subject:"\[Hardhats\-members\] more M read questions"

Most MUMPS implementations have no problem with binary data. It's old utilities 
that are
oriented to text-only data that might have a problem with it. GT.M, for 
instance is quite
capable of uploading and downloading binary data, such as images, just fine. It 
can also
easily hand off that task to utilities available in the Linux environment. We 
use this
capability many thousands of times a day in VMACS and M2Web.



Ruben wrote:
On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 15:13 -0400, smcphelan wrote:
 Here, here.  Chris also stated this.  ANSI standard M is not really designed
 to handle binary data.  This is one reason Intersystems added extensions (if
 you wish to call it that).  But then you are bound to a specific M vendor's
 implementation, in this case, Cache.


This is all beyond me because all data is just data.  ASCI, Binary, all
the same thing.

No matter how you look at it, a byte can only have one of 256
representations.  The rest is all interpretation.

Ruben

---
Jim Self
Systems Architect, Lead Developer
VMTH Computer Services, UC Davis
(http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/us/jaself)


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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Thurman Pedigo

. GT.M, for
 instance is quite
 capable of uploading and downloading binary data, such as images, just
 fine. It can also
 easily hand off that task to utilities available in the Linux environment.

Hmm - Does Cache not have this capability?

thurman

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardhats-
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Self
 Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 3:13 AM
 To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net
 Subject: Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions
 
 Most MUMPS implementations have no problem with binary data. It's old
 utilities that are
 oriented to text-only data that might have a problem with it. GT.M, for
 instance is quite
 capable of uploading and downloading binary data, such as images, just
 fine. It can also
 easily hand off that task to utilities available in the Linux environment.
 We use this
 capability many thousands of times a day in VMACS and M2Web.
 
 
 
 Ruben wrote:
 On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 15:13 -0400, smcphelan wrote:
  Here, here.  Chris also stated this.  ANSI standard M is not really
 designed
  to handle binary data.  This is one reason Intersystems added
 extensions (if
  you wish to call it that).  But then you are bound to a specific M
 vendor's
  implementation, in this case, Cache.
 
 
 This is all beyond me because all data is just data.  ASCI, Binary, all
 the same thing.
 
 No matter how you look at it, a byte can only have one of 256
 representations.  The rest is all interpretation.
 
 Ruben
 
 ---
 Jim Self
 Systems Architect, Lead Developer
 VMTH Computer Services, UC Davis
 (http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/us/jaself)
 
 
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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

Off hand, I don't know, but members of this list do seem to have a
tendency to plug GT.M (presumably because it is open source).
Personally, I think we'd all benefit from a little more vendor
neutrality.

--- Thurman Pedigo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 . GT.M, for
  instance is quite
  capable of uploading and downloading binary data, such as images,
 just
  fine. It can also
  easily hand off that task to utilities available in the Linux
 environment.
 
 Hmm - Does Cache not have this capability?
 
 thurman
 



===
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Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure.

--Kent Beck








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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 11:18, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
 Off hand, I don't know, but members of this list do seem to have a
 tendency to plug GT.M (presumably because it is open source).
 Personally, I think we'd all benefit from a little more vendor
 neutrality.

Good Morning!

I don't know what vendor neutral is.  When something is Free Software,
it means that the programmer and user have control of their destiny. 
When the software is not free, it means they have zero control, and are
almost always abused.  Should this reality be ignored because of
someones private interests or feature set?

I can't speak for others, but I always do whats best for me and my
clients.  And that means I use Free Software always.
 
Ruben

 
 --- Thurman Pedigo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  . GT.M, for
   instance is quite
   capable of uploading and downloading binary data, such as images,
  just
   fine. It can also
   easily hand off that task to utilities available in the Linux
  environment.
  
  Hmm - Does Cache not have this capability?
  
  thurman
  
 
 
 
 ===
 Gregory Woodhouse  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure 
 failure.
 
 --Kent Beck
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

What $P change is that?

In any case, I agree with Kevin that I/O in MUMPS could be simplified.
That being said, this is a stumbling block in any language becaue the
user needs both the capability of reading (up to) a fixed number of
bytes and scanning the input stream for complete lines of text (along
the lines of the library function scanf in C). It's not uncommon to see
entire books devoted to the intricacies of I/O in a particular
language.

--- Nancy Anthracite [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I thought that was part of the purpose of $P change in the GTM code,
 to get it 
 to recognize the TCP processes and not cut them off when something
 that would 
 otherwise be recognized as a control character was sent. Can you
 leverage 
 that somehow?
 
 On Sunday 21 August 2005 09:46 am, Kevin Toppenberg wrote:
  The read command in M seems to be the most complicated function it
 has.
 
  I am trying to perform a binary read.  I do it this way:
 
  read blockIn#255
 
  The problem is that as I debug the code, $length(blockIn) does not
  always=255.
 
  I think this is because sometimes the stream contains a
 terminator,
  such as a #13 etc.
 
  How do do a read that ignores the usual terminators?
 
  Thanks
  Kevin
 
 
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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

 In the latter case,  
 there is the problem that M programmers have a propensity for using  
 sentinel values like ^ to delimit data items, but the first problem  
 is much more serious.
 


The only sure fire way to get data moved somewhere is with something
like fread or fwrite.   You must know how much data your moving because
any character (or even combination of chars) can be part of a
string/binary

Ruben

 ===
 Gregory Woodhouse
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 The most incomprehensible thing about
 the world is that it is at all comprehensible.
   --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
 
 
 On Aug 21, 2005, at 1:26 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
 
  On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 12:57 -0700, Chris Richardson wrote:
 
  Ah, but how big is a character?  MUMPS deals in characters  
  reguardless of
  the number of octets required to represent it.
 
 1Octet  = 8 bits
 
 Ascii - 1 octet/character
 Unicode, Kanji,Katakana,etc - 2 octets/character
 ISO-10646 - 4octets/character
 
 
  In terms of storing and retrieving data, it shouldn't matter.  We've
  been dealing with 7 bit encoded attachments for a decade in email.
 
  Ruben
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Nancy Anthracite

I thought that was part of the purpose of $P change in the GTM code, to get it 
to recognize the TCP processes and not cut them off when something that would 
otherwise be recognized as a control character was sent. Can you leverage 
that somehow?

On Sunday 21 August 2005 09:46 am, Kevin Toppenberg wrote:
 The read command in M seems to be the most complicated function it has.

 I am trying to perform a binary read.  I do it this way:

 read blockIn#255

 The problem is that as I debug the code, $length(blockIn) does not
 always=255.

 I think this is because sometimes the stream contains a terminator,
 such as a #13 etc.

 How do do a read that ignores the usual terminators?

 Thanks
 Kevin


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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

First of all, this is not a WorldVistA list, this is Hardhats. If
WorldVistA chooses to focus entirely on GT.M that is their choice, but
not everyone running (or interested in running) VistA will use GT.M,
and the intent of this list is to focus on VistA infrastructure
regardless of the platform. 

--- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 11:18, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
  Off hand, I don't know, but members of this list do seem to have a
  tendency to plug GT.M (presumably because it is open source).
  Personally, I think we'd all benefit from a little more vendor
  neutrality.
 
 Good Morning!
 
 I don't know what vendor neutral is.  When something is Free
 Software,
 it means that the programmer and user have control of their destiny. 
 When the software is not free, it means they have zero control, and
 are
 almost always abused.  Should this reality be ignored because of
 someones private interests or feature set?
 
 I can't speak for others, but I always do whats best for me and my
 clients.  And that means I use Free Software always.
  
 Ruben
 
  
  --- Thurman Pedigo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   . GT.M, for
instance is quite
capable of uploading and downloading binary data, such as
 images,
   just
fine. It can also
easily hand off that task to utilities available in the Linux
   environment.
   
   Hmm - Does Cache not have this capability?
   
   thurman
   
  
  
  
  ===
  Gregory Woodhouse  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can
 ensure failure.
  
  --Kent Beck
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
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--Kent Beck








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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

Right (no pun intended).

The problem, of course, is that a # read in MUMPS doesn't necessarily
behave like an fread. If it did, life would be much simpler. Or would
it? There is still the problem ot text I/O, and unlike most other
languages, MUMPS provides no standard mechanism of for linking to
runtime libraries. That means that programmers tend to use the basic
I/O facilities provided at the language level, and not library
functions like scanf (or fread) in C. Fileman and Kernel attempt to
address this problem by providing routines like ^DIR (the Fileman
reader) and tools like the Kernel device handler, but the solution is
not really ideal. My point of view is that programmers should not have
to do extra work or rely on libraries or applications over and above
the basic language environment to perform basic I/O tasks. In addition,
languages need to provide support for binary files, pipes and FIFOs,
TCP channels and the like. MUMPS is very (7-bit) text-centric,
essentially by design.

--- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  In the latter case,  
  there is the problem that M programmers have a propensity for using
  
  sentinel values like ^ to delimit data items, but the first
 problem  
  is much more serious.
  
 
 
 The only sure fire way to get data moved somewhere is with something
 like fread or fwrite.   You must know how much data your moving
 because
 any character (or even combination of chars) can be part of a
 string/binary
 
 Ruben
 
  ===
  Gregory Woodhouse
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  The most incomprehensible thing about
  the world is that it is at all comprehensible.
--Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
  
  
  On Aug 21, 2005, at 1:26 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
  
   On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 12:57 -0700, Chris Richardson wrote:
  
   Ah, but how big is a character?  MUMPS deals in characters  
   reguardless of
   the number of octets required to represent it.
  
  1Octet  = 8 bits
  
  Ascii - 1 octet/character
  Unicode, Kanji,Katakana,etc - 2 octets/character
  ISO-10646 - 4octets/character
  
  
   In terms of storing and retrieving data, it shouldn't matter. 
 We've
   been dealing with 7 bit encoded attachments for a decade in
 email.
  
   Ruben
  
  
  
  
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--Kent Beck








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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Nancy Anthracite

Guys, Kevin happens to be trying to code this at the moment and he is running 
GTM on his server.  He is actually trying to write something cross-platform 
ultimately, so you can both pull in your horns.  We are looking for a 
scanning solution that will work for everyone, and Kevin is putting a lot of 
time and effort in on this as are others working on this, so be nice, please.

On Monday 22 August 2005 12:04 pm, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
 First of all, this is not a WorldVistA list, this is Hardhats. If
 WorldVistA chooses to focus entirely on GT.M that is their choice, but
 not everyone running (or interested in running) VistA will use GT.M,
 and the intent of this list is to focus on VistA infrastructure
 regardless of the platform.

 --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 11:18, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
   Off hand, I don't know, but members of this list do seem to have a
   tendency to plug GT.M (presumably because it is open source).
   Personally, I think we'd all benefit from a little more vendor
   neutrality.
 
  Good Morning!
 
  I don't know what vendor neutral is.  When something is Free
  Software,
  it means that the programmer and user have control of their destiny.
  When the software is not free, it means they have zero control, and
  are
  almost always abused.  Should this reality be ignored because of
  someones private interests or feature set?
 
  I can't speak for others, but I always do whats best for me and my
  clients.  And that means I use Free Software always.
 
  Ruben
 
   --- Thurman Pedigo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
. GT.M, for
   
 instance is quite
 capable of uploading and downloading binary data, such as
 
  images,
 
just
   
 fine. It can also
 easily hand off that task to utilities available in the Linux
   
environment.
   
Hmm - Does Cache not have this capability?
   
thurman
  
   ===
   Gregory Woodhouse  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
   Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can
 
  ensure failure.
 
   --Kent Beck
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
   ---
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 ===
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 Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure
 failure.

 --Kent Beck








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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 12:04, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
 First of all, this is not a WorldVistA list, this is Hardhats. If
 WorldVistA chooses to focus entirely on GT.M that is their choice, but
 not everyone running (or interested in running) VistA will use GT.M,
 and the intent of this list is to focus on VistA infrastructure
 regardless of the platform. 
 

I understand this, but what are you going to do when the seemingly
majority of developers on the list are making the rational decision to
use the Free Software product.  Should the letters G T and M be expunged
from the list?  You can't make VistA work without the right kind of
database and the two are strongly intertwined.  I wish I could run it
with MYSQL, but I can't.

It's difficult for me to understand any complaint in regard to the lists
members focusing on GT.M which is the Free Software database backend
that they are using.  It sound to me a little bit like complaining about
gentrification.

Ruben



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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 12:15, In addition,
 languages need to provide support for binary files, pipes and FIFOs,
 TCP channels and the like. MUMPS is very (7-bit) text-centric,
 essentially by design.
 

Writing an encoding scheme should be fairly straight forward.  7 bit to
8 bit is exactly what most mail programs do.  The problem is knowing how
much data your drawing in prior to moving the data.  And there has to be
some kind of table which describes the basic operating environment to
determine if it is 7,6,8, or even 10 bit chars (although I'll bet it is
8).

Ruben


 --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   In the latter case,  
   there is the problem that M programmers have a propensity for using
   
   sentinel values like ^ to delimit data items, but the first
  problem  
   is much more serious.
   
  
  
  The only sure fire way to get data moved somewhere is with something
  like fread or fwrite.   You must know how much data your moving
  because
  any character (or even combination of chars) can be part of a
  string/binary
  
  Ruben
  
   ===
   Gregory Woodhouse
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   
   The most incomprehensible thing about
   the world is that it is at all comprehensible.
 --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
   
   
   On Aug 21, 2005, at 1:26 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
   
On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 12:57 -0700, Chris Richardson wrote:
   
Ah, but how big is a character?  MUMPS deals in characters  
reguardless of
the number of octets required to represent it.
   
   1Octet  = 8 bits
   
   Ascii - 1 octet/character
   Unicode, Kanji,Katakana,etc - 2 octets/character
   ISO-10646 - 4octets/character
   
   
In terms of storing and retrieving data, it shouldn't matter. 
  We've
been dealing with 7 bit encoded attachments for a decade in
  email.
   
Ruben
   
   
   
   
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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

I'm very familiar with electronic mail. I'll have to check to see if
it's still there, but I may be responsible for a paltry single phrase
in RFC 2821 (though I'd like to think that my participation in the WG
mailing lists amounted to a bit more than that).

--- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 12:15, In addition,
  languages need to provide support for binary files, pipes and
 FIFOs,
  TCP channels and the like. MUMPS is very (7-bit) text-centric,
  essentially by design.
  
 
 Writing an encoding scheme should be fairly straight forward.  7 bit
 to
 8 bit is exactly what most mail programs do.  The problem is knowing
 how
 much data your drawing in prior to moving the data.  And there has to
 be
 some kind of table which describes the basic operating environment to
 determine if it is 7,6,8, or even 10 bit chars (although I'll bet it
 is
 8).
 
 Ruben
 
 
  --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
In the latter case,  
there is the problem that M programmers have a propensity for
 using

sentinel values like ^ to delimit data items, but the first
   problem  
is much more serious.

   
   
   The only sure fire way to get data moved somewhere is with
 something
   like fread or fwrite.   You must know how much data your moving
   because
   any character (or even combination of chars) can be part of a
   string/binary
   
   Ruben
   
===
Gregory Woodhouse
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

The most incomprehensible thing about
the world is that it is at all comprehensible.
  --Albert Einstein (1879-1955)


On Aug 21, 2005, at 1:26 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:

 On Sun, 2005-08-21 at 12:57 -0700, Chris Richardson wrote:

 Ah, but how big is a character?  MUMPS deals in characters  
 reguardless of
 the number of octets required to represent it.

1Octet  = 8 bits

Ascii - 1 octet/character
Unicode, Kanji,Katakana,etc - 2 octets/character
ISO-10646 - 4octets/character


 In terms of storing and retrieving data, it shouldn't matter.
 
   We've
 been dealing with 7 bit encoded attachments for a decade in
   email.

 Ruben




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  ===
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  Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can
 ensure failure.
  
  --Kent Beck
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
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--Kent Beck








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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 12:41, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
 I'm very familiar with electronic mail. I'll have to check to see if
 it's still there, but I may be responsible for a paltry single phrase
 in RFC 2821 (though I'd like to think that my participation in the WG
 mailing lists amounted to a bit more than that).
 

Hey - Then we can just lift the code and translate it!

Ruben




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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

Right after you tell me about the bitwise operators in MUMPS!

Actually, though you can't do bit arithmetic in MUMPS, you do have $A()
and $C() so its quite possible to perform ordinary arithmetic on
character values, so something like base64 shouldn't be too hard.

Fileman even provides a basic hex encoding tool, unfortunately misnamed
$$HTML^DILF. It works like this:

W $$HTML^DILF(This^is^a^delimited^string,1)
This#94;is#94;a#94;delimited#94;string

(a second argument of -1 performs the inverse operation).

I've used this call a number of times, particularly in input/output
transforms.

--- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Hey - Then we can just lift the code and translate it!
 
 Ruben



===
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Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure.

--Kent Beck








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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

Oops. that didn't wor'k. I'm using a web interface and the 94's were
translated to ^. I wa wrong on two counts: the encoding is decimal,
not hexadecimal, and the encoding used is the standard one for numeric
entities in XML/HTML (meaning, BTW, that the name of the call is less
of a misnomer than I thought. What I was expecting is the familiar URL
encoding where the space (decimal 32, hexadecimal 20) becomes %20 and
so forth.

--- Greg Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Right after you tell me about the bitwise operators in MUMPS!
 
 Actually, though you can't do bit arithmetic in MUMPS, you do have
 $A()
 and $C() so its quite possible to perform ordinary arithmetic on
 character values, so something like base64 shouldn't be too hard.
 
 Fileman even provides a basic hex encoding tool, unfortunately
 misnamed
 $$HTML^DILF. It works like this:
 
 W $$HTML^DILF(This^is^a^delimited^string,1)
 This^is^a^delimited^string
 
 (a second argument of -1 performs the inverse operation).
 
 I've used this call a number of times, particularly in input/output
 transforms.
 
 --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  
  Hey - Then we can just lift the code and translate it!
  
  Ruben
 
 
 
 ===
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 Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure
 failure.
 
 --Kent Beck
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure.

--Kent Beck








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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

Greg Woodhouse wrote:
Off hand, I don't know, but members of this list do seem to have a
tendency to plug GT.M (presumably because it is open source).
Personally, I think we'd all benefit from a little more vendor
neutrality.

I am not a vendor and neither is GT.M. I mention GT.M (and Linux and Apache) 
because that
is what I use and know best and because GT.M on Linux is a completely Open 
Source (Free)
implementation of MUMPS that can form the basis for totally free installations 
of VistA
and other MUMPS based information systems and applications, including M2Web and 
VMACS,

At the moment, GT.M is the only Free (Open Source) MUMPS implementation that 
has been
taken seriously enough by VistA developers to make VistA work on it. I believe 
that
MUMPS_V1 implements enough of the MUMPS standard that VistA could be made to 
run on it
quite well, but that has not been done yet as far as I know.

--- Thurman Pedigo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 . GT.M, for
  instance is quite
  capable of uploading and downloading binary data, such as images,
 just
  fine. It can also
  easily hand off that task to utilities available in the Linux
 environment.

 Hmm - Does Cache not have this capability?

 thurman

---
Jim Self
Systems Architect, Lead Developer
VMTH Computer Services, UC Davis
(http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/us/jaself)


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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Thurman Pedigo


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:hardhats-
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ruben Safir
 Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 9:53 AM
 To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net
 Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions
 
 I can't speak for others, but I always do whats best for me and my
 clients.  
 
 Ruben
 

Glad to have that clarified/t



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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions



--- Jim Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Greg Woodhouse wrote:
 Off hand, I don't know, but members of this list do seem to have a
 tendency to plug GT.M (presumably because it is open source).
 Personally, I think we'd all benefit from a little more vendor
 neutrality.
 
 I am not a vendor and neither is GT.M. 

No, but Fidelity is.

 I mention GT.M (and Linux and
 Apache) because that
 is what I use and know best 

I can't fault you for that. 

 and because GT.M on Linux is a completely
 Open Source (Free)
 implementation of MUMPS that can form the basis for totally free
 installations of VistA
 and other MUMPS based information systems and applications, including
 M2Web and VMACS,


I'm less impressed by this argument. First of all, totally free is an
illusion. You may not spend money on licensing fees, but if it takes
you 10 or 100 or 1,000 hours of work to install and configure the
system, that is a cost. For some people, paying for a license may be a
better option if they can recoup the cost in other ways (such as less
time being required to install, configure and maintain the product).
Second, this is really an ideological program. Open source may be a
good thing (and I think it is), but is it being touted because it's the
right way to do things or because it's the cheapest?
 
 At the moment, GT.M is the only Free (Open Source) MUMPS
 implementation that has been
 taken seriously enough by VistA developers to make VistA work on it.

Perhaps so. But reason may only be that it has become something of a
juggernaut -- people put their efforts into GT.M because that is where
other people are putting their efforts, and they want to see the time
and effort they put into it make a difference. Again, this is not
necessarily a bad thing. If there is no compelling technical reason to
opt for an alternate product, people will likely not do so. This does
not, however, imply that GT.M is technically superior (or inferior) to
any of its alternatives. In a sense, it is simply the product that
won.

 I believe that
 MUMPS_V1 implements enough of the MUMPS standard that VistA could be
 made to run on it
 quite well, but that has not been done yet as far as I know.

And, as I suggested above, there may be no compelling reason to do so.
If I am the only developer interested in working with MUMPS_V1 and I
have no reason to believe that a critical mass of developers will share
a similar interest, I have no real incentive to do so. I've actually
thought about inquiring into whether porting MUMPS_V1 to OS X might be
an option, but I also have limited time and other things I'd rather do
with the time I do have. No doubt we can all say essentially the same
thing.
 



===
Gregory Woodhouse  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure.

--Kent Beck








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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:26 -0700, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
 I'm less impressed by this argument. First of all, totally free is
 an
 illusion. You may not spend money on licensing fees, but if it takes
 you 10 or 100 or 1,000 hours of work to install and configure the
 system, that is a cost.

That's the wrong totally free.  

Ruben



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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

Normal email is text based. In mime encoding, it handles binary files as 
attachments by
surrounding them with a string of ASCII characters guaranteed not to be 
included in the
content. This is a standard feature of web browsers used to upload HTML forms 
that can
include binary data such as image files.

Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In the latter case,
 there is the problem that M programmers have a propensity for using
 sentinel values like ^ to delimit data items, but the first problem
 is much more serious.



The only sure fire way to get data moved somewhere is with something
like fread or fwrite.   You must know how much data your moving because
any character (or even combination of chars) can be part of a
string/binary

---
Jim Self
Systems Architect, Lead Developer
VMTH Computer Services, UC Davis
(http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/us/jaself)


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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:26 -0700, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
 Open source may be a
 good thing (and I think it is), but is it being touted because it's
 the
 right way to do things or because it's the cheapest?

I don't know what Open Source is exactly, but in the case of Free
Software, its the right way to do things.  Its also usually the least
expensive way as well, but that is just a side affect of it being a Free
Software program.  The freer things are, in most things, the more money
you make and the less you pay for a unit.

Ruben



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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:26 -0700, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
 I've actually
 thought about inquiring into whether porting MUMPS_V1 to OS X might be
 an option, but I also have limited time and other things I'd rather do
 with the time I do have. No doubt we can all say essentially the same
 thing.

That shouldn't be too hard.

Ruben



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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

Maybe not, but it's still not at the top of my priorities list.

--- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:26 -0700, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
  I've actually
  thought about inquiring into whether porting MUMPS_V1 to OS X might
 be
  an option, but I also have limited time and other things I'd rather
 do
  with the time I do have. No doubt we can all say essentially the
 same
  thing.
 
 That shouldn't be too hard.
 
 Ruben
 
 
 
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Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure.

--Kent Beck








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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

That's one perspective, but to others it might be a business decision.
In the case of VistA, a hypothetical health care provider may opt for
an open source solution because it believes that they money saved in
licensing fees will not be offset, say, by increased support costs.
Now, it may well be that the open source product is also the best
product available (Apache comes to mind here), and it may well be that
the overall cost of ownership is less for an open source product in
these cases. But the point is that, whether you agree or disagree, a
reasonable person may opt for an open source solution because it seems
to be the best option available based on purely financial
considerations. It is also possible that a developer or (less likely,
but still possible) an organization may opt for an open source solution
based primarily on ethical considerations or matters of public policy.
These are all issues worth discussing, but they are also out of scope
for this list, so I'll leave it at that.

--- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:26 -0700, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
  Open source may be a
  good thing (and I think it is), but is it being touted because it's
  the
  right way to do things or because it's the cheapest?
 
 I don't know what Open Source is exactly, but in the case of Free
 Software, its the right way to do things.  Its also usually the
 least
 expensive way as well, but that is just a side affect of it being a
 Free
 Software program.  The freer things are, in most things, the more
 money
 you make and the less you pay for a unit.
 
 Ruben
 
 
 
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Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure.

--Kent Beck








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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

Gregory Woodhouse  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
My point of view is that programmers should not have
to do extra work or rely on libraries or applications over and above
the basic language environment to perform basic I/O tasks. In addition,
languages need to provide support for binary files, pipes and FIFOs,
TCP channels and the like.

If you are just using the language and system features available, you need to 
learn
exactly how they work and how they can be used to provide the most effective 
solutions to
the problems you take on. In areas outside of the coverage of standard MUMPS, 
you need to
make allowances for implementation specific variations and features. Going with 
a lowest
common denominator approach, especially in areas involving I/O, generally has 
such
degraded performance as to be simply unacceptable.

The VistA kernal developers have done an admirable job of providing a common 
interface for
many essential features, but I think that pretty much stops short of handling 
binary data.

You keep making noises like you want to redesign the MUMPS language. Perhaps 
you should
get involved with the development of GT.M or MUMPS_V1 or Kevin O'Kane's MUMPS, 
or even
better with all three, and bring them up to the level of functionality and 
quality that
you need - the source code is available and Free to be improved upon.

With the demise of the MUMPS Users Group (aka MUMPS Technology Association aka 
MTA) and of
the MUMPS Development Committee (MDC) and of most of the vendors that followed 
Standard
MUMPS, especially Datatree, Micronetics, and Digital Equipment Corporation 
(DEC), the days
of nagging the vendors for enhancements to the language are pretty much all 
gone -  the
vendors essentially do not exist any more.

Now that we have Free implementations of MUMPS (free as in freedom, not free 
beer), anyone
who really knows what they are talking about has the option of fixing the 
problems directly.

MUMPS is very (7-bit) text-centric, essentially by design.

No it's not. It is character oriented and for a very long time all standard 
MUMPS
implementations that I know of have supported at least 8-bit characters and 
some 16-bit.

---
Jim Self
Systems Architect, Lead Developer
VMTH Computer Services, UC Davis
(http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/us/jaself)


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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 18:10, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
 That's one perspective, but to others it might be a business decision.
 In the case of VistA, a hypothetical health care provider may opt for
 an open source solution because it believes that they money saved in
 licensing fees will not be offset, say, by increased support costs.

To be fair Greg, frankly, the people making these decisions aren't even
qualified to make such choices.

It cost $200K/year from Siemans for a barely usable system in which it
take them 6 months to simply change a label on a form.  Just to change
the F*^4g label so that a user knows what the heck s/he's looking at. 
So what kind of support are we talking about here?  We all make our
money on the support.  The only difference is, with a Free Software
system your not locked into a single vendor.

So who is making these decisions?

 Now, it may well be that the open source 

I think you mean Free Software  ...

 product is also the best
 product available (Apache comes to mind here), and it may well be that
 the overall cost of ownership is less for an open source product in
 these cases. But the point is that, whether you agree or disagree, a
 reasonable person may opt for an open source solution because it seems
 to be the best option available based on purely financial
 considerations. It is also possible that a developer or (less likely,
 but still possible) an organization may opt for an open source solution
 based primarily on ethical considerations or matters of public policy.
 These are all issues worth discussing, but they are also out of scope
 for this list, so I'll leave it at that.
 

:)

Ever read the book Town Hall 

Ruben
 --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:26 -0700, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
   Open source may be a
   good thing (and I think it is), but is it being touted because it's
   the
   right way to do things or because it's the cheapest?
  
  I don't know what Open Source is exactly, but in the case of Free
  Software, its the right way to do things.  Its also usually the
  least
  expensive way as well, but that is just a side affect of it being a
  Free
  Software program.  The freer things are, in most things, the more
  money
  you make and the less you pay for a unit.
  
  Ruben
  
  
  
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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 18:00, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
 Maybe not, but it's still not at the top of my priorities list.

That's COMPLETELY understandable.

Ruben
 
 --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 14:26 -0700, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
   I've actually
   thought about inquiring into whether porting MUMPS_V1 to OS X might
  be
   an option, but I also have limited time and other things I'd rather
  do
   with the time I do have. No doubt we can all say essentially the
  same
   thing.
  
  That shouldn't be too hard.
  
  Ruben
  
  
  
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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions



--- Jim Self [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Gregory Woodhouse  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 You keep making noises like you want to redesign the MUMPS language.
 Perhaps you should
 get involved with the development of GT.M or MUMPS_V1 or Kevin
 O'Kane's MUMPS, or even
 better with all three, and bring them up to the level of
 functionality and quality that
 you need - the source code is available and Free to be improved upon.
 

There are a number of reasons I'm not especially interested in getting
involved with GT.M development right now. I have (seriously) considered
it, but I have seen little interest expressed on this list in
addressing the types of issues I've attempted to call attention to, and
supporting the existing code base seems to be the biggest (even only)
concern of most people on this list. Intel may have released a series
of chips backward compatible with the 8088, and that strategy worked
well for a time, but eventually they had to break with the past and
deverlop new lines of chips that are no longer backward compatible with
their old 8-bit CPU with its 8-bit bus. I don't think VistA's really
any different, but we're kind of stuck at the 80286 stage. No one seems
ready to make the leap to the 80386, much less less the Pentium 4.


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--Kent Beck








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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Michael D. Weisner




From: "Ruben 
Safir" Monday, August 22, 2005 6:03 PM I don't know what Open Source 
is exactly, but in the case of Free Software, its the "right" way to do 
things. Its also usually the least expensive way as well, but that 
is just a side affect of it being a Free Software program. The 
freer things are, in most things, the more money you make and the less 
you pay for a unit. RubenYou have missed a very critical 
difference in the concept of Open Source,that is that the source code is 
available. Free software, the stuff that isgiven away, does not always 
incorporate the source code. The fact that Ihave access to the source 
code permits me to know the limitations of theprogram, at the very least 
(Microsoft model) and to add function to theprogram in most cases.As 
a result, I do not support the Open Source concept as "Free Software" 
butrather as software that can grow, change and not become orphaned by 
theauthor. As has been noted in this and other lists, the cost of 
support isthe real expense in software. The "least expensive way" is 
the method thatresults in the longest lifespan of the system and the lowest 
cost of supportover the life of the product. Please do not confuse 
this with the cost ofpurchase or implementation.Lastly, what is 
meant by the statement: "The freer things are, in mostthings, the more money 
you make and the less you pay for a unit." Who isreferenced by the 
"you".Mike

Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions


 You have missed a very critical difference in the concept of Open
 Source,
 that is that the source code is available.  Free software, the stuff
 that is
 given away, does not always incorporate the source code.  The fact
 that I
 have access to the source code permits me to know the limitations of
 the
 program, at the very least (Microsoft model) and to add function to
 the
 program in most cases.
 

I believe your confusing Free Software with the marketing speech created
by Bruce Perens.  

It's Free Software, like in Free Market, and it has a specific
definition which is detailed here

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

On the other hand, the term Open has been badly mangled by MS, Sun and
others.  Its very confusing to use the term Open Source. 

 As a result, I do not support the Open Source concept as Free
 Software but
 rather as software that can grow, change and not become orphaned by
 the
 author.  As has been noted in this and other lists, the cost of
 support is
 the real expense in software.  The least expensive way is the method
 that
 results in the longest lifespan of the system and the lowest cost of
 support
 over the life of the product.  Please do not confuse this with the
 cost of
 purchase or implementation.
 
 Lastly, what is meant by the statement: The freer things are, in most
 things, the more money you make and the less you pay for a unit.  Who
 is
 referenced by the you.
 
 Mike
 



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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions


 
 Lastly, what is meant by the statement: The freer things are, in most
 things, the more money you make and the less you pay for a unit.  Who
 is
 referenced by the you.
 

That would be you in the perfect sense.

Ruben




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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions


 There are a number of reasons I'm not especially interested in getting
 involved with GT.M development right now. I have (seriously) considered
 it, but I have seen little interest expressed on this list in
 addressing the types of issues I've attempted to call attention to, and
 supporting the existing code base seems to be the biggest (even only)
 concern of most people on this list.

Greg, you have my sympathy and if i knew enough, I'd help you.

Ruben




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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

Fascinating. A language with tensed personal pronouns.

--- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 That would be you in the perfect sense.
 
 Ruben
 



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Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure.

--Kent Beck








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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Michael D. Weisner

From: Ruben Safir Monday, August 22, 2005 6:50 PM

 I believe your confusing Free Software with the marketing speech created
 by Bruce Perens.

 It's Free Software, like in Free Market, and it has a specific
 definition which is detailed here

 http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html


Yes, of course that is what you meant.  In a Free Market, you could even
sell the free software and prevent it from being distributed as Free
Software by adding restrictive licensing.

Mike




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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Michael D. Weisner

From: Ruben Safir Monday, August 22, 2005 6:52 PM
  
  Lastly, what is meant by the statement: The freer things are, in most
  things, the more money you make and the less you pay for a unit.  Who
  is
  referenced by the you.
  
 
 That would be you in the perfect sense.
 
 Ruben

This is perfectly ridiculous.  One is either buying or selling, not both.

Mike




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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 18:54, Michael D. Weisner wrote:
 From: Ruben Safir Monday, August 22, 2005 6:50 PM
 
  I believe your confusing Free Software with the marketing speech created
  by Bruce Perens.
 
  It's Free Software, like in Free Market, and it has a specific
  definition which is detailed here
 
  http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
 
 
 Yes, of course that is what you meant.  In a Free Market, you could even
 sell the free software and prevent it from being distributed as Free
 Software by adding restrictive licensing.

Well no.  Strictly speaking that is called a monopoly.  In fact, that is
exactly the classical term for copyright and patent.

Such as we have a socialist safety net in this society, we also have
legal monopolies, all which diverge from a Free Market.

Ruben




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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions


 This is perfectly ridiculous.  One is either buying or selling, not both.
 
It's both and everyone.  Buyers, sellers, and even people who live on
small islands in the pacific.  Its You in the perfect sense.

If you want to discuss this more, email me off list.

Thanks

Ruben




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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 18:48, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
 Fascinating. A language with tensed personal pronouns.
 
I think it is called perfect because it refers to group of people, each
one individually, and at any time.

It's more common in Hebrew.

Ruben




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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

No, the issue is that it's necessary to compile MUMPS (not C). In
principle, there's no reason why it can't be done.

--- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   Unlike GT.M, it does not generate machine language in
  compiling MUMPS source routines so I would expect no special
 surprizes due to the shift
  from X86 on FreeBSD to PPC on OS/X.
  
 
 Why can't the complier generate the correct machine code for the RISK
 ? 
 Is binary outputs embedded into the source code of GM.T?
 
 Ruben
 
 
 
 
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Design quality doesn't ensure success, but design failure can ensure failure.

--Kent Beck








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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

So, you're serious? That really is interesting. I have read that
Japanese has a group of adjectives that can exhibit tense, but I did
not know that pronouns in Hebrew could exhibit aspect like this.

--- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 18:48, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
  Fascinating. A language with tensed personal pronouns.
  
 I think it is called perfect because it refers to group of people,
 each
 one individually, and at any time.
 
 It's more common in Hebrew.
 
 Ruben
 
 
 
 
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--Kent Beck








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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

When God talks, everyone listens ;)

Ruben

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 19:20, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
 So, you're serious? That really is interesting. I have read that
 Japanese has a group of adjectives that can exhibit tense, but I did
 not know that pronouns in Hebrew could exhibit aspect like this.
 
 --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 18:48, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
   Fascinating. A language with tensed personal pronouns.
   
  I think it is called perfect because it refers to group of people,
  each
  one individually, and at any time.
  
  It's more common in Hebrew.
  
  Ruben
  
  
  
  
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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 19:14, Greg Woodhouse wrote:
 No, the issue is that it's necessary to compile MUMPS (not C). In
 principle, there's no reason why it can't be done.

I understand that. (or maybe I don't)  But why can't GT.M compile to
create binary RISK instructions for mumps with gcc?

Ruben
 
 --- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
Unlike GT.M, it does not generate machine language in
   compiling MUMPS source routines so I would expect no special
  surprizes due to the shift
   from X86 on FreeBSD to PPC on OS/X.
   
  
  Why can't the complier generate the correct machine code for the RISK
  ? 
  Is binary outputs embedded into the source code of GM.T?
  
  Ruben
  
  
  
  
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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

Ruben wrote:
  Unlike GT.M, it does not generate machine language in
 compiling MUMPS source routines so I would expect no special surprizes due 
 to the shift
 from X86 on FreeBSD to PPC on OS/X.


Why can't the complier generate the correct machine code for the RISC ?
Is binary outputs embedded into the source code of GM.T?

Yes (essentially), GT.M includes a MUMPS compiler that generates machine 
language for the
target processor that it runs on. GT.M for Linux/x86 has a virtual machine 
model with
specifics for x86. Other GT.M implementations (not Free yet) target other 
processors and
it might be that a model for PPC could be easily added by someone familiar with 
that
processor.

I have looked at the GT.M sources and I admire the clean modular breakdown of 
its design
for supporting multiple types of CPU and multiple operating systems, but that 
type of
programming is outside of my expertise and interests at the moment.

As a matter of principle, I would like to help out with such a project so if 
someone with
the expertise and time to make it happen starts to work on such a project, 
please let me
know if you think I can help.

---
Jim Self
Systems Architect, Lead Developer
VMTH Computer Services, UC Davis
(http://www.vmth.ucdavis.edu/us/jaself)


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RE: GTM on OSX WAS: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread David Sommers

I believe the issue was related to compiler specific optimizations in
the C implementation of the M compiler.  Bhaskar's been quiet lately but
we've discussed this on the list before.  I was interested because I
simply love my MAC.

Even though I'm about to paste in part of the discussion to port, I
think we should just wait.  Apple will switch to x86 next year and they
will more than likely follow in the footsteps of Sun - by providing a
run-time library that can execute linux compiled code natively.  On top
of that, FreeBSD so closely matches that Apple documents the differences
easily enough to scope the port:

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/KernelProgram
ming/BSD/chapter_11_section_3.html


Here's a piece of our previous discussion...

--

On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 01:46 -0500, chuck5566 wrote:
 Agree wholeheartedly, Chris.  I would suggest:
 
  1st - Determining that level of interest, and where it's at.
   Are people really interested in a GT.M for OS X,
   or would clients on OS X that could converse
   with GT.M and the RPC broker (on a Linux box
   elsewhere) be enough?  Or both?
   Might be time for a Hardhats-OSX list.

[KSB] Since there is a GT.M (non open source; non free) for IBM eServer
pSeries (nee RS/6000) AIX, a port to Mac OS X from this would be
straightforward, but would need to be performed by Fidelity.

A port to Mac OS X from GT.M on x86 GNU/Linux (open source  free) would
require retargeting the M compiler (the database would just go over,
since it vanilla UNIX for the most part).  So, creating a client would
be almost as much work as porting GT.M.

   2nd - If the interest for GT.M on OS X is sufficient, I'd
first
 straighten out the legalities before starting any
 work or even looking for funding.
 
 Chuck

GT.M on x86 GNU/Linux is released under the GNU General Public License
(GPL).  If it is used to port GT.M to Mac OS X by anyone other than
Fidelity, then the resulting work would be covered by the GPL, and is
best released under the GPL.

-- Bhaskar

--

 
David Sommers, Architect  |  Dialog Medical

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
Woodhouse
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 7:15 PM
To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

No, the issue is that it's necessary to compile MUMPS (not C). In
principle, there's no reason why it can't be done.

--- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   Unlike GT.M, it does not generate machine language in
  compiling MUMPS source routines so I would expect no special
 surprizes due to the shift
  from X86 on FreeBSD to PPC on OS/X.
  
 
 Why can't the complier generate the correct machine code for the RISK
 ? 
 Is binary outputs embedded into the source code of GM.T?
 
 Ruben
 
 
 
 
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--Kent Beck








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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread whitten

 Greg said: 
   Unlike GT.M, it does not generate machine language in
  compiling MUMPS source routines so I would expect no special surprizes due 
  to the shift
  from X86 on FreeBSD to PPC on OS/X.
  
 
 Why can't the complier generate the correct machine code for the RISK ? 
 Is binary outputs embedded into the source code of GM.T?
 
 Ruben

The GT.M compiler for the RISC architecture does generate correct machine
code. As I understand it, the GT.M compiler generates an intermediate
code which is stored in the .o files, and then has a Just-In-Time 
Native code generator to produce the machine code that is actually run.

By the way, it is this Native code that bloats each user process's memory
profile. If the Native Code were stored in the .o files, it would lower
the memory footprint at the cost of requiring the GT.M compiler to be able
to handle every operating system's native object format.

We (collectively) have the code for GT.M on x86 Linux, if we don't want
to just find enough economic support for Macs to convince Fidelity that
it is a good investment, we could just do the port to Macs ourselves.
As busy as I personally stay, I'd probably be in favour of the economic
support theory, which I will support as I can, even if the community 
chooses the best way would be to just to have a bake sale.

David Whitten
(713) 870-3834



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Re: GTM on OSX WAS: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

Is MUMPS + VistA used on any other big endian machine?
Just curious. 

J.


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Re: GTM on OSX WAS: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread whitten

 
 Is MUMPS + VistA used on any other big endian machine?
 Just curious.=20
 
 J.

I don't recall if the Data General or IBM 360/370 machines were
big endian. MUMPS has run on so many machines that I feel confident
that it has run on as many variations of computers as you wish.

No one to my knowledge has tried VistA on all of the varieties of
machines supported by Cache and GT.M, however I expect it can
run on all of them.  MUMPS code very rarely deals with anything
at the level of big-endian and little-endian. The ANSI/ISO standard 
pretty much is written to make it very difficult for a Standard MUMPS
routine to be able to tell.  In fact, a MUMPS program isn't even supposed
to be able to tell if the characters used are stored internally in
ASCII or EBCDIC. Handling numbers for character values greater than 127 
requires a different characterset profile, so Unicode might be able to
be detected.

David


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RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 16:58 -0700, Jim Self wrote:
 Ruben wrote:
   Unlike GT.M, it does not generate machine language in
  compiling MUMPS source routines so I would expect no special surprizes due 
  to the shift
  from X86 on FreeBSD to PPC on OS/X.
 
 
 Why can't the complier generate the correct machine code for the RISC ?
 Is binary outputs embedded into the source code of GM.T?
 
 Yes (essentially), GT.M includes a MUMPS compiler that generates machine 
 language for the
 target processor that it runs on. GT.M for Linux/x86 has a virtual machine 
 model with
 specifics for x86. Other GT.M implementations (not Free yet) target other 
 processors and
 it might be that a model for PPC could be easily added by someone familiar 
 with that
 processor.

Does this mean its going to have trouble to run on 64 bit arch?

Ruben




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Re: GTM on OSX WAS: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Gregory Woodhouse

I'm fairly certain the Alpha is big endian. In fact, I think pretty  
much everything except Intel is big endian.


===
Gregory Woodhouse
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

It is foolish to answer a question that
you do not understand.
--G. Polya (How to Solve It)


On Aug 22, 2005, at 7:15 PM, jae kim wrote:


Is MUMPS + VistA used on any other big endian machine?
Just curious.

J.





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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Gregory Woodhouse

Actually, the problems are a lot more severe than the issue of 32 vs.  
64 bit architectures. MUMPS is very free in allowing execution of  
strings built at runtime (much like LISP). Think about how you might  
go about compiling LISP to native code without relying on any sort of  
abstract (virtual) machine.


===
Gregory Woodhouse
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Nothing is as powerful than an idea
whose time has come.
-- Victor Hugo


On Aug 22, 2005, at 8:30 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:


On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 16:58 -0700, Jim Self wrote:


Ruben wrote:


 Unlike GT.M, it does not generate machine language in
compiling MUMPS source routines so I would expect no special  
surprizes due to the shift

from X86 on FreeBSD to PPC on OS/X.




Why can't the complier generate the correct machine code for the  
RISC ?

Is binary outputs embedded into the source code of GM.T?



Yes (essentially), GT.M includes a MUMPS compiler that generates  
machine language for the
target processor that it runs on. GT.M for Linux/x86 has a virtual  
machine model with
specifics for x86. Other GT.M implementations (not Free yet)  
target other processors and
it might be that a model for PPC could be easily added by someone  
familiar with that

processor.



Does this mean its going to have trouble to run on 64 bit arch?

Ruben







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Re: GTM on OSX WAS: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

yes, i think so. I liked big-endian better because my
Fortran code never had to see Intel chip. Later I had to
write some apps to convert big-endian data (Irix) to be read
in little-endian supercomputer.

Just googled this:
http://www.intersystems.com/cache/downloads/documentation/cache5docs/PDFS/ACVE_UsingCVEndian.pdf

so, it (Cache) can be run on both big- and little-endian machines
but the database file itself
has to be converted first, if someone wants to read patient A's
file from hospital Y's Sparc by hospital Z's Windows XP server.
Somebody should write the code so converting to the different
endianism (reading files from different endian machine)
can be set up as a parameter at the execution time,
negating the above tool.
Sorry for the nagging... intersystem...

Jae.

On 8/22/05, Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm fairly certain the Alpha is big endian. In fact, I think pretty
much everything except Intel is big endian.

===
Gregory Woodhouse
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

It is foolish to answer a question that
you do not understand.
--G. Polya (How to Solve It)

On Aug 22, 2005, at 7:15 PM, jae kim wrote:

Is MUMPS + VistA used on any other big endian machine?
Just curious.

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Re: GTM on OSX WAS: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

ugghh, I didn't know the other thread was talking
about reading files by M. It must be the longest thread,
69 emails so far. anyway, I stopped reading it after about 20.
i'll wait until all the smart people figure out how to handle
millions of patients worth of data file to convert from
32 bit big-endian to 64 bit little-endian machine.

On 8/22/05, jae kim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
yes, i think so. I liked big-endian better because my
Fortran code never had to see Intel chip. Later I had to
write some apps to convert big-endian data (Irix) to be read
in little-endian supercomputer.

Just googled this:
http://www.intersystems.com/cache/downloads/documentation/cache5docs/PDFS/ACVE_UsingCVEndian.pdf

Jae.

On 8/22/05, Gregory Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm fairly certain the Alpha is big endian. In fact, I think pretty
much everything except Intel is big endian.

===
Gregory Woodhouse
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

It is foolish to answer a question that
you do not understand.
--G. Polya (How to Solve It)

On Aug 22, 2005, at 7:15 PM, jae kim wrote:

Is MUMPS + VistA used on any other big endian machine?
Just curious.

Re: GTM on OSX WAS: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread Gregory Woodhouse

Actually, I think you may be confusing a couple of issues here (or  
maybe not). A 64-bit platform operates on data in 64-bit chunks at  
the instruction set level. When you load a value from main memory  
into a register, it is a 64-bit value that you load. When you add two  
integers, it is 64-bit integers that you add. How data is stored on  
disk is a separate issue.

===
Gregory Woodhouse
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but  
when there is nothing left to take away.

-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

On Aug 22, 2005, at 9:27 PM, jae kim wrote:


ugghh, I didn't know the other thread was talking
about reading files by M. It must be the longest thread,
69 emails so far. anyway, I stopped reading it after about 20.
i'll wait until all the smart people figure out how to handle
millions of patients worth of data file to convert from
32 bit big-endian to 64 bit little-endian machine.

j.





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Re: GTM on OSX WAS: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 00:44, Gregory Woodhouse wrote:
 Actually, I think you may be confusing a couple of issues here (or  
 maybe not). A 64-bit platform operates on data in 64-bit chunks at  
 the instruction set level. When you load a value from main memory  
 into a register, it is a 64-bit value that you load. When you add two  
 integers, it is 64-bit integers that you add. How data is stored on  
 disk is a separate issue.

Gotchya, but don't they also have a different instruction set when the
code is moved and read from ram?  Or is the CPU reading 8 bit
instructions (or do I need to crack that assembeler book again)

Ruben

 ===
 Gregory Woodhouse
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but  
 when there is nothing left to take away.
 -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
 
 On Aug 22, 2005, at 9:27 PM, jae kim wrote:
 
  ugghh, I didn't know the other thread was talking
  about reading files by M. It must be the longest thread,
  69 emails so far. anyway, I stopped reading it after about 20.
  i'll wait until all the smart people figure out how to handle
  millions of patients worth of data file to convert from
  32 bit big-endian to 64 bit little-endian machine.
 
  j.
 
 
 
 
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Re: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 23:49, Gregory Woodhouse wrote:
 Actually, the problems are a lot more severe than the issue of 32 vs.  
 64 bit architectures. MUMPS is very free in allowing execution of  
 strings built at runtime (much like LISP). Think about how you might  
 go about compiling LISP to native code without relying on any sort of  
 abstract (virtual) machine.
 

Ugh

I hate the security implications of this as well.  Random user code
being interpreted and then executed.not cool without a ton of
restraints.

Ruben

 ===
 Gregory Woodhouse
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Nothing is as powerful than an idea
 whose time has come.
 -- Victor Hugo
 
 
 On Aug 22, 2005, at 8:30 PM, Ruben Safir wrote:
 
  On Mon, 2005-08-22 at 16:58 -0700, Jim Self wrote:
 
  Ruben wrote:
 
   Unlike GT.M, it does not generate machine language in
  compiling MUMPS source routines so I would expect no special  
  surprizes due to the shift
  from X86 on FreeBSD to PPC on OS/X.
 
 
 
  Why can't the complier generate the correct machine code for the  
  RISC ?
  Is binary outputs embedded into the source code of GM.T?
 
 
  Yes (essentially), GT.M includes a MUMPS compiler that generates  
  machine language for the
  target processor that it runs on. GT.M for Linux/x86 has a virtual  
  machine model with
  specifics for x86. Other GT.M implementations (not Free yet)  
  target other processors and
  it might be that a model for PPC could be easily added by someone  
  familiar with that
  processor.
 
 
  Does this mean its going to have trouble to run on 64 bit arch?
 
  Ruben
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: GTM on OSX WAS: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

2005-08-22 Thread chuck5566

I certainly intend to stay with OS X as long as it's practical to do  
so, and I know that there is a contingent of clinicians out there  
that would very much prefer to not give up their Macs.


I'd like to request a separately mailing list for us Mac fanatics so  
that we don't bore the snot out of the rest of you.


I had started to looking at porting the RPC client code to OS X, but  
now I've been enchanted by the Siren Song of the Widget.  :-)




On Aug 22, 2005, at 6:58 PM, David Sommers wrote:

I believe the issue was related to compiler specific  
optimizations in
the C implementation of the M compiler.  Bhaskar's been quiet  
lately but

we've discussed this on the list before.  I was interested because I
simply love my MAC.

Even though I'm about to paste in part of the discussion to port, I
think we should just wait.  Apple will switch to x86 next year and  
they

will more than likely follow in the footsteps of Sun - by providing a
run-time library that can execute linux compiled code natively.  On  
top
of that, FreeBSD so closely matches that Apple documents the  
differences

easily enough to scope the port:

http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Darwin/Conceptual/ 
KernelProgram

ming/BSD/chapter_11_section_3.html


Here's a piece of our previous discussion...

--

On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 01:46 -0500, chuck5566 wrote:


Agree wholeheartedly, Chris.  I would suggest:

 1st - Determining that level of interest, and where it's at.
  Are people really interested in a GT.M for OS X,
  or would clients on OS X that could converse
  with GT.M and the RPC broker (on a Linux box
  elsewhere) be enough?  Or both?
  Might be time for a Hardhats-OSX list.



[KSB] Since there is a GT.M (non open source; non free) for IBM  
eServer

pSeries (nee RS/6000) AIX, a port to Mac OS X from this would be
straightforward, but would need to be performed by Fidelity.

A port to Mac OS X from GT.M on x86 GNU/Linux (open source  free)  
would

require retargeting the M compiler (the database would just go over,
since it vanilla UNIX for the most part).  So, creating a client would
be almost as much work as porting GT.M.



  2nd - If the interest for GT.M on OS X is sufficient, I'd


first


straighten out the legalities before starting any
work or even looking for funding.

Chuck



GT.M on x86 GNU/Linux is released under the GNU General Public License
(GPL).  If it is used to port GT.M to Mac OS X by anyone other than
Fidelity, then the resulting work would be covered by the GPL, and is
best released under the GPL.

-- Bhaskar

--


David Sommers, Architect  |  Dialog Medical

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of  
Greg

Woodhouse
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 7:15 PM
To: hardhats-members@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: RE: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions

No, the issue is that it's necessary to compile MUMPS (not C). In
principle, there's no reason why it can't be done.

--- Ruben Safir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 Unlike GT.M, it does not generate machine language in
compiling MUMPS source routines so I would expect no special


surprizes due to the shift


from X86 on FreeBSD to PPC on OS/X.




Why can't the complier generate the correct machine code for the RISK
?
Is binary outputs embedded into the source code of GM.T?

Ruben




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--Kent Beck








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Re: GTM on OSX WAS: [Hardhats-members] more M read questions