without darts, without a waist seam, so a man's sacque coat is one that was not cut in at the waist. And that seems to be a generic form for this style if garment, no matter how it's being used, but as I said before and you got on the VCR I think, these can be used as a working garment with a skirt, held in place with an apron. They can be used as a short nightgown for hot weather and when somebody is ill and is using a bedpan. They can be used over your dress when you're doing your hair and that's probably about it. Oh, yes, and the other thing is for maternity, when it's an expandable top for when you're pregnant and obviously can be used for nursing as well. And nobody has as many as you have. We have attempted to locate information about this type of garment, but clearly we're looking in the wrong places because we're coming up empty. We can find saques certainly but they don't look like ours. Any ideas? Dede O'Hair ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Update on split drawers (fascinating, I know...)
Yeah knowsome things just make sense. Ever try to go potty in a long voluminous skirt? Hold skirt up move Indies out of way, keep you balance, aim. Im thinking split drawer were worn a LOT by women who had only a few pair and wore them out, hence not too many examples around like the rich women who could afford lots and so stuff was actually around to be found in there completeness century or More later. people put practiale things on children to make their lives easier. Im not surprised that a woman working to keep her household gong with kids a husband an possible a kitten garden, would have very practical solutions for very real everyday problems. from a woman who has been called a bluejeans level researcher and is proud of it. -Original Message- Date: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 10:57:53 am To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com Subject: [h-cost] Update on split drawers (fascinating, I know...) On the slim chance that anyone is following along... Yes, we found another pair of split drawers in the the vast Reed Homestead (Townsend Historical Society) collection. They definitely belonged to an adult, and like the child-sized pair... well worn and heavily mended. --- On Thu, 8/11/11, WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com wrote: Re: drawers So far, we have found one pair of split drawers in the vast attic-sized pile, er... collection. Definitely worn by a child. Were they actually worn by grown women? Dede ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Best thing would be if you could post a photo of one or two of these garments (spread out flat would be sufficient). From the description you quoted, these sound like just...shirts. Or shifts. I don't think sacque is a term used for these garments either in that time period or modernly...except that she refers to a man's sacque coat though I don't see how that relates to the garments described thereafter. The generic dictionary definition for sacque is a woman's full loose hip-length jacket (dictionary.com) and what she describes doesn't fit that definition. What is the VCR? Claudine From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:29 AM Subject: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress) Back at the Reed Homestead... we are moving on to the next pile -- stacks and stacks of shirt-like garments with no closures (other than a few with ties at the neck). We hired a woman in 1995 to start pulling clothing literally out of garbage bags and start cataloging. (Sadly, we still have pieces from 1809 still in garbage bags -- yes, the black plastic kind.) She called these shirt-like garments sacques and this is want she wrote about them... ...I would like someone after me to write the word sacque which is what we're going to use for the generic term. A sacque is a garment which hangs from the shoulder down without interruption, without darts, without a waist seam, so a man's sacque coat is one that was not cut in at the waist. And that seems to be a generic form for this style if garment, no matter how it's being used, but as I said before and you got on the VCR I think, these can be used as a working garment with a skirt, held in place with an apron. They can be used as a short nightgown for hot weather and when somebody is ill and is using a bedpan. They can be used over your dress when you're doing your hair and that's probably about it. Oh, yes, and the other thing is for maternity, when it's an expandable top for when you're pregnant and obviously can be used for nursing as well. And nobody has as many as you have. We have attempted to locate information about this type of garment, but clearly we're looking in the wrong places because we're coming up empty. We can find saques certainly but they don't look like ours. Any ideas? Dede O'Hair ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Garments at the Reed Homestead
Dede, is there anywhere you can post some pictures of the garments you're looking at? Maybe a Facebook page or Flickr? Martha ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Hi Dede, I don't know if it helps at all, but I have a couple of very old family garments that have notes with them calling them sacques. They date across a certain spectrum: one to the 1890s, the others to a scattering of years between 1910 and the early 1980s (the last being one I preserved from when my son was born). They are are either drawstring-hemmed baby nighties, longer than most babies would be tall and still be able to fit the arms, chest and shoulders, or they are what were called kimonos when I was a baby in the 1950s: a open-front garment with ties, that was usually put on a baby over diapers and plastic pants after a bath, to keep back and arms warm. My mother, who was born in Germany in 1933, routinely referred to any sort of baby garment along those lines as a sacque. I've not seen them (outside of Revy War period short gown-types of things) for adults, but can see where they would be very useful in the situations which your helpful lady described. I don't know if that helps any with the mystery... but for whatever it might be worth, the family sacques I have in baby size are pretty much cut the exact same way she describes those adult garments, except for the drawstring bag-up-the-baby thing that was probably worn by my grandmother when she was a baby Cheers, Meli -- Back at the Reed Homestead... we are moving on to the next pile -- stacks and stacks of shirt-like garments with no closures (other than a few with ties at the neck). We hired a woman in 1995 to start pulling clothing literally out of garbage bags and start cataloging. (Sadly, we still have pieces from 1809 still in garbage bags -- yes, the black plastic kind.)? She called these shirt-like garments sacques and this is want she wrote about them... ...I would like someone after me to write the word sacque which is what we're going to use for the generic term.? A sacque is a garment which hangs from the shoulder down without interruption, without darts, without a waist seam, so a man's sacque coat is one that was not cut in at the waist.? And that seems to be a generic form for this style if garment, no matter how it's being used, but as I said before and you got on the VCR I think, these can be used as a working garment with a skirt, held in place with an apron.? They can be used as a short nightgown for hot weather and when somebody is ill and is using a bedpan.? They can be used over your dress when you're doing your hair and that's probably about it.? Oh, yes, and the other thing is for maternity, when it's an expandable top for when you're pregnant and obviously can be used for nursing as well.? And nobody has as many as you have. We have attempted to locate information about this type of garment, but clearly we're looking in the wrong places because we're coming up empty. We can find saques certainly but they don't look like ours. Any ideas? Dede O'Hair ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
In later years the word sacque comes up freqently in the french fashion journals I have. Most often under the term dressing sacque or combing sacque. From the illustrations that are in the journals the dressing sacque is a long loose gown that falls from the shoulders, meant to be worn after undergarments are put on - but before the actual dress or other outer garment was put on. One supposes that if you were puttering around in your bedroom before finishing dressing - you'd slip one of these on. In the pictures that I looked at, they were all very plain and without embellishment - as opposed to dressing gowns which are highly embellished in the illustrations. The combing sacque is a garment that is only waist-length, and fastenes at the center front neckline. These are mostly plain, but sometimes have a little inserted lace or a yoke. According to the descriptions, they were meant to be put on after you were dressed, and while you were combing or brushing your hair. Their purpose seems to be to prevent shed hair from ending up on the clothing you were wearing out in public. I suspect that this usage (1890 - 1903) is probably derived from your older garments. Janyce Hill Vintage Pattern Lending Library www.vpll.org On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Laura Rubin rubin.lau...@gmail.comwrote: The first thing that comes to mind is actually the term smock, in the sense of a British farmer's smock - the overgarment that protects their normal clothes from rough work. Any chance you could post a picture for us to look at? -Laura Message: 12 Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:29:50 -0700 (PDT) From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress) Message-ID: 1316014190.86497.yahoomailclas...@web130224.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Back at the Reed Homestead... we are moving on to the next pile -- stacks and stacks of shirt-like garments with no closures (other than a few with ties at the neck). We hired a woman in 1995 to start pulling clothing literally out of garbage bags and start cataloging. (Sadly, we still have pieces from 1809 still in garbage bags -- yes, the black plastic kind.)? She called these shirt-like garments sacques and this is want she wrote about them... ...I would like someone after me to write the word sacque which is what we're going to use for the generic term.? A sacque is a garment which hangs from the shoulder down without interruption, without darts, without a waist seam, so a man's sacque coat is one that was not cut in at the waist.? And that seems to be a generic form for this style if garment, no matter how it's being used, but as I said before and you got on the VCR I think, these can be used as a working garment with a skirt, held in place with an apron.? They can be used as a short nightgown for hot weather and when somebody is ill and is using a bedpan.? They can be used over your dress when you're doing your hair and that's probably about it.? Oh, yes, and the other thing is for maternity, when it's an expandable top for when you're pregnant and obviously can be used for nursing as well.? And nobody has as many as you have. We have attempted to locate information about this type of garment, but clearly we're looking in the wrong places because we're coming up empty. We can find saques certainly but they don't look like ours. Any ideas? Dede O'Hair ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Movie Costume Question: McGonagall's Yule Ensemble
Hi folks, Has anyone here ever made Professor McGonagall's outfit from Goblet of Fire, the Yule Ball scene? Forever ago I saw some pics from an exhibition where someone had photographed the over-gown, but I can't now find them. I'm trying to put together resources to recreate the ensemble as closely as possible and at the moment am trying to figure out what fabrics. It looks as if the over-robe is a sort of deep olive green shading toward more pine-ish colours, and that the fabric is partly horizontal stripes (or small tucks, which would rock for coolness factor!) and partly that pre-tucked doupioni I see in the stores from time to time, with a diamond pattern. How far off base am I? Online there's a surprising lack of close-up pics of her in those scenes, almost always from a distance. Also, if anyone has thoughts on which black undergown folks think she's wearing underneath, and how one would go about making those astonishing stand-up shoulders on the overgown... I would love to hear it. :) Fortunately I have a year before the outfit is needed, but Chief Procrastinator to the Emperor as I am, I really want to get started sooner rather than later A friend dared me to make her undergarments either plaid or trimmed in plaid, but I'm not sure I'd want to annoy a witch of her skill with such daring lol Cheers, Meli ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Miss Universe Top Ten Evening Gowns
Once upon a time those in Texas found a recipe that got their woman chosen. One ingredient was the rhinestone bodice. So, I think folks just keep on going with what worked the last time with a little variation. Note: Those do not look like what I saw for evening wear. They appear to be what won them the chance to be in San Paulo but I could be wrong. De -Original Message- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-cviXg7-UE http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-cviXg7-UEfeature=related feature=related When are designers going to design something new? I remember when I was excited to see the new looks in these contests. Penny Ladnier, owner ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Update on split drawers (fascinating, I know...)
I have seen a pair in one of the online museum sites. As 1800s is not my focus I do not have it saved somewhere. De -Original Message- Yes, we found another pair of split drawers in the the vast Reed Homestead (Townsend Historical Society) collection. They definitely belonged to an adult, and like the child-sized pair... well worn and heavily mended. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Sacque is just French for sack, and was merely spelled differently when more elegance was wanted. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, it was a general term describing a loose-fitting garment, whether a man's sack coat, a woman's sacque paletot, a woman's dressing sacque/sack, and so on. If the term was used alone, rather than as an adjective, eople were expected to know from context what kind of sacque/sack was being referred to. Generally, the degree of embellishment of dressing sacks, or any other lingerie garment, depended largely on the taste and budget of the wearer. Dressing saques were often highly embellished, and were worn as a kind of house jacket over a petticoat, within the family, in the morning before the woman got fully dressed and ready to meet the public. There is a garment that looks like a hip-length nightgown, sometimes very prettily trimmed, that appears fairly often in Victorian fashion magazines. I have only seen it illustrated flat on a page, not as worn with other garments. I am not entirely sure, offhand, what it is for. It might be a short nightgown, and it might be another kind of dressing sack. It might even be that the Victorians were still sometimes going to bed in their chemises and adding a kind of jacket with a higher neck and long sleeves as a top layer, which was common in the early 19th century. However, without a picture, it's impossible to what the garment under discussion actually is. Fran Lavolta Press www.lavoltapress.com www.facebook.com/LavoltaPress On 9/14/2011 11:29 AM, Janyce Hill wrote: In later years the word sacque comes up freqently in the french fashion journals I have. Most often under the term dressing sacque or combing sacque. From the illustrations that are in the journals the dressing sacque is a long loose gown that falls from the shoulders, meant to be worn after undergarments are put on - but before the actual dress or other outer garment was put on. One supposes that if you were puttering around in your bedroom before finishing dressing - you'd slip one of these on. In the pictures that I looked at, they were all very plain and without embellishment - as opposed to dressing gowns which are highly embellished in the illustrations. The combing sacque is a garment that is only waist-length, and fastenes at the center front neckline. These are mostly plain, but sometimes have a little inserted lace or a yoke. According to the descriptions, they were meant to be put on after you were dressed, and while you were combing or brushing your hair. Their purpose seems to be to prevent shed hair from ending up on the clothing you were wearing out in public. I suspect that this usage (1890 - 1903) is probably derived from your older garments. Janyce Hill Vintage Pattern Lending Library www.vpll.org On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Laura Rubinrubin.lau...@gmail.comwrote: The first thing that comes to mind is actually the term smock, in the sense of a British farmer's smock - the overgarment that protects their normal clothes from rough work. Any chance you could post a picture for us to look at? -Laura Message: 12 Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 08:29:50 -0700 (PDT) From: WorkroomButtons.comwestvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costumeh-cost...@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress) Message-ID: 1316014190.86497.yahoomailclas...@web130224.mail.mud.yahoo.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Back at the Reed Homestead... we are moving on to the next pile -- stacks and stacks of shirt-like garments with no closures (other than a few with ties at the neck). We hired a woman in 1995 to start pulling clothing literally out of garbage bags and start cataloging. (Sadly, we still have pieces from 1809 still in garbage bags -- yes, the black plastic kind.)? She called these shirt-like garments sacques and this is want she wrote about them... ...I would like someone after me to write the word sacque which is what we're going to use for the generic term.? A sacque is a garment which hangs from the shoulder down without interruption, without darts, without a waist seam, so a man's sacque coat is one that was not cut in at the waist.? And that seems to be a generic form for this style if garment, no matter how it's being used, but as I said before and you got on the VCR I think, these can be used as a working garment with a skirt, held in place with an apron.? They can be used as a short nightgown for hot weather and when somebody is ill and is using a bedpan.? They can be used over your dress when you're doing your hair and that's probably about it.? Oh, yes, and the other thing is for maternity, when it's an expandable top for when you're pregnant and obviously can be used for nursing as well.? And nobody has as many as you have. We have attempted to locate information about this type of garment, but clearly we're looking in the wrong places because we're
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Oh, and this is the kind of thing we find when we research sacque (hence NOT the dress): www.reconstructinghistory.com/assets/products/3237/product/RH821frontcover.jpg?1298667926 Dede ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
-Original Message- From: Janyce Hill vpll.librar...@gmail.com Sent: Sep 14, 2011 11:29 AM To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress) In later years the word sacque comes up freqently in the french fashion journals I have. Most often under the term dressing sacque or combing sacque. From the illustrations that are in the journals the dressing sacque is a long loose gown that falls from the shoulders, meant to be worn after undergarments are put on - but before the actual dress or other outer garment was put on. One supposes that if you were puttering around in your bedroom before finishing dressing - you'd slip one of these on. In the pictures that I looked at, they were all very plain and without embellishment - as opposed to dressing gowns which are highly embellished in the illustrations. The combing sacque is a garment that is only waist-length, and fastenes at the center front neckline. These are mostly plain, but sometimes have a little inserted lace or a yoke. According to the descriptions, they were meant to be put on after you were dressed, and while you were combing or brushing your hair. Their purpose seems to be to prevent shed hair from ending up on the clothing you were wearing out in public. I suspect that this usage (1890 - 1903) is probably derived from your older garments. Janyce Hill Vintage Pattern Lending Library www.vpll.org I don't offhand see any mention of what these sacques are made of. Are they white linen? If so, as a medievalist, of course my reflex would be to simply consider these as shirts, smocks or chemises -- the nearly universal innermost layer of medieval/renaissance underwear, and hence present in large quantities in most wardrobes. But I don't know enough about post-renaissance clothing to guess how late the fashion lasted for this type of undergarment. 0 Chris Laning | clan...@igc.org + Davis, California http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] split drawers
Victorian women NEEDED split drawers. They wore a long chemise over the top of the drawers, and a corset laced up tightly on top of that, so the only way to drop a penny was to have the drawers split. You just couldn't get at them to pull them down from the waist. Kim -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of WorkroomButtons.com Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:38 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Update on split drawers (fascinating, I know...) On the slim chance that anyone is following along... Yes, we found another pair of split drawers in the the vast Reed Homestead (Townsend Historical Society) collection. They definitely belonged to an adult, and like the child-sized pair... well worn and heavily mended. --- On Thu, 8/11/11, WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com wrote: Re: drawers So far, we have found one pair of split drawers in the vast attic-sized pile, er... collection. Definitely worn by a child. Were they actually worn by grown women? Dede ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Not the same. They are are not undergarments, they worn over the chemise/shift and petticoat. De -Original Message- I don't offhand see any mention of what these sacques are made of. Are they white linen? If so, as a medievalist, of course my reflex would be to simply consider these as shirts, smocks or chemises -- the nearly universal innermost layer of medieval/renaissance underwear, and hence present in large quantities in most wardrobes. But I don't know enough about post-renaissance clothing to guess how late the fashion lasted for this type of undergarment. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Movie Costume Question: McGonagall's Yule Ensemble
I actually had my nose 2 from that dress at the travel exhibit (Boston Museum of Science). No photos, of course, but I remember... pine-ish color (maybe overshot with something else?), with some kind of smocking -- it seemed almost random (but wasn't). Not much help, I know... Dede ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] split drawers
Okay, dumb question, but... why did they need drawers at all? Chemise, layers of petticoats, and long skirts -- everything totally obscured, so why bother with drawers? Dede O'Hair --- On Wed, 9/14/11, Kim Baird kba...@cableone.net wrote: Victorian women NEEDED split drawers. They wore a long chemise over the top of the drawers, and a corset laced up tightly on top of that, so the only way to drop a penny was to have the drawers split. You just couldn't get at them to pull them down from the waist. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Impressive research!.. Of all of them, this is probably the closest: http://ny-image3.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.256039843.jpg ...but the necks are rounded, and snug. They are also older than the pattern date. Thanks! Dede --- On Wed, 9/14/11, otsisto otsi...@socket.net wrote: Are you talking about something like these? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
The majority, at least, appear to be cotton and are hand sewn. Dede --- On Wed, 9/14/11, Chris Laning clan...@igc.org wrote: I don't offhand see any mention of what these sacques are made of. Are they white linen? If so, as a medievalist, of course my reflex would be to simply consider these as shirts, smocks or chemises -- the nearly universal innermost layer of medieval/renaissance underwear, and hence present in large quantities in most wardrobes. But I don't know enough about post-renaissance clothing to guess how late the fashion lasted for this type of undergarment. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] split drawers
You'll find drawers starting to creep into women's clothing starting in the 1840's and 50's. They really really started to become common when women started to wear cage crinolines in the later 1850's. With crinoline there were suddenly not as many layers right next to the body (nothing but the chemise and a single petticoat) and women probably started wearing them for modesty and comfort. By the time the crinoline fell from fashion they had become typical and women just continued to wear them. Maggie Halberg -Original Message- From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wed, Sep 14, 2011 4:36 pm Subject: Re: [h-cost] split drawers Okay, dumb question, but... why did they need drawers at all? Chemise, layers of petticoats, and long skirts -- everything totally obscured, so why bother with drawers? Dede O'Hair --- On Wed, 9/14/11, Kim Baird kba...@cableone.net wrote: Victorian women NEEDED split drawers. They wore a long chemise over the top of the drawers, and a corset laced up tightly on top of that, so the only way to drop a penny was to have the drawers split. You just couldn't get at them to pull them down from the waist. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] split drawers
At 12:59 PM 9/14/2011, you wrote: Victorian women NEEDED split drawers. They wore a long chemise over the top of the drawers, and a corset laced up tightly on top of that, so the only way to drop a penny was to have the drawers split. You just couldn't get at them to pull them down from the waist. Kim That's not necessarily so. (Gentlemen, please delete this message, only the ladies should read it.) When in my 1840s outfit for Sutter's Fort, I simply do not wear any bifurcated garments. With 5 layers (shift, 3 petticoats, and dress) between me and the outside world (and no inclination to do cartwheels), my modesty is safe. I find split drawers to be very uncomfortable as they never fit properly and caused me to get badly chaffed. So all I need to do is pick up all the layers and take care of business. Of course, later in the 19th century fashions were different, but until the cage crinoline, drawers were not necessary for modesty. Joan Jurancich joa...@surewest.net ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
I will attempt photos next Wednesday during our next scheduled sort the vast pile meeting. Assuming my teenager can teach me to use her digital camera by then... (yes, I am technology-impaired). Also, the lighting is terrible. Dede --- On Wed, 9/14/11, Lavolta Press f...@lavoltapress.com wrote: However, without a picture, it's impossible to what the garment under discussion actually is. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] split drawers
-Original Message- At 12:59 PM 9/14/2011, you wrote: Victorian women NEEDED split drawers. They wore a long chemise over the top of the drawers, and a corset laced up tightly on top of that, so the only way to drop a penny was to have the drawers split. You just couldn't get at them to pull them down from the waist. Kim That's not necessarily so. (Gentlemen, please delete this message, only the ladies should read it.) When in my 1840s outfit for Sutter's Fort, I simply do not wear any bifurcated garments. With 5 layers (shift, 3 petticoats, and dress) between me and the outside world (and no inclination to do cartwheels), my modesty is safe. I find split drawers to be very uncomfortable as they never fit properly and caused me to get badly chaffed. So all I need to do is pick up all the layers and take care of business. Of course, later in the 19th century fashions were different, but until the cage crinoline, drawers were not necessary for modesty. Joan Jurancich joa...@surewest.net I think she was saying accessability and not modesty. Your drawers is sometime caught up in the corset making it difficut to drop the drawers. And like corsets, if made right should fit comfortably. De ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] split drawers
You can find drawers in the late 1500s and forward. For the ladies with meat on their thighs it is a chaffing matter. For most it is underwear. De -Original Message- You'll find drawers starting to creep into women's clothing starting in the 1840's and 50's. They really really started to become common when women started to wear cage crinolines in the later 1850's. With crinoline there were suddenly not as many layers right next to the body (nothing but the chemise and a single petticoat) and women probably started wearing them for modesty and comfort. By the time the crinoline fell from fashion they had become typical and women just continued to wear them. Maggie Halberg -Original Message- From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wed, Sep 14, 2011 4:36 pm Subject: Re: [h-cost] split drawers Okay, dumb question, but... why did they need drawers at all? Chemise, layers of petticoats, and long skirts -- everything totally obscured, so why bother with drawers? Dede O'Hair --- On Wed, 9/14/11, Kim Baird kba...@cableone.net wrote: Victorian women NEEDED split drawers. They wore a long chemise over the top of the drawers, and a corset laced up tightly on top of that, so the only way to drop a penny was to have the drawers split. You just couldn't get at them to pull them down from the waist. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Movie Costume Question: McGonagall's Yule Ensemble
http://public.fotki.com/Kait/other_costuming/professor_mcgonagal-1/profmyuleball_cropped.html#media here is a series of photographs detailing the reconstruction of a copy of the yule gown. I don't think they got the color just right, but there is at least one fairly detailed photo of the actual gown and several comments on how they made the sleeves and collar Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Garments at the Reed Homestead
I'll certainly try (I have a Flickr account). The lady in charge takes photos of everything as we pack them away, but they are for archival purposes. We had a fly-by-night volunteer take photos of a day's work of chemises, because she had a better camera... and we never saw her again (or the photos), so we have to figure out which box those particular chemises are in, unpack them, take photos... (you get the idea). I can take photos of them if I figure out how to use my daughter's camera -- they may or may not be the nicest ones we have. We finished vacuuming all the 19th century dresses we have found so far, but they're not packed. There's so many... any particular time period? Earliest on the rack is an 1820's pelisse, then every decade thereafter.. They were dated by a lady hired in 1995 (same lady who wrote the sacque comments). We're just starting the sacques, and after that piles of mens' shirts, then *sigh* Dede _ West Village Studio www.workroombuttons.com --- On Wed, 9/14/11, Martha Kelly marthake...@nyc.rr.com wrote: Dede, is there anywhere you can post some pictures of the garments you're looking at? Maybe a Facebook page or Flickr? Martha ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] split drawers
We should keep in mind that our definition of modesty would differ greatly from their definition of modesty. Also, what we consider uncomfortable, because we don't do it / wear it all the time, was not necessarily uncomfortable to them, because they grew up dressing that way, there was no alternative. I was in the train station the other day waiting for my train, and a woman came in wearing a cotton sundress, about 5-6 above her knees. Her only undergarments (assuming here) were her knickers. Today she would be considered covered and decent, in the 1800s she would be considered nekked. We can't help but apply our 21st century mindset to everything we do, even dressing 18th or 19th century or earlier. Cactus way to drop a penny was to have the drawers split. You just couldn't get at them to pull them down from the waist. Kim That's not necessarily so. When in my 1840s outfit for Sutter's Fort, I simply do not wear any bifurcated garments. With 5 layers (shift, 3 petticoats, and dress) between me and the outside world (and no inclination to do cartwheels), my modesty is safe. I find split drawers to be very uncomfortable as they never fit properly and caused me to get badly chaffed. So all I need to do is pick up all the layers and take care of business. Joan Jurancich joa...@surewest.net ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Bear in mind I'm no expert, but they really do appear to be something a woman would have worn. Not sure if any have laundry marks, but that would cinch it as we know all the initials of the entire Reed family. Perhaps she was introducing sacque as a generic term? Like shoe could describe an extremely wide variety of footwear... okay, I'm seriously reaching here. As for the meaning of VCR... this was all done way before my time, and these notes were transcribed from something. I'll ask. Dede _ West Village Studio www.workroombuttons.com --- On Wed, 9/14/11, cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com wrote: Best thing would be if you could post a photo of one or two of these garments (spread out flat would be sufficient). From the description you quoted, these sound like just...shirts. Or shifts. I don't think sacque is a term used for these garments either in that time period or modernly...except that she refers to a man's sacque coat though I don't see how that relates to the garments described thereafter. The generic dictionary definition for sacque is a woman's full loose hip-length jacket (dictionary.com) and what she describes doesn't fit that definition. What is the VCR? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] split drawers
Unfortunately, I now completely understand why wearing split drawers would be desirable. Dede --- On Wed, 9/14/11, otsisto otsi...@socket.net wrote: For the ladies with meat on their thighs it is a chaffing matter. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
I would assume that VCR refers to video camera recorder or some such thing. At least that is what the term would have meant in 1995. Of course, we all know about assumptions! ;) Did someone make a recording back then? Maybe it's stashed in your archives somewhere. Ginni Morgan WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com 9/14/11 5:15 PM Bear in mind I'm no expert, but they really do appear to be something a woman would have worn. Not sure if any have laundry marks, but that would cinch it as we know all the initials of the entire Reed family. Perhaps she was introducing sacque as a generic term? Like shoe could describe an extremely wide variety of footwear... okay, I'm seriously reaching here. As for the meaning of VCR... this was all done way before my time, and these notes were transcribed from something. I'll ask. Dede _ West Village Studio www.workroombuttons.com --- On Wed, 9/14/11, cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com cw15147-hcos...@yahoo.com wrote: Best thing would be if you could post a photo of one or two of these garments (spread out flat would be sufficient). From the description you quoted, these sound like just...shirts. Or shifts. I don't think sacque is a term used for these garments either in that time period or modernly...except that she refers to a man's sacque coat though I don't see how that relates to the garments described thereafter. The generic dictionary definition for sacque is a woman's full loose hip-length jacket (dictionary.com) and what she describes doesn't fit that definition. What is the VCR? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] split drawers
Dear Dede-- If you have a lampshade slightly loose on its harp, press down on one side. The other side goes Flying up. The crinoline does the same thing, if not managed carefully. Even the most ladylike of persons might fall. Drawers are definitely needed. Also, they were in fashion and had been coming into fashion since somewhere around 1800. Trowsers (sic) may be found in the Workwoman's Guide (1840 edition online here: http://www.archive.org/details/workwomansguide00workgoog); my copy is after an 1838 edition, as reprinted by Old Sturbridge Village, so some sort of bifurcated undergarment for women was being constructed at that point. This book is not aimed a fashion-forward women, but women trying to clothe their families or to make clothes as a charitable act. Ann in CT why did they need drawers at all? Chemise, layers of petticoats, and long skirts -- everything totally obscured, so why bother with drawers? Dede O'Hair --- On Wed, 9/14/11, Kim Baird kba...@cableone.net wrote: Victorian women NEEDED split drawers. They wore a long chemise over the top of the drawers, and a corset laced up tightly on top of that, so the only way to drop a penny was to have the drawers split. You just couldn't get at them to pull them down from the waist. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] split drawers
Ah... that makes perfect sense. When she was not quite 12, my daughter was a jr. docent in a hoop skirt. Let's just say sitting down, um... modestly was a challenge. I had forgotten all about that experience! Dede --- On Wed, 9/14/11, Ann Catelli elvestoor...@yahoo.com wrote: If you have a lampshade slightly loose on its harp, press down on one side. The other side goes Flying up. The crinoline does the same thing, if not managed carefully. Even the most ladylike of persons might fall. Drawers are definitely needed. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Movie Costume Question: McGonagall's Yule Ensemble
These pictures should help. I found a site by a costumer who made one for herself, but I can't locate it again! I'll try later. http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Minerva_McGonagall%27s_dress_robes http://weheartit.com/entry/12025930 No, wait, I did find it; here it is! http://public.fotki.com/Kait/other_costuming/professor_mcgonagal-1/ Good luck! ailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Cathy Raymond ca...@thyrsus.com Beware how you take away hope from another human being. --Oliver Wendell Holmes ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Movie Costume Question: McGonagall's Yule Ensemble
Good attempt. Color and the sleeves were not quite on the mark but still good. The under gown's sleeve on the movie outfit appears to be a tight cothardie sleeve with lots of buttons running up the sleeve. De -Original Message- http://public.fotki.com/Kait/other_costuming/professor_mcgonagal-1/profmyule ball_cropped.html#media here is a series of photographs detailing the reconstruction of a copy of the yule gown. I don't think they got the color just right, but there is at least one fairly detailed photo of the actual gown and several comments on how they made the sleeves and collar Denise Iowa ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress)
Excuse me if someone else has already thrown out this suggestion, but my impression is simple - the 1995 cataloguer just plain wasn't knowledgeable about historical clothing! The VCR was a good old antique video recording - probably lost to posterity - and possible a good thing. They probably hired someone out of a community college program or even a friend who needed a job. Then they looked at a couple of local public library books (and some public libraries have decent costume sections and other are pathetic) and jumped to that conclusion. I'm not dumping on them - they did the best they could with what they had and for what they were paid. For example, in a heritage review of our neighbourhood, a student once labelled our home as a saltbox. They had little idea of what a real saltbox looked like. The saltbox addition was an incomplete 1980's addition - besides the fact that real saltboxes are rare in Canada. I could go on and on about museums or historic houses we've visited that have misidentified items. Closer to costume, my husband is on a special assignment (essentially curatorial) with Parks Canada. It's probably the equivalent of the U.S. National Parks Service?? Reviewing the Parks Canada collections and records, he's full of stories of misidentification and incomplete records of original artefacts and donors, etc. etc. On the other hand he's very knowledgable about militaria, as well as material culture in general, so he's having the time of his life examining and properly identifying artifacts. I'm so jealous I could puke ;-) The frightening thing is the number of people with 30+ years of experience who are going to retire and be replaced by young people who have no eye and no experience or knowledge. But that's how it goes. You have to start somewhere. Right now, a person with half a clue needs to look at those items with a fresh eye. There are a variety of titles on men's shirts out there - but I have to work tomorrow! Sheridan Alder From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 11:29:50 AM Subject: [h-cost] Need information on sacque garments (NOT the dress) Back at the Reed Homestead... we are moving on to the next pile -- stacks and stacks of shirt-like garments with no closures (other than a few with ties at the neck). We hired a woman in 1995 to start pulling clothing literally out of garbage bags and start cataloging. (Sadly, we still have pieces from 1809 still in garbage bags -- yes, the black plastic kind.) She called these shirt-like garments sacques and this is want she wrote about them... ...I would like someone after me to write the word sacque which is what we're going to use for the generic term. A sacque is a garment which hangs from the shoulder down without interruption, without darts, without a waist seam, so a man's sacque coat is one that was not cut in at the waist. And that seems to be a generic form for this style if garment, no matter how it's being used, but as I said before and you got on the VCR I think, these can be used as a working garment with a skirt, held in place with an apron. They can be used as a short nightgown for hot weather and when somebody is ill and is using a bedpan. They can be used over your dress when you're doing your hair and that's probably about it. Oh, yes, and the other thing is for maternity, when it's an expandable top for when you're pregnant and obviously can be used for nursing as well. And nobody has as many as you have. We have attempted to locate information about this type of garment, but clearly we're looking in the wrong places because we're coming up empty. We can find saques certainly but they don't look like ours. Any ideas? Dede O'Hair ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Movie Costume Question: McGonagall's Yule Ensemble
very interesting the color variation: the fotki picture looks relatively moss-green, while the weheartit picture is very emerald-jewel-tone. It's the same picture with two different color-balances. I prefer the toned-down color, myself. ALL the colors are differently balanced: the weheartit shot has blue-er ice background and more brilliant colors in the other costumes, to go along with McG's emerald; the fotki version shows more muted colors in costumes and the ice is more white-and-silver. anybody know which color values are closer to the film? chimene On Sep 14, 2011, at 7:07 PM, Catherine Olanich Raymond wrote: These pictures should help. I found a site by a costumer who made one for herself, but I can't locate it again! I'll try later. http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Minerva_McGonagall%27s_dress_robes http://weheartit.com/entry/12025930 No, wait, I did find it; here it is! http://public.fotki.com/Kait/other_costuming/professor_mcgonagal-1/ Good luck! ailman/listinfo/h-costume -- Cathy Raymond ca...@thyrsus.com Beware how you take away hope from another human being. --Oliver Wendell Holmes ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
