Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
This post seems to have lots of images to show what you are talking about; however I can not access any of them - I ge a forbiden note at the top of every page. Is there another way to see these images? Paula It may be some security software on your own computer - I have no connection with whatever university or group put these on the internet and I have no problem accessing them. They are very large files. You might try using a friend's computer and see if that will help. Janet ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
In a message dated 3/5/2010 12:41:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, kay...@gmail.com writes: Or maybe, if someone gave uit to her, it's an older trained dress that was out of fashion and the donor thought it could be remodeled by the recipient. Oh, no, it was custom-made for her--she sent her sister a dress of hers and her daughter's, and her sister had several outfits specially made in the latest fashion. They were the envy of all the ladies in Washington DC. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
There were none in Australia, the first railways here opened in the 1850s, -C. This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
I'm looking to make my first (non-fantasy-tinged) Regency gown, out of white on white windowpane cotton. I am finding that during my target time period (1800-1810) many (all?) dresses had a train, even for day. I'm considering eliminating this to reduce wear and tear (it's fine white fabric after all), but if I choose to make one, what can I do to minimize damage? Is it documented to include a lining, or loop the train up, or detach it in some way? Arnold and Bradfield aren't showing much so far, except for looped-up riding gowns, which isn't the style I'm after. Thoughts? And thanks in advance, Allison T. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
Allison--many, but not all, day dresses had trains, and, at least in the US, trains were out of style for day dresses by 1805. (I seem to remember a quote that they were out of style in England by then, too, but I can't remember the exact reference for that one.) The train would have been cut as an extension of the skirt, so not detachable. I think I would go without, if I were you, considering the extreme hassle it would be in a white cotton. Ann Wass -Original Message- From: A. Thurman athur...@gmail.com To: h-costume@mail.indra.com Sent: Thu, Mar 4, 2010 1:17 pm Subject: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains? I'm looking to make my first (non-fantasy-tinged) Regency gown, out of hite on white windowpane cotton. I am finding that during my target time period (1800-1810) many (all?) resses had a train, even for day. I'm considering eliminating this to reduce wear and tear (it's fine hite fabric after all), but if I choose to make one, what can I do to inimize damage? Is it documented to include a lining, or loop the rain up, or detach it in some way? Arnold and Bradfield aren't howing much so far, except for looped-up riding gowns, which isn't he style I'm after. Thoughts? And thanks in advance, Allison T. __ -costume mailing list -cost...@mail.indra.com ttp://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume = ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
I recently read (will try to hunt down the source, so this isn't official) that they normally wore the train over one arm. The point was to bring the skirt close to the legs to emphasize the nearly naked look. So trains didn't trail, they helped you look naughty. ;-) And they stayed clean! The few trained muslin dresses I've seen had suspiciously unstained trains. I'd wondered how the museums had gotten the mud out without damaging the fabric. Happy sewing, Deb Salisbury The Mantua-Maker Designer and creator of quality historical sewing patterns, Renaissance to Victorian Now available: Elephant's Breath and London Smoke: Historical Colors, Names, Definitions Uses www.mantua-maker.com http://mantua-maker-patterns.blogspot.com I'm looking to make my first (non-fantasy-tinged) Regency gown, out of white on white windowpane cotton. I am finding that during my target time period (1800-1810) many (all?) dresses had a train, even for day. I'm considering eliminating this to reduce wear and tear (it's fine white fabric after all), but if I choose to make one, what can I do to minimize damage? Is it documented to include a lining, or loop the train up, or detach it in some way? Arnold and Bradfield aren't showing much so far, except for looped-up riding gowns, which isn't the style I'm after. Thoughts? And thanks in advance, Allison T. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
I think I would go without, if I were you, considering the extreme hassle it would be in a white cotton. And the fact that nobody seems to know how to behave around a train, and if it ever hits the floor somebody will step on it. -- Carolyn Kayta Barrows -- “The future is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.” -William Gibson -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
I recently read (will try to hunt down the source, so this isn't official) that they normally wore the train over one arm. The point was to bring the skirt close to the legs to emphasize the nearly naked look. So trains didn't trail, they helped you look naughty. ;-) And they stayed clean! The few trained muslin dresses I've seen had suspiciously unstained trains. I'd wondered how the museums had gotten the mud out without damaging the fabric. I have seen one extant dress, almost certainly a day dress (cotton print, bib front) that has a train. That train is not long enough to drape over the arm. Ann Wass -Original Message- From: Deb Salisbury, the Mantua-Maker d...@mantua-maker.com To: h-costume@mail.indra.com Sent: Thu, Mar 4, 2010 2:23 pm Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains? I recently read (will try to hunt down the source, so this isn't official) that they normally wore the train over one arm. The point was to bring the skirt close to the legs to emphasize the nearly naked look. So trains didn't trail, they helped you look naughty. ;-) And they stayed clean! The few trained muslin dresses I've seen had suspiciously unstained trains. I'd wondered how the museums had gotten the mud out without damaging the fabric. Happy sewing, Deb Salisbury The Mantua-Maker Designer and creator of quality historical sewing patterns, Renaissance to Victorian Now available: Elephant's Breath and London Smoke: Historical Colors, Names, Definitions Uses www.mantua-maker.com http://mantua-maker-patterns.blogspot.com I'm looking to make my first (non-fantasy-tinged) Regency gown, out of white on white windowpane cotton. I am finding that during my target time period (1800-1810) many (all?) dresses had a train, even for day. I'm considering eliminating this to reduce wear and tear (it's fine white fabric after all), but if I choose to make one, what can I do to minimize damage? Is it documented to include a lining, or loop the train up, or detach it in some way? Arnold and Bradfield aren't showing much so far, except for looped-up riding gowns, which isn't the style I'm after. Thoughts? And thanks in advance, Allison T. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
Sounds lovely. Answering the question of what to do with a train, both in terms of carrying it and in terms of protecting it, is a challenge. Here are some thoughts: For the gowns just before 1800 that were fuller, women are shown twisting the train up behind their backs, holding a bit of it under their arms, or pulling the fullness of the skirt around towards the front. Here are some images from Heideloff's: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1795-03-0005.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1795-07-0005.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1795-10-0005.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1795-11-0002.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1797-08-0002.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1798-03-0005.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1799-05-0002.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1799-10-0002.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1800-10-0005.jpg On the other hand, the fashionable ladies promenading at Kensington Gardens in 1804 allowed their trains to flow behind them, so elegantly. Notice, however, that their petticoats/undergowns also appear to be trained. This might be a clue as to how to protect the overgown from excessive soiling. A easy to wash plain cotton undergown beneath a diaphonous overgown would work well. http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/1804-fashionsoflondon-promenade-Kensingtongardens.jpg By 1810 trains all but disappear, and even before that there are many images of gowns that have no trains. And, as an aside, if making a formal gown for evening, be sure to differentiate between 'ball dress' and 'evening wear.' I have yet to find an image of a post-1810 ball gown that has a train. Up to and around 1810 there are plenty of 'full dress' or 'evening wear' or 'opera dress' gowns that do, but ball gowns, no. Ball dress: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/1809-wu-ackermann-balldress.png Evening full dress: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/1809-white-washington.jpg By the way, I would be suspicious of claims that all women wrapped their gowns over their arms to pull them tight. SOunds like a modern interpretation! - Hope ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
And, as an aside, if making a formal gown for evening, be sure to differentiate between 'ball dress' and 'evening wear.' I have yet to find an image of a post-1810 ball gown that has a train. Up to and around 1810 there are plenty of 'full dress' or 'evening wear' or 'opera dress' gowns that do, but ball gowns, no. Ball dress: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/1809-wu-ackermann-balldress.png Evening full dress: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/1809-white-washington.jpg Generally, I agree with you that early 19th-century ball gowns were often shorter than other evening dresses. However, Jane Austen does interestingly say in _Northanger Abbey_ that Catherine and her friend Isabella called each other by their Christian name, were always arm in arm when they walked, pinned up each other's train for the dance, and were not to be divided in the set. Fran Lavolta Press Books on historic clothing, including: The Lady's Stratagem: A Repository of 1820s Directions for the Toilet, Manuta-Making, Stay-Making, Millinery Etiquette http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
It is an interesting question, isn't it? My take on that phrase has always been that when she wrote Northanger Abbey in 1798-1799, pinning up a train would have been necessary, particularly in the crowded assembly rooms at Bath. It would have still been an accurate statement when Austen revised the manuscript for potential publication in 1803. The manuscript was revised again just before it's actual (and posthumous) publication in 1817, but it's hard to imagine that anyone would have a train on any gown by that time, so I had always assumed that Austen simply left the earlier phrase stand during that last revision. It captures Catherine and Isabella's relationship so beautifully that I'm glad she left it in... - Hope Lavolta Press wrote: Generally, I agree with you that early 19th-century ball gowns were often shorter than other evening dresses. However, Jane Austen does interestingly say in _Northanger Abbey_ that Catherine and her friend Isabella called each other by their Christian name, were always arm in arm when they walked, pinned up each other's train for the dance, and were not to be divided in the set. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
In a message dated 3/4/2010 5:55:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, hope.greenb...@uvm.edu writes: in 1817, but it's hard to imagine that anyone would have a train on any gown by that time Rosalie Stier Calvert, who lived in Prince George's County, Maryland, received clothing from her sister in Antwerp for her daughter's introduction into society in 1817. I've not checked the original French of her letter, but The English translation is that Rosalie regrets that her full-dress blue gown is trailing, as no one was wearing them like that here. I believe that means it has a train, and they must still have been fashionable on the Continent at that time. Ann Wass ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
Just wanted to thank everyone for their replies. Hope, thank you for the images (your post below), and the difference between ball and opera gowns. FWIW, I'm going for a basic day gown that might I might accessorize in future for evening, if possible. Based on your responses. I think I'm going to leave off the train - I am a klutz walking in long skirts at the best of times, and it might be a modern conceit, but I have no interest in walking around holding up my train or bunching it under my arms :P Perhaps I'll create an open robe or similar to dress it up, and IT can have the train! Allison T. Message: 6 Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 16:47:09 -0500 From: Hope Greenberg hope.greenb...@uvm.edu To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains? Message-ID: 4b902a5d.20...@uvm.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Sounds lovely. Answering the question of what to do with a train, both in terms of carrying it and in terms of protecting it, is a challenge. Here are some thoughts: For the gowns just before 1800 that were fuller, women are shown twisting the train up behind their backs, holding a bit of it under their arms, or pulling the fullness of the skirt around towards the front. Here are some images from Heideloff's: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1795-03-0005.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1795-07-0005.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1795-10-0005.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1795-11-0002.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1797-08-0002.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1798-03-0005.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1799-05-0002.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1799-10-0002.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1800-10-0005.jpg On the other hand, the fashionable ladies promenading at Kensington Gardens in 1804 allowed their trains to flow behind them, so elegantly. Notice, however, that their petticoats/undergowns also appear to be trained. This might be a clue as to how to protect the overgown from excessive soiling. A easy to wash plain cotton undergown beneath a diaphonous overgown would work well. http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/1804-fashionsoflondon-promenade-Kensingtongardens.jpg By 1810 trains all but disappear, and even before that there are many images of gowns that have no trains. And, as an aside, if making a formal gown for evening, be sure to differentiate between 'ball dress' and 'evening wear.' I have yet to find an image of a post-1810 ball gown that has a train. Up to and around 1810 there are plenty of 'full dress' or 'evening wear' or 'opera dress' gowns that do, but ball gowns, no. Ball dress: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/1809-wu-ackermann-balldress.png Evening full dress: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/1809-white-washington.jpg By the way, I would be suspicious of claims that all women wrapped their gowns over their arms to pull them tight. SOunds like a modern interpretation! - Hope ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
I believe that means it has a train, and they must still have been fashionable on the Continent at that time. Or maybe, if someone gave uit to her, it's an older trained dress that was out of fashion and the donor thought it could be remodeled by the recipient. -- Carolyn Kayta Barrows -- “The future is already here, it is just unevenly distributed.” -William Gibson -- ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains?
This post seems to have lots of images to show what you are talking about; however I can not access any of them - I ge a forbiden note at the top of every page. Is there another way to see these images? Paula Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 16:47:09 -0500 From: hope.greenb...@uvm.edu To: h-cost...@indra.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Question: Regency trains? Sounds lovely. Answering the question of what to do with a train, both in terms of carrying it and in terms of protecting it, is a challenge. Here are some thoughts: For the gowns just before 1800 that were fuller, women are shown twisting the train up behind their backs, holding a bit of it under their arms, or pulling the fullness of the skirt around towards the front. Here are some images from Heideloff's: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1795-03-0005.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1795-07-0005.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1795-10-0005.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1795-11-0002.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1797-08-0002.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1798-03-0005.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1799-05-0002.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1799-10-0002.jpg http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/heideloff-1800-10-0005.jpg On the other hand, the fashionable ladies promenading at Kensington Gardens in 1804 allowed their trains to flow behind them, so elegantly. Notice, however, that their petticoats/undergowns also appear to be trained. This might be a clue as to how to protect the overgown from excessive soiling. A easy to wash plain cotton undergown beneath a diaphonous overgown would work well. http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/1804-fashionsoflondon-promenade-Kensingtongardens.jpg By 1810 trains all but disappear, and even before that there are many images of gowns that have no trains. And, as an aside, if making a formal gown for evening, be sure to differentiate between 'ball dress' and 'evening wear.' I have yet to find an image of a post-1810 ball gown that has a train. Up to and around 1810 there are plenty of 'full dress' or 'evening wear' or 'opera dress' gowns that do, but ball gowns, no. Ball dress: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/1809-wu-ackermann-balldress.png Evening full dress: http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/1800train/1809-white-washington.jpg By the way, I would be suspicious of claims that all women wrapped their gowns over their arms to pull them tight. SOunds like a modern interpretation! - Hope ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume _ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
