[Ironpython-users] Meta-Questions (Was: Commercial Support / Bugfixes for Ironpython)

2012-10-24 Thread Markus Schaber 
Hi,



Just three Meta-Topics:



Does this list prefer the "Internet"-style (Plain-Text, and the replies 
interleaved with the quoted paragraphs), or "Outlook"-style (HTML/RTF and TOFU)?



When googling for "IronPython Mailing List", the first hit is 
http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com - but this list 
seems to be replaced by the new one from python.org since 2011. While I like 
the fact that the old archives are still online, I'd suggest that you add some 
explanation and link on that page (maybe in the "About Users" part at the top) 
which points to the new list at python.org.



And it seems that there is no form of commercial support or contracted 
development available for IronPython and the DLR right now, correct?


Best regards

Markus Schaber
-



> Von: Curt Hagenlocher [mailto:[email protected]]

> > Von: Markus Schaber

> > > Von: Curt Hagenlocher [mailto:[email protected]]





> > > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Markus Schaber 
> > > > mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

> > > > > Is it possible to hire some of the IronPython Core developers for 
> > > > > bugfixes, or is there commercial support available?





> > > > > Especially http://ironpython.codeplex.com/workitem/31764 is a major 
> > > > > issue for some of our users, they fight with Out of Memory exceptions 
> > > > > during automated test runs which fire hundreds of IronPython scripts.

> > > > > For us, it might be cheaper and faster to pay an expert for this 
> > > > > task, than trying to solve it on our own.

> > > > This doesn't directly address your question, but as I recall,

> DefineDynamicAssembly is only used under very particular circumstances. It

> can be avoided most of the time in non-debug usage of IronPython. The only

> way to release some of the memory usage forced by DefineDynamicAssembly is

> to tear down the AppDomain and create a new one. This is a CLR issue.

> > > > Disclaimer: I haven't worked on this code in about three years.

> > > Thank you for your answer. Maybe it is possible to utlilise the

> Collectible Assemblies introduced with .NET 4.0





> (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd554932%28v=vs.100%29.aspx) -

> they should be fully GC-able...

> > > We can also live with an explicit "Dispose()"-Method to clean up

> artifacts of old scripts, if that helps further...

> > I don't want to make it sound like I know more than I do; the discussion

> on work item 20399 makes it clear that I don't accurately remember all of

> the specifics around this issue. But I do recall that we looked at using

> collectible assemblies and decided against it. We were still committed to

> supporting .NET 2.0 at the time, so that was one factor. But the real

> problem is having a realistic idea of when to stop emitting methods into

> assembly 1 and start emitting them into assembly 2. Having small

> granularity -- too many assemblies -- is a bad thing (for reasons I no

> longer remember). But putting too many methods into a single assembly

> increases the chance that the assembly will never be collected because one

> of its types are still in use.

>

> > Running each independent script in its own AppDomain is painful and may

> have performance consequences. But ultimately, it gives you the best

> control over resource management.

> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 9:16 AM, Markus Schaber 
> mailto:[email protected]>

> software.com> wrote:

>

> In our case, it would be possible to use one collectible assembly for one

> ScriptEngine.

>

> Using a separate AppDomain would endanger compatibility with 3rd-party

> plugins providing functionality to the plugins - they need to update to

> MarshalByRefObject or serializable objects, and we usually have strict

> backwards guarantees. But maybe that's the only really workable way. (And

> maybe we find a way to dynamically create and transparently inject

> MarshalByRefObject-Wrappers into our official script interfaces.)

>

> Just a total different thought, though:

>

> Right now, we create a different ScriptEngine for most script runs. The

> reason is that we want to have a clean environment for each script,

> without any artifacts from the previous script run.

>

> Maybe there is a more lightweight approach to achieve this goal. Is there

> a way to (re-)create such clean environments using the same script engine?

> (I hope that this could give us the advantage of re-using the generated

> code when the same script is re-run, or the same module is re-imported -

> reducing the leak to a bloat.)

>

> Just using a new ScriptScope seems not to be enough, AFAICS, as - for

> example - sys.modules needs to be re-set (and the modules contents

> themselves might have been manipulated by the scripts after importing

> them).

>

> A clean way to "Reset" an existing ScriptEngine would be at least a

> partial solution - this way, we still would need several Engines (for

Re: [Ironpython-users] Meta-Questions (Was: Commercial Support / Bugfixes for Ironpython)

2012-10-24 Thread Jeff Hardy 
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Markus Schaber
 wrote:
> Hi,
> Just three Meta-Topics:
>
> Does this list prefer the “Internet“-style (Plain-Text, and the replies
> interleaved with the quoted paragraphs), or “Outlook”-style (HTML/RTF and
> TOFU)?

Personally, I prefer plain-text, inline replies. The difference in
readability between OSS lists that follow that style vs. MS lists
where everyone uses Outlook are night and day. There is no official
list policy, though.

> When googling for “IronPython Mailing List”, the first hit is
> http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com - but this
> list seems to be replaced by the new one from python.org since 2011. While I
> like the fact that the old archives are still online, I’d suggest that you
> add some explanation and link on that page (maybe in the “About Users” part
> at the top) which points to the new list at python.org.

Good catch. The python.org list contains a complete copy of the
archives as well. Looking at them, the message IDs are the same, so it
should be possible to forward the old URLs as well. The old list
server is run by Jim Hugunin, so I'll ping him and see what the
options are.

> And it seems that there is no form of commercial support or contracted
> development available for IronPython and the DLR right now, correct?

As far as I know, no. The people with the knowledge to maintain it all
have full-time jobs. I would love it if one of the contributors was a
contractor who could pick up jobs like that, but no such luck.

- Jeff
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Re: [Ironpython-users] Meta-Questions (Was: Commercial Support / Bugfixes for Ironpython)

2012-10-24 Thread Markus Schaber 
Hi, Jeff,

Von: Jeff Hardy [mailto:[email protected]]
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Markus Schaber  
> wrote:
> > Does this list prefer the "Internet"-style (Plain-Text, and the
> > replies interleaved with the quoted paragraphs), or "Outlook"-style
> > (HTML/RTF and TOFU)?
> 
> Personally, I prefer plain-text, inline replies. The difference in
> readability between OSS lists that follow that style vs. MS lists where
> everyone uses Outlook are night and day. There is no official list policy,
> though.

I'll try to stick to that standard, then. :-)
 
> > When googling for "IronPython Mailing List", the first hit is
> > http://lists.ironpython.com/listinfo.cgi/users-ironpython.com - but
> > this list seems to be replaced by the new one from python.org since
> > 2011. While I like the fact that the old archives are still online,
> > I'd suggest that you add some explanation and link on that page (maybe
> > in the "About Users" part at the top) which points to the new list at
> > python.org.
> 
> Good catch. The python.org list contains a complete copy of the archives
> as well. Looking at them, the message IDs are the same, so it should be
> possible to forward the old URLs as well. The old list server is run by
> Jim Hugunin, so I'll ping him and see what the options are.

Thanks!

> > And it seems that there is no form of commercial support or contracted
> > development available for IronPython and the DLR right now, correct?
> 
> As far as I know, no. The people with the knowledge to maintain it all
> have full-time jobs. I would love it if one of the contributors was a
> contractor who could pick up jobs like that, but no such luck.

Maybe one of the companies currently employing one of those people would accept 
such contracts?

But it seems the only way to get our problem solved is me digging deep into the 
depths of IronPython and the DLR.

I don't fear that dragon itself, but we're just afraid that it will need to 
much time, to be measured in weeks or months instead of days.


Best regards

Markus Schaber
-- 
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Re: [Ironpython-users] Meta-Questions (Was: Commercial Support / Bugfixes for Ironpython)

2012-10-24 Thread Jeff Hardy 
On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Markus Schaber
 wrote:
> But it seems the only way to get our problem solved is me digging deep into 
> the depths of IronPython and the DLR.
>
> I don't fear that dragon itself, but we're just afraid that it will need to 
> much time, to be measured in weeks or months instead of days.

This might help getting started:
http://www.aosabook.org/en/ironlang.html. Otherwise, just ask. Dino
knows the most about it, and I'm trying to cobble together what I can.
The best advice I have is to jump in and try to fix something.

- Jeff
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Re: [Ironpython-users] Meta-Questions (Was: Commercial Support / Bugfixes for Ironpython)

2012-10-24 Thread Markus Schaber 
Hi, Jeff,

Von: Jeff Hardy [mailto:[email protected]]
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 8:09 AM, Markus Schaber  software.com> wrote:
> > But it seems the only way to get our problem solved is me digging deep
> > into the depths of IronPython and the DLR.
> >
> > I don't fear that dragon itself, but we're just afraid that it will need
> > to much time, to be measured in weeks or months instead of days.
> 
> This might help getting started:
> http://www.aosabook.org/en/ironlang.html. Otherwise, just ask. Dino knows
> the most about it, and I'm trying to cobble together what I can.
> The best advice I have is to jump in and try to fix something.

Thanks for the hint - currently, I'm reading the dlr-overview.pdf.


Best regards

Markus Schaber
-- 
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Markus Schaber | Developer
Memminger Str. 151 | 87439 Kempten | Germany | Tel. +49-831-54031-0 | Fax 
+49-831-54031-50

Email: [email protected] | Web: http://www.3s-software.com 
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