Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Blog Post: Java is deliberately not programmer-orientated
of casts. You can tweak generics a bit, declaration-site generics probably being the most drastic, but a truly simple generics will never be, because co/contravariance isn't simple. So, did java become more complex when 1.5 was introduced? Yes. Does this mean java 1.5 is worse than 1.4? No - in fact, it's better. So, in certain ways, a more complex language is actually a good thing. Hence my conclusion that all this talk about complexity is not going to convince anybody one way or another, because its very very easy for anyone reading the word complexity and imagine whatever situation ... read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Bye Bye Miss American Java
White Zombie isn't too far On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Christian Catchpole christ...@catchpole.net wrote: I am the Compile-Time-Creep A deprecation style Hello-world american freak I am the compiling dead A phantom-reference in a sandbox Drop-shadow in your head Say GUID suicide Freedom of the cast Read the stack-trace lines Scratch off the broken code Tear into my JAR make me do IT again, yeah Yeah yeah yeah yeah More Maven Than Maven More Maven Than Maven More Maven Than Maven More Maven Than Maven More Maven Than Maven More Maven Than Maven ok. i've got too far. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: JDK 7 (as currently defined) delayed to mid 2012
Just because you don't like the taste of broccoli doesn't mean it isn't good for you. Remove the negations and enjoy the broccoli! Viktor Klang Code Connoisseur www.akkasource.com On Sep 9, 2010, at 8:28, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote: I still have some hope for Fantom because I don't think it crossed that threshold yet, but it's getting dangerously close to it. What speaks to Fantom's advantage is it's dynamic typing feature, something Scala ignores completely - in spite of various luminaries view that the static and dynamic world will inevitably merge down to opt-in semantics. Unfortunately Scala seems to run with all the attention, regardless of the bad taste in the mouth it leaves with lot of people. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: JDK 7 (as currently defined) delayed to mid 2012
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 9:20 AM, Ricky Clarkson ricky.clark...@gmail.comwrote: Just because you like the taste of broccoli does mean it is good for you.? Can I apply this to caramel too? Absolutely :-) Ricky. -- Ricky Clarkson Java and Scala Programmer, AD Holdings +44 1928 706373 Skype: ricky_clarkson On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 7:43 AM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: Just because you don't like the taste of broccoli doesn't mean it isn't good for you. Remove the negations and enjoy the broccoli! Viktor Klang Code Connoisseur www.akkasource.com On Sep 9, 2010, at 8:28, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote: I still have some hope for Fantom because I don't think it crossed that threshold yet, but it's getting dangerously close to it. What speaks to Fantom's advantage is it's dynamic typing feature, something Scala ignores completely - in spite of various luminaries view that the static and dynamic world will inevitably merge down to opt-in semantics. Unfortunately Scala seems to run with all the attention, regardless of the bad taste in the mouth it leaves with lot of people. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Software patents vs the economy
2010/9/9 Cédric Beust ♔ ced...@beust.com On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.comwrote: For example, John Schmoe American might have a great idea, but he doesn't have the $80,000 up-front to pay a patent firm to check if the idea will run afoul of any patents. It costs $120 to file a provisional patent and about $8,000-$10,000 in attorney fees to actually file it. Nothing to scoff at, but a far cry from the $80,000 you quote (wondering where you got that number from). Cedric, plese re-read Reiniers post. Of course, it's free if you decide to write it and file it yourself (although you might want to buy one of the many books that explains how to do it right). -- Cédric -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: JDK 7 (as currently defined) delayed to mid 2012
On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 9/8/10 19:11 , Mario Fusco wrote: Hi Ricky, if you read the subject of my first email I wrote exactly the same. Mid 2012 as currently defined. What Mark calls plan B is to delivery the JDK 7 in mid 2011 but without Lambda, Jigsaw and part of Coin. That means it won't have any of the features they promised. To me this is unacceptable as well. There are a few things that I don't understand. Well, that JDK 7 delays doesn't surprise me either, considering the mess that was already started under the last months of the Sun management. In particular, the way closures were brought again on the carpet, without a clear idea of what to do, was worrying. So, my question: 1. I thought that Jigsaw was pretty complete, and project Coin pretty simple. So, what are the things preventing them from being ready soon? 2. Why did Lambda restarted the discussion from scratch, just to realize that there's nothing concrete, when there were already two proposals that as far as I understand were formulated in very good details? In any case, for what I see every day, none of my customers will be minimally worried about that. But it will be another burst of FUD and going on like that I don't know I'll be able to survive to the end of the year :-( Unless I stop reading blogs and mailing list, and I go out taking photos instead :-) Which might sounds as a good idea. PS Scala guys should realize that this event is really putting a lot of pressure on the Scala community. Now you have a window of 1.5 years: if Scala doesn't manage to get popular before Java 7 is released, there won't any more chances for Scala. It would mean that people really don't care a bit about closures, lambda stuff and all the other Scala stuff. I for one welcome our new Scala overlords - -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkyH4oMACgkQeDweFqgUGxdhCgCePV7HcPsavz0MwLqTxkCheohy LjMAn1B2046kk1BCThyc3myjaeyGCKif =n0GT -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Software patents vs the economy
Guys, what are you hoping to accomplish with this discussion? 2010/9/5 Cédric Beust ♔ ced...@beust.com On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 1:35 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.comwrote: Europe has no software patents. Clearly the lack of software patents does not stifle research budgets. Please reread my post. The question is whether the absence of software patents would allow for more or less innovations. In other words, is there more innovation in countries that don't have software patents than in countries that do. No matter how fast you want to answer this question, I'm saying it's really very hard to tell (and naïve observers would probably say that there is a lot more software innovation coming out of the US than in any other country). I grant you apple is doing a far better job at it, but I don't see what patent law has to do with this. You are confusing innovating and protecting your innovations. We're talking about the latter. You argue: If software patents didn't exist, companies may not bother with research. Well, nokia has the biggest budget and they live on an entire continent without software patents. They are bound by US software patent laws for anything they want to sell on the US continent, so I'm pretty sure that US software patent laws have a huge impact on their product decisions. There still is innovation, but there is no proof that the innovation that is happening is being boosted by the US patent system. I agree, but this goes both ways. There is no obvious proof that the absence of software patent laws would boost innovation either. For example, a large amount of startups don't patent anything, yet they appear to be one of the main drivers of innovation. 99% of these start ups fail. Those that do well have either good technology, good people or a good patent portfolio (which is very often the main driver in an acquisition decision). Again, please don't twist my words, I'm simply drawing your attention to the fact that abolishing software patent laws overnight would have a lot of negative effects that you don't seem to want to consider. I can point out a number of cases where patent law is actively stifling innovation Me as well, and if you know what I was doing at my previous job, you probably know exactly what I'm referring to. And yet, I see this debate in a much more nuanced way than you are. Maybe this should cause you to pause. Also, patent law basically doesn't cover china. Which so happens to be cheap knockoff central, so your main point there just doesn't add up at all. Well, let me ask you a simple question, then: do you think we see more software innovations coming from China or coming from the US? -- Cédric -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Software patents vs the economy
Agitator ;-) Viktor Klang Code Connoisseur www.akkasource.com On Sep 5, 2010, at 21:00, Joe Nuxoll (Java Posse) jnux...@gmail.com wrote: I so love reading these debates! Go on gentlemen! - Joe On Sep 5, 8:36 am, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: Guys, what are you hoping to accomplish with this discussion? 2010/9/5 Cédric Beust ♔ ced...@beust.com On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 1:35 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.comwrote: Europe has no software patents. Clearly the lack of software patents does not stifle research budgets. Please reread my post. The question is whether the absence of software patents would allow for more or less innovations. In other words, is there more innovation in countries that don't have software patents than in countries that do. No matter how fast you want to answer this question, I'm saying it's really very hard to tell (and naïve observers would probably say that there is a lot more software innovation coming out of the US than in any other country). I grant you apple is doing a far better job at it, but I don't see what patent law has to do with this. You are confusing innovating and protecting your innovations. We're talking about the latter. You argue: If software patents didn't exist, companies may not bother with research. Well, nokia has the biggest budget and they live on an entire continent without software patents. They are bound by US software patent laws for anything they want to sell on the US continent, so I'm pretty sure that US software patent laws have a huge impact on their product decisions. There still is innovation, but there is no proof that the innovation that is happening is being boosted by the US patent system. I agree, but this goes both ways. There is no obvious proof that the absence of software patent laws would boost innovation either. For example, a large amount of startups don't patent anything, yet they appear to be one of the main drivers of innovation. 99% of these start ups fail. Those that do well have either good technology, good people or a good patent portfolio (which is very often the main driver in an acquisition decision). Again, please don't twist my words, I'm simply drawing your attention to the fact that abolishing software patent laws overnight would have a lot of negative effects that you don't seem to want to consider. I can point out a number of cases where patent law is actively stifling innovation Me as well, and if you know what I was doing at my previous job, you probably know exactly what I'm referring to. And yet, I see this debate in a much more nuanced way than you are. Maybe this should cause you to pause. Also, patent law basically doesn't cover china. Which so happens to be cheap knockoff central, so your main point there just doesn't add up at all. Well, let me ask you a simple question, then: do you think we see more software innovations coming from China or coming from the US? -- Cédric -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Time For A Break
In Sweden everyones entitled to atleast 5 weeks paid time off. Viktor Klang Code Connoisseur www.akkasource.com On Sep 2, 2010, at 22:20, Robert Casto casto.rob...@gmail.com wrote: In the USA, it is the market that drives companies to give us days off. There are no laws specifically telling companies what they are supposed to offer. It is customary though to give time off in an effort to entice employees to work for them. The problem with switching companies is they make you start all over again with the time off. I've been working for 20 years in IT and still only get 2 weeks vacation. Last year I couldn't take any of it because they had me traveling all over the place and I couldn't get things worked out where I could take some time off. I work somewhere else now, but this was just a contributing factor, not the entire reason. On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Moandji Ezana mwa...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 6:26 PM, John Stager john.sta...@gmail.com wrote: For Ontario (my province) with get 10 public holidays on top of the vacation days that you receive from your employer. Lots of people have mentioned bank holidays. Isn't it obvious that you don't work on bank holidays (except in certain sectors, I guess)? And not replacing bank holidays that happen during the week-end seems miserly. Moandji -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Robert Casto www.robertcasto.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Management: For now Java is no longer an option for new development
On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Moandji Ezana mwa...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Roland Tepp luol...@gmail.com wrote: The only thing tying your Scala programs to JVM is your own use of Java libraries. And build tools, metrics tools, integration tools, IDEs, etc. SBT is written in Scala, TextMate w Scala bundles or emacs with ensime works as IDE. Now we're down to metrics and integration, what kind of integration do you need? A mere detail. Moandji -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: So Scala is too Complex?
2010/8/29 Cédric Beust ♔ ced...@beust.com On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.comwrote: no, No, NO Kojo is absolutely NOT an interpreter You can use full power of Scala's syntax and libraries within Kojo, it's an internal DSL THAT is the *entire* point! I understand that. This doesn't change the fact that Kojo doesn't teach you Scala. By that logic, teaching by example cannot work. -- Cédric -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: So Scala is too Complex?
On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.comwrote: *delete as appropriate I once considered [weight lifting at the gym/learning functional programming]* but, as I'm a [fairly skinny guy/pure OO programmer]* I decided that I didn't have any [muscles to build up in the first place/need for pure functions]* and so it wasn't suitable for me In fact, I've come to the conclusion that [FP/the gym]* is of limited use, and really wouldn't benefit everyone And it really is so very difficult, especially for some of my less-capable colleagues! I recently started to go to the gym, was more fun than I had expected, was there 4 hours ago, was nice. Now I do some FP. On 28 August 2010 14:55, Josh Berry tae...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/8/27 Cédric Beust ♔ ced...@beust.com On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 12:03 PM, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wrote: Myself, and the rest of the Scala evangelists on this list are going to great pains to point out that: no, actually, Scala is for everyone. Of course you realize that for the claim Scala is for everyone to be true, everybody needs to say so. And so far, only Scala evangelists do... How do you feel about this statement, in light of the learning tool Kojo and grade schoolers using it to learn programming? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Kevin Wright mail/google talk: kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wave: kev.lee.wri...@googlewave.com skype: kev.lee.wright twitter: @thecoda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: So Scala is too Complex?
On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Oscar Hsieh zen...@gmail.com wrote: Gosh .. I am sorry but are you saying that Scala is for the experts and Java for regular people like me??? Do you think that is the good way to promote Scala??? I hope you are wrong otherwise the future of Scala looks very grim. And of course a language can give you ALOT MORE than syntax sugar. Just read Reinier's email Now I have been trying to avoid Scala vs Java argument for a while but same people keep looking for same arguments over and over (its getting really annoyed). So let me ask you ... why on earth do you people think you need to trash Java in order to promote Scala? Scala runs on JVM damn it so even Scala does things better does not mean Java cannot do it. Boiler plate is not much of a problem when you use something like lombok to remove most of them. I am learning Scala at home and at work I use Java and Erlang. I never feel using one language over another can give me that much of an advantage, though the abundance of Java libraries and tools does make difference. I heard people saying Java is the next cobol or is dead, to me those are just fanboy talks and no offense but I hate any kind of fanboy. As far as I see Java is still dominating the dev world and will not be changed in the foreseeable future. By the way, before you think Scala will take over the world someone please fix the tools first. They suck bad and please dont tell me tools dont matter unless you want to go back to the stone age. Sorry Josh, the last paragraph is not targeted you Hello Oscar, for me it's all about productivity. I am more productive in Scala and I remain productive in Scala over time. It's a write less - do more - language for me. Also, learning Scala made me a better programmer overall, independent of language, because I learned new, different, ways of thinking and different ways of solving problems. It's not about the language, it's about you - you'll want a language that makes you a better you. Kind Regards On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 8:44 PM, Josh Berry tae...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 26, 4:53 pm, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.com wrote: If you think Pattern Matching counts as something you can do in scala but can't in java, I must not have made my argument clear. That's just syntax sugar. Nice syntax sugar, surely, but syntax sugar nonetheless. What I'm talking about, is things like: What else is a language, but the niceties the syntax gives you? You go on to list a ton of features that, yes I can get with Java. But using them doesn't suck with Scala. I think the analogies here have been wrong. Instead of comparing to other tools or toys, why not instruments? The JVM could be something akin to the guitar. Most people playing it are actually really good at reading tablature music, but not so much at reading sheet music. This actually works mostly well, as there is little that I think can't be written this way. In programming speak, tablature would be the typical boilerplate that Java requires with a very verbose your finger goes here kind of style. Some of us, though, want to move beyond tablature. To a place where we understand the intricacies of the abstractions we have in fact always been using. Hopefully to the point that we don't have to keep implementing these abstractions, but can instead simply describe them. (Instead of saying where the fingers go, as it were, simply describe what note should be played.) Does this mean that some people will have to learn more to read what we wrote? Almost undoubtedly. Just as to read a symphony I would have to learn to read sheet music. I can not see why this is a problem. I am not saying that it is beyond anyone. Just that they may have to learn a few things along the way. Hopefully I'll learn with them. :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: So Scala is too Complex?
And Haskell is Mindstorms? ;-) On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Mario Fusco mario.fu...@gmail.com wrote: I published my opinion on this argument here: http://java.dzone.com/articles/scala-complex-yes-and Anyway my advice is mostly to give a look at what Martin Odersky wrote about this debate: http://lamp.epfl.ch/~odersky/blogs/isscalacomplex.htmlhttp://lamp.epfl.ch/%7Eodersky/blogs/isscalacomplex.html I guess this could easily become the manifest of the Scala programmers. His arguments look quite similar to mine, but he presented them in a less complex and verbose (and somewhat more enjoyable) way. Could you expect something less from the father of Scala? :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: So Scala is too Complex?
, and the occasional WTF code. And that's not fixable by peddling the old just hire really good programmers spiel. I fully agree with that, but even the biggest genius has off days. That must be true because even I sometimes look back at code I wrote a few months ago and get the sudden urge to punch myself for being such an idiot :P To be honest you just made the argument for Scala and against Java. A language that cleans up a few things without falling into that trap might fare better but I fear the difference won't be convincing enough to make folks switch. Crappy catch 22 situation, that. In your opinion. Many other people have a very different opinion. If I can write what takes 500kloc of Java in 100kloc of Scala, then it is far more likely that the latter will be more comprehensible and therefore more maintainable. If it takes 50kloc of Python it is probably even better. NB: Also worth considering: No language EVER has become truly gigantic by offering nice syntax. Instead, the languages that won tended to offer really crappy syntax but provided something else, not related to syntax, that caused mass conversion. C did not attempt to abstract away the bare metal too much but did offer standardization across platforms. Java brought the garbage collector, very nice (at the time, at any rate) portable multithreading, and seamless freedom of moving to different hardware, seamless defined as relative to your options before it came out, all WITHOUT a radical new syntax. I think you should re-evaluate your knowledge of programming history: Machine code Assembly language Fortran / Cobol / Lisp Pascal C C++ / Smalltalk / Perl Java / Python A lot of syntax going on there. Almost all of it related to making a simple looking statement carry a very large amount of meaning. This is why I firmly believe the next big programming language has yet to be invented, and will involve a similarly crappy syntax, but offers language-level module systems, language evolvability, AST-based editing, compiler plugin based DSL enabling, extensive static analysis, and other such features that aren't intricately involved with Martin Odersky managing to remove another character from the partition method. Point 1, you owe Martin Odersky an apology for the slurs on his character you have made in this posting. Point 2, you are describing Scala, Groovy, JRuby on the JVM and Python, Ruby, D, Go, etc. off it. Well except for the static analysis in Groovy JRuby, Python, and Ruby. You are making the assumption that statically compiled programming languages are of more merit than dynamic ones. This may be your opinion, but I bet the majority of people have a different one, more along the lines of statically types and dynamically typed languages both have their place in developing a system. AST-based editing is a completely different issue. There were systems doing this available in 1985, but they were not deemed to be appropriate enough for proper software development environments, everything had to be files based. So the whole IDE industry rejected exactly that which was available and they are now having to reconstruct ASTs based on plain text files. Bizarre. I had thought of trying to write a shorter reply, but it is too early in the morning. -- Russel. === == Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200 voip: sip:russel.win...@ekiga.net sip%3arussel.win...@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Roadm: +44 7770 465 077 xmpp: rus...@russel.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK w:www.russel.org.uk skype: russel_winder signature.asc 1KViewDownload -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] So Scala is too Complex?
...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] So Scala is too Complex?
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Romain Pelisse bela...@gmail.com wrote:
I'm suprised that nobody notice that this example is pretty much irrelevant
(if not plain stupid).
Basically, you can write this in a very small manner in Scala just because
list object in Scala has a partition method). Most of the extra code in
Java is just about code the partition method. If you remove the part
regarding coding the partition method, the Java code pretty much look like
the Scala code.
The code behind partition:
http://lampsvn.epfl.ch/trac/scala/browser/scala/tags/R_2_8_0_final/src//library/scala/collection/TraversableLike.scala#L311
def partition(p: A = Boolean): (Repr, Repr) = {
val l, r = newBuilder
for (x - this) (if (p(x)) l else r) += x
(l.result, r.result)
}
A good example would be using the same set of provided functions on Scala
and in Java to resolve an issue.
On 25 August 2010 11:24, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote:
I think we first need to define complex, then we need to decide if it's
desirable or not.
Complex != complicated
The human body is _really_ complex, but I wouldn't want to trade that to
be something less complex, like a piece of wood.
On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Kevin Wright
kev.lee.wri...@gmail.comwrote:
I think our principles actually agree here, if not our conclusions.
Scala truly does epitomise the idea that less is more, a fact that
becomes ever-more obvious with repeated exposure to the language :)
Scala is surprisingly small, with many features actually being
implemented via the standard library and not as part of the core language
spec.
This includes both big stuff, like actors, and small stuff, like
automatic conversion of Ints to Strings
Much of this is made possible by core language features that actually
*are* part of the spec: first class functions, case classes, implicits,
mixins, operator notation, etc.
So it really, really doesn't have everything out of the box, or rather it
has two boxes: the core spec and the standard libs. It's just that the
extension points in the core spec are so good that standard lib stuff can be
made to look like it's an internal part of the language. Better still, you
can use the same techniques in your own code - just look at ScalaTest,
scalaz or akka to see what's possible.
The only point I will disagree on (in absence of a particular use case):
For *truly* performance-critical code, should you be using a database at
all? The need to serialize/de-serialize everything via a magnetic platter
can be a serious bottleneck!
On 25 August 2010 09:49, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 8/25/10 10:25 , Kevin Wright wrote:
lombok hooks into the compiler, extending Java code to allow some
code generation. So it's not unreasonable to consider Java+Lombok
to be a distinct language from Java or even an extension/evolution
of Java.
Scala reuses Java syntax as much as possible, changing it where
necessary to add functional constructs and type inference. So
it's not unreasonable to consider Scala an extension/evolution of
Java.
So comparing Scala to JavaLombokLambdaJ (JLL) is emphatically
*not* the same as comparing Scala to Java.
This is pretty much philosophy :-) while I think we're discussing how
to practically do things. My point is that Java is a *simple* language
with a reasonable set of extension points to tailor it to people's
needs (and these extension points have been designed purportedly, i.e.
Lombok is not playing any trick, it's just using a feature -
annotations and compiler extensions - that has been put there for that
purpose). This means that different people can extend Java in
different ways, if they want. Scala has got everything out-of-the-box:
right, that's why I'm saying that it's more *complex*.
However, if you do compare Scala to JLL, three things stand out: -
JLL is driven by annotations, so it's not a seamless integration
that looks like part of the language
As I said, annotations are a natural part of the language.
- JLL does everything with reflection, adding a performance cost
that could be critical in some domains
Lombok doesn't use annotations, but code generation at compile time.
lambdaj is using some reflection and has some performance hit. It's to
be seen how strong it is, in any case, and we can't just decide
without a case study. I'd also argue that complex list filtering that
are performance-critical are probably best to be done in the database,
rather than in the language (e.g. I don't think it's advisable in a
common scenario to load 1,000,000 of persons in memory to pick those
younger than 18). This is just a counter-example, of course.
- You still don't have pattern matching, or type classes, or etc,
etc...
Yes. Maybe I don't need them? :-P Seriously, I've said multiple times
that Scala is more
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Meet Lady Java
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 6:57 PM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 8/14/10 18:51 , Casper Bang wrote: Them JavaZone video's were less ironic before SCOracle's lawsuit. Furthermore, while Larry Ellison is busy suing in order to raise money for a bigger yacht, Bill Gates (depicted as cumshot receiver) is fighting malaria, polio and AIDS in Africa. Fun video but frankly the demonization is getting a little old. In my country they say once is fun, twice is boring. And if I correctly translate Casper's resume - I didn't look at the video -, I think that there's really some bad taste. Conferences are representative of the community and a lot of people, including myself, could be upset by this lack of style. IT people becoming upset for lack of style is a bit funny considering people in the IT's reputation of being socially inept and lack all sense of fashion and personal hygiene. - -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxmyucACgkQeDweFqgUGxeTKwCePjre3fpKI3vbhS6069IIqiI+ SwEAoLAIAy7m1GKNi69YQ3vLNvVi3b6+ =LeyB -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Meet Lady Java
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 8/14/10 19:17 , Viktor Klang wrote: IT people becoming upset for lack of style is a bit funny considering people in the IT's reputation of being socially inept and lack all sense of fashion and personal hygiene. So you think that we should even worsen our stereotype by being childish and insulting people? I think it's up to everyone to set their own standards of conduct, and take the benefits and consequences of their choice. On a sidenote, did you watch the video? - -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxm0iwACgkQeDweFqgUGxfLUgCfbzpRKbYYWxrkFYVb90aAITgy 4REAn268jWNaQNJq2MkoFNJthh4MTuPV =K7iW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Meet Lady Java
On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 8:12 PM, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote: I personally just wish the Java space would focus more on pro-self rather than con-others. It reminds me of American political TV- campaigns where you actually learn nothing about the candidate, but a whole lot of irrelevant FUD about the competitor. Yes I get it, Microsoft did some questionable things back in 98' (very close to what Google did with Android) but for God's sake lets move on, Microsoft sure has! I totally agree, and I utterly hope that the video is a joke and not to be taken literally. I'd also want Java to be more pro-self, but I can imagine it being real hard since they don't seem to want to evolve the language... On Aug 14, 7:56 pm, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 8/14/10 19:17 , Viktor Klang wrote: IT people becoming upset for lack of style is a bit funny considering people in the IT's reputation of being socially inept and lack all sense of fashion and personal hygiene. So you think that we should even worsen our stereotype by being childish and insulting people? I think it's up to everyone to set their own standards of conduct, and take the benefits and consequences of their choice. On a sidenote, did you watch the video? - -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici -www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla -http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxm0iwACgkQeDweFqgUGxfLUgCfbzpRKbYYWxrkFYVb90aAITgy 4REAn268jWNaQNJq2MkoFNJthh4MTuPV =K7iW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumblr.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala and Java spec size
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Ben Schulz ya...@gmx.net wrote: On 9 Aug., 21:23, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wrote: My goodness, what a tangled web you weave... You're mutating an object AND using the return value at the same time and you're doing it twice, in the same expression! It still disproves your statement. Then to add insult to injury, you now propose to add an implicit conversion to the mix. An implicit conversion that, itself, has side effects. You will notice I remarked on that myself before. Do please feel free to try it for yourself, but you truly deserve whatever results you get from such an attempt! You're right, I truly have no idea what the relative order of execution is for the implicits and the mutations and the :: Then again, this sort of thing really shouldn't come up in a production system. If it did then I'd be asking some far more serious questions about code quality. It certainly wouldn't pass a review, and at first sight of such code I'd engage in a refactoring or two, as this is just plain Bad Design(tm) Such a mix of implicit conversions and mutability really is imperative programming at its worst, and captures EXACTLY the kind of mess that functional programming seeks to avoid. In the sort of idiomatic good design that Scala encourages: - You just don't combine mutation and returning a value, as ++ does - Wherever possible, functions should be pure. For the same input they will *always* produce the same output, so order of execution isn't relevant You are quite right in stating that astonishing behaviour can result from a truly abysmal design. But isn't that true of any programming language? Absolutely, and it holds true for Java as well. Java is surprisingly simple if you only write good code. For instance there's 30 pages in the specification for determining the method to be called. I doubt even 1% of Java developers could recite them, yet they constantly and correctly determine this themselves. In Scala they would not get away with that, they'd have to understand (among other things): - higher-kinded types - implicit conversions - implicits/views/view-bounds - inference rules for anonymous functions ...or you do exactly like the Java-programmers, CMD+click on the method and at the site of the correct method you are. That's a lot of complexity beyond that of Java. And it's the scary kind, the one you have to grasp in order to use the language and not the one that sneaks up on you once in a blue moon and you can shrug off as one of those things. Java developers /feel/ like they understand the language even if they don't, it's hard to feel the same about Scala. It's also hard to go to work each day feeling uncomfortable because you don't feel in control. That's why / perceived/ complexity wins the day. Definitely, but make sure you've taken a good look before making judgements based on perception. With kind regards Ben -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumbler.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Acronym VFR??? (Virtual...)
http://www.acronymfinder.com/VFR.html On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 1:02 PM, hayden.paul.jo...@gmail.com hayden.paul.jo...@gmail.com wrote: So, um, what is VFR short for? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumbler.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala and Java spec size
On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Ben Schulz ya...@gmx.net wrote: On 10 Aug., 13:04, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: Definitely, but make sure you've taken a good look before making judgements based on perception. I was under the impression that this discussions is not about me, but about the masses; and as should be clear from various political campaigns, perception is all they care about. ;) Then masses is not for me ;) With kind regards Ben -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumbler.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala and Java spec size
this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Kevin Wright mail/google talk: kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wave: kev.lee.wri...@googlewave.com skype: kev.lee.wright twitter: @thecoda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumbler.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala and Java spec size
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Ben Schulz ya...@gmx.net wrote: On 9 Aug., 11:02, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wrote: any operator ending with a `:` is also right associative. So x :: someList is equivalent to someList.::(x) I think you just proved Fabrizio's point (and this is a one-line example). ;) *laughs* If you can't remember that suffix-colon means right-associative, you can't be expected to remember that * has higher precedence than +, which probably means you already have a difficult enough life. ;) With kind regards Ben -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumbler.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala and Java spec size
Oh, sorry, I wasn't bashing your point, I was agreeing! On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:43 PM, Josh Berry tae...@gmail.com wrote: You twisted my point. My point is that you can make code that reads more like the domain you are modeling. Consider, if you are trying to implement an algorithm for processing data that is in a matrix. Which do you find more readable, one that can look very similar to the paper from which you acquired the algorithm, or the one that you had to first translate to java land? The valid counter to operator overloading is that it can be misused. But, you counter that in your second paragraph. So... what are the complaints of this style of programming? On Aug 9, 3:07 am, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: I find it rather amusing that people argue that being able to create methods that are familiar symbols (+,-,* etc) leads to code that is hard to understand. This is a false statement. ANY word/symbol can be defined to work in a way that is not intuitive, it doesn't matter if we call a method plus or + if it's not doing addition, it'll be confusing anyway. On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 5:35 PM, Josh Berry tae...@gmail.com wrote: It seems that the thing that is off in all of this discussion is that we are trying to determine which is more complex between the languages, when what we really care about are the programs written in those languages. To that end, I really just want to simply point to something like scalatest or squeryl to get an idea of the simplicity of some of the client code that can be written against Scala. Take your example, though, 5 + 2. This works for simple numbers, but what about the fun of matrix math? Or complex numbers math? Both of which would undoubtedly look nicer --- one might say simpler --- using the familiar symbols for addition, but this can not be done in Java. Now, I would agree that this is a complexity of the language, but it is a simplification in the program. On Aug 7, 6:32 pm, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.com wrote: How's that a case for simplicity for scala? In java, 5 + 2 means just what you think it means, intuitively. If you want to know more still you'll have delve into the extensive JLS which confirms your suspicions. In scala you need to delve into the libraries, and you really have no idea what it could possibly do - every object can field its own definition of '+'. This isn't simple anymore; the drive to libraryize all complexity means that most seemingly atomic library operations are in fact not the lowest layer, but they build on a lower layer still, and in languages like scala, that lowest of layers is not all that natural. I continue to assert that claiming scala is simpler because the JLS is longer than the scala equivalent is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. On Aug 6, 10:59 am, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wrote: The idea that we can establish some sort of formal complexity measurement for documentation is... interesting. Although I think there's more joy to be had in measuring EBNF, or the size of some other parser grammar considered complete for the language. I'd also like to briefly explore one of the differences between the two language specs... Consider the `+` operator. In the JLS, this is covered in chapter 15, expressions 15.18 - additive operators 15.18.1 - string concatenation 15.18.1.1 - string conversion 15.18.1.2 - optimization of string concatenation 15.18.1.3 - examples of string concatenation 15.18.2 - additive operators for numeric types Spanning pages 496-501 It's a bit different in Scala, which doesn't have operators as quite the same way. They're just methods in infix/operator notation. Everything in Scala is also an object (no primitives). Int, Float, String etc. are still optimised in the compiler, and will often use primitives in the generated bytecode, but within Scala code they are objects. So `+` becomes a method on the String/Int/Float/etc. object. The Scala spec doesn't list API methods any more than the JLS does. What the spec *does* have is section 6.12.3, outlining how methods used in the infix position have a precedence determined by the first character of the operator name. One beauty of thie approach is that it effectively gives you operator overloading, allowing things like this: http://www.scala-lang.org/api/current/scala/math/BigDecimal.html This is sufficient to be able to duplicate Java's behaviour, by building up to it on the basis of a broader (and simpler) concept. So x + 2 May look the same as Java, but it's actually achieved via the `+` method on a String instance, and not a dedicated special-case operator
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala and Java spec size
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Aug 9, 3:07 am, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: ANY word/symbol can be defined to work in a way that is not intuitive, it doesn't matter if we call a method plus or + if it's not doing addition, it'll be confusing anyway. There are two differences: 1) Full words are obviously less ambiguous than single characters. In other words, it's much more probable to misuse an operator rather than misusing an english word (or set of words). May I ask how you figure it's easier to misuse a symbol than a word? (wrong implementation of equals and hashCode is one of the most common java problems.) 2) Operators have the precedence thing that is able to confuse a lot of average programmers. Definitely, precedence is something you need to learn and remember. There's also the implicit type conversion thing (a real mess in C++) but if I properly understand it is not a problem with Scala. - -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxf/AkACgkQeDweFqgUGxdBbQCgmbPqN5uM8v0soAABHKySWXJz 0xsAn03pVkUkz1Xj0f3E10jODAYGx5FR =UknX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumbler.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala and Java spec size
On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 8/9/10 15:33 , Viktor Klang wrote: May I ask how you figure it's easier to misuse a symbol than a word? (wrong implementation of equals and hashCode is one of the most common java problems.) For the same reason it's considered a good practice to have long identifiers with self describing names. Single characters are at the opposite side. Of course, single-character operators are excellent when they are backed up by a specific formalism, such as maths. But the problem is that now we're requiring people to know that formalism (of course, + - and such on vectors or matrices or complex numbers is not a problem). In some cases, even the formalism is not enough: I could implement an integral operation with an operator, but when we move from maths to computer science there are many alternate ways to approximate the value of an integral. Which way does that integral-symbol operator mean? So basically what you're saying that we have a problem where we cannot assign a verified contract with the symbols/words? if the equals-method was linked to a contract that was tested against your implementations/overrides of it, I, by learning that contract, could instinctively know what the equals-method does? Another good example is java.net.URL whose hashCode does a call to teh intarwebz: http://michaelscharf.blogspot.com/2006/11/javaneturlequals-and-hashcode-make.html - -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxgB4YACgkQeDweFqgUGxdUKgCfW6Q1qN4V8m7ATPpxAwsT7V+s de0An2g03z3fOpXo9n6eViKf273GxqRV =jboE -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumbler.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala is complete esoteric nonsense!
that the two programming models can coexist in the same language. Why does functional programming still has a so little impact? Well, probably for the same reasons why Windows is still far more used than Unix-based operating systems: a. It is less powerful and then less complex. People are lazy and don't want to put their brain at work. But we, as developers, should let our brains working. b. It is easily available. The biggest part of the pc are sell with Windows already installed. In the same way managers and companies ask for Java developer since they are easier to be sell. c. For some reason, especially in our field, the best technology is rarely the winning one. Bye, Mario Fusco twitter: @mariofusco -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur === Code: github.com/jboner/akka Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumbler.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala is complete esoteric nonsense!
On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 4:11 PM, jitesh dundas jbdun...@gmail.com wrote: Agreed Victor..However, these are also brain-storming sessions that seem to bring out new things for us.. Absolutely, but then we probably should talk in X vs Y, but explore the concepts, possibilities and constraints of X separately from Y. Otherwise we risk getting caught in sad parts of the human mind - like thinking that things are wrong because they are unfamiliar. Maybe to a limit, as what Kevin Liam said, things are alright .only to a point.. So finally, what and how do you measure Scala Java wrt complexity and readibility. What is the purpose of the measurement? Define readability and complexity so we can be on the same page as one another. Are we talking about language spec. complexity, or the complexity in one use of said language? Because the latter surely might as well be measuring the level of proficiency and professionalism of the author of the code. Or even the values of the person in charge of the author of the code. We have to stay aware about the importance of choosing appropriate tools for what we do, what's appropriate is always a judgement call, we cannot rely on scientific, absolute, methods that will let us work without using our minds, hearts and a cup of coffee. Different companies have different people with different values and different experiences and what's suitable for some might be disastrous for others. What we can agree on is to try to have an open mind, to view things from different perspectives, without prejudice - before - we make our decisions. regards, jd On 8/8/10, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: Guys, this discussion is becoming more and more blurred. There are infinitely different situations with different needs and different constraints, there is no point in trying to argue that solution X will work for everyone. Lets just do what we do best and see what will work and what won't work, I know people who still code in RPG[1] and they're making a good profit, and I know people who code in C#4[2] and have red figures on the bottom line. All I can say is that I feel very fortunate to be paid to write Scala, working with one of the most brilliant minds[3] of the community and on, in my opinion, one of the most interesting products[4] in its niche - that's success for me. However I fully respect that success for someone else might mean something entirely different. The risk of these discussions is that they very often turn into Blub[5]-debates or simply degenerating into argumentum ad hominem[6]. So please, everyone, join hands and sing. Java, Scala, Java-Scala jing jing jing. Cheers, [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_RPG [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Sharp_4.0 [3]: http://www.jonasboner.com/ [4]: http://www.akkasource.com/ [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blub#Blub [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem PS. ARRR! Avast ye landlubbers! On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Liam Knox liamjk...@gmail.com wrote: Productivity: Why aren't companies buying Scala if it is so productive? I really don't get this. If everyone was a Genius you could define an infinitely concise language with infinite productivity. My assessment of Scala is that for the general developer, and for a firm, it is less productive than Java And why does everyone keep talking about DSL's? The financial industry has yet to even define common descriptions of business entities let alone behavior. DSL's appear to be being viewed in the same as AI was 10 years ago, some kind of panacea They are not. For a useful DSL you need consensus, multiple parties and uptake. Having a language with an ability to design a DSL can in many ways be counter productive. On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Mario Fusco mario.fu...@gmail.com wrote: 1. Conciseness : You can always have bad code regardless of conciseness, see Perl or APL for good examples. I don't buy this argument at all. Good Java development can produce very concise code already. This is not a winning argument Of course you can write awful code regardless of the language. Nevertheless conciseness can be a winning factor especially in the long terms. The cost to maintain a software is directly proportional to the number of its LOCs. 2. Productivity: The argument of individual productivity is completely irrelevant. You have to look a teams and indeed whole firms on this point Productivity is the real winning point of Scala if you use it in the right way. A few examples to justify this statement: a. The most important part of any meaningful application is its business model. Try to leverage the Scala features in order to write a small DSL implementing that business model and let the other guys of your team to use your DSL. The result will be an higher productivity
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Dick, that's not how you compare strings!
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Christian Catchpole christ...@catchpole.net
wrote:
Code lurking in every BMW..
if (gps.atDestination() !
destination.toLowerCase().equals(gps.getLocation().toLowerCase())) {
this.getPetrolTank().explode();
}
What does the unit test look like? ;)
On Aug 5, 3:53 pm, B Smith-Mannschott bsmith.o...@gmail.com wrote:
great post Reinier! :)
And to further confuse matters:
- lowercase(STRASSE) - strasse is correct in german-speaking
Switzerland, where they don't use ß.
- there have actually been attempts at an upper-case ß, which is
probably how it got into unicode.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Großes_ßhttp://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fes_%C3%9F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_ßhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_%C3%9F
It never really caught on though.
// Ben
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| A complex system that works is invariably
| found to have evolved from a simple system
| that worked. - John Gall
Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org
Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang
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Re: [The Java Posse] Book recommendation
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Rakesh rakesh.mailgro...@gmail.com wrote: Hi folks, off on my holidays soon and wanted to fill up the eBook reader. Any suggestions? Preferably something that wont require a computer next to me. Gödel, Escher, Bach - an eternal golden braid: http://www.amazon.com/Godel-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567 I hear there's a book on Lisp thats supposed to be good for concepts? Is it possible to get your head around some of the functional concepts without a computer? If you have an iPod or any small video player I'd recommend you to watch the Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (SICP) series: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ Rakesh -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Post your strangest loop and win (up to) 4 free passes to Strange Loop!
Guys, I'm a bit surprised not to see any multithreaded strange loops yet.
On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Roel Spilker r.spil...@topdesk.com wrote:
Did you use a regular expression on purpose?
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: kyleren...@gmail.com [mailto:javapo...@googlegroups.com]
Namens Kyle Renfro
Verzonden: 04 August 2010 21:43
Aan: The Java Posse
Onderwerp: [The Java Posse] Re: Post your strangest loop and
win (up to) 4 free passes to Strange Loop!
Great contest!
1 pass required.
Here is a very handy loop that *everyone* should use. ha ha.
import java.io.*;
import java.util.logging.*;
public class AddTabs {
public static void main(String[] args){
try {
BufferedReader in = new BufferedReader(new
InputStreamReader(System.in));
PrintWriter out = new PrintWriter(new
OutputStreamWriter(System.out));
String s = in.readLine();
while (s != null){
out.println(s.replaceAll(, \t));
s = in.readLine();
}
in.close();
out.close();
}
catch (IOException ex) {
Logger.getLogger(AddTabs.class.getName()).log(Level.SEVERE, null, ex);
}
}
}
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| found to have evolved from a simple system
| that worked. - John Gall
Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org
Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang
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Re: [The Java Posse] About Maven and repository problems discussed on Twitter
Wouldn't it me interesting to use something like BitTorrent instead? So you won't have to rely on a specific repo? On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 10:32 AM, lazee jakobvadniel...@gmail.com wrote: Yesterday Dick Wall send these messages on Twitter: is codehaus.org down for anyone else? Takes on a whole new meaning of fail when you have it in your maven repos. Come on guys... Carl Quinn replied later that day: @dickwall A weakness of Maven: You need a caching local repository like Artifactory? :) I just want to comment on that. I really do not agree that this is a weakness of Maven. Of course it is a shame when the codehaus servers are down. But lets try to step back and think about how package management were done before Maven. Back then it was a common approach to check the dependencies into the code repository together with the code itself. That was a nightmare to maintain because you needed to find out about (and include) the transitive dependencies. And you also needed to find out yourself if any of the transitive dependencies could be up- or downgraded without causing problems When Maven came along we suddenly got a very simple and powerful way of keeping packages organized. And people loved that packages were downloaded automatically when added into the project pom. But sadly this have made us lazy and blind. Package management is HARD and should never be ignored. Even when we have Maven and the Codehaus repositories. As Carl points out you should always have a local maven repository within you organization. The reasons are: 1) You really do not want all your developers to get into trouble when Codehaus (or other mirrors) are down 2) You want a place where you can create maven packages of projects that are not in the Codehaus repository 3) You want to be able to block out certain packages. eg: Lets say that commons-logging are something that should not be used within your organisation. 4) You do not wanna waste your developers time. A local repository is much faster than external servers (at least should be) I'm sure there are other good reasons as well. But as I said before; This is not a Maven weakness! Keeping a local repository is something you will always need. Maven or not. With Nexus and Artifactory this has never been easier. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Post your strangest loop and win (up to) 4 free passes to Strange Loop!
On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 4:26 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.comwrote:
I really like how folks keep making the argument that java sucks
because it is *well documented*.
That made me laugh. What an euphemism! :D
Only a scala fanboy would go that far.
/trollbait
On Aug 4, 11:01 am, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wrote:
my thinking:
`http:` is the label (followed by a comment that the pre-processor strips
out)
`do { ... } while (...)` is the labelled statement
`continue label` attempts to transfer control back to the continue
target. In this case, the labelled do/while loop
a `do {statement} while (expression)` loops will check its expression
only
once the statement has executed normally (which it hasn't here)
So... the loop will begin again, and continue infinitely, or until an
exception is thrown or the JVM is terminated.
No stack involved, at the level of compiled machine code it'll be jump
instructions all the way down...
The language spec covering all this is here:
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/third_edition/html/j3TOC.html
( or in pdf here:
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/download/langspec-3.0.pdf)
For anyone still labouring under the delusion that Java is a simple
language, it's a heavyweight document; running to 650 pages in almost 8MB
but you only really need chapter 14 for this question :)
On 4 August 2010 05:43, Kirk kirk.pepperd...@gmail.com wrote:
I'll be speaking there so I don't need a pass but thought it might be
fun
to put in a puzzler.
public class StrangeLoop {
public static void main(String[] args) {
http://www.thestrangeloop.com
do {
System.out.println(Strange Loop);
continue http;
} while (false);
}
}
Puzzler, infinite loop or normal termination?
Regards,
Kirk
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| found to have evolved from a simple system
| that worked. - John Gall
Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org
Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang
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Re: [The Java Posse] Virus in the forums?
Yar!!! Avast ye landlubber! On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Phil p...@surfsoftconsulting.com wrote: Guys I think we have a virus in the forums. Every discussion seems to be getting morphed into a Scala debate... Still, that'll please Dick. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Virus in the forums?
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 9:48 AM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 8/3/10 09:39 , Phil wrote: Guys I think we have a virus in the forums. Every discussion seems to be getting morphed into a Scala debate... Still there haven't been references to Nazis.. Well now there is. :( . - -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxXydkACgkQeDweFqgUGxcujQCfcT3wb60E69loAqDZnZfDRlpG acUAnRL2vhvM3yLfRPbG/38WK2DkwiMD =1Ul8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Virus in the forums?
On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 4:14 PM, jitesh dundas jbdun...@gmail.com wrote: what about the functionalities like rmi,jni, which java has..does scala have such features too.. how do you find n/w based functions in scala (as in java) Since Scala can call Java you can use RMI and JNI from Scala. regards, jd On 8/3/10, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wrote: and object-oriented :) On 3 August 2010 11:53, Christian Catchpole christ...@catchpole.net wrote: This thread is a little dysfunctional. Scala Oh, look, its functional again! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%252bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Kevin Wright mail/google talk: kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wave: kev.lee.wri...@googlewave.com skype: kev.lee.wright twitter: @thecoda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Who is using Scala in the real world?
On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 8/1/10 10:38 , Mario Fusco wrote: Hope that demonstrates one case where it is useful. If you can get to JavaOne, I will be doing my Funky Java, Objective Scala talk there, and I hope I can make my case more strongly :-). Dick Thanks a lot Dick. Your talk was already registered in my Schedule Builder :) Dick's example is great, but it doesn't show how Scala is complex. It does show how Scala is powerful, exactly in the meaning that Mario gave a few days ago. Complexity is not easily to demonstrate in a blog post, because I interpret it as the required bag of notions needed by a developer (who's neither Dick nor Mario) to solve a problem in a smart way. In other words, let's give: 1. a problem 2. a solution in Java made of 100 LoC and a cost of maintenance that I set to 1 3. a solution in Scala made of 10 LoC and a cost of maintenance that I set to 0.1 This is the typical Scala ( / whatever) evangelism example. This demonstrates that Scala is more powerful with respect to two software qualities (LoC and cost of maintenance). Still, if - starting from zero knowledge of both languages - I need 4 months of learning / trying to get to the Scala solution and 4 weeks to get to the Java solution, I'm still saying that Java is simpler. Note that - also to bring in the other thread by Mario - in function of the numeric relative figures of properties (that of course in my example I put at some example random values), the Scala solution might prove an advantage in the long run (because when I'll eventually get proficient in Scala I'll be able to write better solutions) or not (because the time will be longer that a given milestone, or because when I'll get to that Scala proficiency I'll move to a new, better paid job, leaving my employer with an open problem - he'll have to spend more, or get back to another new Java developer who's not able to maintain the current Scala code. I hope that this example clarifies where the Scala adoption problems lie in the real world and can't be solved by a blog post. But there's a mistake in your assumption. If you decide that a language you do not have experience with is the best language for the task, that will hopefully be just that. It's all in the constraints of the problem, what's important, time to delivery, total cost of ownership or whathaveyou? Intel and GloFo spend billions of dollars in developing new factories to produce smaller transistors. Then they spend less money to refine the process, then they build newer factories that can produce smaller transistors. Sometimes it's worth investing 4 months into tech (Scala) that will be more beneficient for you in the long run. I spent almost 10 years doing Java, and I refined my skills until I felt there wasn't anything more to refine, and to produce better software, I needed to invest time into a new technology (Scala). With that being said, I am a worse Scala programmer than a Java programmer, but I now produce more features, at higher velocity, with lower maintenance cost than I ever did with Java. There is no one-solution-fits-all, everyone has to decide for themselves what is most important to them, both in the short run and in the long run. BRs - -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxVVd0ACgkQeDweFqgUGxcPPwCfaI5qJV1nI8WWY5T923w4L/2k QeoAn3l2x688R+FfQCJBvQLtJZwsl7+i =6wP2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Who is using Scala in the real world?
On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 8/1/10 14:56 , Viktor Klang wrote: Intel and GloFo spend billions of dollars in developing new factories to produce smaller transistors. Then they spend less money to refine the process, then they build newer factories that can produce smaller transistors. Sometimes it's worth investing 4 months into tech (Scala) that will be more beneficient for you in the long run. There's a repeating error in this kind of discussions, that is the personal perspective. That is, the subject is always I, the developer. I stressed the fact that the perspective in my previous post was the one of the employer (or project manager, or whatever). To try to be clear, let me just play with the roles: Victor is the developer, I am the employer / project manager and Victor currently works for me. Let's now assume that Victor is right, that is he saturated his potential with Java and he only can improve with Scala. So, for his own advantage, he's right in moving to Scala. Now, I can't be sure that Victor will always work for me. If at a certain point he decides to leave, he'll carry with him his Scala skills and he'll be able to spend them wherever he likes. Instead, I'm left alone. Victor is sure that what's planning for himself in a medium/long perspective can be achieved (unless he wins the Bingo and retires); I can't because a perspective of one year might be jeopardized by the fact that Victor might be leaving me earlier. So, the better solution for _him_ is not the better solution for _me_. In fact, it turned out that learning Scala made me a better Java programmer = win for my employer It's not reasonable to discuss the possible success of a programming technology in the industry from the developer perspective, since developers aren't the one who make decisions. I agree that they cannot unchallenged choose their own tools, but if you as a manager, choose the tools for your developers, they might in fact quit and find somewhere else to go, where they actually value the professionalism and know-how of their developers. Intel example is not relevant, in my opinion. It's a huge-scale enterprise that perfectly knows how relevant is RD for the evolution of the business, and of course it spends a lot in RD. This is not precisely the same perspective of a huge number of medium and small software corporates - not to say that when we talk about IT departments in corporates whose core business is different we should recall that the IT budget is typically anemic and doesn't allow for much fantasy. IT is not a core part of our business - Gah, I'm so tired of that argument. Accounting is not a core part of our business Customer service is not a core part of our business Warehouse management is not a core part of our business Facility management is not a core part of our business Project management is not a core part of our business Just face it, there is no such thing as a core part of your business. That's like saying That's not a core part of my body. All parts of a corporation should definitely add to the success of said business. Having worked as a Java architect at a big company for the past 7 years, building their ERP/CRM/whathaveyou solution, I know for a fact that the success of a business can be directly enhanced by letting IT professionals work professionally. - -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxVc3sACgkQeDweFqgUGxcXjgCaArBK5jAXK43Ki7u9WU3KhySL H1sAn3L2p8CwUoSiGOtfIcSMufAusZrJ =ToDk -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala 2.8 actors documentation
Sorry Jan, If you had asked about Akka Actors I'd be able to more than helpful, but I think you'd better ask Phillip Haller for the specifics of the new Scala Actors (Reactors etc) On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Jan Goyvaerts java.arti...@gmail.comwrote: Really nobody ??? On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 22:48, Jan Goyvaerts java.arti...@gmail.comwrote: A simple question for those Scala guru's out there: It seems actors have been reworked quite some in 2.8. But does this also mean the syntax has changed ? Let's say compared to what is described in Programming in Scala. If I'm not mistaken the book is based on Scala 2.7.2. Thanks ! :-) Jan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Scala 2.8 actors documentation
There's always the ScalaDoc, check the sca.actors package(s): http://www.scala-lang.org/docu/files/api/index.html On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Jan Goyvaerts java.arti...@gmail.comwrote: no problem :-) I thought this group adequate regarding the attention Scala is getting now. On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 17:25, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: Sorry Jan, If you had asked about Akka Actors I'd be able to more than helpful, but I think you'd better ask Phillip Haller for the specifics of the new Scala Actors (Reactors etc) On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Jan Goyvaerts java.arti...@gmail.comwrote: Really nobody ??? On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 22:48, Jan Goyvaerts java.arti...@gmail.comwrote: A simple question for those Scala guru's out there: It seems actors have been reworked quite some in 2.8. But does this also mean the syntax has changed ? Let's say compared to what is described in Programming in Scala. If I'm not mistaken the book is based on Scala 2.7.2. Thanks ! :-) Jan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Choosing a Java web framework - with security as a focus
Hi Alan, There's a lot of material about Lift and it's approach to security, As a short introduction, read this entry: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2683914/why-would-i-use-scala-lift-over-java-spring/3067319#3067319 Cheers, On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 3:54 AM, Alan Kent alan.j.k...@saic.com wrote: On 16/07/2010 11:34 PM, Viktor Klang wrote: On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 3:21 PM, jitesh dundas jbdun...@gmail.com wrote: JSF is good for security purposes and t he reason that it is in demand (again :)..) is the back-end security with integration that makes life so easy.. Sorry, but JSF has nothing when compared to Lift when it comes to security. I have often meant to start off a thread on web frameworks when security is an issue. The above statements intrigued me. What do people mean by security in the above? Why is Lift more secure than JSF? There are lots of aspects to security: - Authentication schemes (e.g. single sign on with IE + AD, SAML, or CAS, or fill in form versus HTTP basic authentication etc). How radically do you have to change your code for each? (Is it all abstracted away?) - Has framework and widgets been tested for vulnerabilities (cross site scripting, output encoding, etc). For example I remember a cross site scripting vulnerability in a JSF component some time back. With big frameworks (lots of widgets, JavaScript etc), how do you ensure there are not such defects in them? - Session identification and projection (random number cookies for session management and relying on HTTPS to protect the tokens seems pretty common) - How to make sure sensitive data does not leak out. E.g. how to guarantee session id values never appear on a URL. - How easy is it to verify an application for correctness (can you automate the security verification step, or is it manual code inspection?) I hear lots about frameworks on how flexible or easy to use, but not much on how robust they are (or how tested/verified) from a security perspective. These days I think the security aspect would actually be my number one consideration if I was personally selecting a new web framework (or RIA) to choose. Is the Flex or JavaFX approach more secure than a web app where you have to worry about input validation and output escaping? How far do I trust Adobe technology (Flash) after all the Acrobat defects, or JavaFx given how new it is? Fundamentally, the more complex the technology (no matter what it is), the more security defects that are likely. Alan PS: Just listened to an OWASP security podcast interview some ex-army(?) guy (now in industry). He asked what is security. He went on to talk about the marines, army, air force, navy, etc - each would have a different interpretation of securing a building - (invade and kill everyone, put a fence around, lock the doors when you leave, or sign a new leasing agreement). That part was mildly amusing, but made a good point - what do people *really* mean when they say security? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Choosing a Java web framework.
I believe in the WTF/minute measurement of webframeworks. On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.comwrote: It seems like this app would be a simple CRUD application, perhaps later on tie into enterprise services. If I understand the scope correctly, why not use the web profile on EE6 (glassfish 3). You can use JPA entities as the model, Session beans to provide REST endpoints (controller), and HTML with JavaScript (dojo, jquery, etc) to provide the view. IMHO, this is simpler, easier to maintain (someone coming behind you will likely know the technologies or can learn quickly), and sets you up to scale easily. If you stick with JAX-RI, you'll rarely need to use servlets or even jsp. You think this is a simple solution? -- Kevin Wright mail/google talk: kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wave: kev.lee.wri...@googlewave.com skype: kev.lee.wright twitter: @thecoda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Rumours of Java's demise have been greatly exaggerated.
Having worked with Hibernate for about 5 years i can honestly say that it's
the right solution to the wrong problem.
I think a CQRS-approach with entities in a non-relational store and forking
off statistics/query-data off to a store suitable for data mining is the way
to go.
Basically querying in Hibernate is a mess:
1) Query by example... who uses that?
2) Criteria, a DSL that doesn't even offer type safe queries? WTF?
3) HQL, works good until you realize that you've hit the HQL wall and need
to go with SQL
4) SQL, to the metal, but you get the possibility to retrieve entities with
it ({relation.*}-syntax) gets the job done
Also, there are a lot of quirks and secret ninja techniques you have to be
aware of to get everything to behave like you expect.
I'm not saying it's totally worthless, I'm just saying that I don't believe
in the problem.
On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Fabrizio Giudici
fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 7/14/10 14:40 , jitesh dundas wrote:
Let us not blame Hibernate for everuything friends..There is more
than what meets the eye..
But that's the point. You started saying that Hibernate is good
because it provides a good abstraction, and now got to the conclusion that
sometimes you need to understand a lot of inner details. So, maybe is
not such a good abstraction, right?
- --
Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere.
java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people
fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it
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| A complex system that works is invariably
| found to have evolved from a simple system
| that worked. - John Gall
Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org
Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang
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Re: [The Java Posse] Re: It is hard to be a good developer
The end boss at level 10 is hard. On Mon, Jul 12, 2010 at 9:14 PM, twitter.com/nfma nuno.filipe.marq...@gmail.com wrote: Well Kirk you definitely are a 10! But I have many years yet to get to that level if I'll ever get there at all... On 12 July 2010 21:11, Kirk kirk.pepperd...@gmail.com wrote: 10? Why aren't you a 10 also? Kirk On Jul 12, 2010, at 9:05 PM, twitter.com/nfma wrote: I usually tend to put things in a different perspective. if you grade all the people doing Software from 0-10. Where Zero is someone that just started fresh on its first job and Ten are The Kent Becks, The Rich Hickeys, The Jim Weiriches, etc... of this world. Where are you in the grade? On 12 July 2010 18:18, Carl Jokl carl.j...@gmail.com wrote: One thing I have noticed but wonder what others think is that some people just seem to naturally be inclined to being a good developer in a way which doesn't seem to be teachable. It is as if some individuals just somehow get it and others just don't seem to no matter how long they spend doing it. It is great when you find such individuals. I found it hard in many instances as a new developer because so many people have strong opinions and will want you to do things their way. Many of these people though can be wrong. With so many conflicting opinions it can be hard to know which people to trust. I have seen some people who will just blindly believe everything their supervisor says without question. I have sometimes put myself out on a limb by questioning the technical decisions made by people senior to me. In spite of trying to do so in a positive way and for the greater good, often these individuals just want you to do what they say and not question it. There have been times where in the end they have pushed seniority and I have washed my hands of it and done it their way. It is a tough balance because ultimately I and many others want to be good developers and want to learn from more experienced people but just want to be sure they can trust the people who stand as their mentors. I see an awful lot of rather mediocre developers in the industry. I don't want this post to sound like I am being big headed either but have discovered that I seem to have some kind of instinct for programming that not everyone has. Being in that position isn't always pleasant as when you are in a crowd of rather mediocre developers it is easy to feel lonely and isolated. If stuck in that situation for long enough I am sure even bright developers can start to become indifferent and detached. On the other hand when you get together with other people who get it the development experience can flow like clockwork and feel pretty awesome. I count myself lucky as having experienced that and know what it can be like. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Tab / Spaces anyone?
On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Mark Volkmann r.mark.volkm...@gmail.comwrote: I'm surprised that all the replies to this thread are in favor of tabs over spaces. In my experience, the vast majority of developers favor spaces. For me there is one main reason I prefer spaces ... printers. Sometimes I print code. Printers seem to always use eight spaces for tabs which causes many lines to wrap and makes it harder to read the code. If there were a universal way to adjust that then I'd be okay with using tabs for indentation. Print code? Isn't that the modern equivalent to chisel code onto stone tablets? This is the same reason why I don't like when lines are longer than 80 characters. Many of the lines will wrap when printed. Also, I find it harder to read code with long lines. That's why newspaper columns don't extend all the way across wide newspaper pages. -- R. Mark Volkmann Object Computing, Inc. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Tab / Spaces anyone?
On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Dominic Mitchell d...@happygiraffe.netwrote: On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:02 PM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Mark Volkmann r.mark.volkm...@gmail.com wrote: I'm surprised that all the replies to this thread are in favor of tabs over spaces. In my experience, the vast majority of developers favor spaces. For me there is one main reason I prefer spaces ... printers. Sometimes I print code. Printers seem to always use eight spaces for tabs which causes many lines to wrap and makes it harder to read the code. If there were a universal way to adjust that then I'd be okay with using tabs for indentation. Print code? Isn't that the modern equivalent to chisel code onto stone tablets? It's quite handy for code reviews with lotsa red pen. Though maybe I have a “teacher” hangup. :) Guess you answered that on your own ;) -Dom -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Tab / Spaces anyone?
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Christian Catchpole christ...@catchpole.net wrote: Why don't we just create a special character called a Spab. Which has qualities of both. Made from unicorn farts of course :) Seriously? Who uses the Spab? It's aligning things totally messed up. Everyone and his dad uses the Tace, which perfectly lines up all them glyphs. Go Tace! On Jun 30, 5:05 am, Robert Casto casto.rob...@gmail.com wrote: I know its a pain, but so is having to deal with spaces and tabs. How about telling the editor to convert tabs to spaces when entering text? Better than leaving tabs in there. Robert On Jun 29, 2010 12:52 PM, B Smith-Mannschott bsmith.o...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 17:08, Robert Casto casto.rob...@gmail.com wrote: Can't we just move on ... A few (fairly random) thoughts: Wirth's Oberon system supplied a rich text editor with fonts/styles and embedded images. All source was written in this editor, giving one the option of embedding images in comments, choosing tab stops etc. Later iterations (Oberon System 3) also provided a compound-document based GUI (Gadgets). But, alas while you could embed images and indeed arbitrary chunks of GUI into your source code, say for documentation, all this was ignored by the compiler. It'd have been cool if you could have said something like: myGui := [ actual, live functioning GUI embedded in source right here ] myGui.doSomething; cool, but not really useful since Oberon's approach to GUI was such that this kind of code-driven GUI programming was unheard of. The GUI was a document you created interactively, it was not something you wrote a boat-load of ugly unmaintainable code to produce (a'la Swing). Didn't IBM's Visual Age (for Smalltalk, later for Java, a fore-runner of Eclipse) store project source in some kind of a database? Didn't that suck? Sure, you could store augmented parse trees in place of source, but diff/merge of tree-like structures is monumentally more difficult than diff/merge of textual lines (which is nothing more than a flat sequence). Witness, for example, the memory consumption of XML-aware diff tools. Witness how few of them exist. There has been quite a bit of research on structured editors: i.e. editors where you manipulate your program at the level of the parse tree, not as raw text. The results have been mixed. If you'd like to experiment with the idea, you could try paredit.el, which provides syntax-driven editing for lisp-like languages in emacs. Some people even like it. Speaking of Lisp... a Lisp would make this kind of thing so much easier to experiment with. After all *code is data* is one of the central concepts of Lisp-like languages. For full editor round-tripping, however, you'd have to figure out some way of working comments into said data structure. // ben On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Lyle lyle...@gmail.com wrote: Reinier's Rules (ha!) are... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: NetBeans code completion for logging
I strongly recommend sneakyThrows, this means you get rid o those pesky checked exceptions without having to allocate and wrap and potentially ruin something. On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 10:19 AM, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.comwrote: There's a school of thought stating that checked exceptions are okay for domain-level concepts, but not low-level stuff. So SaveFailedException would be allowed, but IOException, SqlException and their derivatives wouldn't. OTOH, It probably makes more sense to just return a status flag (or some other way of indicating completion/failure) in methods of this nature, I usually find that control flow reads more naturally that way. On 27 June 2010 00:04, Paul King pa...@asert.com.au wrote: Checked exceptions are a useful language feature and should be used liberally in cases where you know all possible use cases for your code in advance and require handling of the exceptions by the caller because it makes sense for them to always handle it. For code which you want to reuse for generic use cases they usually become an anti-pattern. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Kevin Wright mail/google talk: kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wave: kev.lee.wri...@googlewave.com skype: kev.lee.wright twitter: @thecoda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Less IPhone
I missed that poll. Count me in for the turtles. On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 10:50 PM, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@gmail.comwrote: So... Turtles = LOGO = Lisp = Clojure? The logic seems flawless :) On 27 June 2010 21:41, Kerry Sainsbury ke...@fidelma.com wrote: Hi Folks, And the survey results are in (if anybody cares). There were 77 respondents (ie: a tiny percentage of the Posse's listenership) 2.6% Liked The Java Posse to target a wider, non developer, audience 5.2% Liked The Java Posse to be *only *Developer Focused 74% Liked The Java Posse to be *primarily *Developer Focused (like Software Engineering Radio) 18.2% Liked Turtles The attached image adds little additional value, but, if you don't think about things very hard, proves that I didn't fiddle the results. Cheers Kerry On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Kerry Sainsbury ke...@fidelma.comwrote: Hi Team, Joe (below) and Dick (in the podcast) have both asked for feedback, so I cobbled together a simple one-question survey. http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/728HWR7 Nobody's bound by the results, but it might be interesting to see what people think when they have the benefit of anonymity. Cheers Kerry On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Joe Nuxoll (Java Posse) jnux...@gmail.com wrote: Deeper question: Should the Java Posse podcast be a developer- perspective only show? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Kevin Wright mail/google talk: kev.lee.wri...@gmail.com wave: kev.lee.wri...@googlewave.com skype: kev.lee.wright twitter: @thecoda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Less IPhone
Martin, I think you're confusing Java the language with the Java Virtual Machine, Java as a language has got a ton of legacy and not enough room to evolve when it's basically requiering both source and binary compatibility with older code. The JVM on the other hand is an amazing piece of tech that allows us to run bytecode based software on A LOT of platforms. On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 11:02 AM, Wildam Martin mwil...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 10:54, Carl Jokl carl.j...@gmail.com wrote: Java Posse is all I have left now. I am not particularly bothered about the Posse going off on tangents the way it seems to really wind up other people. I am not really aware of any other podcast now and so it is the only podcast I listen to. If there were no Java Posse I would have nothing at all. And I still do not understand why people are trying to talk Java into dead on and on, although I have never seen such a lot of different OSes out in the wild as nowadays. So platform independent development is more important than ever. And even more as I can see people desiring back thick clients because of responsiveness, offline-availability etc. Yes, there are enough other alternatives for developing for different platforms but Java is clearly one of the main players. So I really wonder why there are not appearing more Java podcasts instead of fading away... -- Martin Wildam -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Less IPhone
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Wildam Martin mwil...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 11:08, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: Martin, I think you're confusing Java the language with the Java Virtual Machine, In reality I was talking about both. I know the difference and I know that the JVM as even more weight nowadays. Java as a language has got a ton of legacy and not enough room to evolve when it's basically requiering both source and binary compatibility with older code. And what do you think about C(++) - you could say it has a ton of legacy too or evolving too slow. Since VB 4.0 (not the .NET - I mean the older version) up to 6.0 there were no significant language improvements and despite this it has been used for about 10 years in a lot of projects. Many years went by between releases of Windows without anybody saying, it is dead. I thought there was a global consensus that VB is dead? I have suffered a lot from problems while using languages that are still evolving and I am happy about a little consistency and a language that can be considered as stable. The JVM on the other hand is an amazing piece of tech that allows us to run bytecode based software on A LOT of platforms. Of course the JVM is the base under the Java language that is used as a destination platform for many other compilers - and of course we don't want yet another runtime. But I find, that Java is still of interest and there are still people learning Java and so people learning C(++) from zero. The Java posse does not necessarily need to focus on the core Java when talking about the Java language. There is a lot of Java libraries, frameworks and components they could talk about. -- Martin Wildam -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Good gosh J7 lambdas/closures are looking worse by the day
On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 8:52 PM, gafter neal.gaf...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 10, 9:44 am, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote: Once again, Stephen Colebourne to the rescue? http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/lambda-dev/2010-June/001544.html I like it, reads much easier than the Strawman proposal (people already have a hard enough time with bounds and co/contra-variance without tossing the throws keyword in there). Colebourne essentially proposes to deprecate checked exceptions. It will be a cool day in heck before that happens. 'Tis ok, us in Scalaland are already free. :) Current discussion on the lambda mailing list suggests it may be possible to do without the throws keyword in a type parameter. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Agile methods and frequent releases - how about the end customers?
The obvious alternative is to have one version for the masses and one for those on the edge, and then do few, bigger, releases to the first and many small releases to the second On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Many of us agree on the goodness of agile methods that lead to / allows to have frequent releases. Since when we work as consultants for a customer we have a good relationship with him/her (*), we can explain him what's happening (in fact, sharing the perspective and values is fundamental withing agile methods). But what about end customers? We can't and we shouldn't evangelize them (they want to use the damn'd thing, not to learn about techonology), so they'll have their own perception. At the moment, I'm having a release per week for my Android application. I've still to learn how to do automated UI tests, but the rest of the code has a very good coverage; I'm manually filling the gaps, and since the application is simple I can afford to do it manually. In the end, I feel confident - when I have full UI tests I'll feel even more confident. But yesterday I happened to read the blog of an italian journalist, about the iPad application developed by one of the most spread italian newspaper. He said the app is poor and they published an update right the day after the public release - the tone was a critical one, as to point out defects of the first release. So, suddenly, I realized that maybe customers might see frequent releases... as a bad sign! What should one do? Keep frequent releases internally and publish only once in a while? PS Of course, this is related to the bad way the Android Market is done. There's no official place for a changelog, if you put it in the description field (which is short) it will consume room for a decent description of the application; and even if you publish the change log to your website, you have to find a way to have it read by the end customers... (*) If you don't have at least a decent relationship with your customer, the project will fail even when done with Agile^3, Java 8 with multi-dimensional closures, etc... - -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwFA6cACgkQeDweFqgUGxff3wCfXQL0Dw7IFPpaLsXG1bN8pX/p /fgAnAsXKDrrYxsTBrHjCR32cnoX+mMX =tjSV -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Agile methods and frequent releases - how about the end customers?
On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 5:05 PM, Rakesh rakesh.mailgro...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, you seem to be a bit confused. An end customer (such as someone purchasing an app from a store) can not tell whether the app was built using agile methods or waterfall. I think you're missing the point, from my interpretation the OP was worried that frequent releases would harm the image of the product, giving it an appearance to be flawed and in need of constant fixes. The situation you refer to with an app requiring an update straight after release may be because it was buggy and it took users using it in the wild to find the bugs. Agile releases are meant to be 'working software', and should not contain (serious) bugs. Perhaps if you are finding that to release weekly you have to compromise on quality (something agile does not compromise on) then increase your iteration to have more time to do testing. Rakesh On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: The obvious alternative is to have one version for the masses and one for those on the edge, and then do few, bigger, releases to the first and many small releases to the second On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Many of us agree on the goodness of agile methods that lead to / allows to have frequent releases. Since when we work as consultants for a customer we have a good relationship with him/her (*), we can explain him what's happening (in fact, sharing the perspective and values is fundamental withing agile methods). But what about end customers? We can't and we shouldn't evangelize them (they want to use the damn'd thing, not to learn about techonology), so they'll have their own perception. At the moment, I'm having a release per week for my Android application. I've still to learn how to do automated UI tests, but the rest of the code has a very good coverage; I'm manually filling the gaps, and since the application is simple I can afford to do it manually. In the end, I feel confident - when I have full UI tests I'll feel even more confident. But yesterday I happened to read the blog of an italian journalist, about the iPad application developed by one of the most spread italian newspaper. He said the app is poor and they published an update right the day after the public release - the tone was a critical one, as to point out defects of the first release. So, suddenly, I realized that maybe customers might see frequent releases... as a bad sign! What should one do? Keep frequent releases internally and publish only once in a while? PS Of course, this is related to the bad way the Android Market is done. There's no official place for a changelog, if you put it in the description field (which is short) it will consume room for a decent description of the application; and even if you publish the change log to your website, you have to find a way to have it read by the end customers... (*) If you don't have at least a decent relationship with your customer, the project will fail even when done with Agile^3, Java 8 with multi-dimensional closures, etc... - -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkwFA6cACgkQeDweFqgUGxff3wCfXQL0Dw7IFPpaLsXG1bN8pX/p /fgAnAsXKDrrYxsTBrHjCR32cnoX+mMX =tjSV -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: The closure debate is pants - No, no it isn't.
So the question is, are everyone on the same page now regarding call-site and declaration site variance annotations? On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 6:30 AM, Michael Neale michael.ne...@gmail.comwrote: There isn't enough use of the term bailiwick in my books. Thats the second time I have heard of it in 6 months (last was in terms of DNS). On May 27, 10:03 pm, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think the closure debates include anything on verbosity of generics, that's project coin's bailiwick. I don't think I understand what you're asking / pointing out. On May 27, 7:32 am, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 1:35 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.comwrote: Repetition of generics in type declaration and object instantiation go away in java 7. This is already in the java 7 nightlies: ListString list = new ArrayList(); (Backwards compatibility again rears its head here: new ArrayList() wasn't possible because in current java that means: raw type, and backwards compatibility means semantic means cannot change. If I were the dictator I'd drop it here, but I'm not, and while I don't agree I can see why its done this way). Co/Contravariance is how the world works. You can't just wave your hand and make it go away. It is entirely possible to say: I take a list and I add integers to it. You can supply such a method with a List containing anything from Integer on down to Object and nothing will break, hence you need a way to say: List? super Integer. If you couldn't say that, you lose the ability to create a method that says: I take any list that will let me add integers to it. What do you propose, exactly? Drop 'extends' and 'super' altogether? There are massive amounts of things you can then no longer do. For example, you then can't run someNumberList.addAll(someIntegerList). Alternatively you make generics a glorified comment and don't do any compile-time checking at all, instead relying entirely on runtime exceptions. That's one way to design a language. I suggest you use jython instead of living in the fantasy that java is somehow dynamic, or should be. Reinier, the debate was definition-site variance annotations or callsite variance annotations, not about dropping variance. (Not from my perspective anyways) It's true the error messages could use some more support, but compared to other languages, javac's messages are stellar, so evidently that's a hard thing to get right. I am of half a mind to dive into javac itself and send some patches; javac is now open source, so, anyone can contribute! Interop: Yup. It's a pain, isn't it? On May 26, 5:54 pm, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com wrote: Generics have 3 big issues (from memory) - Having specified the type parameters on declaring a variable, they must then be repeated when instantiating it. - Co/Contravariance (i.e. ArrayListX extends ParentType). Not so bad on collections, but a nightmare for more advanced structures where USERS have to get the right balance of X extends T vs X super T. Error messages here if you get it wrong are often less than helpful. - Interop with non-genericised legacy code - 'nuff said! Full kudos to Google Collections though. They do manage to take away much of the pain from the first two points, though some people would consider the API to be non-idiomatic Java. On 26 May 2010 16:41, Alexey Zinger inline_f...@yahoo.com wrote: Generics are complex (more to produce API than consume), but I don't think it's fair to say that all it did was add boilerplate. As a consumer of generified API, I hardly ever see casts anymore (which should count as a reduction in boilerplate as well as an improvement in type safety -- one of Java's cornerstones), I don't have to express in comments what is now both a concrete expression in the code and is picked up by javadoc. It has made light structural typing convenient (rolling your own Pair-like constructs). Alexey 2001 Honda CBR600F4i (CCS) 2002 Suzuki Bandit 1200S 1992 Kawasaki EX500 http://azinger.blogspot.com http://bsheet.sourceforge.net http://wcollage.sourceforge.net -- *From:* Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com *To:* javaposse@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Wed, May 26, 2010 11:29:52 AM *Subject:* Re: [The Java Posse] Re: The closure debate is pants - No, no it isn't. There's *some* merit in objecting based on complexity Why must it always be the case (in Java at least) that new functionality so often seems to come with a whole bucketload of new boilerplate
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: The closure debate is pants - No, no it isn't.
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.comwrote: I don't think the closure debates include anything on verbosity of generics, that's project coin's bailiwick. There were two parallel discussions, one about closures, and one about generics. i'm referrign to the one about generics, which contained a discussion on co and contra variance. Does any of this ring any bells? I don't think I understand what you're asking / pointing out. On May 27, 7:32 am, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 1:35 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.com wrote: Repetition of generics in type declaration and object instantiation go away in java 7. This is already in the java 7 nightlies: ListString list = new ArrayList(); (Backwards compatibility again rears its head here: new ArrayList() wasn't possible because in current java that means: raw type, and backwards compatibility means semantic means cannot change. If I were the dictator I'd drop it here, but I'm not, and while I don't agree I can see why its done this way). Co/Contravariance is how the world works. You can't just wave your hand and make it go away. It is entirely possible to say: I take a list and I add integers to it. You can supply such a method with a List containing anything from Integer on down to Object and nothing will break, hence you need a way to say: List? super Integer. If you couldn't say that, you lose the ability to create a method that says: I take any list that will let me add integers to it. What do you propose, exactly? Drop 'extends' and 'super' altogether? There are massive amounts of things you can then no longer do. For example, you then can't run someNumberList.addAll(someIntegerList). Alternatively you make generics a glorified comment and don't do any compile-time checking at all, instead relying entirely on runtime exceptions. That's one way to design a language. I suggest you use jython instead of living in the fantasy that java is somehow dynamic, or should be. Reinier, the debate was definition-site variance annotations or callsite variance annotations, not about dropping variance. (Not from my perspective anyways) It's true the error messages could use some more support, but compared to other languages, javac's messages are stellar, so evidently that's a hard thing to get right. I am of half a mind to dive into javac itself and send some patches; javac is now open source, so, anyone can contribute! Interop: Yup. It's a pain, isn't it? On May 26, 5:54 pm, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com wrote: Generics have 3 big issues (from memory) - Having specified the type parameters on declaring a variable, they must then be repeated when instantiating it. - Co/Contravariance (i.e. ArrayListX extends ParentType). Not so bad on collections, but a nightmare for more advanced structures where USERS have to get the right balance of X extends T vs X super T. Error messages here if you get it wrong are often less than helpful. - Interop with non-genericised legacy code - 'nuff said! Full kudos to Google Collections though. They do manage to take away much of the pain from the first two points, though some people would consider the API to be non-idiomatic Java. On 26 May 2010 16:41, Alexey Zinger inline_f...@yahoo.com wrote: Generics are complex (more to produce API than consume), but I don't think it's fair to say that all it did was add boilerplate. As a consumer of generified API, I hardly ever see casts anymore (which should count as a reduction in boilerplate as well as an improvement in type safety -- one of Java's cornerstones), I don't have to express in comments what is now both a concrete expression in the code and is picked up by javadoc. It has made light structural typing convenient (rolling your own Pair-like constructs). Alexey 2001 Honda CBR600F4i (CCS) 2002 Suzuki Bandit 1200S 1992 Kawasaki EX500 http://azinger.blogspot.com http://bsheet.sourceforge.net http://wcollage.sourceforge.net -- *From:* Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com *To:* javaposse@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Wed, May 26, 2010 11:29:52 AM *Subject:* Re: [The Java Posse] Re: The closure debate is pants - No, no it isn't. There's *some* merit in objecting based on complexity Why must it always be the case (in Java at least) that new functionality so often seems to come with a whole bucketload of new boilerplate as well? Other languages have already shown us that this needn't be the case, and that features can be combined to offer even more elegance then either one by itself
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: The closure debate is pants - No, no it isn't.
, if reification isn't feasible, should closure types be added at all? The CICE proposal makes do without them. For ease of use with existing code, closure types will auto-convert themselves to single-abstract-method interfaces already, so with that feature, perhaps closure types aren't needed. Then again that gets annoying with very functionally oriented libraries. What to do, what to do ? 4) There's also continued debate about time vs. completeness. Certain proposals are way more involved and are basically shot down due to lack of time, but those same proposals do seem to lead to better syntax and a more consistent language, though whether or not this is really true once such a proposal has been fully fleshed out is unclear, partly because there's not enough time to research it. Should java just get closures now, period, even if it won't be as good as it might have been, or should java either delay the release of java7 or move closures up to java8 to provide the time to get to the best possible proposal? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group athttp:// groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group athttp:// groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: The closure debate is pants - No, no it isn't.
On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:29 PM, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com wrote: There's *some* merit in objecting based on complexity I don't see the difference between anon classes and closures from a complexity-standpoint if we omit non-local returns and control flow. Why must it always be the case (in Java at least) that new functionality so often seems to come with a whole bucketload of new boilerplate as well? Other languages have already shown us that this needn't be the case, and that features can be combined to offer even more elegance then either one by itself. Right now all we can do is to put lipstick on the pig :/ The enhanced-for loop was a step in the right direction, allowing me to write smaller and more elegant code. Generics, on the other hand... yeah :/ On 26 May 2010 15:41, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.comwrote: Rakesh, as I already said, closures itself are in. Folks like you that think generics sucked and closures are too complicated lost. Fortunately. Hehe, :-) On May 26, 11:42 am, Rakesh rakesh.mailgro...@gmail.com wrote: I recently read Coders At Work and in the interview with Joshua Bloch, he pretty much inferred that generics may not have been a good thing because of the complexity it produced. If generics had been used to restrict types in collections, fine but people were using the ? extends Blah and ? super Blah too much making things more complicated. Add to this the reification issue mentioned previously. Personally I think a language change should only be introduced if it reduces the complexity (sometimes boiler plate isnt the end of the world as long as you know what it does). I suspect closures will end up being the next generics debacle. R On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:23 AM, Michael Neale michael.ne...@gmail.com wrote: Another point brought up I think on the IllegalArgument podcast was how these would interact with non java languages - ie if JDK apis start using these closures - how will they map to other languages model of a closure. On May 26, 12:24 am, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.com wrote: I got the impression from Dick's note on the closure debate, as well as the response from the black hat guy, that there's some confusion about the closure debates. Yes, that's plural. There's the: Should Java have closures debate. This debate is basically over. Mark Reinhold wants it, and convinced enough people within sun (before the oracle take-over). I doubt this will be back- pedalled now. There's also the: What should it LOOK LIKE debate. This is a complex debate that hits on a gigantic amount of issues, simply because there are a bajillion ways to fit the following requirement set, and not one of them is the obvious right answer: 1) Make it simple to write block-like constructs in java (simpler than it is now, at any rate) 2) Make sure whatever construct you come up with makes Parallel Arrays nice too (required use case) 3) Make sure whatever syntax you come up with is invalid if compiled with javac 1.6, and that anything written for javac 1.6 does not change in meaning. (backwards compatibility) There are a bunch of issues which simply have no clear answer, so the debate on all of these is long, complicated, and involves massive introspection of existing java code as well as example future java code to see which makes for the better choice. The list is pretty much endless, so I'll just raise some of the major ones: 1) The 'strawman' of Reinhold at Devoxx allowed something like Closure foo = whatever; foo(); however, in java, unlike just about every other language with closures, methods and variables are separate namespaces. The above is mixing and matching them; foo(); currently means: Invoke a method named 'foo'. It does not mean: Do something to a variable named foo. Should we break the separate namespace rule to make closures look more natural (but with a bevy of java puzzlers for when you have methods named foo as well as closure vars named foo - especially because of backwards compatibility), or should we move away form the strawman and use for example foo.invoke() or some other operator such as foo#() to 'run' a closure? Anyone who thinks there's a clear right answer to this is delusional. In practice there's an unclear right answer which is to move away from the strawman, as the effects of making 'someClosure();' work are quite large, and this is in fact the current status quo. The specific syntax for now is: foo. (); 2) What should they look like? The strawman seems clear enough but has its problems when you nest closure types in closure types (param type of a closure is itself a closure) especially if some
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: The closure debate is pants - No, no it isn't.
On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 1:35 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.comwrote: Repetition of generics in type declaration and object instantiation go away in java 7. This is already in the java 7 nightlies: ListString list = new ArrayList(); (Backwards compatibility again rears its head here: new ArrayList() wasn't possible because in current java that means: raw type, and backwards compatibility means semantic means cannot change. If I were the dictator I'd drop it here, but I'm not, and while I don't agree I can see why its done this way). Co/Contravariance is how the world works. You can't just wave your hand and make it go away. It is entirely possible to say: I take a list and I add integers to it. You can supply such a method with a List containing anything from Integer on down to Object and nothing will break, hence you need a way to say: List? super Integer. If you couldn't say that, you lose the ability to create a method that says: I take any list that will let me add integers to it. What do you propose, exactly? Drop 'extends' and 'super' altogether? There are massive amounts of things you can then no longer do. For example, you then can't run someNumberList.addAll(someIntegerList). Alternatively you make generics a glorified comment and don't do any compile-time checking at all, instead relying entirely on runtime exceptions. That's one way to design a language. I suggest you use jython instead of living in the fantasy that java is somehow dynamic, or should be. Reinier, the debate was definition-site variance annotations or callsite variance annotations, not about dropping variance. (Not from my perspective anyways) It's true the error messages could use some more support, but compared to other languages, javac's messages are stellar, so evidently that's a hard thing to get right. I am of half a mind to dive into javac itself and send some patches; javac is now open source, so, anyone can contribute! Interop: Yup. It's a pain, isn't it? On May 26, 5:54 pm, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com wrote: Generics have 3 big issues (from memory) - Having specified the type parameters on declaring a variable, they must then be repeated when instantiating it. - Co/Contravariance (i.e. ArrayListX extends ParentType). Not so bad on collections, but a nightmare for more advanced structures where USERS have to get the right balance of X extends T vs X super T. Error messages here if you get it wrong are often less than helpful. - Interop with non-genericised legacy code - 'nuff said! Full kudos to Google Collections though. They do manage to take away much of the pain from the first two points, though some people would consider the API to be non-idiomatic Java. On 26 May 2010 16:41, Alexey Zinger inline_f...@yahoo.com wrote: Generics are complex (more to produce API than consume), but I don't think it's fair to say that all it did was add boilerplate. As a consumer of generified API, I hardly ever see casts anymore (which should count as a reduction in boilerplate as well as an improvement in type safety -- one of Java's cornerstones), I don't have to express in comments what is now both a concrete expression in the code and is picked up by javadoc. It has made light structural typing convenient (rolling your own Pair-like constructs). Alexey 2001 Honda CBR600F4i (CCS) 2002 Suzuki Bandit 1200S 1992 Kawasaki EX500 http://azinger.blogspot.com http://bsheet.sourceforge.net http://wcollage.sourceforge.net -- *From:* Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com *To:* javaposse@googlegroups.com *Sent:* Wed, May 26, 2010 11:29:52 AM *Subject:* Re: [The Java Posse] Re: The closure debate is pants - No, no it isn't. There's *some* merit in objecting based on complexity Why must it always be the case (in Java at least) that new functionality so often seems to come with a whole bucketload of new boilerplate as well? Other languages have already shown us that this needn't be the case, and that features can be combined to offer even more elegance then either one by itself. The enhanced-for loop was a step in the right direction, allowing me to write smaller and more elegant code. Generics, on the other hand... On 26 May 2010 15:41, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.comwrote: Rakesh, as I already said, closures itself are in. Folks like you that think generics sucked and closures are too complicated lost. Fortunately. Hehe, :-) On May 26, 11:42 am, Rakesh rakesh.mailgro...@gmail.com wrote: I recently read Coders At Work and in the interview with Joshua Bloch, he pretty much inferred that generics may not have been a good thing because of the complexity it produced
Re: [The Java Posse] The closure debate is pants - No, no it isn't.
options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] How to Mentor Developers
First, realize that aside from being developers, they are people - individuals - different. Find out what motivates them, why are they developers, what are they passionate about? Then use that to guide the developer, show him/her how different frameworks and techniques achieves the goal at hand, and how that caters to their motivational drivers. If you are demonstrationg EJBs to a developer that you know likes performance-tuning, you can weave in how you tune EJB applications, and what common performance problems are. Also, guide them in interpersonal relations, software development is very much about interacting with other people. Does your developers have meals together? Do they have time to develop professional relations and trust? Encourage them taking responsibility, make them challenge eachother and themselves. Yeah, I'm fully aware that this just sounds like textbook BS, but I assure you, between the buzzwords there are some gold nuggets. On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 4:26 PM, David Rollins david.roll...@gmail.comwrote: All, I'm in a relatively new position of needing to mentor Mid level and junior level developers. I have different challenges with each one, but I'm looking to get a better understanding of what others find helpful in either being guided along or in guiding others. So far I'm working through: - EJB Component Architecture - Design patterns - High level networking (for debugging education) I have one employee in particular who has very little experience, but also very little patience for being guided. I've asked him to work on Java certification, or at least go through the book and he doesn't find it necessary. Looking for suggestions and would appreciate the feedback. The environment we work in is primarily web based with a lot of back-end processes. Yours, David -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Microsoft’s Experiments with Software Transactional Memory Have Ended
You should checkout Akka, the actor framework that lets you combine actors with STM for transactional message flows. This lets you choose transactionality when desired, it's just one tool in the concurrency toolbox. We also have support for Clojure-style Agents and Dataflow concurrency. We have client APIs for both Java and Scala, and we also have excellent support for remote actors and cluster membership. Currently we're about 4 times more performant than the native Scala Actors library. www.akkasource.org -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Microsoft’s Experiments with Software Transactional Memory Have Ended
On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Amarjeet Singh amarjeet.aur...@gmail.comwrote: Fantastic sales pitch for Akka! No kidding, this sure looks promising. We'd love to hear your feedback, so if you decide to take her for a spin, get back to me and tell us what your impressions are. Regards On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 4:58 AM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: You should checkout Akka, the actor framework that lets you combine actors with STM for transactional message flows. This lets you choose transactionality when desired, it's just one tool in the concurrency toolbox. We also have support for Clojure-style Agents and Dataflow concurrency. We have client APIs for both Java and Scala, and we also have excellent support for remote actors and cluster membership. Currently we're about 4 times more performant than the native Scala Actors library. www.akkasource.org -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Amarjeet Singh Phone: +91-98712-76661 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Apple Bias?
Better to put java at the end and rename it all to ScalaPosse On May 7, 2010 1:30 AM, Kerry Sainsbury ke...@fidelma.com wrote: Which reminds me -- it would be great if the Scalawags section was at the very end, AFTER emails, so I don't have to fast-forward through all those arrrghs. On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Steven Herod steven.he...@gmail.com wrote: On May 6, 2:31 ... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: About the new Java Certifications
What's the purpose of certification? On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 3:56 AM, Eddie edward.y.k@gmail.com wrote: In the past, I have used the certifications to force myself to study the specs and the edge cases. The certifications are pretty much on par with putting I am a quick learner on your resume, who would pay to take a course to earn that certification? On May 3, 9:52 am, Christian Bernini aintch...@gmail.com wrote: Oracle published a draft of what will be the certification scenario on J2EE for 2011: http://java.sun.com/javaee/support/training/ Heard people discussing the idea that Oracle would make their official courses a requirement for the exam, but that still sounds like a big fuss to me. What I was really eager to see was some J2EE certification in the same approach as SCJP, where the candidate is supposed to submit a real project, not just know how he's supposed to do something with the technology. So, what are your thoughts about it? -- Christian Bernini -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group athttp:// groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] EJB security semantics ?
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Jan Goyvaerts java.arti...@gmail.comwrote:
I'm currently rewriting an EJB security course and I'm having an
enterprisy question for the EJB connoisseurs out there. :-)
I've written a basic example showing the problem. What happens is
counterintuitive but maybe it's the way it is meant to work.
You mean the compiler should enforce that methods called from your methods
only include other methods permissible to call from within the roles or
permissions declared?
MY QUESTION: Is this the way it is meant to work ? If so, can somebody
direct me to a resource/article/... explaining this ?
MANY thanks !!!
Jan
==
*Consider the session bean*
@Session
@DenyAll
@DeclareRoles({god,mortal})
class Knowledge {
@PermitAll
public String commonKnowledge() {
String response = Belgian chocolate is best ! ;
response += secretKnowledge(); * call to this method is NOT
blocked for a mortal user !!*
return response;
}
@RolesAllowed({admin})
public String secretKnowledge() {
return The meaning of everything is 42;
}
}
When calling both methods with a mortal user, only the call to the second
method is blocked. The call to the first completes without error. Although
one would expect it to block too as it is accessing a method requiring the
god role. At first sight, only the very first method call is guarded. It's
on GlassFish 3.1 btw...
--
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--
Viktor Klang
| A complex system that works is invariably
| found to have evolved from a simple system
| that worked. - John Gall
Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org
Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang
--
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Re: [The Java Posse] EJB security semantics ?
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Jan Goyvaerts java.arti...@gmail.comwrote:
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 13:31, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote:
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Jan Goyvaerts
java.arti...@gmail.comwrote:
I'm currently rewriting an EJB security course and I'm having an
enterprisy question for the EJB connoisseurs out there. :-)
I've written a basic example showing the problem. What happens is
counterintuitive but maybe it's the way it is meant to work.
You mean the compiler should enforce that methods called from your methods
only include other methods permissible to call from within the roles or
permissions declared?
No. Obviously the example shows a situation that is a bug. It should pop up
at runtime of course. :-)
What I'm wondering is why the *call *of the method is not stopped. I'm
obviously accessing code that I'm not supposed to.
But for that to work the appserver would have to hook into the classloading
and either enforce the semantics, or weave in checks before each call that
has some security annotations.
(To either give errors at load time or give errors at runtime)
But I might misunderstand you.
MY QUESTION: Is this the way it is meant to work ? If so, can somebody
direct me to a resource/article/... explaining this ?
MANY thanks !!!
Jan
==
*Consider the session bean*
@Session
@DenyAll
@DeclareRoles({god,mortal})
class Knowledge {
@PermitAll
public String commonKnowledge() {
String response = Belgian chocolate is best ! ;
response += secretKnowledge(); * call to this method is NOT
blocked for a mortal user !!*
return response;
}
@RolesAllowed({admin})
public String secretKnowledge() {
return The meaning of everything is 42;
}
}
When calling both methods with a mortal user, only the call to the
second method is blocked. The call to the first completes without error.
Although one would expect it to block too as it is accessing a method
requiring the god role. At first sight, only the very first method call is
guarded. It's on GlassFish 3.1 btw...
--
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--
Viktor Klang
| A complex system that works is invariably
| found to have evolved from a simple system
| that worked. - John Gall
Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org
Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang
--
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--
Viktor Klang
| A complex system that works is invariably
| found to have evolved from a simple system
| that worked. - John Gall
Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org
Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang
--
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Re: [The Java Posse] EJB security semantics ?
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 1:56 PM, Jan Goyvaerts java.arti...@gmail.comwrote:
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 13:47, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote:
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Jan Goyvaerts java.arti...@gmail.comwrote:
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 13:31, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote:
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Jan Goyvaerts java.arti...@gmail.com
wrote:
I'm currently rewriting an EJB security course and I'm having an
enterprisy question for the EJB connoisseurs out there. :-)
I've written a basic example showing the problem. What happens is
counterintuitive but maybe it's the way it is meant to work.
You mean the compiler should enforce that methods called from your
methods only include other methods permissible to call from within the
roles
or permissions declared?
No. Obviously the example shows a situation that is a bug. It should pop
up at runtime of course. :-)
What I'm wondering is why the *call *of the method is not stopped. I'm
obviously accessing code that I'm not supposed to.
But for that to work the appserver would have to hook into the
classloading and either enforce the semantics, or weave in checks before
each call that has some security annotations.
(To either give errors at load time or give errors at runtime)
But I might misunderstand you.
Well... I am kind of expecting it does *something* to enforce its own
security model. :-)
/*DISCLAIMER, I AM NOT AN EJB EXPERT*/
It's EJB, do you expect it to work in an intuitive way? ;-)
That's why I'm wondering why it doesn't intercept internal method calls
(due to bugs for instance) while it does intercept the interface calls.
My guess: Because it doesn't have any compiler plugin, it doesn't do
load-time verification and it doesn't do instrumentation.
Should I conclude this is the expected, as designed, behavior ? My question
really is just that: While counterintuitive (for me) is this the way it is
meant to work: only the remote method calls are secured. Not the
local/internal/... ones. Right ?
I think the general idea is to use the Java Security Manager for that. But
from what I've heard, the Java Security Manager is craptastic.
MY QUESTION: Is this the way it is meant to work ? If so, can somebody
direct me to a resource/article/... explaining this ?
MANY thanks !!!
Jan
==
*Consider the session bean*
@Session
@DenyAll
@DeclareRoles({god,mortal})
class Knowledge {
@PermitAll
public String commonKnowledge() {
String response = Belgian chocolate is best ! ;
response += secretKnowledge(); * call to this method is NOT
blocked for a mortal user !!*
return response;
}
@RolesAllowed({admin})
public String secretKnowledge() {
return The meaning of everything is 42;
}
}
When calling both methods with a mortal user, only the call to the
second method is blocked. The call to the first completes without error.
Although one would expect it to block too as it is accessing a method
requiring the god role. At first sight, only the very first method call
is
guarded. It's on GlassFish 3.1 btw...
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Re: [The Java Posse] EJB security semantics ?
On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Luís Miranda luis.mira...@fastmail.fmwrote: Jan, On 2010/04/26, at 12:56, Jan Goyvaerts wrote: On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 13:47, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: Well... I am kind of expecting it does *something* to enforce its own security model. :-) That's why I'm wondering why it doesn't intercept internal method calls (due to bugs for instance) while it does intercept the interface calls. Should I conclude this is the expected, as designed, behavior ? My question really is just that: While counterintuitive (for me) is this the way it is meant to work: only the remote method calls are secured. Not the local/internal/... ones. Right ? I think this behaviour is mostly a side-effect of how the app servers generally implement security (by using a proxy/interceptor chain). Generally a proxy is not able to intercept self-invocation. I've had a quick glance at the EJB specification and it isn't terribly specific about what is the expected behaviour in this case. From section 17.1 of the EJB 3.0 spec: At runtime, a client will be allowed to invoke a business method only if the principal associated with the client call has been assigned by the Deployer to have at least one security role that is allowed to invoke the business method or if the Bean Provider or Application Assembler has specified that security authorization is not to be checked for the method (i.e., that all roles, including any unauthenticated roles, are permitted). See Section 17.3.2. The language used (a client will be allowed...) suggests that the self-invocation case is not covered within the spec. Since it's not in the spec, it's bound to be container-dependent as well, which may or may not be a problem for you. I would suggest that you add a programmatic security check at the start of the relevant methods, using the method isCallerInRole(String) from the interface javax.ejb.EJBContext. It's ugly, but guaranteed to work. :) I guess you could also use AOP to intercept and surround all calls to protected methods with a isCallerInRole Luís Miranda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] The 'Thoroughly Modern' Development Environment From Hell
, and the learning curve is endless. I'm looking for -sensible - ideas on how to clean all this up. What technologies to drop or swap and how best to create a complete integrated development environment (in the non-eclipse/NetBeans sense). Any suggestions welcome. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- - Jo -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Apple forbids for the iPhone even tools that auto-generate ObjC
So how do you determine the source of the source? On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 6:27 PM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I've just received this, and I've only got a reference to an italian website, but I think it should be easy to confirm with an international source. Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited). http://www.theapplelounge.com/news/iphone-os-4-vieta-applicazioni-flash-cs5/ http://www.theapplelounge.com/news/iphone-os-4-vieta-applicazioni-flash-cs5/ This clearly prevents any workaround from Adobe, that thought about a tool to auto-translate Flash stuff into ObjC. But also prevents from using various other tools that allowed to write code e.g. in Java that produced ObjC. I don't think anybody has ever reached these levels of paranoia seen in Apple. It's even embarrassing. - -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAku/VWkACgkQeDweFqgUGxeLJQCeNLZNuw9/7Eg2QDhcKu7Rk3pY y7EAn17XsBnU/nQRE82nboI7Iy2g5zLZ =mZ69 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Apple forbids for the iPhone even tools that auto-generate ObjC
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Steven Siebert smsi...@gmail.com wrote: Programming forensics ( http://victoria.tc.ca/int-grps/books/techrev/fp1syl.htm), perhaps? Seems like an awful amount of work ($$) to go through just to block innovation. Apple wouldn't be that evil...would they? =) Is programming by code monkey also a code generation tool? On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: So how do you determine the source of the source? On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 6:27 PM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I've just received this, and I've only got a reference to an italian website, but I think it should be easy to confirm with an international source. Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited). http://www.theapplelounge.com/news/iphone-os-4-vieta-applicazioni-flash-cs5/ http://www.theapplelounge.com/news/iphone-os-4-vieta-applicazioni-flash-cs5/ This clearly prevents any workaround from Adobe, that thought about a tool to auto-translate Flash stuff into ObjC. But also prevents from using various other tools that allowed to write code e.g. in Java that produced ObjC. I don't think anybody has ever reached these levels of paranoia seen in Apple. It's even embarrassing. - -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.14 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAku/VWkACgkQeDweFqgUGxeLJQCeNLZNuw9/7Eg2QDhcKu7Rk3pY y7EAn17XsBnU/nQRE82nboI7Iy2g5zLZ =mZ69 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Software Patents and Joe bashing
On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Scott Melton scott_rides_ag...@yahoo.comwrote: Not knowing much about anyone making the decisions(other than they are human, most of them), simply greedy, applied to this complex problem, would be an over simplification. A component of the problem? Sure. Assuming they are more knowledgeable about patent law than I am is a given. I can only hope that the process involves experts in the field they are ruling over with some system of checks and balances. A false hope maybe. If so then that is part of the process that is broken. The free market economic model is a lousy one, but it is the best by far. That sentence doesn't make sense. The very purpose of patent law is to reduce freedom in the market. A patent is a virtual monopoly, reducing manufacturing competition and process efficiency. Government intrusion on this model is a rarely helpful yet necessary weevil. Caution should be to limit it where ever possible. Opinion sent from my ASS phone. --- On *Thu, 4/8/10, Mark Volkmann r.mark.volkm...@gmail.com* wrote: From: Mark Volkmann r.mark.volkm...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [The Java Posse] Software Patents and Joe bashing To: javaposse@googlegroups.com Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 10:49 AM On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Scott Melton scott_rides_ag...@yahoo.comhttp://mc/compose?to=scott_rides_ag...@yahoo.com wrote: In a free and open society it is easy to find fault in complicated systems, just as it is easy to have a bias, pick sides and misrepresent the facts. One example in this thread, I may be wrong, but I think there is good reason for simplifying the patent granting process from who invented it first(which can be very difficult and costly to prove) to who filed first. Is the change a choice between the lesser of two weavels? Certainly. Infinitely more knowledgeable people than I made the decision. I will side with them until I become a patent lawyer or become so well informed that I can pass judgment on this complicated system. Why do you assume the people responsible for our current patent system are more knowledgeable than you rather than simply more greedy? -- R. Mark Volkmann Object Computing, Inc. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Software Patents
On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 12:13 AM, Scott Melton scott_rides_ag...@yahoo.comwrote: No worries. That's just a flippant saying to reflect that the free market model is riddled with problems and yet it is the best model out there, IMHO. Free beer is good, but yes, the freedom for me as an individual to spend my time the way I see fit or lack of freedom to take advantage of someone's work without compensating him for it. Maybe our understanding of a (general) free market model is different? I would agree with your examples, in general, even though specifically I'd dispute most of them. The cave man who invented fire had a patent and was better off than his fireless buddies for a time. His patent was if someone tried to steal his property he would kill them. He had a monopoly punishable by death. I bet he got all the hot cave women... You have evidence it was a sole individual who harnessed fire? In the absolute, I would agree that patents are not absolutely necessary for innovation. Some people would do it just for the sake of doing it. Most would not. Is this fact or belief? Would you agree that patents and property rights greatly accelerate the rate of innovations, accelerating the growth of a free market economy? No, I wouldn't, I have yet to see proof of this, on the contrary I see a lot of innovation in the Open Source Community, and the Apache V2 license, that gives you permission to make money off of my work without compensating me for it, seems to be heavily used. Why would I would I work nights and weekends to come up with a solution to a real world problem if I knew that as soon as I did I received nothing for it? Because you have your reasons? You actually enjoy solving problems? You want to help people? The answer is I would not. I would do something where I would get rewarded instead. So getting a kick out of solving a hard problem, or helping other people isn't rewarding enough for you, but I promise you, there are a lot of people out there who have their reasons to innovate without demanding monopolies. Camp, fish, raise kids, work a few extra hours for that new toy money, you get the picture. Interestingly only the working extra part actually gave you a monetary reward, perhaps you see that there can be a personal value in charity work, or plain old hobbyism. Why would a pharmaceutical company spend millions on researching a new cancer drug if they knew they were just throwing money out the window? I don't know about you, but atleast in the country I live, a big chunk of the money that goes into pharmaceutical research is supplied by the government, so basically taxes are used to finance it. And I think we can agree on that the government has a lot to gain by lowering costs for cancer treatment and loss of taxes because people are ill and cannot work. If they had to turn over the results to the market where their competitors, without investing millions, could turn around and use that knowledge against them? You're basically saying that something like Android cannot work, since there are multiple competing suppliers that use the same knowledge? Out of the goodness of their own humanity? I think not. People are going to randomly create things things that make their life easier or better. A patent(in a perfect world) helps motivate someone or business by ensuring that their investment in time and money will be a good one. I believe you must have some form of this in a free market economy. Yes it may be riddled with problems, yes at times it impedes growth, but without it I would argue that a free market economy would fail. Sort of a two steps forward, one step back approach as apposed to a very small baby step forward. What I am saying is that as a member of society, a citizen, I want to see the research that says that it's worth for me to pay for upholding monopolies by approving of patent law. And if it turns out to be not feasible, we should change it. --- On *Thu, 4/8/10, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com* wrote: From: Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [The Java Posse] Software Patents To: javaposse@googlegroups.com Date: Thursday, April 8, 2010, 3:12 PM Oh, I apologize, I meant this: The free market economic model is a lousy one, but it is the best by far. That sentence doesn't make sense. Connecting free markets with patents (artificial constraints) doesn't make sense. Because I'm going out on a limb here and think it's free as in freedom and not in beer? This will be a vry long discussion, but let's agree on that we got the wheel, the fire, the agriculture and roads and clothes and a lot more without any patents. So, saying that patents are needed to fuel innovation is simply not true. On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Scott Melton scott_rides_ag...@yahoo.comhttp://mc/compose?to=scott_rides_ag...@yahoo.com wrote: All of those sentences make sense to me
Re: [The Java Posse] software patents
wohooo! On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 4:11 PM, phil.swen...@gmail.com phil.swen...@gmail.com wrote: There is a supreme court case that has already been heard on business method patents. Some think if the Supreme Court finds that business method patents aren't valid all software patents are out the window: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Bilski This blog (Brad Feld, he's a venture capitalist) is a good source for the anti-software patent movement: http://www.feld.com/wp/archives/tag/patents -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] This is why I love Android
On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote: Every time I see a major changelog for one of the community ROM's, I'm reaffirmed in my belief that Android is the way to go: http://github.com/cyanogen/android_vendor_cyanogen/blob/eclair/CHANGELOG While normal people can just roll with the official stuff, geeks and people who enjoys living on the edge can turn to the community for gratification. Not entirely unlike how things work in the Java world at large. Wow. And that's intended for G1,G2,Droid and N1? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: This is why I love Android
On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 11:36 AM, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote: And that's intended for G1,G2,Droid and N1? @cyanogen maintains CyanogenMod ROM builds for G2 (CM 4.2.14) and N1 (CM 5.0.5). Another downstream AOSP dev @koush maintains it for the Droid: http://forum.cyanogenmod.com/ I think the G1 is simply too old, not enough internal memory for these modern ROM's. CM is running both on my wife's G2 and my own N1, there are lots of other ROM's but I happen to like the speed of CM and the fact that you get OTA updates. Alright, so 5.0.x is N1 only. Shame, so now I need to toss my G2 and get a new cell :/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: This is why I love Android
On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote: Alright, so 5.0.x is N1 only. Shame, so now I need to toss my G2 and get a new cell :/ Depends on your needs I guess. N1 has vastly superior hardware (1GHz Cortex-A8 level CPU with full FPU, OpenGL ES 2.0, 600MHz DSP, 2.5 I'd really like one with A9 instead though. times more pixels etc.) so some things from CyanogenMod just doesn't work or makes sense on the G2. It will still spark some new life into the stock Android 1.5 ROM though due to various optimizations and back- ports! Android is also slated to get a JIT this year - so expect a 3x performance boost in many places from just that. I already tried the backported JIT (Dusted Donuts) but it really ate a buttload of memory, and induced swapping, so wasn't a good fit for the voda G2. I'd really like to go for a model with physical keyboard though. Perhaps Moto Shadow? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Getting started with Scala
On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 7:13 PM, Kfir Shay kfir.s...@gmail.com wrote: ummm I think you got it wrong they are two distinct books yet Programming in Scala is the one written by Martin Odersky/Lex Spook/Bill Lex Spook? The CIA guy? On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com wrote: Just to avoid any future confusion... Programming Scala and Programming IN Scala are distinct books. Programming Scala is the original one by Martin Odersky/Lex Spook/Bill Venners Programming in Scala is the one available online. On 16 March 2010 17:39, Kfir Shay kfir.s...@gmail.com wrote: In terms of books, I believe this is the definitive resource at this point - http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Scala-Comprehensive-Step-step/dp/0981531601/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8s=booksqid=1268761112sr=8-1 On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Rakesh rakesh.mailgro...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, going on a Scala course in June but wanted to get started now. Any advice? Good tutorials, quick start guides, best IDE, best books, etc. R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Kevin Wright mail/google talk: kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com wave: kev.lee.wri...@googlewave.com skype: kev.lee.wright twitter: @thecoda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Code Bubbles: A really weird new IDE. (Posse: Interview this guy!)
I'd love to have it do Scala... On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Peter Becker peter.becker...@gmail.comwrote: On 11/03/10 21:56, Jo Voordeckers wrote: On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Peter Becker peter.becker...@gmail.comwrote: Did anyone else get the impression this is written in Swing? The code in the editors had plenty of JPanels over it and if these guys are anything like me they demo on their own code base :-) Apparently it's built on top of the Eclipse platform, this doesn't mean it's not Swing, but more likely SWT. I should have probably read something instead of just watching the video :-) Eclipse makes sense -- after all you could reuse major parts of the JDT. I wonder what code they were looking at then. Peter -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Code Bubbles: A really weird new IDE. (Posse: Interview this guy!)
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote: Did anyone else get the impression this is written in Swing? The code in the editors had plenty of JPanels over it and if these guys are anything like me they demo on their own code base :-) Not at all, it looks much too pretty and responsive at the same time, I suspect it's an Eclipse plugin. On another note, booss, I need a bigger monitor! I use a 40 monitor Next upgrade will probably be 52 ;) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Code Bubbles: A really weird new IDE. (Posse: Interview this guy!)
group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Robert Casto www.IWantFreeShipping.com Find Amazon Filler Items easily! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Code Bubbles: A really weird new IDE. (Posse: Interview this guy!)
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:34 PM, Peter Becker peter.becker...@gmail.comwrote: On 11/03/10 22:21, Viktor Klang wrote: On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.comwrote: Did anyone else get the impression this is written in Swing? The code in the editors had plenty of JPanels over it and if these guys are anything like me they demo on their own code base :-) Not at all, it looks much too pretty and responsive at the same time, I suspect it's an Eclipse plugin. On another note, booss, I need a bigger monitor! I use a 40 monitor Next upgrade will probably be 52 ;) You just need a 400 dpi screen and good glasses. A microscope might be a better fit ;) Peter -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Code Bubbles: A really weird new IDE. (Posse: Interview this guy!)
yet, but that looks like a fantastic debugger!) I know discussions about Why are code editors still a glorified dumb terminal show up from time to time and this is certainly something new. There isn't a download yet; more info is here: http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/acb/codebubbles_site.htm I wouldn't mind seeing an interview of Andrew Bragdon about this :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+ unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Johannes Thönes johannes.thoenes[at]googlemail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+ unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] IT policies of large corporations - what is normal?
On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 6:16 AM, Lloyd Meinholz meinh...@javabilities.comwrote: I'm really not trying to troll, but... Less ability to fix your own problem (jdk 1.6) on a mac than on Linux though. Of course, and if it's a hardware problem you probably can't fix it anyway... Lloyd On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Robert Casto casto.rob...@gmail.comwrote: Just a joke. I doubt any big companies, other than Apple, are using Macs for development. Some companies I have worked for don't care what you use. If you use a Mac though, you are completely on your own but I fail to see that as a deterrent. Sure, basically what that means is that you get the possibility to fix your problems right away instead of having to wait for your machine to be fixed by local IT maintenance. On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Kfir Shay kfir.s...@gmail.com wrote: Robert you might have said that as a joke but all the startups I have been part of were 100% Mac for developers. On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 3:22 PM, Robert Casto casto.rob...@gmail.com wrote: They must have all been Mac users. On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Kerry Sainsbury ke...@fidelma.com wrote: It's a fairly standard list, although you'll often see people being forced to use IE6. Some of these restrictions need to be relaxed for developers, and they usually are in my experience. My favourite restriction was one corporate that had blocked the use of the right-mouse button. Beat that! Cheers Kerry On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 9:24 AM, phil.swen...@gmail.com phil.swen...@gmail.com wrote: I am curious... I work for a large software vendor and our policies are: -windows only (XP) -outside IM is banned (we have internal jabber server) -mandatory software that tracks every piece of software installed on your machine -manual proxy that tracks every outgoing web url (no banned urls tho) -skype is strictly forbidden -no use of SaaS software for company information -virus checker on every machine, including servers (kills performance on builds) -encrypted harddrives -itunes is banned -VPN policy forces all traffic to be routed over internet The reasons behind this are supposedly that the company must track all information for legal purposes. So I'm curious - do companies like Google, Oracle, Microsoft, Intel have policies like this? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Robert Casto www.IWantFreeShipping.com Find Amazon Filler Items easily! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Robert Casto www.IWantFreeShipping.com Find Amazon Filler Items easily! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo
Re: [The Java Posse] java server app of the week suggesion - Cassandra
In Akka (www.akkasource.org) we have a Cassandra backend for our persistence API as well as a DSLish Scala coating over the Thrift Java interface. (supporting connection pooling etc) http://doc.akkasource.org/persistence All in all Cassandra is an interesting product with impressive capabilities being just at version 0.5.1! On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 11:36 PM, Michael Neale michael.ne...@gmail.comwrote: Cassandra - the non SQL distributed database. Recently twitter spoke about how they switched onto it (from heavily sharded MySQL). Note that it originated at facebook. So we have 2 of the biggest (and probably most important) social network platforms of our times depending on it now, and it is written in java - I guess there is life in the old JVM yet for systems programming. http://incubator.apache.org/cassandra/ http://nosql.mypopescu.com/post/407159447/cassandra-twitter-an-interview-with-ryan-king Would love to hear from people who use it/have played with it etc.. (it seems in most use cases I hear, the clients are non java apps - using Thrift). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: software engineering ideas can implement by JAVA
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Christian Catchpole christ...@catchpole.net wrote: i've always thought you could make a program called PhotoCrop. All it does it crop photos. But if you make it look similar to photoshop you can charge top dollar when people get confused. How about it shows photos of different crops instead? Cater to the farm-ville market. On Mar 1, 6:10 am, Bayan baya...@gmail.com wrote: thanx all, what about this ideas: photo editor: build project include almost all functions and algorithms can i use it for improve images. motion detection program for camer security system: implementation this idea by comparing background pic and new pic every time cycle after improving pics -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: IT policies of large corporations - what is normal?
I believe the main problem is that very few have actually taken the time to sit down and discuss what the needs are, what the purpose is, how to measure if the solution is aligned with the needs and the risks associated with strictness vs. nonstrictness. I fully understand the difficulty in measuring the soft values, but we're people, working with other people, and failing to realize that will make for very poor understanding of needs, benefits and costs. On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Robert Casto casto.rob...@gmail.com wrote: You are right but this is a hard sell in many corporations. Many companies do not have the manpower or strong enough IT people to implement different sets of rules and so it is easier to dictate policy and make everyone follow it. Luckily I work somewhere where I can use whatever tool I find best to get the job done. The machine is monitored, updated, scanned, and everything else. But at least I can get the tools I need. I think that is what most developers want. Some flexibility to get the best tool or at least one they are familiar with so they can be productive. Even chefs use many different types of knives to get the job done. You don't just give them a paring knife and tell them to make due. On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com wrote: This is about developer access to machines, not corporate droids in general. Computers and the internet are very much the tools of our trade, tools that are blunted and crippled by these security policies. The real problem is not the policies themselves, but their indiscriminate application. For example, when I was at primary school we had safe scissors that weren't especially sharp and had rounded ends. This made a great deal of sense, given that children and sharp things are not the best of combinations; it was policy that these type of scissors were used throughout the school. However, the blanket ban on sharp objects didn't extend to the kitchens, because it's accepted that knives are the tools-in-trade for chefs and cooks. The very attribute that makes a knife dangerous is the same thing that makes it useful. When used at a developer level then computers are the same. Their main strength lies in broad versatility and a capacity to be true general-purpose devices, why should this capability be prevented for professionals? Carried to its illogical conclusion, a policy based on safety to the exclusion of all else would have us all working on ipads, nothing but jelly and tapioca in the canteens, and the lawyers driving such policy should be deprived of their books for risk of paper cuts. On 1 March 2010 14:11, Wildam Martin mwil...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 15:06, Phil p...@haigh-family.com wrote: Personally I'm inclined to side with them - non IT-Savvy people do need protecting from themselves (once took a call from somebody complaining he couldn't access the company intranet from his WiFi enabled laptop, turned out he was in his car 20 miles from the network, no 3G data connection or anything - no, really). What about a 2-day crash-course of general IT knowhow for every new employee? No technical aid beats good education. -- Martin Wildam -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Kevin Wright mail/google talk: kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com wave: kev.lee.wri...@googlewave.com skype: kev.lee.wright twitter: @thecoda -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Robert Casto www.IWantFreeShipping.com Find Amazon Filler Items easily! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: IT policies of large corporations - what is normal?
On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Robert Casto casto.rob...@gmail.com wrote: The need and purpose for many of these decisions is to avoid legal trouble. It is hard to argue with management when lawyers are telling them what they should do to avoid legal issues. There is no flexibility when decisions are based on that kind of information. I've known people using Notepad to create files because they couldn't get permission to install a tool. So the problem is that they hire people they don't trust. No filter in the world (aside from death) can prevent someone from saying the wrong thing. Sure there's always a need for security, but the solution for most of it is cultural, not technical. If I were a professional carpenter, and I was hired to build a house, and I was forced to work with one arm tied behind my back and a wooden hammer, I simply wouldn't take the job. If I were a doctor, and I was hired to heal someone, and they wanted to force me to use steak knives instead of scalpels, I simply wouldn't take the job. Part of being a professional is having the integrity, to be prepared to walk away when someone wants you to be unprofessional rather than making a poor job. And I truly believe, if your employer treats you with respect for your professionalism, you will also respect your employer. On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: I believe the main problem is that very few have actually taken the time to sit down and discuss what the needs are, what the purpose is, how to measure if the solution is aligned with the needs and the risks associated with strictness vs. nonstrictness. I fully understand the difficulty in measuring the soft values, but we're people, working with other people, and failing to realize that will make for very poor understanding of needs, benefits and costs. On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Robert Casto casto.rob...@gmail.comwrote: You are right but this is a hard sell in many corporations. Many companies do not have the manpower or strong enough IT people to implement different sets of rules and so it is easier to dictate policy and make everyone follow it. Luckily I work somewhere where I can use whatever tool I find best to get the job done. The machine is monitored, updated, scanned, and everything else. But at least I can get the tools I need. I think that is what most developers want. Some flexibility to get the best tool or at least one they are familiar with so they can be productive. Even chefs use many different types of knives to get the job done. You don't just give them a paring knife and tell them to make due. On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Kevin Wright kev.lee.wri...@googlemail.com wrote: This is about developer access to machines, not corporate droids in general. Computers and the internet are very much the tools of our trade, tools that are blunted and crippled by these security policies. The real problem is not the policies themselves, but their indiscriminate application. For example, when I was at primary school we had safe scissors that weren't especially sharp and had rounded ends. This made a great deal of sense, given that children and sharp things are not the best of combinations; it was policy that these type of scissors were used throughout the school. However, the blanket ban on sharp objects didn't extend to the kitchens, because it's accepted that knives are the tools-in-trade for chefs and cooks. The very attribute that makes a knife dangerous is the same thing that makes it useful. When used at a developer level then computers are the same. Their main strength lies in broad versatility and a capacity to be true general-purpose devices, why should this capability be prevented for professionals? Carried to its illogical conclusion, a policy based on safety to the exclusion of all else would have us all working on ipads, nothing but jelly and tapioca in the canteens, and the lawyers driving such policy should be deprived of their books for risk of paper cuts. On 1 March 2010 14:11, Wildam Martin mwil...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 15:06, Phil p...@haigh-family.com wrote: Personally I'm inclined to side with them - non IT-Savvy people do need protecting from themselves (once took a call from somebody complaining he couldn't access the company intranet from his WiFi enabled laptop, turned out he was in his car 20 miles from the network, no 3G data connection or anything - no, really). What about a 2-day crash-course of general IT knowhow for every new employee? No technical aid beats good education. -- Martin Wildam -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: FCM in bytecode, what's next? (ep 296)
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Fabrizio Giudici fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it wrote: On 2/11/10 16:31 , Reinier Zwitserloot wrote: Here you go: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk7/features/ I know it - but it's not complete. For instance it doesn't mention: 1. that neither JSR-295 (BeansBinding) will be in Java 7 2. the fate of JSR-310 (Dates and Times) 3. anything of generics reification 4. first-class properties 5. other stuff that is mentioned in this old and updated page, http://tech.puredanger.com/java7/ just to cite the few examples that come in my mind in 30 secs... Sigh, perhaps Scala or Groovy(++?) really is the road of the future. -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect, Project Manager Tidalwave s.a.s. - We make Java work. Everywhere. java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/people fabrizio.giud...@tidalwave.it -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to measure lines of code in Java
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 11:07 PM, jr paulojrmore...@gmail.com wrote: But lets assume you are the head of an IT department, you have several development teams working under you, and you want to define a set of metrics that will allow you to measure the productivity of the different teams (and lets assume all teams develop in the same language). What approach would you take? I understand that measuring lines of code is misleading, but I fail to come up with a good solid alternative. One can say that the best metric is to have each team lead closely monitoring the developers on her/his team, but then we know that each team lead will report at her/his own convenience. Use Scrum and track velocity or use Kanban and track lead-time -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to measure lines of code in Java
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 12:21 AM, Paul King paul.king.as...@gmail.comwrote: Yes, I would track features implemented and if I was serious about the whole thing some kind of metrics around maintenance not just development. Interesting that you mention that, Poor maintenance will kill productivity, which will drop velocity/lead-time, so it's kind of implicitly measured. Cheers, Cheers, Paul. On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:15 AM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 11:07 PM, jr paulojrmore...@gmail.com wrote: But lets assume you are the head of an IT department, you have several development teams working under you, and you want to define a set of metrics that will allow you to measure the productivity of the different teams (and lets assume all teams develop in the same language). What approach would you take? I understand that measuring lines of code is misleading, but I fail to come up with a good solid alternative. One can say that the best metric is to have each team lead closely monitoring the developers on her/his team, but then we know that each team lead will report at her/his own convenience. Use Scrum and track velocity or use Kanban and track lead-time -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: How to measure lines of code in Java
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 9:14 PM, Steven Herod steven.he...@gmail.com wrote: Oh bullshit (re: the article) I've seen plenty of cheap stuff thrown together that's perfectly fit for purpose - once crap reaches steady state, its doesn't matter how its written, as long as it doesn't need to change. And plenty of software systems can be written and never need to change for the life of the business/problem. This is another Programming is an art form, respect my art you un- greatful bastards article. :) *laughs* Of course there are times when someone threw something together and it needn't be changed for the rest of eternity. The problem is to know when that's the case. What I've observed though that there's a discrepancy between the everchanging needs of the users and the willingness of IT to make changes in software. *runs for the hills* On Feb 2, 7:18 pm, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: On the topic of LoC, please read Uncle Bob's latest:http://bit.ly/cYQlvB On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 6:43 AM, Reinier Zwitserloot reini...@gmail.com wrote: The usual strategy here is to get the dev team together, and decide to spend 1 day (or 1 week, whatever the management cycle is), spending it only on fixing bugs and refactoring so that every single soul on the team reports a negative number for the kloc delta. Act oblivious and wait for the inevitable 'invitation' to management. Then, carefully explain that development is a little more complicated than this, and make sure you're ready with 'before' / 'after' notes, showing how previously horrible, inflexible, unmaintainable crap has been turned into lean, mean, and very pretty code. Explain that if management continues to oversimplify, that you see no other option than to never ever make such improvements again as it would actively count against your 'productivity', and let management figure out that this automatically results in a code base that is going to grind to a complete halt in a year or two. On Feb 2, 2:06 am, Christian Catchpole christ...@catchpole.net wrote: I made the mistake once of telling management that, yes, i could count lines of code and classes but it was a terrible indicator. Eventually they used it against us. I should have said no from the start. Just say no. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com javaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups .com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Certifications
Prepare to bring the bigger CC ;) On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 7:57 PM, Steve Sobczak sss...@gmail.com wrote: Is there any word out on the branding or titles of our former and future Sun certifications/certificates/paths/prices? I feel dated already with my Sun certificates. I guess red is the new style for this decade. Steve Sobczak -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Cool iPhone - iPad adaptor
I'm hoping for a similar product based on Tegra2 + Android, perhaps the Eee Pad can be a savior? I really want better connectivity (miniUSB + mini DispayPort), more openness and phone capabilities. On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Casper Bang casper.b...@gmail.com wrote: Have you guys seen the cool adapter used to synchronize the iPhone with the iPad? http://bit.ly/iPhoneiPadAdapter The A4 is said to be based on a licensed ARM Cortex A9 architecture as used in the Nvidia Tegra 2 etc., so not really totally new stuff. And the DPI of 132 seems a bit low if you are used to eInk or even the 230 DPI screen of modern OLED phones. But cool device, even if I not sure what to do with one myself. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Akka - the Actor Kernel: Akkasource.org Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Chuck Norris is a Java developer
Chuck Norris codes in unary. On Jan 24, 2010 7:45 AM, Christian Catchpole christ...@catchpole.net wrote: Chuck Norris uses punch cards -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Chuck Norris is a Java developer
In Chuck Norris' Scala code, the argument is _always_ implicit, and deadly. Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Blog: klangism.blogspot.com Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang Code: github.com/viktorklang On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Steven Herod steven.he...@gmail.comwrote: I'm certain Chuck Norris uses Scala. On Jan 24, 8:39 pm, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: Chuck Norris codes in unary. On Jan 24, 2010 7:45 AM, Christian Catchpole christ...@catchpole.net wrote: Chuck Norris uses punch cards -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
Re: [The Java Posse] Re: Chuck Norris is a Java developer
Chuck Norris doesn't catch exceptions, he throws them back. Viktor Klang | A complex system that works is invariably | found to have evolved from a simple system | that worked. - John Gall Blog: klangism.blogspot.com Twttr: twitter.com/viktorklang Code: github.com/viktorklang On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 6:13 AM, Christian Catchpole christ...@catchpole.net wrote: Chucks Norris's code isn't compiled just in time, its compiled without warning. Chucks Norris's code doesn't accept input. It knows what to do. Chucks Norris's code doesn't have the option to Quit. Chucks Norris's JVM doesn't collect garbage, it takes out the trash. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comjavaposse%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups The Java Posse group. To post to this group, send email to javapo...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to javaposse+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
