Re: [Qemu-devel] Re: [PATCH v2] virtio-blk physical block size
On 01/08/2010 05:40 PM, Christoph Hellwig wrote: Maybe we should pick one on image creation and then stick to it. For an image format we could write down this information in the image, but for a raw images that's impossible. The management system should remember it (like it remembers which images belong to which guest, and how to expose them). -- error compiling committee.c: too many arguments to function -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe kvm in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [Qemu-devel] Re: [PATCH v2] virtio-blk physical block size
On Tue, Jan 05, 2010 at 08:16:15PM +, Jamie Lokier wrote: It would be good if virtio relayed the backing device's basic topology hints, so: - If the backing dev is a real disk with 512-byte sectors, virtio should indicate 512-byte blocks to the guest. - If the backing dev is a real disk with 4096-byte sectors, virtio should indicate 4096-byte blocks to the guest. With databases and filesystems, if you care about data integrity: - If the backing dev is a real disk with 4096-byte sectors, or a file whose access is through a 4096-byte-per-page cache, virtio must indicate 4096-byte blocks otherwise guest journalling is not host-powerfail safe. You get the idea. If there is only one parameter, it really should be at least as large as the smallest unit which may be corrupted by writes when errors occur. It's not that easy. IDE only supports larger sectors sizes with the physical sector size attribute, not native larger sectors. While scsi does support it it's untypical and I would not expect the guests to not always get it right. So the best is to use the transport native way to express that we have larger sectors and expect the guest to do the right thing. I've done some work on the autodetection of the larger sector sizes a while ago. But now that people brought up migration I wonder if that makes sense - if we migrate from a 512 byte sector size disk to a 4096 byte sector size disk we can't simply change guest visible attributes. Maybe we should pick one on image creation and then stick to it. For an image format we could write down this information in the image, but for a raw images that's impossible. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe kvm in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [Qemu-devel] Re: [PATCH v2] virtio-blk physical block size
Avi Kivity wrote: On 01/05/2010 02:56 PM, Rusty Russell wrote: Those should be the same for any sane interface. They are for classical disk devices with larger block sizes (MO, s390 dasd) and also for the now appearing 4k sector scsi disks. But in the ide world people are concerned about dos/window legacy compatiblity so they came up with a nasty hack: - there is a physical block size as used by the disk internally (4k initially) - all the interfaces to the operating system still happen in the traditional 512 byte blocks to not break any existing assumptions - to make sure modern operating systems can optimize for the larger physical sectors the disks expose this size, too. - even worse disks can also have alignment hacks for the traditional DOS partitions tables, so that the 512 byte block zero might even have an offset into the first larger physical block. This is also exposed in the ATA identify information. All in all I don't think this mess is a good idea to replicate in virtio. Virtio by defintion requires virtualization aware guests, so we should just follow the SCSI way of larger real block sizes here. Yes. The current VIRTIO_BLK_F_BLK_SIZE says please use this block size. We haven't actually specified what happens if the guest doesn't, but the spec says must, and the Linux implementation does so AFAICT. If we want a soft size, we could add that as a separate feature. No - I agree with Christoph, there's no reason to use a 512/4096 monstrosity with virtio. It would be good if virtio relayed the backing device's basic topology hints, so: - If the backing dev is a real disk with 512-byte sectors, virtio should indicate 512-byte blocks to the guest. - If the backing dev is a real disk with 4096-byte sectors, virtio should indicate 4096-byte blocks to the guest. With databases and filesystems, if you care about data integrity: - If the backing dev is a real disk with 4096-byte sectors, or a file whose access is through a 4096-byte-per-page cache, virtio must indicate 4096-byte blocks otherwise guest journalling is not host-powerfail safe. You get the idea. If there is only one parameter, it really should be at least as large as the smallest unit which may be corrupted by writes when errors occur. -- Jamie -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe kvm in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [Qemu-devel] Re: [PATCH v2] virtio-blk physical block size
Avi Kivity wrote: Physical block size is the what the logical block size would have been is software didn't suck. In theory they should be the same, but since compatibility reaons clamp the logical block size to 512, they have to differ. A disk may have a physical block size of 4096 and emulate logical block size of 512 on top of that using read-modify-write. Or so I understand it. I think that's right, but a side effect is that if you get a power failure during the read-modify-write, bytes anywhere in 4096 sector may be incorrect, so journalling (etc.) needs to use 4096 byte blocks for data integrity, even though the drive emulates smaller writes. -- Jamie -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe kvm in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Re: [Qemu-devel] Re: [PATCH v2] virtio-blk physical block size
On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 01:38:51PM +1030, Rusty Russell wrote: I thought this was what I was doing, but I have shown over and over that I have no idea about block devices. Our current driver treats BLK_SIZE as the logical and physical size (see blk_queue_logical_block_size). I have no idea what logical vs. physical actually means. Anyone? Most importantly, is it some Linux-internal difference or a real I/O-visible distinction? Those should be the same for any sane interface. They are for classical disk devices with larger block sizes (MO, s390 dasd) and also for the now appearing 4k sector scsi disks. But in the ide world people are concerned about dos/window legacy compatiblity so they came up with a nasty hack: - there is a physical block size as used by the disk internally (4k initially) - all the interfaces to the operating system still happen in the traditional 512 byte blocks to not break any existing assumptions - to make sure modern operating systems can optimize for the larger physical sectors the disks expose this size, too. - even worse disks can also have alignment hacks for the traditional DOS partitions tables, so that the 512 byte block zero might even have an offset into the first larger physical block. This is also exposed in the ATA identify information. All in all I don't think this mess is a good idea to replicate in virtio. Virtio by defintion requires virtualization aware guests, so we should just follow the SCSI way of larger real block sizes here. Rusty. ---end quoted text--- -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line unsubscribe kvm in the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
