Re: [Fonts] [I18n] language tags in fontconfig
KP While I've never seen ñ in my limited exposure to French, Neither have I (with over 20 years exposure to the language). I suggest you remove it -- it's not in the Adobe Standard encoding, so some fonts may lack it. KP The only questionable thing I believe I've done is to eliminate the OE KP ligatures and Y with diaeresis from the French list -- those aren't in KP Latin 1, and I wanted to permit Latin-1 fonts to be marked as supporting KP French. The oe ligatures are needed, and they are in both Adobe Standard and CP 1252 -- hence, both Type 1 and TrueType fonts should contain them; I suggest you add them back. Never mind Y-dieresis, on the other hand I can only think of one place name with a y-dieresis. Juliusz ___ I18n mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/i18n
Re: [Fonts] [I18n] language tags in fontconfig
Around 17 o'clock on Aug 12, Juliusz Chroboczek wrote: Neither have I (with over 20 years exposure to the language). I suggest you remove it -- it's not in the Adobe Standard encoding, so some fonts may lack it. Ok, I've found further references that don't include ñ for French. Here's my current list of non-ASCII glyphs: 00C0 # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH GRAVE 00C2 # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A WITH CIRCUMFLEX 00E0 # LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH GRAVE 00E2 # LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH CIRCUMFLEX 00C7 # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C WITH CEDILLA 00E7 # LATIN SMALL LETTER C WITH CEDILLA 00C8 # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E WITH GRAVE 00E8 # LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH GRAVE 00C9 # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E WITH ACUTE 00E9 # LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE 00CA # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E WITH CIRCUMFLEX 00EA # LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH CIRCUMFLEX 00CB # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E WITH DIAERESIS 00EB # LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH DIAERESIS 00CE # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I WITH CIRCUMFLEX 00EE # LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH CIRCUMFLEX 00CF # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I WITH DIAERESIS 00EF # LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH DIAERESIS 00D4 # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH CIRCUMFLEX 00F4 # LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH CIRCUMFLEX 0152 # LATIN CAPITAL LIGATURE OE 0153 # LATIN SMALL LIGATURE OE 00D9 # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U WITH GRAVE 00F9 # LATIN SMALL LETTER U WITH GRAVE 00DB # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U WITH CIRCUMFLEX 00FB # LATIN SMALL LETTER U WITH CIRCUMFLEX 00DC # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U WITH DIAERESIS 00FC # LATIN SMALL LETTER U WITH DIAERESIS 0178 # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y WITH DIAERESIS 00FF # LATIN SMALL LETTER Y WITH DIAERESIS 00C6 # LATIN CAPITAL LETTER AE (ash) * 00E6 # LATIN SMALL LETTER AE (ash) * ___ I18n mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/i18n
Re: [Fonts] [I18n] language tags in fontconfig
Hi, [As a disclaimer, I have only followed this discussion from afar, and my reply may actually be off-topic. If this is the case, please disregard my post ! I'm just trying to advocate the importance of oe ligature here :) ] While I've never seen ñ in my limited exposure to French, I don't find it impossible to believe that it occurs in some limited contexts, perhaps for place names along the border with Spain? As I come from the northern part of France, I may be mistaken, but I don't think there is any case where a _French_ word or proper noun is written with ñ (El Niño might, actually). It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen that we use Spanish words, but then they are clearly foreign words (if they are borrowed into the language, they would probably loose the tilde...). But then, we would need to consider the whole latin-1 set to be part of French. The only questionable thing I believe I've done is to eliminate the OE ligatures and Y with diaeresis from the French list -- those aren't in Latin 1, and I wanted to permit Latin-1 fonts to be marked as supporting French. ¾ (upper y with diaeresis) is not used that much. It only appears in a few proper nouns, if I remember correctly - it's still part of French, but most people don't even know it can appear. ½/¼ (oe/OE ligature) however appears in quite a few common words (like ½uf («oeuf», egg), s½ur («soeur», sister), ½uvre («oeuvre», [artistic] work), etc.). Although it's true that due to iso-8859-1 (and before that DOS codepages) deficiency, some people are used to the wrong spelling, not requiring the ½ to be included in default font selection would lead people that don't particularly configure their font selection mechanism to be unable to read properly written French texts. It will also hint translators in the wrong direction, as they would not be able to use the proper letter, since they cannot assure that, by default, fonts used to write French contain the correct glyph. Also, quite a few persons consider that fonts only encoding iso-8859-1 glyphs are not suitable to use for French anyway (probably not everybody, though I guess those who don't won't really care about properly spelled and accentuated French either). Note that none of this prohibits applications and users from explicitly selecting a font which is inappropriate for their current locale or document language -- explicit family names are now given greater weight than language matching when selecting fonts. Does that mean that in order to read properly French (even those people who only do that from time to time - not necessarily French speaking people), it is _necessary_ to configure specifically your own system ? Doesn't it kind of defeat the very purpose you're trying to accomplish ? I hope this will help the discussion :) I didn't mean to be negative here ! Patrice -- Patrice Hédé email: patrice hede à islande org www : http://www.islande.org/ ___ I18n mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/i18n
Re: [Fonts] [I18n] language tags in fontconfig
Around 21 o'clock on Jul 8, Patrice =?ISO-8859-15?B?SOlk6Q==?= wrote: not requiring the ? to be included in default font selection would lead people that don't particularly configure their font selection mechanism to be unable to read properly written French texts. It's important to remember that this would never be the case; at the very worst, people with very limited font selections might end up having the non-Latin 1 codepoints come from another font. That's very undesirable. I guess the question is whether it would be better to prefer fonts which support the entire French orthgraphy over fonts which are missing these few characters when applications don't provide an explicit family name. It sounds like the answer to this is yes, so I should add the non Latin-1 codepoints to the set required to display French. Keith PackardXFree86 Core TeamHP Cambridge Research Lab ___ I18n mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/i18n
Re: [Fonts] [I18n] language tags in fontconfig
Keith Packard wrote: I got the European coverage information from http://www.everytype.com/alphabets I can't find www.everytype.com in the DNS, is that a typo ? I'm curious because I can't understand the differences between xc/lib/fontconfig/fc-lang/en.orth and xc/lib/fontconfig/fc-lang/fr.orth In particular I remember 00e1 (a acute/Ã)¡ but not00f1 (n tilda/Ã) from my French lessons. -- Dr. Andrew C. Aitchison Computer Officer, DPMMS, Cambridge [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.dpmms.cam.ac.uk/~werdna ___ I18n mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/i18n
Re: [Fonts] [I18n] language tags in fontconfig
At 10:34 AM 7/7/02 +0100, Dr Andrew C Aitchison wrote: Keith Packard wrote: I got the European coverage information from http://www.everytype.com/alphabets I can't find www.everytype.com in the DNS, is that a typo ? Try http://www.evertype.com/alphabets/index.html I'm curious because I can't understand the differences between xc/lib/fontconfig/fc-lang/en.orth and xc/lib/fontconfig/fc-lang/fr.orth My question here is, since it's clear that fr.orth was written with an eye to supporting Latin-1 fonts, why wasn't en.orth written to support ASCII fonts? I have quite a few fonts that were made for English use and only cover ASCII, and using that ASCII subset, even in places where Latin-1 is available, is quite common. ___ I18n mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/i18n
Re: [Fonts] [I18n] language tags in fontconfig
Around 11 o'clock on Jul 7, David Starner wrote: My question here is, since it's clear that fr.orth was written with an eye to supporting Latin-1 fonts, why wasn't en.orth written to support ASCII fonts? I have quite a few fonts that were made for English use and only cover ASCII, and using that ASCII subset, even in places where Latin-1 is available, is quite common. That's a fine question; I did prune the non-Latin1 glyphs from fr.orth to match existing Latin1 fonts, but I left the non-ASCII glyphs in the coverage because I have no ASCII-only fonts and didn't realize there still were some in the wild. I suppose that was rather naïve of me. Keith PackardXFree86 Core TeamHP Cambridge Research Lab ___ I18n mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/i18n
Re: [Fonts] [I18n] language tags in fontconfig
At 11:46 AM 7/7/02 -0700, Keith Packard wrote: That's a fine question; I did prune the non-Latin1 glyphs from fr.orth to match existing Latin1 fonts, but I left the non-ASCII glyphs in the coverage because I have no ASCII-only fonts and didn't realize there still were some in the wild. I suppose that was rather naïve of me. Most professional fonts may include Latin-1, but many amateur fonts only include ASCII, and that doesn't look like it's stopping. Cumberland Fontworks, for example, is a site that releases a number of fonts with only ASCIIish character sets. As most Americans can't access those letters from their keyboard (ALT-foobar unknown and clumsy), I doubt it would be that big a deal to most people. ___ I18n mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://XFree86.Org/mailman/listinfo/i18n
