Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
Greetings, Wow! That sounds like quite the project you have there. I haven't a clue about peasant costumes, sorry. But one thing you might want to think about is, colour was used a lot more that it would appear now. The statues pretty much appear to be a consistent mud shade, right? Well, I was watching one documentary about these statutes (I admit it, the things fascinate me), and apparently they used to be painted incredibly colourfully but the paint didn't survive time as well as the terracotta. There are only traces of the paint left, not enough that would show up on camera, so a German (or at least I think it was German) museum recreated one of the statues and then using the traces of paint found on it, painted as it would have been when it was buried and put it on display. Most people are so blown away by the garishness of the colours they have difficulty believing that is what it would have looked like. So after my long tangent...don't write off colours for the peasant kinds, because if those statues were anything to go by, apparently there wasn't a colour they didn't like in any combination. LOL! Just about enough to make your eyes bleed - as bad as the Greeks! Cheers, Danielle At 08:18 PM 12/1/2012, you wrote: ...or Tales of a Band Mom. This year's winter percussion piece is Terra Cotta Warriors and first order of business... peasant costumes for kids in the pit (stationary instruments like xylophones, chimes, etc.) What the heck did Chinese peasants wear in 3rd century BC? Our band director is proposing simple wrap-style tunics (like short kimonos) and scrub pants torn below the knee -- both dyed in earthy colors. Semi-accurate? Horrible? Are conical hats appropriate? --although I can see them getting knocked off. I'm clueless, and can find neither image nor description. Part II will be terracotta soldier costumes to be worn by very active teenagers with drums, but I need to deal with the peasants first. Help? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
Thanks! I think I found the statue you're describing: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PGdp__poAtM/T-LYMC-WgCI/L8Q/Nld5-rVqp7c/s1600/scan0004.jpg You're right -- pretty garish... One does wonder what kind of dyes might have been used by Chinese peasants. This may be irrelevant, but I read that European peasants' clothing was actually quite colorful, and that they frequently re-dyed them as the natural colors tended to fade. Wow! That sounds like quite the project you have there. I haven't a clue about peasant costumes, sorry. But one thing you might want to think about is, colour was used a lot more that it would appear now. The statues pretty much appear to be a consistent mud shade, right? Well, I was watching one documentary about these statutes (I admit it, the things fascinate me), and apparently they used to be painted incredibly colourfully but the paint didn't survive time as well as the terracotta. There are only traces of the paint left, not enough that would show up on camera, so a German (or at least I think it was German) museum recreated one of the statues and then using the traces of paint found on it, painted as it would have been when it was buried and put it on display. Most people are so blown away by the garishness of the colours they have difficulty believing that is what it would have looked like. So after my long tangent...don't write off colours for the peasant kinds, because if those statues were anything to go by, apparently there wasn't a colour they didn't like in any combination. LOL! Just about enough to make your eyes bleed - as bad as the Greeks! Cheers, Danielle ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
Thanks! I think I found the statue you're describing: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PGdp__poAtM/T-LYMC-WgCI/L8Q/Nld5-rVqp7c/s1600/scan0004.jpg You're right -- pretty garish... One does wonder what kind of dyes might have been used by Chinese peasants. This may be irrelevant, but I read that European peasants' clothing was actually quite colorful, and that they frequently re-dyed them as the natural colors tended to fade. That is indeed interesting--I knew about the Greek statues, but not the warriors. But yes, the statues were colored with pigments--clothing would have to have been, in general, colored differently. So still raises the question whether the statues were an actual reflection of reality. As to peasants' clothing--again, depends on the dyes available, as well as the labor to use them. The ubiquitous blue indigo is native to India (they used woad, which contains the same dye, in early Western Europe). Did the Chinese have indigo or woad? All kinds of plants give various yellows--did they use them? I don't even know if the peasants wore wool, cotton, flax, or some other bast fiber (ramie, also called China grass, does grow in parts of China.) This is relevant because the bast fibers, and, to a lesser extent cotton, are in general more difficult to dye than wool. But China is such a massive territory that I'm sure what was worn varied greatly with both place and time. Sorry, again, none of this helps WorkroomButtons, does it? Ann Wass -Original Message- From: WorkroomButtons.com westvillagedrap...@yahoo.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Mon, Dec 3, 2012 6:56 am Subject: Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help? Thanks! I think I found the statue you're describing: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PGdp__poAtM/T-LYMC-WgCI/L8Q/Nld5-rVqp7c/s1600/scan0004.jpg You're right -- pretty garish... One does wonder what kind of dyes might have been used by Chinese peasants. This may be irrelevant, but I read that European peasants' clothing was actually quite colorful, and that they frequently re-dyed them as the natural colors tended to fade. Wow! That sounds like quite the project you have there. I haven't a clue about peasant costumes, sorry. But one thing you might want to think about is, colour was used a lot more that it would appear now. The statues pretty much appear to be a consistent mud shade, right? Well, I was watching one documentary about these statutes (I admit it, the things fascinate me), and apparently they used to be painted incredibly colourfully but the paint didn't survive time as well as the terracotta. There are only traces of the paint left, not enough that would show up on camera, so a German (or at least I think it was German) museum recreated one of the statues and then using the traces of paint found on it, painted as it would have been when it was buried and put it on display. Most people are so blown away by the garishness of the colours they have difficulty believing that is what it would have looked like. So after my long tangent...don't write off colours for the peasant kinds, because if those statues were anything to go by, apparently there wasn't a colour they didn't like in any combination. LOL! Just about enough to make your eyes bleed - as bad as the Greeks! Cheers, Danielle ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
On the contrary; it's very helpful! I hadn't even thought about cotton vs. linen vs. wool vs. ? Hopefully, I can learn a little more about cheap clothing dyes commonly used in Ancient China. According to Wikipedia, indigo has been used in China for centuries... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigo_dye At some point, though, I have to stop the interesting research and just come up with something! With thanks, Dede O'Hair (sorry, I thought my real name was coming up automatically) That is indeed interesting--I knew about the Greek statues, but not the warriors. But yes, the statues were colored with pigments--clothing would have to have been, in general, colored differently. So still raises the question whether the statues were an actual reflection of reality. As to peasants' clothing--again, depends on the dyes available, as well as the labor to use them. The ubiquitous blue indigo is native to India (they used woad, which contains the same dye, in early Western Europe). Did the Chinese have indigo or woad? All kinds of plants give various yellows--did they use them? I don't even know if the peasants wore wool, cotton, flax, or some other bast fiber (ramie, also called China grass, does grow in parts of China.) This is relevant because the bast fibers, and, to a lesser extent cotton, are in general more difficult to dye than wool. But China is such a massive territory that I'm sure what was worn varied greatly with both place and time. Sorry, again, none of this helps WorkroomButtons, does it? Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
Any chance of a link to the original? There's an iPad app I want to explore. . . ;) This link goes to a photo, not a page (the link which shows on the photo isn't clickable). == Marjorie Wilser =:=:=:Three Toad Press:=:=:= http://3toad.blogspot.com/ Learn to laugh at yourself and you will never lack for amusement. --MW On Dec 3, 2012, at 3:55 AM, WorkroomButtons.com wrote: Thanks! I think I found the statue you're describing: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PGdp__poAtM/T-LYMC-WgCI/L8Q/Nld5-rVqp7c/s1600/scan0004.jpg You're right -- pretty garish... One does wonder what kind of dyes might have been used by Chinese peasants. This may be irrelevant, but I read that European peasants' clothing was actually quite colorful, and that they frequently re-dyed them as the natural colors tended to fade. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
Any chance of a link to the original? There's an iPad app I want to explore. . . ;) This link goes to a photo, not a page (the link which shows on the photo isn't clickable). == Marjorie Wilser My apologies... I'm not sure where the image was originally posted, but I got it from here: http://jameszaworski.blogspot.com/2012/06/terra-cotta-warriors-of-xian-in-color.html Hope that helps! Dede ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
Um, the June 2012 issue of National Geographic Magazine has an article with color photographs on the colors of the Terra Cotta Army. Check your local library (or your neighbors) for a copy. The colors were stunning. Definitely eye bleeding time. As for peasants, see if you can google Chinese painting for that period and look for workers in the rice paddies or something like that. There are often travelogue paintings that sometimes have servants hauling everything up a mountain. Ginni -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of WorkroomButtons.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 3:56 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help? Thanks! I think I found the statue you're describing: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PGdp__poAtM/T-LYMC-WgCI/L8Q/Nld5-rVqp7c/s1600/scan0004.jpg You're right -- pretty garish... One does wonder what kind of dyes might have been used by Chinese peasants. This may be irrelevant, but I read that European peasants' clothing was actually quite colorful, and that they frequently re-dyed them as the natural colors tended to fade. Wow! That sounds like quite the project you have there. I haven't a clue about peasant costumes, sorry. But one thing you might want to think about is, colour was used a lot more that it would appear now. The statues pretty much appear to be a consistent mud shade, right? Well, I was watching one documentary about these statutes (I admit it, the things fascinate me), and apparently they used to be painted incredibly colourfully but the paint didn't survive time as well as the terracotta. There are only traces of the paint left, not enough that would show up on camera, so a German (or at least I think it was German) museum recreated one of the statues and then using the traces of paint found on it, painted as it would have been when it was buried and put it on display. Most people are so blown away by the garishness of the colours they have difficulty believing that is what it would have looked like. So after my long tangent...don't write off colours for the peasan! t kinds, because if those statues were anything to go by, apparently there wasn't a colour they didn't like in any combination. LOL! Just about enough to make your eyes bleed - as bad as the Greeks! Cheers, Danielle ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
On 12/03/2012 03:53 PM, Ginni Morgan wrote: Um, the June 2012 issue of National Geographic Magazine has an articlewith color photographs on the colors of the Terra Cotta Army. Check your local library (or your neighbors) for a copy. The colors were stunning. Definitely eye bleeding time. As for peasants, see if you can google Chinese painting for that period and look for workers in the rice paddies or something like that. There are often travelogue paintings that sometimes have servants hauling everything up a mountain. Judging from the URL on that image, it is probably taken from the National Geographic article. -- Cathy Raymond ca...@thyrsus.com (610) 805-9542 Remember that time is money. --Benjamin Franklin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
You might also look for the book 5000 Years of Chinese Costumes by Xun Zhou; Chunming Gao; in your local university library. I saw a copy today at a used bookstore and it looked like it could be useful for pattern shapes, etc. - Marion ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
Judging from the URL on that image, it is probably taken from the National Geographic article. -- Cathy Raymond ca...@thyrsus.com (610) 805-9542 Thanks -- I followed the URL, but it led to a dead end. Luckily, the blog I linked had it. -Dede ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
As for peasants, see if you can google Chinese painting for that period and look for workers in the rice paddies or something like that. There are often travelogue paintings that sometimes have servants hauling everything up a mountain. Ooo, good idea! Ann Wass -Original Message- From: Ginni Morgan ginni.mor...@doj.ca.gov To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Mon, Dec 3, 2012 3:54 pm Subject: Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help? Um, the June 2012 issue of National Geographic Magazine has an article with color photographs on the colors of the Terra Cotta Army. Check your local library (or your neighbors) for a copy. The colors were stunning. Definitely eye bleeding time. As for peasants, see if you can google Chinese painting for that period and look for workers in the rice paddies or something like that. There are often travelogue paintings that sometimes have servants hauling everything up a mountain. Ginni -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of WorkroomButtons.com Sent: Monday, December 03, 2012 3:56 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help? Thanks! I think I found the statue you're describing: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PGdp__poAtM/T-LYMC-WgCI/L8Q/Nld5-rVqp7c/s1600/scan0004.jpg You're right -- pretty garish... One does wonder what kind of dyes might have been used by Chinese peasants. This may be irrelevant, but I read that European peasants' clothing was actually quite colorful, and that they frequently re-dyed them as the natural colors tended to fade. Wow! That sounds like quite the project you have there. I haven't a clue about peasant costumes, sorry. But one thing you might want to think about is, colour was used a lot more that it would appear now. The statues pretty much appear to be a consistent mud shade, right? Well, I was watching one documentary about these statutes (I admit it, the things fascinate me), and apparently they used to be painted incredibly colourfully but the paint didn't survive time as well as the terracotta. There are only traces of the paint left, not enough that would show up on camera, so a German (or at least I think it was German) museum recreated one of the statues and then using the traces of paint found on it, painted as it would have been when it was buried and put it on display. Most people are so blown away by the garishness of the colours they have difficulty believing that is what it would have looked like. So after my long tangent...don't write off colours for the peasan! t kinds, because if those statues were anything to go by, apparently there wasn't a colour they didn't like in any combination. LOL! Just about enough to make your eyes bleed - as bad as the Greeks! Cheers, Danielle ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
On 12/03/2012 05:14 PM, Marion McNealy wrote: You might also look for the book 5000 Years of Chinese Costumes by Xun Zhou; Chunming Gao; in your local university library. I saw a copy today at a used bookstore and it looked like it could be useful for pattern shapes, etc. I have it; it's a great reference, but it doesn't say much of anything about peasant costume for early time periods. It might be possible to infer basic clothing shapes from it, but it doesn't really answer questions about colors. -- Cathy Raymond ca...@thyrsus.com (610) 805-9542 Remember that time is money. --Benjamin Franklin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
Hmm. Not a lot of easy pickings here on the museum search. If you could find an illustrated copy of the Rites of Zhou, there might be clothing illustrations in it. There seems to be a prevalent belief that peasant clothing was regional until the unification under the First Emperor, and then maybe he tried to standardize clothing while he was standardizing everything else? Which doesn't tell you what the standard *was*, alas. Here is a picture of two figures, listed as A female servant and male advisor in Chinese silk robes from the Western Han Period, 202 BC to 9 AD: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:China.Terracotta_statues007.jpg Here's a dancer from the same period: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/1992.165.19 and a musician: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/1994.605.85a-c My browser is not finding the image here, but maybe yours will. I t's supposed to be a figurine of a woman from the Warring States Period, 476–221 B.C. : http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/figurine-of-a-standing-woman-20272 This piece seems to indicate that cotton was only introduced to China around 200 BC. So your peasants wouldn't be wearing cotton. Maybe linen? http://www.sccfsac.org/textiles.html and, an interesting article on some ancient silk, cotton, and linen Chineses textile finds, including some surprisingly early dates for some dyes. http://history.cultural-china.com/en/56History9723.html If you want to use movie costumes for refer ence, there's always Hero. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0299977/ Best, Lauren Walker - Original Message - From: Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Sent: Sunday, December 2, 2012 1:36:23 AM Subject: Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help? Any help in the movie Mulan? It's been a while since I saw it, but it may have some ideas. Sharon C. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of WorkroomButtons.com Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2012 6:18 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help? ...or Tales of a Band Mom. This year's winter percussion piece is Terra Cotta Warriors and first order of business... peasant costumes for kids in the pit (stationary instruments like xylophones, chimes, etc.) What the heck did Chinese peasants wear in 3rd century BC? Our band director is proposing simple wrap-style tunics (like short kimonos) and scrub pants torn below the knee -- both dyed in earthy colors. Semi-accurate? Horrible? Are conical hats appropriate? --although I can see them getting knocked off. I'm clueless, and can find neither image nor description. Part II will be terracotta soldier costumes to be worn by very active teenagers with drums, but I need to deal with the peasants first. Help? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
I recall reading how shocked people were when they discovered that those pristine white marble Greek sculptures had been brightly painted. One thing to bear in mind is that artist's pigment palettes and dyer's palettes are often quite different. Another thing is that paint colors often are not available in dyes. The beautiful ultramarine blue so commonly shown on clothing in the various Books of Hours painted for the Duc de Berry in the 14th c. was a color unavailable in dye. Third, colors that are desirable in paint - for example, rare or expensive pigments - are often quite different from the colors that are rare or expensive in dyes. That ultramarine blue i mentioned came from lapis lazuli and was expensive and desirable in paintings. But blue in clothing came from woad or indigo and was not so desirable. One of the most desirable colors for wool and/or silk was the bright blue-red from kermes and other similar lac insects (and in the 16th c. from New World cochineal). There is a lake from a lac insect used in paint (alizarin), but it doesn't have the bright glow of the dye. Additionally, what mordants are used to fixed the dyes effect the colors that result. Using different mordants -- for example alum, tannin, and iron -- results in three different colors -- alum fairly bright and true; tannin browned a bit; iron saddened, i.e. greyed, a bit. Not to forget that mordants often weaken fibers so that they don't survive the centuries well. Further, what fibers are being dyed also effects that colors. Any cellulose fiber -- not just linen or cotton, but also various other bast fibers such as hemp, ramie -- do not take most colors well, so will be paler and fade more quickly. Whereas proteinaceous fibers such as wool and silk take colors very well. Silk tends to be reserved for the wealthy, but in many places common people wear wool, even in summer, if they have sheep, or other wool-type fiber bearing animals. Finally, unlike Euro-American artists of the 19th and much of the 20th centuries, in many cultures, artists are NOT painting from life, and this goes for the colors they use to depict garments. These points are true -- in general -- for many centuries and at least the continents of Asia and Europe, if not on other continents. I can't speak specifically to the Chinese issue, but it is worth reminding ourselves that art is not photograph, and just because something is painted a certain way does not mean that people wore those colors. Maybe they did, but to back it up, we need more input than just pieces of art -- surviving textile fragments, textual descriptions, etc. Anahita ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Chinese peasant costumes... help?
At 08:18 PM 12/1/2012, you wrote: ...or Tales of a Band Mom. This year's winter percussion piece is Terra Cotta Warriors and first order of business... peasant costumes for kids in the pit (stationary instruments like xylophones, chimes, etc.) What the heck did Chinese peasants wear in 3rd century BC? Our band director is proposing simple wrap-style tunics (like short kimonos) and scrub pants torn below the knee -- both dyed in earthy colors. Semi-accurate? Horrible? Are conical hats appropriate? --although I can see them getting knocked off. I'm clueless, and can find neither image nor description. Part II will be terracotta soldier costumes to be worn by very active teenagers with drums, but I need to deal with the peasants first. Help? I missed this question before due to zipping through a lot of e-mail. For whatever use it might be, the exhibition Secrets of the Silk Road included a handful of garments from the period you're interested in from a territory that is now part of China (though not in central China). It might give you some inspiration. I don't know how easy it would be to get your hands on the exhibition catalog, but I took a lot of notes and sketches of the clothing that was part of the exhibit and have them posted on my website here: http://www.heatherrosejones.com/silkroad/index.html (My index to the notes is arranged chronologically, which should help you focus in on the relevant items.) To re-emphasize: this items come from a region that is on the very western edge of modern China and probably does not represent core Chinese culture of the time. But in combination with artistic evidence, it may give you a place to start. Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
