Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
Hi Heather, I don't get on here much these days but this caught my eye because I was pulling my hair out over it lately. I have seen, a couple of manuscript images and I believe I might have at least one of them *somewhere* of weavers actually weaving the diagonal stripes. But I will be damned if I can figure out where I have seen them. I believe one was in a book of trades type manuscript, one might have turned up in one of Shelly Nordtorp-Madson slides that she showed us in class one day, and I'm sure one is one of my manuscripts or manuscript related books but I haven't been able to track any of them down yet. The problem with collecting those sorts of things is you wind up with a lot of books. Now I'm not saying that those are proof either way, but they open the door of possibility that it is fabric woven that way rather worn bias-cut. Personally, I have trouble with the bias-cut garment theory as well purely on the garment evolution issue - what did it come from, and what did it become afterwards? Just my two cents... If I ever do turn up the pictures, I will send them to you! Cheers, Danielle At 11:47 PM 10/20/2010, you wrote: With the caveats that artistic representations aren't always intended to represent actual clothing construction, and that representations of clothing decoration are sometimes intended to convey symbolism rather than fabric structures, and that there are multiple ways to create any particular decorative effect in fabric ... What are people's thoughts on the garments depicted in the early 14th c. Manesse Codex that have diagonal striped designs? Woven as diagonal stripes? Print? Woven as straight-grain stripes and cut on the bias? Symbolic interpretation of armorial designs not intending to represent actual garments? Some other option? How is a given hypothesis affected by other stripe-like designs in the manuscript? (Primarily horizontal stripes, but also chevron designs.) Here's a link to an image showing a variety of these designs, just for reference. I'm contemplating the plausibility of the bias cut hypothesis, but I'm failing to convince myself, given that the reasoning that would support it would also conclude that the diagonal-stripe and horizontal-stripe garments in the manuscript represent two entirely different ways of cutting garments that are otherwise identical in depiction. Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
Thanks for the lead. (The particular costuming project went in another direction, but the theoretical question is still fascinating.) As you note, the really problematic aspect for the bias cut is the lack of genealogy. (There's a similar problem for that handful of Spanish bias-plaid garments, but in that case I'm willing to put more weight on the careful depiction of how the pattern behaves with respect to the cloth. I still have reservations in that case on the genealogical side, but ...) The woven-in-diagonals theory seems quite plausible to me from parallel evidence for lozenge patterns. One of the 13th c. garments at Burgos, Spain is made from a silk fabric woven in square checkerboard-style checks (i.e., alternating solid colors, not a gingham-style pattern) but set lozenge-wise with respect to the grain of the fabric. Heather On Oct 30, 2010, at 1:11 AM, Danielle Nunn-Weinberg wrote: Hi Heather, I don't get on here much these days but this caught my eye because I was pulling my hair out over it lately. I have seen, a couple of manuscript images and I believe I might have at least one of them *somewhere* of weavers actually weaving the diagonal stripes. But I will be damned if I can figure out where I have seen them. I believe one was in a book of trades type manuscript, one might have turned up in one of Shelly Nordtorp-Madson slides that she showed us in class one day, and I'm sure one is one of my manuscripts or manuscript related books but I haven't been able to track any of them down yet. The problem with collecting those sorts of things is you wind up with a lot of books. Now I'm not saying that those are proof either way, but they open the door of possibility that it is fabric woven that way rather worn bias-cut. Personally, I have trouble with the bias-cut garment theory as well purely on the garment evolution issue - what did it come from, and what! did it become afterwards? Just my two cents... If I ever do turn up the pictures, I will send them to you! Cheers, Danielle At 11:47 PM 10/20/2010, you wrote: With the caveats that artistic representations aren't always intended to represent actual clothing construction, and that representations of clothing decoration are sometimes intended to convey symbolism rather than fabric structures, and that there are multiple ways to create any particular decorative effect in fabric ... What are people's thoughts on the garments depicted in the early 14th c. Manesse Codex that have diagonal striped designs? Woven as diagonal stripes? Print? Woven as straight-grain stripes and cut on the bias? Symbolic interpretation of armorial designs not intending to represent actual garments? Some other option? How is a given hypothesis affected by other stripe-like designs in the manuscript? (Primarily horizontal stripes, but also chevron designs.) Here's a link to an image showing a variety of these designs, just for reference. I'm contemplating the plausibility of the bias cut hypothesis, but I'm failing to convince myself, given that the reasoning that would support it would also conclude that the diagonal-stripe and horizontal-stripe garments in the manuscript represent two entirely different ways of cutting garments that are otherwise identical in depiction. Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
Considering that musicians are being depicted, and they were generally from the lower classes, they may have worn recycled clothing that was cut and re-pieced for performance. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
umm, the link to an image didn't come across?? chimene On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Heather Rose Jones wrote: With the caveats that artistic representations aren't always intended to represent actual clothing construction, and that representations of clothing decoration are sometimes intended to convey symbolism rather than fabric structures, and that there are multiple ways to create any particular decorative effect in fabric ... What are people's thoughts on the garments depicted in the early 14th c. Manesse Codex that have diagonal striped designs? Woven as diagonal stripes? Print? Woven as straight-grain stripes and cut on the bias? Symbolic interpretation of armorial designs not intending to represent actual garments? Some other option? How is a given hypothesis affected by other stripe-like designs in the manuscript? (Primarily horizontal stripes, but also chevron designs.) Here's a link to an image showing a variety of these designs, just for reference. I'm contemplating the plausibility of the bias cut hypothesis, but I'm failing to convince myself, given that the reasoning that would support it would also conclude that the diagonal-stripe and horizontal-stripe garments in the manuscript represent two entirely different ways of cutting garments that are otherwise identical in depiction. Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
Hmm, I seem to have failed at the paste part of the process: http://www.huscarl.at/wissenschaft02.php On Oct 21, 2010, at 1:07 AM, Patricia Dunham wrote: umm, the link to an image didn't come across?? chimene On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Heather Rose Jones wrote: With the caveats that artistic representations aren't always intended to represent actual clothing construction, and that representations of clothing decoration are sometimes intended to convey symbolism rather than fabric structures, and that there are multiple ways to create any particular decorative effect in fabric ... What are people's thoughts on the garments depicted in the early 14th c. Manesse Codex that have diagonal striped designs? Woven as diagonal stripes? Print? Woven as straight-grain stripes and cut on the bias? Symbolic interpretation of armorial designs not intending to represent actual garments? Some other option? How is a given hypothesis affected by other stripe-like designs in the manuscript? (Primarily horizontal stripes, but also chevron designs.) Here's a link to an image showing a variety of these designs, just for reference. I'm contemplating the plausibility of the bias cut hypothesis, but I'm failing to convince myself, given that the reasoning that would support it would also conclude that the diagonal-stripe and horizontal-stripe garments in the manuscript represent two entirely different ways of cutting garments that are otherwise identical in depiction. Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
I think, that with stripes that wide, it was two different types of fabric sewn together. The one with points may be different, however. My 2 cents Genie B On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Heather Rose Jones heather.jo...@earthlink.net wrote: Hmm, I seem to have failed at the paste part of the process: http://www.huscarl.at/wissenschaft02.php ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
When I was in college, one of the ways the costume teacher made a medieval dress was to have the actress lay down diagonally on the fabric, then trace around her. It worked beautifully, making a great fitting bias cut dress. Maybe the garment pictured was just cut on the bias out of straight-stripe woven cloth. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Heather Rose Jones Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2010 6:51 AM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes Hmm, I seem to have failed at the paste part of the process: http://www.huscarl.at/wissenschaft02.php On Oct 21, 2010, at 1:07 AM, Patricia Dunham wrote: umm, the link to an image didn't come across?? chimene On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Heather Rose Jones wrote: With the caveats that artistic representations aren't always intended to represent actual clothing construction, and that representations of clothing decoration are sometimes intended to convey symbolism rather than fabric structures, and that there are multiple ways to create any particular decorative effect in fabric ... What are people's thoughts on the garments depicted in the early 14th c. Manesse Codex that have diagonal striped designs? Woven as diagonal stripes? Print? Woven as straight-grain stripes and cut on the bias? Symbolic interpretation of armorial designs not intending to represent actual garments? Some other option? How is a given hypothesis affected by other stripe-like designs in the manuscript? (Primarily horizontal stripes, but also chevron designs.) Here's a link to an image showing a variety of these designs, just for reference. I'm contemplating the plausibility of the bias cut hypothesis, but I'm failing to convince myself, given that the reasoning that would support it would also conclude that the diagonal-stripe and horizontal-stripe garments in the manuscript represent two entirely different ways of cutting garments that are otherwise identical in depiction. Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
Only a few years later, you find the infamous Spanish diagonal plaids. http://jessamynscloset.com/plaid.html They still don't answer the question of cut on the diagonal or woven that way? but they don't seem to be an artistic convention for heraldry. They could not be stripes tacked on afterward (although I think that could be a reasonable possibility for the Manessa Codex garments). Janet ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
Sigh. Must reconstruct my thoughts, stupid e-mail program erased my message when I hit send. I hate Microsoft. Assuming the patterning isn't a matter of artistic license, I think this is a combination of bias use of a woven stripe fabric, and piecework (constructing fabric out of contrasting strips). Painted fabric wouldn't hold up well. Piecework would have been in the craft vocabulary because of domestic textiles and repair work, as well as to fill in missing corners during garment construction (widening skirts, lengthening sleeves, etc.), If a tailor had striped fabric to work with, it isn't a stretch to see him play around with the patterns that so easily pop up when moving one piece of striped fabric around on top of another. Especially given the existing patterning in contemporary architecture, tiles, etc. Chevrons, here we come! My question is: how many of the striped garments depicted in the Codex are diagonals as opposed to verticals and horizontals? Would it be more expensive to be wasteful of cloth by using up a length of woven striped cloth on the bias, or to pay for the labor of building up a bias cloth out of scrap straight-grain contrasting strips? The people shown in the Codex are either of high rank, or are employed by someone of high rank who wants to show himself to best advantage (See? I can afford to dress my retainers this way.) If labor is cheap, I could see the noble in a bias-cut garment wasteful of cloth, and his retainers in piecework strip versions made of scraps. Certainly at the other end of the century the argument for constructed stripes is easier to make. For example, many of the frescoes at Runkelstein in Tyrol show people wearing graded stripes. One man's stripes, to judge by the scale of his body to his garment, are about 1 - 1.5 inches at his collar and get to be 6 - 8 inches (if not wider) at the hem of his floor-length houppelande. Astrida ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
At 07:15 AM 10/21/2010, you wrote: My first thought is that it seems to be some sort of artistic painting convention for depicting a party or performers. If you look at the stripes, they don't follow the lines of the clothes or the body - they're painted on in straight swaths, whether or not the line crosses an arm or a fabric drape. You can especially see it in the cuffs of the sleeves. /.2 cents :) I agree. It would be possible to make the outfits with diagonal or chevron patterns with either applique or using strips of cloth sewn together (as is done in modern quilts). I would not think of actually weaving diagonal or chevron patterns as yardage for clothing. Joan Jurancich joa...@surewest.net ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
if it is allegorical or religious then the artist made up the garment. My feeling is that if this were true then all medieval and renaissance artists were fashion designers. The Manesse drawings are simplistic and the artist does not have a full grasp of fabric pattern draping. The patterns can be woven, which is what the guy on the throne most likely has. Both horizontal, diagonal,..etc. can be woven or pieced. There is a slim possibility of bias but you need to take into account of the fabric width of that period and region. To my understanding, fabric width very rarely made it past 45. Though I can not locate the info anymore, I do recall printed fabric from Byzantium at around this period so there is a slim chance (very slim) of it being printed. De -Original Message- With the caveats that artistic representations aren't always intended to represent actual clothing construction, and that representations of clothing decoration are sometimes intended to convey symbolism rather than fabric structures, and that there are multiple ways to create any particular decorative effect in fabric ... What are people's thoughts on the garments depicted in the early 14th c. Manesse Codex that have diagonal striped designs? Woven as diagonal stripes? Print? Woven as straight-grain stripes and cut on the bias? Symbolic interpretation of armorial designs not intending to represent actual garments? Some other option? How is a given hypothesis affected by other stripe-like designs in the manuscript? (Primarily horizontal stripes, but also chevron designs.) (snip) I'm contemplating the plausibility of the bias cut hypothesis, but I'm failing to convince myself, given that the reasoning that would support it would also conclude that the diagonal-stripe and horizontal-stripe garments in the manuscript represent two entirely different ways of cutting garments that are otherwise identical in depiction. Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
HRJ, Sorry dont know much about the Manesse Codex and the surrounding culture or even much about the 14th c. I've been head-first into the serving hall fashions of 1420-1440s Catalunya preparing for the Perfectly Period Feast next month. There's a diagonal striped garment here, as well. I'll use it to provide a parallel example. It's worn by a panter, or carver in the panel St Andrew saves a bishop (they're dining with the devil in the form of a woman). See the Retable of the Golden Legend of St Andrew, 1420-30 - Master of Roussillon, Perpignan – now at the Met NYC . (I can comment further on the Catalunya-Italian penninsula cultural relationships, or on the social place of staff at a formal dinner in a small but noble household, but I suspect that would wander off topic quickly.) Back to the St Andrew panel. What I see is black with gold plaid diagonally striped with a red-orange solid. The paint is quite damaged here in the corner of this image. The garment is not just diagonally striped in a flattened V, it's counter changed. With modern materials I'd probably recreate this with the black gold plaid wool cut on the straight grain as the gold stripe in the plaid runs parallel with the red-orange panels. The (modern) quilter in me demands use of straight grain in the red-orange stripe as well. LR panels have to be cut on the opposite bias. This is not particularly sparing of materials, but then I'm not going to find this stripe in a modern fabric store either. With infinite time money for materials, I'd experiment with weaving a striped velvet fabric that alternated these panels. For anyone doubting the striped ground, I refer you to the book Brocarts Celestes where you can see a picture labeled Fragment de velour coupe polychrome avec un motif de grenade, last 3rd15th c. With either reconstruction, I'd have to cut the garment panels with the CF on the bias. Allow me to note that in the common recontruction of the short houppe, the modern seamstress puts the straight grain on the CFCB and has a true bias on side seam. In constrast, a reconstruction cutting the garment with the CF/CB bias means the sideseam is now the straight grain. A crazier reconstruction (with more extravagant use of expensive fabric even less use of historical methods) I'd have to cut the left right panels to counterchange the stripe on the bias. Use the image with caution as the individual panel is quite small, and the figure a very small part of it. Anyway, Heather, love to share a drink with you noodle over the possibilities! --cin Cynthia Barnes cinbar...@gmail.com On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 9:47 PM, Heather Rose Jones heather.jo...@earthlink.net wrote: With the caveats that artistic representations aren't always intended to represent actual clothing construction, and that representations of clothing decoration are sometimes intended to convey symbolism rather than fabric structures, and that there are multiple ways to create any particular decorative effect in fabric ... ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
Heather I have made a number of tunics on this general pattern, so I took the liberty of interpreting the stripes as straight grain. The artist clearly does accurately depict the actual clothing, although I think he does a fair job of giving the general impression of the garments. However, he paints all of the stripes as straight lines with no allowance for draping/wrapping around the body. This includes both the horizontal stripes and the diagonal stripes. I think the blue panel with red/white stripes is woven although the stripes are painted horizontal to the page and not to the person they are clothing. The horizontal stripes in the yellow/red tunic and the green/white tunic clearly carry over from the body onto the arm without allowing for the fact that the fabric on the lower arm would have been on the same stripe as the shoulder (in wide fabric), or else it would be horizontal to the arm itself (narrower fabric with separate sleeve pieces). They could be either pieced alternating strips of straight grain cloth or a woven cloth with wide weft faced stripes. In the case of the red/gray chevron panel and the green/red diagonal panel, I think these are straight grain strips of cloth appliqued on the diagonal to the base fabric (cut on the straight). The chevrons would be pieced with either mitered corners or the straight grain and the diagonal stripes could be worked as single solid pieces. I've done something similar with diagonal neck yokes on tunics, particularly where I wanted to take advantage of a stripe in the fabric to create a diamond pattern. The white/pink chevrons above could be painted, printed, woven as brocade, or pieced and appliqued. In summary, I think the artist was depicting actual clothing that can be reproduced, but doing so within the artistic conventions of his time. Actually, if I can find some of that copious spare time I supposedly have, I think I'll try to reproduce a couple of the tunics this winter. After all, I need new garb. I'll let you know what I come up with. Ginni (Gwenhwyfaer) Heather Rose Jones heather.jo...@earthlink.net 10/20/10 9:47 PM With the caveats that artistic representations aren't always intended to represent actual clothing construction, and that representations of clothing decoration are sometimes intended to convey symbolism rather than fabric structures, and that there are multiple ways to create any particular decorative effect in fabric ... What are people's thoughts on the garments depicted in the early 14th c. Manesse Codex that have diagonal striped designs? Woven as diagonal stripes? Print? Woven as straight-grain stripes and cut on the bias? Symbolic interpretation of armorial designs not intending to represent actual garments? Some other option? How is a given hypothesis affected by other stripe-like designs in the manuscript? (Primarily horizontal stripes, but also chevron designs.) Here's a link to an image showing a variety of these designs, just for reference. I'm contemplating the plausibility of the bias cut hypothesis, but I'm failing to convince myself, given that the reasoning that would support it would also conclude that the diagonal-stripe and horizontal-stripe garments in the manuscript represent two entirely different ways of cutting garments that are otherwise identical in depiction. Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This communication with its contents may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. It is solely for the use of the intended recipient(s). Unauthorized interception, review, use or disclosure is prohibited and may violate applicable laws including the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the communication. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
But there's a difference between _whether_ the art represents actual clothing details and how _well_ it does so. The failure to represent how a design on fabric would follow the folds of the fabric doesn't automatically imply that it doesn't represent an actual fabric design. That aspect seems to be more a matter of the artistic conventions of the time. Heather On Oct 21, 2010, at 7:15 AM, Elizabeth H. wrote: My first thought is that it seems to be some sort of artistic painting convention for depicting a party or performers. If you look at the stripes, they don't follow the lines of the clothes or the body - they're painted on in straight swaths, whether or not the line crosses an arm or a fabric drape. You can especially see it in the cuffs of the sleeves. /.2 cents :) On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Genie Barrett maggeg...@gmail.com wrote: I think, that with stripes that wide, it was two different types of fabric sewn together. The one with points may be different, however. My 2 cents Genie B On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Heather Rose Jones heather.jo...@earthlink.net wrote: Hmm, I seem to have failed at the paste part of the process: http://www.huscarl.at/wissenschaft02.php ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:31 AM, Leah Janette wrote: Only a few years later, you find the infamous Spanish diagonal plaids. http://jessamynscloset.com/plaid.html They still don't answer the question of cut on the diagonal or woven that way? but they don't seem to be an artistic convention for heraldry. They could not be stripes tacked on afterward (although I think that could be a reasonable possibility for the Manessa Codex garments). The diagonal plaids I find a far more compelling argument for representation of a cut, although I haven't run across any surviving garments that support the conclusion. But part of that is the more realistic style of art during their era. But also, in renderings of plaid fabric in garments, there's a strong correlation (not absolute, but strong) between the representation of bias and garments that are more closely fitted while plaids represented as straight-grain correlate with garments represented as more loosely fitted. SInce the Manesse garments are relatively loose, that correlation doesn't seem to extrapolate. Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:53 AM, Schaeffer, Astrida wrote: Sigh. Must reconstruct my thoughts, stupid e-mail program erased my message when I hit send. I hate Microsoft. Assuming the patterning isn't a matter of artistic license, I think this is a combination of bias use of a woven stripe fabric, and piecework (constructing fabric out of contrasting strips). Painted fabric wouldn't hold up well. Piecework would have been in the craft vocabulary because of domestic textiles and repair work, as well as to fill in missing corners during garment construction (widening skirts, lengthening sleeves, etc.), If a tailor had striped fabric to work with, it isn't a stretch to see him play around with the patterns that so easily pop up when moving one piece of striped fabric around on top of another. Especially given the existing patterning in contemporary architecture, tiles, etc. Chevrons, here we come! My question is: how many of the striped garments depicted in the Codex are diagonals as opposed to verticals and horizontals? That's one of the interesting things. No vertical stripes at all that I can find. Plenty of horizontal stripes of varying widths. A fair sprinkling of the diagonals. (In both cases, sometimes on a particolored garment with half solid.) A very few examples of chevron (zig-zag) designs. Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
Thank you all for your thoughts on this question -- it's been useful to see how other people would analyze it. I think I've confirmed my opinion that the data simply doesn't support a conclusion of bias cut at this particular time in this particular context -- at least not sufficiently for my own personal standards. (I badly needed a reality check after spending too much time last night with the graph paper figuring out that I actually _could_ piece the garment from the length of striped fabric in question with next to no waste. But could isn't should and since I'm a bit of a structure fanatic I think I'll go in a different direction.) Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
Chiming in late, I'm afraid, but toss my reading into this camp: On 10/20/2010 11:47 PM, Heather Rose Jones wrote: Symbolic interpretation of armorial designs not intending to represent actual garments? I suppose the garments *could* be made by a variety of conjectured methods, as others have pointed out, but I see nothing in other art of the period to indicate that it *was* done, at least not as routinely as this particular manuscript would suggest. It's important to remember that the Manesse Codex consists of a series of biographies of historical courtly poets carrying out highly romanticized deeds of arms and love. Heraldic motifs and patterns are used throughout the manuscript, often as identifiers but also as part of the general aesthetic presentation, and at least some of the poets' heraldic coats-of-arms were likely invented for the purpose. Remember also that stripes, particoloring, and similar colorful variations were a standard way of identifying entertainers in artwork of this period ... and all of these story subjects were entertainers. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
What are people's thoughts on the garments depicted in the early 14th c. Manesse Codex that have diagonal striped designs? Woven as diagonal stripes? Print? Woven as straight-grain stripes and cut on the bias? Symbolic interpretation of armorial designs not intending to represent actual garments? Some other option? I have a sligthly different possible option: If you cut the stripes on the diagonal and sew them together into a new diagnoally striped piece of fabric, then you haven't changed the grain of the fabric when you go to cut out the garment. I believe Master Vyncent atte Wodegate did this with a later period man's cotehardie, and I remember him saying that it didn't take much more fabric then a normally constructed cotehardie would. (Pictures of it are in the Photos section of the aotc Yahoo group). Not that this argues one way or the other about whether what is depicted in the Manesse Codex had any relation to what was worn... -sunny ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
Also, during this period, the silk trade was flourishing. One thing the Orient did to change fabrics was the bound dying. Using a board in a clamp to resist and area and dye the exposed area. The bias of the fabric isn't affected and a unique pattern is created. Maybe this is what the author/designer was doing. Sincerely, Rebecca Rautine From: heather.jo...@earthlink.net Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 17:13:02 -0700 To: h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes On Oct 21, 2010, at 8:53 AM, Schaeffer, Astrida wrote: Sigh. Must reconstruct my thoughts, stupid e-mail program erased my message when I hit send. I hate Microsoft. Assuming the patterning isn't a matter of artistic license, I think this is a combination of bias use of a woven stripe fabric, and piecework (constructing fabric out of contrasting strips). Painted fabric wouldn't hold up well. Piecework would have been in the craft vocabulary because of domestic textiles and repair work, as well as to fill in missing corners during garment construction (widening skirts, lengthening sleeves, etc.), If a tailor had striped fabric to work with, it isn't a stretch to see him play around with the patterns that so easily pop up when moving one piece of striped fabric around on top of another. Especially given the existing patterning in contemporary architecture, tiles, etc. Chevrons, here we come! My question is: how many of the striped garments depicted in the Codex are diagonals as opposed to verticals and horizontals? That's one of the interesting things. No vertical stripes at all that I can find. Plenty of horizontal stripes of varying widths. A fair sprinkling of the diagonals. (In both cases, sometimes on a particolored garment with half solid.) A very few examples of chevron (zig-zag) designs. Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
On Oct 21, 2010, at 7:42 PM, Sunshine Buchler wrote: What are people's thoughts on the garments depicted in the early 14th c. Manesse Codex that have diagonal striped designs? Woven as diagonal stripes? Print? Woven as straight-grain stripes and cut on the bias? Symbolic interpretation of armorial designs not intending to represent actual garments? Some other option? I have a sligthly different possible option: If you cut the stripes on the diagonal and sew them together into a new diagnoally striped piece of fabric, then you haven't changed the grain of the fabric when you go to cut out the garment. I believe Master Vyncent atte Wodegate did this with a later period man's cotehardie, and I remember him saying that it didn't take much more fabric then a normally constructed cotehardie would. (Pictures of it are in the Photos section of the aotc Yahoo group). *grin* Don't need pictures -- I see it in person on a regular basis. But my current interest in this topic came out of a particular piece of striped fabric, so the hypothesis of pieced and straight-grain ends up falling in the don't use this fabric for this garment category. Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
With the caveats that artistic representations aren't always intended to represent actual clothing construction, and that representations of clothing decoration are sometimes intended to convey symbolism rather than fabric structures, and that there are multiple ways to create any particular decorative effect in fabric ... What are people's thoughts on the garments depicted in the early 14th c. Manesse Codex that have diagonal striped designs? Woven as diagonal stripes? Print? Woven as straight-grain stripes and cut on the bias? Symbolic interpretation of armorial designs not intending to represent actual garments? Some other option? How is a given hypothesis affected by other stripe-like designs in the manuscript? (Primarily horizontal stripes, but also chevron designs.) Here's a link to an image showing a variety of these designs, just for reference. I'm contemplating the plausibility of the bias cut hypothesis, but I'm failing to convince myself, given that the reasoning that would support it would also conclude that the diagonal-stripe and horizontal-stripe garments in the manuscript represent two entirely different ways of cutting garments that are otherwise identical in depiction. Heather ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Opinions on Manesse Codex diagonal stripes
On 10/20/2010 9:47 PM, Heather Rose Jones wrote: With the caveats that artistic representations aren't always intended to represent actual clothing construction, and that representations of clothing decoration are sometimes intended to convey symbolism rather than fabric structures, and that there are multiple ways to create any particular decorative effect in fabric ... What are people's thoughts on the garments depicted in the early 14th c. Manesse Codex that have diagonal striped designs? Woven as diagonal stripes? Speaking as an ex-weaver, it can be done but it's a real pain. It's a lot easier to weave vertical or horizontal stripes and cut the garment differently. Fran Lavolta Press Two new books of 1880s clothing patterns! www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
