RE: Does Indian tradition approve of homosexuality?

2009-07-08 Thread Madhu Prasad | Susmita Dasgupta


Reading `Hindu' as 'Indian', and vice versa, denies the reality of the 
sub-continent's civilizational and intellectual history. The dominance of non- 
Brahmanical Buddhist principles and practice for at least three centuries is 
inextricably linked with our socio-cultural practice. Further, the long history 
of exchange with other religio-cultural traditions like Islam and christianity, 
has contributed integrally to our culture. The 19th C use of the word `hindu' 
to refer to Brahminism, and then to conflate this with the term `Indian' is a 
British colonial construct, i.e. a part of the Macaulayian legacy you so 
rightly reject.

Are alternative personal, social, cultural and sexual options to be `ignored' 
as 'not worthy of public discussion' because they are in your so-called 
majoritarian, mainstream viewpoint, `marginal'? This fundamentally undemocratic 
perspective can never countenance reform or change, which by definition arises 
in opposition to prevalent mainstream ideas.

Patriarchy was certainly the dominant form extolled in the ramayana, in 
Brahmanical texts and in other traditions over centuries; however, it cannot be 
ignored that the sufi and bhakti traditions were a major form of popular 
opposition to it. Uncritically upholding patriarchal norms of moral conduct in 
this day and age reveals a closed mindset.

The discourse of rights for Gays etc., is a contemporary discourse and requires 
both an openness and a focus that the above positions deny in principal. The 
discourse is one of equal rights, freedom of choice and expression of one's 
life, on the one hand and on the other, the nature of contemporary law and what 
it defines as criminality, in providing legal protection of these rights. The 
`closet' approach that you adovocate as being the Hindu approach - i wont go 
into the merits of that claim! - seeks to silence rather than engage with 
diversity in order to understand that the so called `other' is in fact `one of 
us' with similar rights and concerns.

Madhu Prasad




To my mind, there are two major areas of concern in the present communication 
and which are as follows:

Firstly, what is the philosophy and purpose of the Indian Law?
Secondly, how does one address the divergence between law and practice?

We have to understand that the purpose and philosophy of the Indian law is to 
modernise the Indian tradition. While a modernising India decided not to part 
with the humanist aspects of tradition, namely upholding family ties, 
celebrating the purity of certain emotional relationships and so on, what it 
really attacked was the various forms of unfreedom that did not allow 
individuals to fully utilize their talents and rights as individuals.

Were it not for our pursuit of modernity, women would still be burnt as Sati, 
untouchables would be beaten up by sticks and lower castes would not be allowed 
entry into public spaces. That still happens in India but it happens without 
the sanction of the law and are thus illegitimate. In traditional India such 
things would have been legitimate but in today's India, these are illegal.

The idea of law in India is meant to provide freedom to individuals 
irrespective of their caste, creed and community. Hence, matters that arise out 
of choice of individuals are to be free of the law. This is the sole point 
where the Indian law differs from the Western law because the latter is a 
disciplining and a normalizing effort that draws from a disciplinarian and 
often fundamentalist Christian Churches.

Homosexuality is therefore free from law in India if it is between two 
consenting adults.
But it does not have the sanction to have the same institutional sanctity of a 
normal marriage. To my mind, it is the latter that the Delhi High Court 
Ruling has failed to challenge and I wish that it should be challenged.



Susmita Dasgupta
Economic Research Unit

Re: Does Indian tradition approve of homosexuality?

2009-07-08 Thread Maneshwar Nayak | Dr . Thakur
One must know that in this fast changing world, even the human values are also 
changing with the passage of time. But, however, one may argue that the Delhi 
High Court verdict on section 377 is a panacea for homosexuals. While one 
cannot and should not interfere in some one else's business, it should be 
admitted that homosexuality is unnatural. If we look at the nature and flora 
and fauna, there is nothing as homosexuality though all animals indulge in sex. 
Therefore, once Radhakrishnan wrote in his 'Hindu View of Life' that man is the 
only animal that drinks when he is not thirsty, eats when he is not hungry and 
indulges in sex all through the year. Homo sexuality is limited to satisfy 
their particular unnatural urge. Nothing beyond that, the Nature has produced 
opposite sex for pleasure and reproduction. The homosexuality satisfies only 
one part. Therefore it is a psychological problem. Therefore, there is no point 
in discussing and debating this issue. It should be buried and left to the 
people concerned.

Maneshwar Nayak




Reading `Hindu' as 'Indian', and vice versa, does not deny the reality of the 
sub-continentÂ’s civilization and intellectual history.

So-called non-Brahmanical Buddhist principles and practices are also part of 
vast hindu diaspora.
The exchange with other religio-cultural traditions like Islam and Christianity 
does not change the core of our culture.

Those who say `hindu' refer to Brahminism are only trying to divide Hindu 
society. Indian is a British colonial construct, i.e. a part of the Macaulayian 
legacy needs rejection.

The question of alternative personal, social, cultural and sexual options has 
not direct relation to the above context and maybe  `ignored' and 'not worthy 
of public discussion' because they are in  fact,  mainstream viewpoint; it is 
not a matter of depriving rights of  `marginal'?

The Homos were in Hindu past too (Khajuraho and in Karnataka one may see that 
on the face of temples) but society is an evolving phenomenon and all be Hindu, 
Muslim, Christianity denounces that. Court cannot make civic ways; it has 
limitations and that should be known. It does not mean fundamentally 
undemocratic perspective.

Why you people are so much on Brahminical tag, was ram a Brahmin whom all 
revere as GOD and bhakti traditions has not opposed that Ram and Krishna. Sufis 
might have rejected Islamic obstinacy. Patriarchal  or Matriachal both norms of 
moral conduct are acceptable in Hindu ethos which is abalanced one.

True,” The discourse of rights for Gays etc., is a contemporary discourse and 
requires both an openness and a focus but defying social norms maybe 
individual's pleasure but not the way to say it is for  equal rights, freedom 
of choice and expression of one's life. If one says he loves being naked would 
you allow??

The nature of contemporary law and criminality, maybe changed but legalising it 
will open a Pandora' box.

Dr. Dhanakar Thakur